wow. 10 pages in this thread and I am just now coming in... I've read the majority of the replies in here and honestly... I'm kinda disturbed. I noticed some people actually defending what this family is doing and in my opinion, thats just sick. This whole thing is just sick. What the hell are gays doing to THEM? Nothing. Hasn't anyone ever heard of "live and let live"? I mean honestly. and their children? How disgusting and horrible it is to teach your children such blind hatred. Not even so much as teach but force-feed it to them. They are purposely putting themselves and their family into danger. There are not many people who will stand for their ridiculous behavior you know. I'll be willing to bet that some other activist is just itching to get a hold of that evil woman and beat some bloody sense into her. What an ignorant family.

I feel nauseous.

and when that woman and her family dies... I will be the first to picket their funeral.... as immature and hypocritical as that sounds.

I read this entire thing this morning, watched both videos posted plus a couple others. Do I like this family's take on Christianity? No. Do they have the right to do what they are doing? Yes.
I do find it ironic that the soldiers funerals that they are picketing are fighting so that these people can have the right to do it. I don't hate them, I feel pity for them!

There aren't that many, only 60-70 in the entire church (or rather at the compound, err... whatever they call it) and they might have a following of sorts on line but their numbers don't seem to be swelling and the message they are spreading doesn't seem to be threatening anyone other than themselves. I felt sorry for their child getting hit at the curbside protest, yet it only serves in their twisted logic to prove how right they are in their interpretation of the bible. The more people hate them and revile them they grow stronger. The more people laugh and walk away from this kind of attitude the less chance it has to thrive. You can see it in the videos, the one woman even admits that she is really into the confrontation aspect of protesting. Well she calls it witnessing or whatever term she uses.

These people aren't stupid, they are smart most of them were or are still lawyers they know how far they can push things and stay out of prison. Every time someone gives them an interview it gives them a chance to spread their ideas and the chance that one other person out there says 'hey! that's the group for me!' but it also gives the other people out there that are angry the chance to find them and I really wonder about their safety, all it's going to take is one cheesed off person tracking them down via the numerous interviews they've given to hurt that family. Perhaps it's what they want to be the ultimate martyrs for their idea of god.

Once the grandfather dies I'm sure this church will fall. Why? Because as in most cults, once the leader (usually charismatic, which in a freaky way he is) dies, the end fighting begins and with no one to maintain the flock it scatters. Either that or they will go out in a 'blaze of glory' like Jim Jones or Heaven's Gate.
Regards,
Mabon.

I agree with you on that Mabon.

Once Phelps is dead and gone, this church is done. And your other assumption is correct too I think... It could be that they go down in a blaze of notoriaty like Jim Jones or David Koresh. The Branch Davidians are probably a better example actually. Without Phelps, they're nothing, but he may not like the idea of NOT being the head of their "church" and may pull a Koresh.

Homosexuality is a genetic-hormonal-brain (hypothalamus) condition.
Why would a god that created "everything" let this be so prevalent in humans and mammals so often if it disgusts him so much ?
Homosexuality is not necessarily a disorder- although it has no evolutionary benefit that i can think of.
Homosexuality has been around from the beginning-homosexuality also shows up in the animal kingdom-supposedly about 8% of rams are homosex. and do not breed.
Trying to convert homosex. is like trying to convert someone from being straight to gay.
It just shows biblical Jehovah's ignorance again just like his hatred of non-virgins even though a majority of virgins have no hymen or lose it through sports etc.
I choose not to worship an "ignorant"-non-sensical god.

I can think of one... one that should warm the cockels of your heart, population control.

However, MY view is that God created all people equal. God isn't concerned about whose naughty bits are touching whose... He is however concerned about whether two of his human creations are in a loving, lasting, equal, respectful partnership.

I NEVER said to do away with freedom of speech. You're putting words in my mouth. And it has NOTHING to do with what is written in the bible. Quite frankly, I don't once recall the word POOP being written in the bible nor that homosexuals ate it. NOT ONCE. You are welcome to prove me wrong.

I just can't believe you're using "freedom of speech" to defend what they're saying. Are they ALLOWED to? Well, apparently, as they've not gotten in trouble for it. So fine. Let them have their "right." Does it make it okay? NO. Not even a tiny little bit. After reading the rest of this thread I am almost in tears, I'm having so much trouble with this.

I have a brother in the military who is in Iraq right now. What he fights for, are various things, but they are certainly NOT to be judged or scrutinized by anyone but GOD. I swear to you, with GOD as my witness, if her and her wretched family (sans her poor children of course) ever showed up to my brother's funeral should my frightened family ever have to be presented with such horrible and devastating news,(which we worry and dread everyday he is gone) I would have trouble keeping my composure with her.

