The Book of Revelation was written sometime around 96 CE in Asia Minor. The author was probably a Christian from Ephesus known as "John the Elder." According to the Book, this John was on the island of Patmos, not far from the coast of Asia Minor, "because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 1.10). This has traditionally been taken to mean that he had been exiled there as a martyr for his Christian faith. Some scholars, however, have suggested that it might have been a regular stop on a preaching circuit. Next, the author says, "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet" (Rev. 1.11), and this voice tells him to write what he is about to see. This begins the "revelatory" vision that is at the center of the book.
Do you believe in what is written in the book can you understand what it means many have tried to decode it but don't understand its true meaning many believe that we are in the end times that Gods wrath on all wickedness will come and a judgement day is set in a 1000 years after Jesus returns with fire and brimstone and with Angels destroy all evil to make a new Heaven and Earth for it has come to pass.

For me what is striking about the book is that the events all seem to circuvent around the Nation of Israel, even up to the battle of Armageddon. Had Israel not come back as a Nation in 1948, none of these events could transpire. It makes one think!

I don't believe in any supposed "end times" prophecies. I don't think God designed things to work that way. Regarding the Book of Revelations in particular, I think it was indeed intended to be a legitimate and great revelation. However, because of not only the limitations of John's understanding but also because of accidental loss and deliberate tampering, what we have remaining of this great revelation is not sufficient or reliable enough to put it to good use. The following are two quotes from the Urantia Book regarding the Apostle John and the Book of Revelations.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is a message to all Churches. This message was encoded, meaning that symbols were put in place of actual prophecies, to present a certain message along with their fulfillments. The Jewish readers would have understood the meanings behind the symbols because they were references from the Old Testament.

Interesting stuff that book...
Already passed, we already live in the new world, happened ages ago.

Revelations can be a difficult book to understand. A few things I have uncovered in this book is that...

-WW3 will start when Russia (the bear) moves and tries to attack Israel
-Russia will be destroyed in the mountains of Israel
-The great whore church will be the front in orchestrating people for the anti-christ
-Those who arent raptured will believe that the missing Christians were taken up by UFO's...(satan is called the price of the powers of the air)
-asian and middle-eastern countires will try to attack Israel in the battle of Armageddon and will be destroyed by Christ and his army of raptured saints.
-The anti-christ will come out of Europe, and through the Catholic church.
-The one-world government will make only buying food and rations possible by taking the mark of the beast in the right hand or forehead.
-The anti-christ will be good looking, powerful, and a military genius.

These are just a few things many people have uncovered from revelations. The rabbit hole gets a LOT deeper than this....

This book consists of an alleged revelation from Jesus to John, describing through convoluted metaphors and obscure imagery what was supposed to occur at the end of times when Jesus would return to do battle with the Antichrist and Satan.
Throughout history believers have struggled to identify the figures and events in Revelations with figures and events occurring in history.
The book was probably written sometime around the end of the reign of emperor Domitian (81-96 CE), and the Antichrist found in the descriptions was at the time popularly identified with NERO .
Yes, the anti-christ was NERO people !

The author of Revelations was writing about events of his day. The "Beast"--his number 666--was in reference to Nero, who, it was feared, was to return from the east with a powerful army and persecute the early Church/Christians.

Just an aside here ... One of the earliest fragments of Revelations ever found (3rd-4th century) contains the "Beast" reference. However, the number ascribed to the "Beast" is not 666, but 616 ... and even 665! Very interesting to say the least.

End Time Delusions by Steve Wohlberg
http://www.amazon.com/End-Time-Delusions-S...4347&sr=1-1

A History of the End of the World: How the Most Controversial Book in the Bible Changed the Course of Western Civilization by Jonathan Kirsch
http://www.amazon.com/History-End-World-Co...5213&sr=1-2

Most kindly,

Sean

For those interested in reading some information authored in 1908, "Some Answered Questions" by `Abdu'l-Bahá'
a free pdf of it is here: Some Answered Questions Zipped PDF
He details all the prophecies in the bible and all other scriptures.

The book of revelations is about the Roman empire not present day.

If that were so, there would be no sin.

the bible was writen by man not god so they could and still try to control people
it is simply not true as a religious book
maybe some history but thats it
no god
no jesus
ALL MADE UP!!!!!!

The book of Revelation is where I have done some studying. As I said earlier, a first or second century Jew could pick up the book of Revelation and derive messages from OT references. The symbolical references were for the readers to think back to OT context and compare it to the scheme and context of the messages in Revelation.

For example:

Revelation 12 identified a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. This was an Old Testament reference to Joseph's dream in Genesis 2:9,10. This is identified in verse 10 as the Jacob, his wife, and his twelve sons. Thus the woman is the nation of Israel.

Being in labor and about to give birth is also a scriptural reference; regarded to the nation of Israel being in service to Gentiles and without a Messiah to deliver them:

Micah 4:9,10 "Now why do you cry aloud?
Is there no king in your midst?
Has your counselor perished?
For pangs have seized you like a woman in labor.

