Wives submit to your husband ... Well, here is what the wife of Dr. Bob Jones III, chancellor of Bob Jones University, has to say.

BJU: Sunshine on the Soapsuds
http://www.bju.edu/resources/radio/programs/sunshine.html

Anyone?

Sean

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Morning IS. The radio program airs daily on BJU. I thought they streamed it over the net, but maybe not. Anywho ... You would not believe the rubbish this woman spews. She means complete submission to the husband. Once, she told how she asked her hubby if she could cut her finger-nails! He gave her permission to do so. It was just unbelievable! Just lunacy!

Sean

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I've never heard of the woman in the article, thankfully.

My mum was raised catholic (strictly), my dad's an atheist. That led to some interesing exchange of views between her parents and my dad. She was raised in a household where the men work and the women stay at home, for want of a better phrase - the women do the womens work at home and the men do sod all. Needless to say my dad had a few things to say about that lol..

He was very hands on when we were kids, at one point they had 4 kids aged 6 and under, my dad would wash nappies, cook, hoover, anything that needed doing really...my grandad couldn't really get his head around that although he never mentioned it (to my knowledge).

Despite her upbringing my mother has never had any problem saying and doing exactly what she likes. She's never worked and believes that by being a mum it's her job to stay at home (much to my dads annoyance as the money would have been helpful).

Her catholic upbringing has shaped the way she views roles within a relationship but being with my dad meant she had to rethink her outlook as he was having none of it.

Like i say, never heard of this woman, i'll look abit more into her. It's a shame this kind of brain washing still goes on, quite perverse really...

My Grandmother had/has ideals of what is womans work and what is mans work - both are womens work. aka after your done mowing the lawn fix your brother something to eat ! needless to say my brother wouldn't get fed.

But more often than not the women in my family have outworked the men by far because of stereotypical tradition - go to work come home and go to work while he sits on the couch. Thankfully that is a changing scene. Lazy men are now booted out. Even my brother does laundry and fixes dinners now. And my sister in law learned how to work on her own car. she's the one that has always mowed the lawn.

I think feminists got a bad rap from the conservative arena the past 20+ years which slowly started eroding what they were working for - plainly equality for all. yet women still make less than men for the same jobs even though the old adage of a man needs to support a family isn't so anymore. 1 income male based is few and far between. it's either 2 incomes or a woman with a family on her own.

wives submit in my family now ? lol would never happen. It may not be perfect , but my sister and sister in law would boot them out if the men in my family started acting like that.

And to the women that live like that - get help. find your own worth. don't let anyone walk all over you ( that includes men too)

Good grief what is she a man or a mouse? Hold on, that's wong....

Seriously though, years ago, my husband, my eldest daughter who was only two at the time and myself went to a couple's house for a meal. Now he was a fanatical born-again Christian who, looking back, I realize he thought that his wife should be at his beck and call. Sitting down to the meal, her hubby realised that the mayonnaise was missing from the table

"Go and get the mayonnaise" he told her (it was a "tell" and not an "ask" too)

She obediently got up, brought the mayonnaise and returned. Now do you know, during that meal, she was running around all over the place. On the way home, me and my other half couldn't get over it. To be honest I would have told him to get the bloody mayonnaise himself! lol

However, if he were like that in company, I wonder what he was like in private? Being a good host is fine, but he was ordering her about and it was embarrassing

Loving and caring for another is one thing, but I am damned sure being an complete doormat is not a prerequisite for being a good Christian.

Anyway, one last thing, he actually said to my daughter at one time in the afternoon, "come to your Father" (he thought he was God, I swear), it was lucky my husband knew what he was like otherwise he may have thought something funny had gone on!

I refused to have anything to do with them again. Bloody out and out nutters!

Inner Space,

Maybe its just me. But I don't get this whole Indoctrination into being a victim that feminists run around saying that women go through.

Yes of course there is socialization to some degree. But the idea that women by some sort of nature are vulnerable to being brainwashed is just something of a sexist comment in and of itself to me.

What I do see if you don't mind me saying is a lot of hypocrisy in what you just wrote about women being mistreated by other women.

Here is a woman who is happy. She's a public speaker, a mother, a wife and a published author. And yet because what makes her happy goes against what you deem "exercising her authority and power" she's a brainwashed victim?

Don't you see how hypocritical that comment is coming from someone who is talking about allowing a woman to find her own power?