How you can say that they aren't harming anyone is just plain ignorance. You're going to tell me that, if it were let's say a Gay person spreading gay pride or gay principles to kids or other American's, to YOU and this family that wouldn't be harmful? In their view? What about promoting murder? Or drug use? Beat your wives! Beat your children! Sure these are just words and physically harm no one...but you're going to tell me that, that is in NO way harmful? I BEG to differ. There are HUNDREDS of ways to promote the word of the bible without standing in the street and insulting and terrifying despaired and devastation stricken families with this utterly HURTFUL nonsense. You don't think it's harmful for this family to stand outside of grieving families and their dead relatives and spout this CRAP? I don't understand that. Have your opinions...I do not now and never will understand that.

That is my two cents and I am too insulted to continue.

I am all for freedom of speech an the right to have your own religion. But people like these make me sick to my stomach.
The gal they have in standing at a dead persons funeral and say these things is just demonic.
I hope Satan, if he excists is keeping a special place for them in hell, cause that's where they are going.

jesus is god. you know whole trinity thing

Hello Ambriel,
while I hope that your post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I did want to respond to your comments.
Perhaps in my comment I didn't make my point clear enough, they aren't going out and physically assaulting, vandalizing anything or anyone they are exercising their right of free speech. Being lawyers they know how far they can push their issues in public without being outside the law. I'm sure if someone checked they have all the right paper work and contact the right officials before any of their staged protests, regardless of where they take place.
Freedom of speech gives them the right to protest and in that protest against the government and society's condition as they see it. That's the law, I don't like their mode of speech, but they are protected by the constitution to say it. Even though I find what they are saying EXTREMELY objectionable and would rather they not use their freedoms in such a fashion, I however would defend their right to do so. Catch twenty two isn't it? The reason being is even though I find what they are doing/saying objectionable one day it might be something that you want to say or I want to say that is censured. People that protest, for Gay pride or other issues that the average person isn't comfortable with do take a fair share of heat for their opinions as well.


When people exhibit the type of behavior that this group does it's like a child having a tantrum, they say things that are provocative in hopes of getting you angry so that you'll pay attention to them and that they will get their way. Too much attention has been paid to this group already in my honest opinion. The media is having fun with the agitation that this group stirs up in people because they are provocative.

Every person who serves should know that not all American citizens have the wit/sensibilities/respect to understand that the service persons don't start wars, they serve in them out of duty, loyalty or whatever brought them to the military. I don't know how far back in history the idea of blaming the solders for the war goes but it has gotten to be the easy way of voicing displeasure about war. Kind of killing the messenger for bad news if you will. And since it's almost impossible to openly protest our current president go for the next target. It's a cheap way of doing things I agree but they are getting peoples attention which is what they crave.
Frankly, instead of a family that this group chooses to picket getting angry, I would personally enjoy to the depths of my bones to see the entire assembly laugh at them or better yet walk past them as if they didn't even exist! The dignity that such a example would be would be staggering!
Regards,
Mabon.

MLR...You may have not been involved in or seen some of the similar discussions here on this same topic, but I'll try to sum up my personal feelings on it real quick.

The reason it was and still is an "abomination" to the church, is that homosexuals don't breed more parishioners, and homosexual behavior is scary and weird to some people, especially Catholic church dogmatics and leaders, who don't even understand "straight" people sex. The only reason "straight" people sex is acceptable is because it makes new little parishioners (or so it seems to me).

The reason priests don't have families is that Waaaaaaay back when, the Church did not want local parish priests to develop followings and "dynasties", since even a small town priest held substantial power as a local leader back then. How messed up this violation of human nature is can be verified by the rampant sex abuse being exposed in the Catholic Church.

These are not Gods edicts, but MANS. I sincerely doubt a real God would do and say half the crap in the bible. It must be admitted that MUCH if not all of the bible is MAN made, or at least Man influenced (of course, there are always the inerrant bible folks that will disagree).

Taking these things into consideration, saying you choose not to worship an ignorant god just makes no sense. The reality is, you choose not to worship a God that has been mis-interpreted and mis-used by people with a personal agenda of power or maybe even perversion in some cases. Not worshiping a God because some HUMAN added to, or deleted from, or totally created text that you don't agree with, is pure folly.

Imagine if I said, "I refuse to worship a god that hates clams!" It just sounds stupid. Why? Because there are no "be kind to clams" political action committees, because clams rights bumper stickers aren't all the rage now? I know it's a stretch, but it's TRUE. The OT says no shellfish, and no homosexuality. Not worshiping God because you disagree with either statement is folly. It's just NOT a good argument for atheism.

