In every war whether it is about religion or greed or to over throw a despot both sides claim God is on their side. They put the symbol of the faith of solder who has died on his stone. Do the Gods really care about our petty wars? Doesn't taking a God of peace to war nullify him as a God of peace and makes him a God of war?

That only applies if your God is man-made. The real God isn't changed by the actions of humans. He may or may not care about wars, there are differing views, but just because you take your God of Peace to war doesn't mean he is now a God of war. I mean, after all he is God right? Not bound by the human limitations put on him by foolish people.

If there was a real god it would nullify all religion but the true one and eliminate the need for war.

Why does every person I talk to who doesn't believe in God think that God should play like a broom and clean up after the mess of mankind? Only someone who doesn't understand the concepts of HaShem would make such a statement about God. What your looking for isn't God, it's someone who will eliminate your need to be responsible for you and your actions.

oddly enough I agree here. now spread that thought out to all human actions. ( we may disagree with those actions but God has a clue )but why can't we do that ourselves ? and what if God doesn't care about worshipp or religion ?

the only thing that matters is the experience in the end. it's all we take with us. spiritual beings having a human experience.

In my opinion... Yes... Or rather, since you can't make a God(s) into anything, we do begin to define God(s) that way.

The central message should be peace, integrity, non-violence, simplicity (keeps greed and power abuse away) and equality.

However, my position or opinion isn't a popular one.

compassion , peace, tolerance, not looking the other way or defending dietys that clearly cause harm and teach harm , this in not peace it would not behave in that manner,.......Peace beneftis the ,most ..peace dosen't defend insane behaviors or canons, or dietys and call itself justified in this......

um... I'm trying to remember the last war I started... Sorry as I recall I have never started a war. As for taking responsibility for my actions... you are in no position to judge me because you don't know me. I sure as hell don't blame them on god or the devil, like a lot of religious, and mentally unstable people do (disclaimer I do not believe all religious people are mentally unstable) how can I I DON'T BELIEVE IN THEM!!!! Nice display of the typical holier than thou christian attitude.

I agree with this, we responsible for our actions. The Gods aren't there to clean up the messes we make. Unfortunately we don't do a very good job of it. Mother Earth is in a mess and it is our own doing. In my faith we free to do as we want as long as no one is harmed, but if you do harm you are responsible. There is no devil made me do it or I didn't it for the Gods. You are the one who must clean up the mess.
Bush, Osama bin Laden, and countless other jerks have enough mess it will take several generations to clean it up.

You're right Darkwind ... it is a mess and it's our own doing.

Of course, even though I'm a Christian, I've never believed that God dips his divine hand down and fixes all the crap we broke. It's our job to do that.

And as a Christian, I also believe in non-violence and peace... just as millions of others do (including other religions as well). Now if only others would jump on that bandwagon.

There's a plan and reason to all things. I used to believe the Christian view until a Jewish friend enlightened me to the Torah and now I follow the B'nei Noachide. Basically, all God wants is your love/relationship with him. Without that than your afterlife will be unpleasant (not necessarily hell.)



I am not a Christian I was merely saying that you think that God is obligated to fix all of our problems for us and I think that's wrong.


It will only take so long because of the will of the people. Rome wasn't built in a day but it could have been if those building had a greater heart for what they were doing. Succeeding is about inspiration and ability, it's about having confidence and a pure heart. The messes of Bush, Bin Lade, and "other countless jerks" could easily be solved if all people were willing to solve them. But the supporters of Sadaam want blood not peace, those who follow Bin Laden want America's downfall not peace. Americans don't care because they're too ignorant to notice. And honestly the whole fight between all the sides is pointless.

sorry I'm used to the christians telling me what I think. What I'm saying is how can I think god is obligated to fix our problems when I don't believe in god? therefore I am in agreement with you by default. We humans are the only one that can fix our problems as we are the only ones responsible for them.

Yes but you said "If there was a real god it would nullify all religion but the true one and eliminate the need for war." Your making it sound as if the responsibility of God (if he exists) is to take care of all our problems and keep us from doing stuff. Your basically saying that if there's a God he should be your servant and listen to you by eliminating your right to freedom and to choose. I think that is a terrible reason not to believe in God.

yes I believe there is a plan and reason for all things. even if I don't understand or agree or like it - in human form/ as a human being. I do think that a personal relationship in what manner is fitting for that person is all that needed. Afterlife unpleasant ? I'm not sure especially when I remember there is a plan and reason for all things.