One of things that I will never understand about feminists is why they insist that there is one proper way to be a fulfilled woman and will look down, besmirch and denigrate other women who have made choices in their lives which they find personally satisfying just because it touches a nerve in another woman's life because she made similar choices and was not happy.

Live and let live. Lets stop treating women like idiots who can't think for themselves.

If a woman is in this position and she's complaining or suffering that's one thing. But if a woman is happy with her choice, suggesting that she's brainwashed is a real effort to take away the authority she has in her choice.

I do not agree that I should submit to any man because I am a woman. But I'm not about to judge another woman who thinks this is the right decision for her.

Especially not a woman who looks like she's done a hell of a lot more in her life as far as accomplishments go compared to most women I know.

Kudos to her. If it works for her great. I'm not going to do it for me. But I'm not going to try to make her less of a woman for doing it.

Obviously, you're going to find extreme views in any organization, discipline, or belief system you look at. The fact that some will take something to an extreme does not diminish the impact of something when practiced correctly.

Submission does not mean subjugation. As an employee, I submit to the leadership of my manager, although I am older, more experienced, and more knowledgeable than he is, because he has a position which places him over me. Being a smart man, my manager turns to me quite often for advice, and has even delegated some decision-making responsibilities to me, but yet, the responsibility and the final say so still rest with him. My wife and I have a very similar relationship. She is not subservient and the fact that she submits to my authority in no way speaks about her ability to reason or lead, it's just roles set up to insure an orderly household.

I can see that but you can be happy with your view of your life without realising your view has been restricted by brainwashing, surely?

Add-on: i know you wasn't asking me.

That's a cop out. Like I said Andrea Yates saying she's happy is one thing. You can obviously see that she wasn't. But this woman is happy. Calling her brainwashed just really angers me.

I see women American and European women especially doing this to Arabic Hijabi all the time. We have some American woman who works in an office as an administrative assistant telling a Female Doctor mother of two sons, that she's oppressed because she wears the hijab.

I have never been able to get these judgemental American women to see the sheer hypocrisy in their views of these women so I don't expect to now.

Some of the comments that I've heard are like "Just make them take off the hijab, they will cry and scream like a baby but in the end they will understand that its better"

or "They just think they are happy, but they are brainwashed"

Basically treating these women like idiots or stepford wives because they find happiness in something that is frightening to the other woman.

Anyway I don't even want to debate it because its pointless. American feminists love to think they are more superior than other women so it goes no where.

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Like i said, i can see your point of view. Calling my question a cop out IS a cop out. You could have at least tried to answer it as it's a valid question.

*"Anyway I don't even want to debate it because its pointless"*

ok.

That's the whole point IS. Your experience is YOURS. Your prison was YOUR PRISON. Not everyone elses. You made bad choices for YOU. You suffered.

Its not every other womans duty to live her life according to the lessons you learned in your life. That's your job.

I know plenty of women who chose to submit to their husbands that are amazingly powerful women and probably do more in a year as far as accomplishments than you have done in your life time.

So deciding that your limited scope of your own life gives you some sort of authority on WOMEN is ridiculous beyond the pale.

Anyway I feel strongly about this. And as far as saying you are not a feminist perhaps you are the one who needs to take the blinders off. Because methinks the lady doth protest too much.

I love you too honey. Sorry for the fiest! I respect you as well and I think of you as a powerful and intelligent woman even though I disagree with a lot of your views.

I just wish you would extend the same respect to other women.


ETA

Y'all have to excuse me. Its been a while since I've posted in a debate. I'm fulla fiyah!
sorry

here's a point to concider -

most people who are brainwashed don't realise they are.

look at the happy saps who took thier lives believing a ufo was in the tail of a comet.

and why should a wife be subservient/submissive ? do men actually think they know better? if they did the world wouldn't be as screwed up as it is.

there is nothing a woman couldn't solve over a cup of coffee and some good chocolate

That's a good point Lt. Ripley. I would agree that women in the United States are brainwashed to believe that women are usually victims who can't think for themselves and that if they in any way make a life choice that places them in a traditional role, they are being victimized by the male patriarchy.

Women in the US are brainwashed by feminist ranting. We have been raised in it for the last 40 odd years. And most women can't even see it.

That's why its pointless to debate it. And its why most of them will say they aren't a feminist. Because its a major denial.

Yes, and if they ruled the world our economy would be based on shoes.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

*backs out of thread whilst still in one piece*

that's your insecurity showing. your assuming that's how feminists think. but your wrong. and no I don't belong to any feminist organization. But I believe equal rights is God given and held back by those in power.