If you don't worship, and are truly and atheist, just find a logical argument rather than what amounts to an anti-argument.

How about, I don't worship God because I don't believe in a God. Simple, and to the point. Right?

Now that is a god I can worship with all my heart

I am aware of all this and you are absolutely right !
That's why I'm agnostic.

lol that's what I say once in a while - birth control. however plenty do have children. and here is a switch = they plan it. something most straight people don't do.

Plenty of people can't have kids and this earth is so over crowded that procreation and the survival of humankind is the least of our worries.

your last statement is spot on !

Ambriel , in Europe gay couples are allowed to adopt children. Outcome ? The kids don't turn gay !!
It's not conditioning or parental influence. It's genetic & hormonal.

And it's one of many reasons I attend the churches that I attend. My own Meeting (we don't have churches, we have meeting houses--I just call it church because it's less confusing) marries same sex couples. Our congregation is about 25-30% homosexual. Oddly? Very few of our gay and lesbian members lobby for the legalization of gay marriage. To us, it's the relationship between two people, before God, that is the most important. Not what the state says.

I would fight for anyones right to free speech , on the same hand speech based on bigotry , ignorance and hate while they have a right to be ass*oles they only make themselves and christians that believe homosexuality is a sin look foolish.

I say let westboro preach.

he's done wonders for pushing gay rights forward because of his public display of ignorance . a blessing from god in disguise. always look for the silver lining.

even the conservative whole marriage thing. worked well but now people are starting to wonder .

give it another 20 years and gays will be getting married everywhere . no doubt. equal under the law. keep religious belief out of it.

it's inevitable. because we are evolving not devolving.

I thought Quakers were much more traditional than that. I guess I always equate Quakers with Amish style worship. I'll try to get over that!

your wrong if you go by the bible - adulterers are to be killed by stoning. repent or not. adultry is an abomination .

being gay isn't a 'lifestyle' I hate that word. it's not a choice , but the ignorant believe it is and like arguing with a rock that thier heads are filled with , useless. your kitty litter anology isn't just bad it moronic.

that's your opinion. and you know what they say about opinions !!

Maybe I should have directed this at Chokmah!

I guess my point is, it makes NO sense for people NOT to worship or believe in God or Jesus because they disagree with the bible, especially the OT. If that was the case, NO ONE at Red Lobster would believe in God! Red Lobster, home of the heathens! The perfect place for Pagans and Atheists to hold fashionable suaree's and enjoy heathen Crab-Cakes!

lol you would think people would be smart enough to understand that one.

if the majority of gay people were born to straight parents ........... maybe we should stop straight procreation ? that would stop them !!! lol

it's a myth gay parents raise gay children. a myth people. you could have a boy raised by the most outragous drag queen you could think of and he could turn out straight . On the plus side as well is he won't be filled with bigoted hate and ignorance.

so who would make the better parent ? a straight family with a mean abusive father and a mother that stays and takes it ? or a loud outragous drag queen ?

which one would hurt the child more ? why? remember it's a myth gay people raise children to be gay . So is it better to live with abuse or an understanding outragous drag queen? think La Cage Au Folle.

curious to what people would say.

Chokmah blows me away, trying to quote the bible and appearing to be ultra conservative to make Christians appear insane. Saying "true" believers follow the bible, then mocking the bible in the same breath, is pretty lame.

That's why Chok makes statements like, "The WBC are just following the bible". The reality is, they are following their leaders interpretation of biblical text. But any one that is a true Christian must believe the same way as them, right? Pretty prejudiced thinking.

hahaa, it IS Amish style worship in a sense. The Amish and Mennonite used to be one denomination, they are both Anabaptists. Quakers technically have no physical or theological ties to either faith, the beliefs are quite different. However, that being said. The Quakers and Mennonite have a LONG history of working together despite their theological differences (the Amish are still far too insular and aren't interested in being part of a formal public alliance of sorts)

There are a few things that tie Quakers, Mennonites and another Anabaptist splinter group called Brethren together. We're all members of the Historic Peace Churches. We believe in complete equal rights, peace, and we all practice a form of silent worship (as do the Amish). There's also confusion because Quakers are also "plain dressers" but today you'd be hard pressed to find a quaker that looks like the oatmeal guy.

There are two types of Quakers although the differences are fairly subtle--Liberal and Orthodox. My beliefs fall somewhere in the middle of the two. There are about 4 kinds of Mennonites ranging from as conservative as teh Amish to as liberal as the Friend.