Not necessarily, it is the people that corrupt the purpose of God, not God himself.

Well, I only recently abandoned the Christian view and I'm not really sure what the Bible says about the afterlife...I am looking into it though

How can a rabbi not live with doubt? The Bible itself is a book of doubt.
Arthur Hertzberg

The Bible is only a book of doubt to one who does not truly know HaShem. To those who know him it is wonderful. It's a beauty is in the eye of the beholder type thing. To those who don't know HaShem, his words and works mean nothing to you. To those who love and have a relationship with HaShem the Bible is a beautiful book.

The Bible as far as I can see is the same book no matter how you look at it. It is filled with a lot of war and killing. One confusing thing after God hands the 10 commandments to Moses, in which is written "Thou shall not kill" Moses fines his followers having a party and decides to kill them for it. Didn't God just say don't kill?

Does not a nation go to war in times of necessity? Thou shalt not murder is a good time to look at the difference between killing and murdering. If a soldier in war kills his enemy than it is more or less justified. If a pedophile murders his victim after raping her, than it is not justified. What God meant was, don't go around ruthlessly and pointlessly killing. Don't kill if you don't have to. In proverbs it lists the 7 sins God hates, one of which is shedding innocent blood. God doesn't like the shedding of innocent blood. However, in war innocent blood is not shed.

In other words you believe innocent blood is not shed in war? That means child are not killed in war? When the Israelites killed the Canaanites, they killed everyone, per Gods orders, every man, woman, child, and their animals. Were not the the women, children and animals innocent? Are the Iraqi insurgents justified in killing American solders?

To the first part of your post, I can only say that if God deemed them guilty of death, than they are guilty of death. I think the Iraqi insurgents are just as justified in their killings as we are. I have a view of war that it is pointless. Pointless things are number one on my list of deep hatreds for. I think that war is about mindset and mentality. You see, we bomb Iraq to get rid of their dictator. To the American we are helping them and making it a better place. But when you talk to an Iraqi, they are upset. For one, we've killed innocent people too in this war. Not to mention that Iraq was doing ok before we attacked it. It wasn't until we started meddling in their affairs that their country went into chaos. This would cause the courageous men of their country to fight. If people bombed America, people all over the nation (particularly men) would want to fight back. Same with Iraq. They are fighting for their cause, and we are fighting for ours. In truth the causes are the same (peace) or at least they should be. In my opinion, if Americans support our troops, and cheer their victories, I have no problem if Iraqis do so for their insurgents/troops because the whole war is pointless anyway.

I agree the Iraq war is pointless. It was up to the Iraqi people to get rid of their despot not Americans. But in the case of the Canaanites all they did was happen to be on land the Israelites thought had been deeded them by God. IMO this is a case were a people used their God to justify a mass killing of a people who were in the way of their goals.

They weren't using God. The land was promised to Abraham and his descendants by God. They were merely defending their land. Just like in '48 when the Jews took back "Palestine", it was because it is their land as given to them by God. You think that if enough Native Americans were left and they had the right weapons that they wouldn't seek to take back America?

I would mostly try to join up with the Native American cause I think most of them had a better culture than the Europeans. I would fit in better. God gave it to us, that is the excuse used by most people who take land by force. God is on our side. This just what I am talking about going to war with your God. If someone walks up into your yard and tells you to leave your house because he says God gave it to him. Would you give it to him?

If God gave Abraham Canaan why did he leave and go to Egypt during a famine seems if God want Abraham to live there he would make sure he could make a living there. Like it or not IMO I think it is the biggest land fraud in history. Just because my ancestors did wrong here in the US by taking land from Natives, doesn't make it ok for European Jews to take land and homes away from the native Palestinians and put them in refuge camps. If any one in the Middle East has a right and reason to fight it is the Palestinians. Just like the Native Americans fought the US Government for their land until their numbers became to small to fight on.

Sure, if he could prove God gave it to him .



Except that land belonged to the Israelis before the Babylonians ripped apart their country. Let's say that when the Europeans came here all the Natives went south to mexico. Then after a couple hundred years they had grown strong enough to take America back. They would have that right. The same with the Israelis and Palestinians.