Be in pain, and labor to bring forth,
O daughter of Zion,
Like a woman in birth pangs.
For now you shall go forth from the city,
You shall dwell in the field,
And to Babylon you shall go.
There you shall be delivered;
There the Lord will redeem you
From the hand of your enemies."

So, the Jewish readers of Revelation would have understood this woman to be the covenant people of God before the Messiah Jesus of Nazareth came to save them. Really, the Revelation of Jesus Christ was written to Churches regarding their faithfulness to God through their testimony. For those who don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah and God, I don't think its possible for them to understand the symbolism and wording; because the message is not intended for them. Things that God reveals is for the sake of His people. If they reject God, how then will they believe His Word? Would it not take action on part of the demonstration of faith in Jesus Christ in every Church?

I have a question for you. If every Church demonstrated selflessness and virtue, unwavering in their confidence in Jesus Christ and their testimony of Him; speaking of the great love of God that went so far as to Him manifesting in the flesh to redeem our fallen humanity back to everlasting life of peace and love with Him in His presence, would you still then reject God?

If you do reject Christ, you run the risk of rejecting eternal life. If you do accept Christ, you run the risk of missing out on a good life here on earth. Is it this cross-road that most people are at? Because Christ taught nothing that was harmful to humanity, yet humanity goes on an all out war against Christianity every day.

However, religion isn't appalling to humanity because Christ doesn't exist and it was all made up. Religion is appalling to civilized mankind because of the dark past of those that embraced the religion. In our minds, we keep religion in the same mindset and fail to search out the truth in our day. I'm not trying to convert you. I just don't see what would cause you to go out of your way to state to religious people that Jesus was made up.

Really?! He stated families will be divided because of him, and those who deny him will be cast into hell ... And you think that not harmful?!



Most people claim to be of the Christian faith ... and you are being persecuted how and by whom ...?

Sean

what makes you think that?




and i agree


well in 2012 the mayans said the world would come to an end. i think this is somewhere near the time Jesus will come back. however, i know that is not predictable, but still...

But you don't see Christ came to save people from eternal hell. Naturally some within a family would believe and be saved, whilst others would reject his message and thus in deep trouble.

I do agree that humanity is not on an all out war against Christianity though, I would say many people see the errors contained within the Bible and reject it as a whole. What these people don't realise is God went on to send his message one last time and it has remained uncorrupted.

Good morning M1. He supposedly came to both save and condemn. This is not harmful? Believe in me ... or be tortured in hell for eternity!



Again, this is not harmful?!

Sean

"WW3 will start when Russia (the bear) moves and tries to attack Israel"

How do you figure this?

No, the world itself is harmful to humanity; with its aspirations of selfish and indulgent lifestyles, religious wars, biological weapons, sexual promiscuity, theft, murder, gangs, ect. The list goes on. Christ told us that if we follow His teachings, the world would react violently to it, because the social and economic businesses do not profit from people who resist the things they advertise.



You say that most people claim to be of the Christian faith? What are the characteristics of a person of the Christian faith?

Its mostly Churches that get the persecution: being burned down, shot up, vandalized, robbed, slandered, ect.

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/rapturealert.gif

History of the Rapture Doctrine

This glamorized dispensational doctrine was never heard of in Christianity until the 1850s!

Following are two quotes from respected church writers who wrote earlier this century. They openly questioned the “any minute rapture” doctrine.

Alexander Reese says, "About 1830 a new school arose within the fold of Premillennialism that sought to overthrow what, since the Apostolic Age, have been considered by all premillennialist as established results, and to institute in their place a series of doctrines that had never been heard of before. The school I refer to is that of ‘The Brethren’ or ‘Plymouth Brethren,’ founded by J. N. Darby.” 1

Robert Cameron says,

“Now, be it remembered, that prior to that date, no hint of any approach to such belief can be found in any Christian literature from Polycarp down.... Surely, a doctrine that finds no exponent or advocate in the whole history and literature of Christendom, for eighteen hundred years after the founding of the Church - a doctrine that was never taught by a Father or Doctor of the Church in the past - that has no standard Commentator or Professor of the Greek language in any Theological School until the middle of the Nineteenth century, to give it approval, and that is without a friend, even to mention its name amongst the orthodox teachers or the heretical sects of Christendom - such a fatherless and motherless doctrine, when it rises to the front, demanding universal acceptance, ought to undergo careful scrutiny before it is admitted and tabulated as part of ‘the faith once for all delivered unto the saints.”2

The doctrine of a rapture, then tribulation, then millennia was not taught prior to the 1850’s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

2. How did the Rapture-Tribulation doctrine begin?

There are at least three "Christian" books on this subject that are fairly comprehensive on the subject:

(1) Whose Right It Is by Kelly Varner published by Destiny Image;

(2) Seventy Weeks: The Historical Alternative by Robert Caringola; and

(3) The Incredible Cover-Up by Dave MacPherson.

These books are extremely well documented giving proof of exactly where and how the rapture tribulation-millennia doctrine began.