If you really study the different denominations of Christianity, you pretty much come to the conclusion that Liberal Mennonites, Quakers, and Unitarians are the MOST liberal of all the Christians. However, we're small in numbers, we're quiet, we don't convert members, we don't recruit, so most folks are very unfamilier with the beliefs and practices of these rather obscure groups. We seek to be examples for ALL people, and that's all that's required.

So you can see why I find the WBC so deplorable. They go against everything I believe.

I was not directing this response toward you..sorry if you thought so.

I know at root what you are saying is correct...I guess I'm just too emotional about the situation to feel "fair" about it. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's just how I feel.

And you're right...if they didn't get such a rise out of people, it probably wouldn't be nearly as worthwhile to them. But I imagine for other people, like myself, emotions cloud their rationality. I just don't like this not one bit...But I'll try to hang back on this one as best as I can from here on out...I pretty much said what I have to say. But thanks.

I wasn't saying that? I was merely pointing out that from their standpoint, standing up for being gay could be as harmful, trying to put it in a scenario that someone who doesn't share my view of this heinous situation my possibly understand without throwing more banter at me about how perfectly "good" and "Godly" this behavior is. That's all

Not trying to nitpick anyone, but again if there were any misconception, I was never getting at whether gay people were gay by being raised that way or by genetics. My post actually had nothing to do with it...I was just trying to make a point.

Hope that clears everything up if I caused any confusion.

Thank you for stating that! I wasn't entirely sure but hoped that you weren't. I hoped that I had made my distaste for their 'form' of protesting quite clear yet your response was so honest and seemed to me to reflect a lot of other's feeling's I just wanted to respond to it.

It has to be difficult on the families of the service persons having their loved ones funerals picketed and it is unconscionable for this group to protest in this fashion. Truly I thank you for your honesty. It's a very understandable response to an unreasonable situation that bunch of people have created. They have added turmoil to a situation that is already painful enough. I hope that your brother and all of our service persons can come home safely, soon.



Regards,
Mabon.

Thanks for the laugh.

God did not create homosexuality. God created man to be with woman (and woman to be with man).

Too bad you CHOOSE not to know God (that's the ultimate unforgiveable sin, by the way, to purposely reject Him). If you knew Him, you'd know ignorance doesn't exist when it comes to Him. God is all-knowing. God knows what He created and exactly why. Obviously the ignorant one here is you (that's not meant as an insult... it just means you aren't fully informed).

Yes it's too bad....................

Just to be fair, since I'm also a Christian, I take great exception to the way you've presented your opinion. There's only one thing I agree with in your statement, which is "God knows what he created and exactly why" That is true. The rest I found to be... yes... insulting.

Gotcha

Really?



I think God "creating" homosexuality would be an arguable point. Did he create my craving for cheesecake, or is that a biological function? See what I mean? I think crediting God with EVERY thing is a pit-fall.

God, if he created man and woman as so many creationists say, kinda made us so we fit a certain way, for a specific purpose too.

Now, as far as the whole choosing to reject God thing goes...I'll keep out of that, as well as the all-knowing stuff.

Though I don't think calling someone ignorant is very nice usually, MLR did refer to God in a pretty negative light earlier. I understand why someone would lash out a little. Control yourself RAGUS! Naughty boy!

I don't care who you think you are, but if you're UNCIVILIZED, then I ABSOLUTELY don't waste my time on you -- my basic motto. We, Americans, have the right to simply IGNORE, unless they, the SAVAGES, start getting physical and destructive... Thank God for CIVILIZED laws! And I don't waste my hate on shadows.

Um...what?

"Pray tell," InHuman, what don't you understand???

I didn't intend for my message to be insulting (as stated at the end of my message). I realize it can come across that way because many tend to take the word "ignorant" as an insult. But look it up in the dictionary. I meant it not as an insult to anyone but for strictly what the word means. To me, anyone that will say they CHOOSE to not know God due to his ignorance is, well... ignorant. That's my honest opinion because people who know God know ignorant doesn't apply to God. God is the Alpha and Omega, He knows ALL. Ignorance and God don't go hand in hand. It doesn't even make sense. So to me, anyone that will just purposely choose something when they don't really know one way or the other is seriously lacking in information... i.e. ignorant. Again, I was using the word as what's defined in the dictionary for a person that lacks information/knowledge on something -- honestly was not meant as insult. As a Christian, I would think you'd see I was answering as a Christian. I meant it with completely well intentions. I cannot help the mindset of those that take it another way. Sorry. I guess I have failed in my communication efforts. At least I try. God knows that as a human I will fail many times in whatever, but I know He knows my intentions at least are sincere and Godly. From my relationship with God, I know He is not displeased with me. He knows I'm trying. If I fail, I will get up, dust myself off and try again. A Christian attitude would be to at least understand what THIS Christian is trying to do and to offer assistance where needed, not run me down. We're not supposed to judge the efforts of other Christians.