Why is it that you can see your authority and power but the "other women" out there who make traditional choices and do believe in God and follow that line of thinking can't possibly be authoritative or in power?

I know of a member on this site who is a Muslim. She is hands DOWN one of the most powerful and intelligent women that I have ever met. I admire her tremendously and she's in her early 20's more pulled together than most women I know in their 40s.

And yet she chooses to submit? So where do women get the idea that they have a right to try to oppress her decision.

I guess my point is, in these type of situations the people doing the oppressing are the WOMEN who gang up on the woman who makes a traditional choice and berate her for it.


I remember on year in my high school we had a "future career day" and one of my girlfriends who was a very intelligent free thinker showed up barefoot, with six cabbage patch kids tied around her waste. She was excoriated by the female teachers in school.

Its a forced mindset of feminists that women can not find happiness in traditional or humbling roles.

but the difference is 'choice' in that traditional role . for the most part , where those roles still take place and in this economy it's rare , but look world wide. it isn't a choice. it's domination. and these are the women who are brainwashed into believing this is how it is supposed to be.

women aren't brainwashed by feminist ranting. I think what they say makes you feel insecure about your own beliefs and you lable it brainwashing because it doesn't agree with you.

it's not pointless to debate. I am a feminist insomuch as I believe in equal rights , equal pay. the woman who stays home is not compensated for her work. Plenty of women have lived as a at home wife and mother and in thier old age after thier husbands have passed away find themselves without insurance , income , home , ect.........
so it isn't equal.

I think you are the one in denial.

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anything that raises one gender above another is abusive and wrong. any gender that dominates over another is wrong.

same holds for color , race , sexuality.

I'm not in denial. How would I be in denial? I live a very free life. I am not in submission to my husband. But I've lived on both sides of the deal.

I think women in general are jealous of women who are able to find men to love them and to raise a family with. I think that women who manage to do this are always accused of being oppressed if they choose to stay home with their children.

You say you believe in equality but then why do you treat women like children? If a woman makes the choice and is fullfilled and happy that is none of your business to make a judgement on.

We are talking about this woman in this article. This is what I am referring to. This woman is HAPPY and fulfilled. And she's done more in her life than either You or Inner Space I am absolutely sure of that.

And yet you sit around like harpies denigrating her as a brainwashed idiot?

So who is the one with the problem? Because its not her?

lol that may be so - I shudder . I hate shopping

Care to back that up rather than spinning your wheels? People who haven't been in the thick of this lie? Sounds like you using your own personal dramas to oppress another woman.

That's what I've been saying from the start. Care to address that? And you claim you've made more of a contribution to the world than this woman has?

Frankly I'm sorry but I don't believe that. I might not agree with this woman and the things she says but I really do not believe that you have made a bigger impact in the world than she has.

I do think you are an incredible woman you know that. I know that.

Hey, True! Good to see you back! Been a while.

Anyway *rolls up sleeves* you make a reasonable point about IS's experience being her own, but doesn't that apply to you also?

Just because you 'don't get indoctrination' doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You didn't let yourself become a victim, but that isn't necessarily true (no pun intended) of all these other women. That they may be successful is no consideration to the fact they have been denied a choice. Yes, some may have made the choice to be submissive wives - at least on the surface - but socialisation by any mechanism is an insidious device.

Whether it be through religion, peer-pressure, familial indoctrination, whatever, the realisation that the choice is available to them is reduced as the ego is bound in a cage made of expectation. These women only think they are free. I am pro-choice, and I mean that in the broadest possible terms. No-one should have to make decisions based on others' expectations of them and, although the situation is slowly improving, the fact remains that (most) women today have fewer choices than men with respect to equality, lifestyle and role. Of course we all fall victim to others' expectations from time to time, some more often than others. But why should we?

At the end of the day, it's all about respect. The sad truth is that, although the men in these situations may respect the women as wives, mothers etc, they do not appear to respect them as people, as the person they are.

why not go back and really read what I've written and get back to me. I've no problem with a womans' choice , but when it is expected of her. when submission is what is EXPECTED is when my biscuits burn.
for years women stayed home because it was expected of them only to find how screwed up thier lives were after their husbands passed away.

they are called displaced housewifes ! educate yourself on them.



and what the hell has this to do with anything ? are you lamely implying that a woman can't have a man and family without being submissive ? that's insane.
Jealous ? plenty of displaced housewives found themselves jealous when it came years later and they wanted to define who they were as individuals and felt frustrated at all the years they took care of everyone else except themselves.




that's quite an assumption.