A brief synopsis:

Left BehindThe doctrine appears to have begun in Scotland with a vision by a 15-year-old girl. The girl’s name was Margaret MacDonald, born January 14, 1815. Margaret was not a member of any church. She and her brothers visited some different churches and held some house meetings, but were not traditional members of any one group. Margaret was a semi-invalid, confined to a sick bed and supposedly experienced frequent fevers.

One day in 1830, Margaret had a vision about the Church being caught away before a time of tribulation. Margaret's’s vision was an escape vision. Before long, copies of her vision were circulated as men began to preach this rapture idea as gospel. Naturally it was preached as “any minute” and that was in the 1850’s. Soon after, John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren began to campaign the doctrine. Darby came to the United States in 1864 where the doctrine greatly influenced the Presbyterians and Baptists, most notably influenced was a Bible student and author, Cyrus Ingerson Scofield .

Darby’s notes on the rapture were placed into the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909 and became in the minds of most Christians as if they were apostolic doctrine. Since that time the doctrine has also been placed in the Dake Bible, Ryre Bible, Larkin Bible, etc. A doctrine never preached prior to the 1850’s nor preached by any apostle suddenly became a fundamental gospel truth.

Interestingly enough, the Plymouth Brethren, Presbyterians, and Baptists do not believe in visions and prophecy. Yet, that was the way this doctrine originated.

Knowledgeable dispensationalists that have studied the above will acknowledge that the doctrine was not taught anywhere prior to the 1850’s. J. Dwight Pentecost acknowledges this, but says,

“It was not until the last century that the field of Eschatology became a matter to which the mind of the church was turned.”3

Pentecost admits that the rapture-tribulation doctrine was not taught by the apostles in the first century. He justifies that by saying that people were not interested in eschatology until this century. That is not true. The earliest recorded writings express extreme interest in end-time teachings. None the less, Margaret's’ vision and prophecy is the foundation of what many believe today.

Alexander Reese said, “About 1830 a new school arose within the fold of Premillennialism that sought to overthrow what, since the Apostolic Age, have been considered by all premillennialist as established results, and to institute in their place a series of doctrines that had never been heard of before. The school I refer to is that of ‘The Brethren’ or ‘Plymouth Brethren,’ founded by J. N. Darby.” 4

What did this “new school” that Reese referred to teach that was so different? What “series of doctrines” not taught since the apostles and never heard before was Reese speaking about? It’s the dispensational doctrine initiated by the Plymouth Brethren.

The dispensational doctrine goes something like this. According to them, we are living in the church age of Laodicea (Rev 3:14). It’s simply the last church before the rapture of Revelation 4:1. Just prior to the rapture the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and animal sacrifice instituted. The Lord comes and raptures the church. For seven years the antichrist rules and a great tribulation takes place. At the end of the seven years, the Lord returns again and builds another temple from which he rules from the throne of David for exactly 1,000 years. According to Ezekiel, there will be animal sacrifices performed and the law reinstituted. After the 1,000 years, the wicked are resurrected in a second resurrection and the great white throne judgment takes place. The devil and all wicked people are cast into the lake of fire forever. Above natural Jerusalem the heavenly Jerusalem will orbit as would a satellite.

Nearly all that was a “new school” never taught by the apostles and never heard before. Can you imagine the apostle Paul preaching the reinstitution of circumcision (law)? What about Jesus acknowledging animal blood after he gave his? Or Christ rebuilding the temple after he had said he would make it desolate?

Matthew Henry says,

“That the Lord Jesus will come down from heaven in all the pomp and power of the upper world (v. 16): The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout. He ascended into heaven after his resurrection, and passed through these material heavens into the third heaven, which must retain him till the restitution of all things; and then he will come again, and appear in his glory. He will descend from heaven into this our air, v. 17. The appearance will be with pomp and power, with a shout-- the shout of a king, and the power and authority of a mighty king and conqueror, with the voice of the archangel; an innumerable company of angels will attend him. Perhaps one, as general of those hosts of the Lord, will give notice of his approach, and the glorious appearance of this great Redeemer and Judge will be proclaimed and ushered in by the trump of God. For the trumpet shall sound, and this will awaken those that sleep in the dust of the earth, and will summon all the world to appear.”

Prior to the 1850’s this passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 was not taught as an escape.

I should probably note that Matthew Henry was born in 1662 and died in 1714. He did not know of any rapture before the tribulation. He did not know it because it is not in the Bible. The doctrine of the rapture escape was from a “new doctrine” that came along after Matthew Henry. His commentaries are considered a standard addition to the personal libraries of nearly anyone really interested in studying the Bible. They are widely sold, in stock in most Christian book stores and readily available from several publishers and since it is in the Public Domain, can be downloaded for free online. 6

Now it is not my intention with this rant to convey that I believe in some other Eschatological order of things. What I am trying to bring out is that the "oh so popular" dispensational rapture scenario has nothing to do with historic Christianity. Anyone who really investigates the background of the doctrine knows this fact. I am sure that Billy Graham, Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe and Tim LaHaye are well aware of the thin ice they have been skating on for the last several decades while they aggressively promote this modern day theological invention.