Just to clarify again, I did not "lash out". I have nothing against MLR whatsoever. I was simply responding to their comment of choosing to reject God because they *think* He is ignorant. I know that is nothing more than a lack of information on MLR's part, so that's why I said what I did. And I do remember clarifying in THAT post that it was not meant as insult (yet it was taken that way anyway... go figure). I admit it can be an insulting word but I honestly didn't mean it that way. Please see my other post above for further explanation.

This is fully explained now and all my stuff is on the table. I've nothing to hide nor be ashamed for. No need for further clarification. My intent is clear. People's hearts will determine what they want to go with (just like how anger is a frame of mind -- a choice). Anyone choosing to see my post for something different than it was meant, I cannot help you. You choose your actions.

I'll pray. That's the best thing to do.

I agree to an extent. But doesn't it sadden you to see them driving this hate into their children? God isn't about hatred. God is love.

look at ragus' sig...that's what God wants

I hear ya.

*off-topic, sorry* You're a Muse fan aren't you?


*on-topic*

I think that the main problem with the Phelps is that they don't listen to other people. They're extremely narrow-minded, which is a shame really. So far, every reporter I've seen that talked to them got into an arguement with them. I'd pity them, if it weren't for the fact that they hate me (being bi-sexual). Ah well. They live across the ocean, so I can't be really bothered.
Though I wouldn't be surprised if they'd turn anti-Holland as well, if they'd know about some quite popular people around here that are gay.

What I don't get though, is the whole 'gays eat poo' idea came from o.O . I mean, eh? WTF?

I do feel sorry for their kids. They can't help being born into this family, but then, you'd expect the older kids to have gotten a mind of their own. But the younger kids, that's just sad. They don't have a clue what's really going on.

Yep, go ahead and keep praying .................................



...............................while I do a raindance.














-

You got that right...god is about love

Any parent that drives hate on to their kids simply doesnt love their kids enough do they?

The Phelps family is just sick, period. The whole anti gay thing is just a convenient way to spread hatred because they are a sick family. If it were forty years ago I'm sure the signs would say something racial and they'd use the bible to spread hate. When people are this sick and full of hate the object of hatred is kind of moot, they'd find a way to hate SOMEONE for SOMETHING. What is sad is that this way of thinking is what causes some to commit hate crimes. Just because these people hate gays doesn't give them the right to harm someone for being gay. They have said on more than one occasion in live interviews and in print that killing someone for being gay is not only fine but good according to their beliefs. That is a hate crime waiting to happen..

Well said..I have to agree with you..it was insulting

It wasn't meant to be.
I do apologize to those who felt insulted in any way though. There's no way to use that word in its proper form and someone not take it to mean an insult. So I apologize for that. It's just human nature. I understand that.

Anyhow... back on topic... I don't understand how someone (as these people in the video) can believe their hatred is what God wants. I read the Bible and that's not the same message I get from it... nor from my relationship with God. Sure, God has some strong feelings about both things He approves of as well as things He does not. But nowhere do I get the feeling that He wants us to be a group of haters, especially towards people that sin. Sin is forgiveable. We are not to judge. God is the only one that can do that. Those people are not following God's commands if they are judging other humans. I don't understand why they don't see that... since they read the Bible and all. My opinion is that Satan is the driving force behind them, trying to use the Bible to make their wrong behavior seem alright. They aren't fooling me (or too many others for that matter).

Very kind and yet decent of you...I apprecaite it...sound more like a real gent..respected

Awwww stop, ya makin' me blush.

Its true though...anyone that admits to their mistakes or any wrong doing..shows gumption and respect..not to forget decent....<--a person like that is SMART and a true gent or Lady lol...that deserves RESPECT....

I could never bring myself to argue with someone who was like this....

Thats why i show respect to certain christians IE Jor-el...Bluefinger or PA.....they know their bible and even if i do not agree with them...I still think they deserve respect..only because how they deal with certain issues....they understand im not christian..but they never show me any disrespect...I admire them for it...not too many like them ya know

The Bible gets interpreted differently constantly. Why not let God be the judge & not worry so much about how others choose to live their lives. What makes you think that YOU will not be judge by God for having hate & prejudice in your heart? Don't forget the Bible was written by men. Hate is hate despite what the book says. Use common sense people. Teaching young children to hate & be prejudice is wrong. They're not even given a choice on how to grow up. Get it together people.