I absolutely agree with you Leonardo. 200%

Which is why I keep saying this is about THIS WOMAN


These women on here have said she is a brainwashed lunatic.

Very well said, IamsSon

When I was leading a youth group Bible Study a couple of years ago, I was going through the book of Ephesians and we came to chapter 5 where this whole "submit to your husbands" rule was written. I asked the 12-14 year olds what implications this had in their lives, or in their parents lives. I asked them whether this meant that the man could walk all over the woman and subjugate her or even treat her with contempt, perhaps even violence. The 12-14 year olds looked at their Bible's and then pointed to the very next paragraph, where it said "Husbands, Love your wives in the same way that Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her". They said that the man could never even think of taking advantage of the woman that way because how would that be loving her with the same love that Jesus showed in sacrificing himself. They said that what I suggested was exploitation, not love. And that's exactly what it is.

Submission does not equal subjugation, nor does headship imply dominance. Or in the words of one of my favourite theologians: Sin has debased headship into dominance and obedience into servility....... But (for the Christian) it is not to be so (DB. Knox: Selected works, volume 1 The Everlasting God, page 94).

~ Regards, PA

I actually have to agree with TrueThat on this one. (yea True! Love seeing you back!)

I know women who are very happy to have their husbands run their lives to an extent. Why? Because its very very safe.

I'm a single woman, however I was married for 12 years. He really wanted me to be the subservient wife. I actually tried that too for a short period of time. It wasn't bad for me. It was however VERY bad for him. It's a lot of responsibility, more than he wanted or could handle but he never saw it that way. We eventually split, he married a woman who would absolutely submit to his will under any circumstances (she relies on him for everything, she barely speaks English). Last I heard, it still wasn't working for HIM, although it seems to work for her.

I think it can work if he understands that his life will be that much more difficult, it's a lot of responsibility.

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I lived the same way for 6 years MissMell's and I liked parts of it and hated parts of it.

But what we see here is something I see quite frequently. People name calling a woman who has made a different choice and berating her for it.

I see women in subjugated roles all the time and while its not the choice I make I see that these women are truly happy and fulfilled. I have done interviews with these women and they are some of the most intelligent and educated women I know.

That's another thing that really gets my goat. Some of the most outspoken women on the issues of Feminism have little to NO education.

They if they are lucky MIGHT have gotten a BA years ago that they got and never used and are working in mediocre jobs leading mediocre lives.

But they are always the first ones to treat highly educated women who chose traditional roles like Children.

Love the right to vote as a woman ? thank a feminist .

I think true you don't have a clear true picture of what a feminist is but rather what men have made them to be in the media to counter act.
plenty of home makers are feminists.

Feminism


Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and discrimination against women. Feminism is also described as an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes.[1] Some have argued that gendered and sexed identities, such as "man" and "woman", are social constructs. Feminists often differ in opinion over the sources of inequality, how to attain equality, and the extent to which gender and gender-based identities should be questioned and critiqued. Modern feminist political activists commonly campaign for a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy on matters such as reproductive rights, including the right to abortion, access to contraception and quality prenatal care; for protection from domestic violence; against sexual harassment and rape; for workplace rights, including maternity leave and equal pay; and against other forms of discrimination.[2]

Since the 1980s standpoint feminists have argued that the feminist movement should address global issues (such as rape, incest, and prostitution) and culturally specific issues (such as female genital mutilation in some parts of Africa and the Middle East and "glass ceiling" practices that impede women's advancement in developed economies) in order to understand how gender inequality interacts with racism, homophobia, colonialism, and classism in a "matrix of domination."[3][4]

She is, in my opinion, indoctrinated. Whether it is because of a religious background or by familial pressures. She may not be subjugated, but she is trapped in her role - at least that is the appearance. Of course I do not know the particulars of her marital relationship, and it's possible some of what she says is a 'front', but, going simply on what she does say, she has willingly tied herself into this role because it was expected of her.

Whether you call this brainwashing or not doesn't matter. Her choices were reduced by this expectation (from both family as she was growing up presumably, and her husband now) so she has submitted. While more and more men are waking up to the fact that having a partner who is that in all respects is far more satisfying than having a partner who is a servant, it's still the case that men (and women) who are raised in a tradition-bound manner still see the latter as more desirable.