Now I may be a bit cynical, but once I understood the weak foundation all this "rapture - second coming" teaching is standing on, it really shook my faith. Since the bible was used to prove this complicated end time pageantry, I wondered what other teachings had been grafted into my brain that were just not historically defensible. If I had been so thoroughly misled about this teaching, what else had I been misled on? I also wondered what could be the motivation of continuing to teach such nonsense once these facts and fallacies became known to them. I am sure these men are aware of these things. Could it be that the popularization of Dispensational End Times Theology is a good way to sell books or better yet, to get people into the cult and ultimately increase donations?

"People love to be humbugged, robbed and ruled and love the people who humbug, rob and rule them." P. T. Barnum

I was always told that the things I was taught to believe about the rapture were only things clearly explained in the Bible. Later in life, when I really started to study, I discovered that most of what I believed was various systems of interpretation that some man somewhere had "discovered" or rather, made up.

95 percent of the Christians learn by repeating like parrots. 5 percent know what they know by proving their imagination.

What do you think?

fyi -

What's not in the Book of Revelation?

Sometimes people are surprised that when they actually read the Book of Revelation of what's not there. Things that are typically associated with end time prophecies and typical language actually is not found in Revelation at all. ... Notably there's no reference whatsoever to the Antichrist. That terminology only shows up in two places in the entire New Testament. One time in First John and one time in the Second John, but not in the Book of Revelation itself. The other terminology that [is] sometimes thought to be in Revelation is the Rapture, that is, the snatching away of Christians just at the last moment before the Tribulation occurs. That, likewise, is not actually in the Book of Revelation itself, that actually comes from a passage in First Thessalonians. And so what we have to realize is that in some interpretations of the Book of Revelation--in fact most of them--the interpretation is created by bringing things into the Book of Revelation, into its scheme, that are not actually there and reading them as a kind of a jigsaw puzzle of eschatology and last judgment.

excellent peice on the Book of Revelations-

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...revelation.html

ps - not to forget the fact that jesus after his resurection , ( if he did exist) told his diciples in front of him that he would return during thier lifetime - he didn't.

not true. He said that the kingdom would come before they tasted death, and indeed it did. This just goes back to what you said about interpretation. You are right in the aspect that a lot of our modern ideas about Revelation do not agree with its original context. However, the book of Revelation doesn't just pertain to its own generation, but to every generation of the Church until the return of Christ.

This is one of the more illogical conclusions I have ever seen drawn from scripture, and there are many of them. Jesus taught that those who believed and followed him would have everlasting life. He also taught that those who did not, would die and exist no more. (The concept of everlasting hell is not found in the bible, and certainly was not taught by jesus. It is a comparatively recent greek concept grafted on to christianity by the church, centuries after the gospels were written.) He taught that, in families, some would follow him, and some would not.

Not one of these statements is harmful, even if the literal truth. Jesus is just demonstrating his knowledge of human nature, and of the laws of god. Without god, the families would be separated by death, anyway. With jesus, some, including many members of some families, will enjoy eternal life together.

Exactly where do you see any harm in any of those those statements, unless of course, you fear people knowing the truth.

In general terms you can gain a lot from a close personal reading of Revelation. (A more accurate chronology of the end time than most people have is one example.) However, without some expert help on biblical prophecy, imagery/symbols and time lines a full understanding is difficult to come to. Certainly, you must read Daniel and some of the other prophetic books of the bible, which lead /fit into Revelation.

Obviously alot of you choose to interpret the bible literally despite the evidence to the contrary that this is not a reliable way to do so. Others choose to make out of it what they choose or had others interpret these scriptures for them.
There are numerous problems wth this

Liberal Christians who use this approach to biblical interpretation view the Bible as having been written by very human, fallible authors. The writers were motivated by a desire to promote their own religious, spiritual, and political beliefs and/or those of their faith group. Thus, the Bible reflects the evolution of religious and cultural thought over about a ten century time span.

Some beliefs which are common to those using this interpretive technique include:

The authors of the Bible were very human and often made mistakes in their writing.
Biblical writers attempted to explain their beliefs about God and his will for humanity. Being fallible, they sometimes wrote material that was contrary to the will of God.
Some parts of the Bible should be ignored and are not suitable as a guide to modern living. Typical examples are: laws regulating slavery, restricting the roles of women, ordering genocide, torturing prisoners, allowing the rape of female prisoners of war, requiring the murder of religious and sexual minorities, requiring the burning of some prostitutes alive, and many other activities considered profoundly immoral by today's ethical standards.
The authors were limited by the tribal nature of their culture, their theocratic or dictatorial political structure, their lack of scientific knowledge, etc. Human rights were not highly valued in biblical times. With few exceptions, women experienced a low status in the culture.
Some forged passages have been added by unknown authors since the original texts were written. Accidental and intentional errors have occurred in copying.
Entire books in the Bible have been written many decades or even centuries after the apparent author died. This particularly true of some of the epistles. Four of the Epistles -- 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus -- all state that they were written by Paul. However, they were actually composed 35 to 85 years after Paul's death.
Other books were attributed to mythical characters. The hero Daniel, who was supposed to have been born circa 620 BCE, is probably a mythical character. The book of Daniel was actually written circa 164 BCE, almost half a millennium later.
The Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible were not written by Moses circa 1450 BCE. It was written by four anonymous authors or groups of authors generally referred to as J, E, P and D, and later redacted by "R."
The Bible contains much material copied from neighboring Pagan cultures and pre-Abrahamic beliefs. Three examples are the pair of creation stories, the flood of Noah, and the tower of Babel.
Some biblical passages are religious propaganda, and not historically reliable. The gospels' text which blamed "the Jews" for the execution of Jesus is one example. Those passages in the Bible are much more closely linked to conflicts between Jews and Christians some 40 to 70 years after Jesus' death, than to real historical events at the time of Jesus' ministry.
Jesus actually said only a very few of the words attributed to him in the Gospels. Jesus spoke in Aramaic. The Christian Scriptures (New Testament) were written in Greek. The KJV and NIV versions of the Bible are thus translations from Greek into English of words which were earlier translated from Aramaic into Greek.
Very few of the words or acts by Jesus in the Gospel of John refer to real events.
Bible passages have to be interpreted according to the beliefs of the writers and the culture in which they lived. They may or may not be valid today.
The early Christian church was divided into many differing traditions: (e.g. Jewish, Pauline, and Gnostic Christianity). The books of the Bible were chosen in the fourth century CE from among about 50 gospels, hundreds of epistles, many infancy stories, many books of revelation etc. They were mainly chosen on the basis of their conformity with orthodox Christian beliefs as they existed at the time. Another consideration was whether the book was written by an Apostle or by someone closely associated with an Apostle. The church leaders who selected books for the official canon were often mistaken in their understanding of exactly who had written the books. Non-conforming books were suppressed, and sometimes lost forever. Yet they contained much valuable material about the primitive Christian movement. Some of the books purportedly written by Paul were written by unknown authors many decades after Paul's death.
It is helpful to study the books of the Christian Scriptures in chronological order. One can detect how particular beliefs -- e.g. the virgin birth -- apparently developed through time.
Modern versions of the Bible are reasonably accurate translations of the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, but still reflect the prejudices of the translators, and the belief systems of the religious institutions which sponsored them. Older translations, like the KJV, are less reliable because their translators had less complete knowledge of Hebrew, and had access to fewer ancient manuscripts.


Recent findings of the physical, social and medical sciences have shown that some parts of the Bible cannot be considered accurate. (e.g. the creation stories, mental illness caused by demon infestation, concepts of the structure of the universe, creation of rainbows, origin of various languages, etc).



A great source: http://www.religioustolerance.org

I agree. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is painted with Old Testament references. The beast with the ten horns was taken from the book of Daniel. The symbolism of the lamp stands and fig trees come from the book of Zechariah. The drying up of the Euphrates and the crossing over of the kings of the East comes from the book of Isaiah. The Four Horsemen come from the book of Zechariah and are concepts drawn from the book of Jeremiah. The description of the woman in Revelation 12 is taken from Joseph's second dream in the book of Genesis. The child born that would rule the nations with a rod of iron was taken from one of David's Psalms. The entire book has references to Old Testament Scriptures all over the place. Also, quite interestingly, it quotes the book of Enoch in chapter 14 regarding the blood rising to a horses bridle.

There's hardly anything illoogical about it. Jesus made it clear that families would be divided so forth and so on.

Matthew 19:29 (New American Standard Bible) 29"And (A)everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother [a]or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal"

Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Nice god!



Centuries after ...? They certainly added to it during the Middle Ages, but eternal damnation is in the Gospels and still taught by the Church--particularly by Evangelicals.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.-- Matthew 13:41-42

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. -- Matthew 25:41

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." -- John 15:6

"The Lord Jesus ... in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God ... who shall be punished with everlasting destruction." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God ...he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." -- Revelation 14:10-11

"The fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." -- Revelation 21:8

Does Hell exist?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/hell.html



And it, as shown above, would cause strife and misery--and hell!

Sean

That I agree with.



It doesn't help what Jesus said about dividing families. If you break down the family unit, what happens? You have the things you stated above. And it doesn't help that Jesus said this regarding family:

Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

I'm sorry ... but that's harmful!



I'm not sure I understand.



Those who follow the teachings of Jesus.



And of the hundreds of thousands of churches (if not more) ... this happens how often? Once in a blue moon! And usually by dumb youngsters who also vandalize everything else they can get their hands on--like my van!

Sean

Please show me some evidence of this. It's not that i don't believe you-this is all new to me. Just curious.

(in some Islamic countries ,yes. Is this what you mean ?)