Can Jews prove God gave Canaan to Abraham. Abraham was from Babylonian he suppose to have come from UR. The first people to live there were the Canaanites the Israelis took it from them. The Bible is really a poor source of history. What happen in American is irrelevant to the current situation in Palestine.

Of course they can prove it, it's in the Bible

COI. That is the ultimate mission of us non-believers-for man to be responsible for ourselves and our actions, duh .

I bet it wouldn't stand up in court of American law. Might make an interesting debate on it own.

Really? Than why is your view of what God should be a view of someone who would clean up man's messes. I always here "If there was a God, why do we still have war?" If you ask that question your basically saying that you want a God who is a big baby-sitter.


Well, Moses and the Israelites had just had a huge victory over one of the largest kingdoms at that time. And it was done by God which the Egyptians who were fond of mysticism and would let people know. So it would be safe to say that the Caananites knew about the Israelite God, decided not to leave Caanan anyway, and got wiped out because of it. That would be like Japan not surrendering after we asked them to. They didn't, and got nuked. We would have had full right to take over Japan at that time. We didn't because we would have no use for Japan except for military, which is how it's used anyway.

[quote name='Knight of Zion (COI)' date='Aug 10 2007, 04:40 AM' post='1820859']
Really? Than why is your view of what God should be a view of someone who would clean up man's messes. I always here "If there was a God, why do we still have war?" If you ask that question your basically saying that you want a God who is a big baby-sitter.


Well you claim he is our father right ? Well,what is the role of A GOOD FATHER ?

And you claim we are born of sin, right ? That makes us weak to start with. we are feeble,weak minded tragic creations according to your god so we need "tender loving care" and guidance-not threats and abuse.

According to the bible god is always cleaning up our messes by "killing us" anyways so what is your point ?

My point is that it's all very contradictory. If I were god I would be kinder and lend a helping hand (literally) when in need. I wouldn't send Satan in your house instead- to babysit and mislead you as a test.

True, we are sinners. As far as born that way, and all that, well I'm not sure as much as I used to be. These things are harder to find out with Judaism because sin and heaven and hell and Satan exist yes, but they hold a very very minimal role and what's more stressed is your relationship with God.

But in the case of the Israelites they went in and killed all the woman, children and animals as well as the men. The Canaanites only crime was they they had a different religion. I don't think it is safe to say they knew about the Abrahamic god. Its not like they had a radio or TV. Another thing is it wasn't an act of god that killed the Canaanites, it was the Israelites. God was just an excuse to justify mass murder.

So you don't think other nations communicated in those days? There was a 40 year period in between the Exodus and the arrival at Canaan. I sincerely doubt that in those 40 years the Egyptians neglected to tell people how they lost their army and their Pharoh to the Israeli God who opened the sea up and drowned them, but only after he caused Locusts, Flies, Frogs, Blood in the Water, Boils, Darkness, Flaming Hail, Dying Cattle, and the Death of the first born sons of all Egypt. I doubt Egypt just kept that tidbit to themselves.

Exodus is one of those OT stories that I think may have some basis and legs in history. Remember, I'm not a Biblical literalist. Science has done a fairly ok job of explaining the progression of events, and similar epidemics were elluded to in Egytian histories, but so far, not exactly at the same time as the Biblical event.

I think the story of the plagues does a really good job of illustrating why the old Jewish laws of hygiene were so important. Did God cause the plagues? I can absolutely see why during Biblical times they would think that and how it ended up being recorded that way.

You don't think God caused the plauges?

Honestly? No.

There are better explanations for the plagues.

I believe in a purely benevolent God. A purely benevolent God doesn't cause plagues in my opinion and experience.

So, the God you believe in has not justice within him? If your God witnessed a people (like the Israelites) being terribly treated (like they were in Egypt) for over 400 years he wouldn't do anything in his pure benevolence? If you don't mind me asking, which God do you believe in?

One can only assume that an omnipotent being has a better way to handle people he is unhappy with than a plaugue. Seems like a lazy way out that punishes innocent people. It makes no sense.

Why not? Just because God has all this power he's supposed to do things clean quick and tidy? Yes, God is Omnipotent, but he is also a living being with desires and preferences. I mean, he's not just some thing that does stuff, he feels he emotes, and he has a preferred way of doing things. You might have done it different, but your not God, and just because it wasn't done how you'd do it doesn't mean that God is any less God, it simply means that God is not you.

Yes ,it gives new meaning to the phrase "god bless you" when you sneeze doesn't it ?