Yet another feminist telling me how I think because I'm a child and can't think for myself.

I know what a feminist is. But I also recognize a feminist agenda when I see one.

And fair dues to all those causes. But what one of those things have you chosen to involve yourself in?

Because most "feminists" I know just like to sit around and judge women not really do anything.

is this fact or your mistaken uneducated opinion ? Most of the ones I know do have great educations . including myself . but even if some don't does that make them less then ? Most stay at home wives don't have educations either.

What was your education in Lt. Ripley? And most stay at home wives don't have educations? Care to back that up?

so how many housewives who believe in submission and subservience have changed the world? who are they ?

I'll give you a list of feminists that have. give me a list of women who are stay at home moms that have made a difference to the outside world.

what exactly is the feminist agenda you see ? they aren't against the choice of a woman being a home maker so what is it then ? the fact that subservience is not liked ?

lol sad.

See that there is the operative word on this whole judgement of this woman. Presumably.

As I've stated. I don't agree necessarily how she lives her life. But its HERS to live and not mine to judge her on it.

Its the same reason I disagree with some Christian Fundy being against Gay Marriage. Its none of your freaking business how another person lives their life as long as it doesn't break the law.

Do you personnally know the women in the article?

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as much as you can back up that feminists don't have educations - actually I can back that up but it will have to be later since I have to go to the bank ( someone has frauded my checking/visa account )

but I'm sure I can find numbers on education and feminism somewhere.


my education ? a B/A in FA - all I ever wanted to do and a B/A in Auto Technology and design. to actually make money. ( and I'm state certified as well ) I have also taught privately in Fine Arts. - hate teaching.

how's that ?

Stop trying to side track the debate because you can't stand on your original argument.I am against the gang mentality of publicly tearing down a woman and sitting around name calling by grown women who supposedly are in support of female empowerment.I am against the hypocrisy of judging a woman as inferior to you simply because she makes different choices. I am against treating women as permanent victims and children who can't think for themselves. And mostly I am against judging a woman based on presumptions and your own bad luck with relationships.But Leo makes a good point. I have rarely been oppressed in my life even though I've dealt with a lot of oppression. I would not submit. So I guess I don't have a lot of patience for women that have.Its pretty much what I expected.

Yes, we only have what she has said to make some informed guesses as to her character, but that's true of anyone we don't know personally. This woman has put her lifestyle out there for public consumption and we are free to analyse this as we see fit.

I agree it is her life. I don't think anyone here is making a case that her life should not be her own to live as she wishes. The case being made is that she lives the life she does because her choices were restricted, probably from a very early age. It is this restriction of choice that needs to be lifted and, for that to happen, the traditions associated with gender-based roles in all aspects of society have to be got rid of.

No. But neither do the women judging her. Its a typical pattern of so called feminists to sit around like mad hens name calling and berating her choices and then calling for women to be treated with authority and respect. Hypocrisy at its finest.

So my original question was valid then, you just don't know how to answer it. Thanks.

But do you know this? Are you certain that this woman had her choices restricted? What makes you say this?


See this is exactly why it pisses me off. Because basically what its about it JUDGING the woman based on the individuals preconceived notion. Its the same thing that I find happens with Hijabi.

American women will look at them and say "Oppressed" they will insist that these women were brainwashed from a young age to think that they must wear the hijab. They insist that they know this woman better than she knows herself.

They insist that she is somehow unable to see the big picture but what they don't see is that she has seen the big picture and rejected it. She's not blind, she's not brainwashed. She just prefers to live a life where she is not judged by her body and commodity as a woman.

Many women who reject the Western freedoms do so because they reject becoming a number in the Capitalistic machine. They also reject the way women are sexualized and turned into sexual creatures.

In our society for example women begin to fade in power as she loses her sex appeal. Plastic Surgery is indicative of the lifestyle of freedom that women are indoctrinated into the US.

We say freedom. They say oppression. They chose to live a life that focuses on character rather than appearance. And feminists insist they are oppressed.

Anyway.

Wooweee

I ranted enough to make up for the last few months.

Sure two points to you!!! Happy!

Given the amount of oppression/repression women in general have had to put up with, and are still putting up with, I'm surprised the backlash against the continuing male dominance in traditionalist society isn't greater. You only have to look at the violence fomented by racial inequality as a comparison to see that women are generally acting with restraint and dignity in the battle for equality and freedom of choice. Hypocrisy, I don't think so. Outrage, most definitely.