From the Oxford Companion to the Bible:

... John wrote to illuminate his own situation. Later, when his specific circumstances were forgotten, some took Revelation as a literal prediction of the future; others, in reaction against crude literalism, especially with regard to the millennium, interpreted it allegorically and saw the millennium as the present age of the church. In the twelfth century, Joachim of Fiore drew from Revelation (along with the rest of scripture) an understanding of the whole movement of history; his vision came to be widely influential. At various times, people have seen Revelation as a veiled picture of the subsequent history of the world or of the church, placing themselves at the penultimate moment and identifying beast and harlot with current bogeys, whether emperor or pope, church or sect. But it is now clear that John wrote for a past situation and that to look for literal fulfillments in the events of our day is misguided ... --Professor John Sweet

Sean

Sean, we can't present anything to the deaf and blind.

They do not need eyes or ears. They have faith.

If you show them evidence they will outright ignore it or play ostrich......can't see you.......can't hear you !!!

Or pull the trump card that is called "satans deception"....of course all evidence,logic or reason are tricks.

It's called a game of "Let's pretend"

The god box is securely locked-no reason or logic can get in. The keys to the lock are lost.

But I'm still hunting for them................I need to save someone !!

I know. Faith always trumps facts. But, like you, I will not stop either. Hopefully somebody out there has an open ear.

Sean

exactly. logic , common sense , reason and fact are things they tend to shy away from.

and go back to a book written by various men over centuries with various beliefs and agendas.

proof in point - they claim God is a jealous God. this can not be. jealousy stems from insecurity , a human fraility , a deficit. Also jealousy being one of the 7 deadly sins.

I'm not an athiest , but I think religions of all types know squat about God.

Exactly why would an all powerful god be jealous ? HE'S GOD !!
There are even human-beings (not many) that are NOT jealous.
How can I or someone else respect and look up to a supposed GOD that has every negative human character trait I abhor ???

Not one has given me a sensible explanation if one at all !!!
If you can't answer this I cannot accept nor respect your belief in this monster child called Jehovah.
(hmm...that's an insult even to children)

I can understand believing in a god (such as a Deist) does but not this nasty tyrant not alone worship him and claim he loves us.. It is..sick...perverted...ignorant.....naive...wishful...sad...this is blind faith

John did not just write to illuminate his own situation. That proof is illuminated in the very Revelation in which Jesus, not John, said this: "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" - Revelation 1:19

The messages in this book was meant to cover the past (things John had seen), the present (the things that are), and the future until Christ's return and God sets up His kingdom (things which shall be hereafter.)
It is misguided to look only in our modern situation for fulfillments of the prophecies in the book of Revelation. However, it is not misguided to look for the fulfillments throughout history.
But I guess that many will be misguided if they do not have the Gospel foremost in their minds when interpreting. It is my belief that I stand by that one who does not follow Christ or understand the Gospel cannot possibly interpret the symbols in this book correctly.

Save someone from what? Funny, isn't this 'saving' attitude the same attitude that causes non-Christians to resent Christians in the first place? Is it then correct to display the same attitude in an opposite direction? Practice what you preach.

Did you ever humble yourself enough to consider that maybe you don't quite understand everything and thus it appears illogical to you? By saying that something is illogical, you place your understanding as a standard (which is condescending), and thus should be quite an authority in logic on the Gospel if you are going to use the same to prove how illogical Christians are. It doesn't just go one way. You can't set a double standard without living up to it yourself.

Logic, common sense, and reason have not always been around and have been continuously subject to interpretation and modification throughout history; the history that many who seek proof shy away from. Many logical people these days shy away from topics such as philosophical history and the double standard that every social habitat places on ethics, morality, logic, truth, and necessity.

Revelation was not written by various men over centuries, it was written down by one man with only one belief and agenda. This belief and agenda are clearly marked in the first chapter of Revelation. Read it thoroughly if you want.

Proof in point - God is a jealous God, jealousy is not a sin. ENVY is a sin. Jealousy is a personal emotion that comes when what you have is being taken from you or your possession is being challenged. Envy is when someone has something that you want. BIG DIFFERENCE.

AGAIN as I said, learn the Gospel correctly before you start saying what is 'logical or reasonable.' If you don't understand, IT WILL ALWAYS SEEM ILLOGICAL. That is common sense.

And I must agree, we know only a portion of who and what God is. That much he has revealed to us. The Revelation of Jesus Christ shows this.

let's take a leap shall we ?

1. a feeling of discontent or covetousness with regard to another's advantages, success, possessions, etc.


A feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another.

—Synonyms 1. enviousness. Envy and jealousy are very close in meaning. .

envy

c.1280, from O.Fr. envie, from L. invidia "envy, jealousy," from invidus "envious," from invidere "envy," earlier "look at (with malice), cast an evil eye upon," from in- "upon" + videre "to see" (see vision).

so shall we say God felt envy ? still sounds like a human fraility. Jealousy and Envy - same vein. at any rate = not a very God like quality.

yes you are right - jealousy is not a sin ( by a hairs breath) it is an insecure childish reaction.

I think you are missing the mark as far as understanding God. It was not God that was made in our image, but us who were made in God's image. To put this more simply: God desires relationships with us that RELATE to us. But it is not Him who is relating to us as much as it is us that relate to Him. Let me know if that is confusing and I'll try to explain it easier.

And that comes from a modern dictionary for a word that was translated from Hebrew into English. If you've ever learned another language you will know that sometimes words don't translate correctly. And if you knew about how languages develop you would know that the meaning of words can change.

The illogicality was to blame religion for this. Families "break up" over lots of philosophical issues and even come to war over issues such as slavery as well as religion. I guess if you do not believe in a religion that is your choice, but you can hardly blame the religion because some member of your family chooses to follow it.


Nice god!

All these quotes simply point to the fact that people will divide over religion, as will nations. Again ,if you do not personally accept the idea of religion, that is your choice, but religion seems to be a natural human evolutionary response, if it is not a direct product of a real god. In either case, again, it is illogical to blame the religion. Different people exercise their free choice in response to life circumstances/environments in different ways



Actually jesus/the gospels said people who died would go to the grave and rest . At death the soul enters a sleep like state which exists until the resurrection and judgement. If some evangelicals are still preaching this they either have it wrong because they accepted the catholic version (as they accepted the catholic churches authority to change the commandment to worship on the sabbath) or they still are not working on an accurate and contemporary translation of the bible.



Some of these quotes were mistranslated while others were simply misread. Yes at the resurrection of the sinners they will be thrown into a lake of fire, but their torment will not be eternal. for some it will be momentary for others a longer period. The greek word eon means a considerable but unspecified time period. The bible often refers to events within a human lifetime as everlasting or lasting for eternity eg samuel's time of temple service. So we should not interpret everlasting just as it sounds to modern ears.
Most of the qotes from revelation are part of a descriptive process of what will happen to the resurrected sinners after they have had a 1000 years on earth under satans rule. When the heavenly city returns to earth, all these sinners, including the fallen angels and satan, will be cast into a lake of fire and the earth itself will be cleansed by a rain of fire, before being recreated as the new earth, onto which the now immortal resurrected "non sinners" will move from their residence of 1000 years in the heavenly city. They will live for ever. The sinners will die for ever.

QUOTE

This ones simple. Just imagine yourself describing the scene. The smoke going up for ever and ever does not refer to time but distance. While some of these interpretations may be open to debate, we have to come back to what jesus said and to general biblical context. If a verse clearly contradicts basic principles then it has probably been either mistranslated or misunderstood over the last 2000 years

QUOTE

Again it says nothing about a time. They die. For the wages of sin are death

Does Hell exist?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/hell.html

I appreciate this is neither a common viewpoint nor a mainstream church one. However it is based on contemporary translations which are as accurate as possible and formed by people who actually have spent the last century going back to the words of the bible for scriptural truth They have no debt to older religions or beliefs and try to build all their beliefs on the same understandings as christians of the first few centuries AD. Their best source for this remains an accurate translation of the bible.
The bold type used means nothing except that i was struggling to edit the quotes on this and obviously made a few errorswhich I do not have the time to learn how to undo.


Sean
The "you" used in this post does not address or refer specifically to the person with whom I am debating, but to any reader in general.

I was thinking more along the sides of U.S.

Here is a link about how the government has intervened with Church sermons in America concerning tax-exemption. http://www.dornaslighthouse.com/spies.html

Here is a link about the government tried to sue a Church for its sermon on taxes. http://www.rense.com/ufo6/religiouspers.htm

Here is a link about the media portrayal of Christians. http://www.lifeandtimesblog.com/2007/06/ch...merica-our.html

Here is a link about an appeal to the government to stand against religious persecution instead of remaining neutral to not interfere with the Constitution.

Here is a link about the world wide persecution of Christians that have reached a dreary high of 200 million. http://www.baptiststandard.com/2000/11_13/...ersecution.html

Here is a link about a couple robbed upon leaving a Church. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn41...16/ai_n16225832

Here is a link about Churches being threatened, burned, or vandalized. http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/RINVol..._Conspiracy.htm

Here is a link about how taxing Churches is religiously unlawful. This is a topic all on its own. http://www.infidels.org/library/historical...h_taxation.html

Here is a link about how many Methodist Churches were burned, statistically speaking. http://gbgm-umc.org/advance/church-burnings/methstats.stm

Here is a link about Churches vandalized, burned, or threatened in other countries. http://www.geocities.com/alifuru67/noframe/ternatepic5.htm

Here is a link about Christians being persecuted by many governments. http://www.markswatson.com/Persecution.html

There are so many more. I really meant to draw emphasis on the political and social persecution in America as my primary example. There are also numerous churches persecuted, hate crimes performed against Christians, open slander of religious people and organizations. There is a double standard going on. The Media and entertainers can openly mock and insult Christians. But at any time the Christians call them out, they call it religious persecution. Its as if Americans are allowed to freely express their doubt in Jesus, but are warned against expressing their certainty in Jesus. That isn't equal rights. That is rights to the secular and prohibitions to the religious. Of course, I know that a group of Christians with no organizational affiliation can go in public and talk with each other about Jesus. But they are warned against advertising their faith or their Church. Yet, it is okay to advertise violence, immorality, prejudices, sensuality, anti-American slogans, blatant disrespect for authoritative figures in office; all these things that Churches aim to speak against. I get the impression these days that many hate the respect of religious organizations for the main point that they don't want someone to speak out against the heinous things the do and justify as a norm and trend. This is just my opinion though.

After listening to Revelation over a 100 times on a tape player, at work I started to understand it. The problem with revelation is that it is a series of disconnected visions. They are given to you in the order that it was revealed to the author. But from the context of what is said in the visions, you can see that they are not in chronological order. A vision at the beginning of the book might refer to something that will happen in the middle or the end of the period in question. [The period in Revelation that is prophesied about is the last 7 years till the end when Jesus returns with an army of angels to take over the world by force at the battle of armageddon.] A vision in the middle of the book might refer to something at the beginning of the period in question. Etc. From the context of what is written, the 7 seals, trumpets, and vials, all go to the end of the 7 year period. They overlap one another. If you try to think that the events in Revelation are in the proper chronological order as they will happen it will seem like there are contradictions, so I believe that is not the proper way to understand it. You need to note where one vision ends and another begins.
The events in Revelation seem to happen like this:
The future World dictator, the Antichrist will come to power.
Ten nations from the European Union are going to give their military and political power to the Antichrist. He is going to make a seven year treaty with Israel. This will start the final seven years of the end of the world and the countdown to Armageddon.
The Antichrist is then going to try to conquer the world militarily. Probably starting off with nuclear war, aimed mostly against the Muslim nations of the Middle East. This will go on for about a year. The devastations of Nuclear War will follow: - famine, radiation sickness, forests burned up, many dead. Then natural disasters, as punishment on men for their sins will happen. A meteorite or astoroid falling into the sea, plague, poisoned water, and one third of all men killed. Earthquakes, Large hail stones. Three and a half years before the end, the European forces under control of the Antichrist are going to march into Israel and take it over. Another inquisition will start. Jews and real Christians are going to be killed. Most of the Jews will escape to Petra and surroundings. The final punishments of natural disasters from God, worse than the first, will happen. Sores, plague, darkness [possibly from dust or smoke blocking the sun] men scorched with great heat, great earthquake, etc.
The armies of the East are going to march westward to fight with the European armies, and they will meet in a place in Israel called Armageddon. [The plains of Megiddo]
Now comes Biblical Armageddon right at the end.
The Lord Jesus is going to return with an army of angels piloting UFOs, and a UFO invasion is going to happen. The real born again Christians are going to be levitated up into the air to meet Jesus and this UFO invasion, along with the dead bodies of saints that will rise out of the graves. These armies gathered at Armageddon are going to be destroyed.- That destruction is biblical Armageddon. UFOs are going to abduct people that practice sin, people that heard about Jesus and never accepted Him as Saviour, and these sinners are going to thrown into the fire or hell. They'll suffer forever.
The real Christians are going to rule and reign with Christ on the Earth for a thousand years of peace, in which Satan will be bound and he can't tempt anyone. After the 1000 years are up Satan will again tempt men and the wicked will attack the saints; the wicked will be destroyed. Then a city will be placed onthe Earth 1500 miles square and high; like a big cube. The streets will be of gold and the walls lined with precious stones. The saints will live in this bright city, New Jerusalem, and be happy forevermore. The sinners that were not Christians will be cast out into outer darkness and a lake of fire to be tormented forevermore. That is what Revelation seems to be about.

That is if you interpret Revelation based on the futurist interpretation, which did not come about until the late 16th century as a counter-reformation against the Protestant claims that the Church of Rome was the Mystery Babylon mentioned in chapter 17 and that the pope was the false prophet mentioned in chapter 13, chapter 16, and chapter 19. There is also the preterist view that everything happened in the first century, starting with Nero. They taught that the fulfillments were spiritual and that the 1,000 year reign of Christ took place in the Roman Church. Again, this was to defend the reputation of the Western Church organization and its praised bishop.
Then there is the historicist view (which I hold to) that shows that the prophecies described in Revelation reached their fulfillment and continue to reach their fulfillment throughout history, starting from Christ's first advent.

I interpret only what needs to be interpreted. Much of the bible simply means what it says and needs no interpretation.
Revelation has alot of symbolic language that can be interpreted from what is said in the the book of Daniel and other places in the bible.
I understand revelation based on what I heard from the King James bible being read on tape many times by Alexander Scourby. And I would ask God to give me the proper understanding of the bible many times before I started to listen.
I reject preterism as false. Revelation is also about things that were shortly done to the 7 churches in asia, a long time ago.
The author of Revelaton is John the apostle. He is the only one in the bible that calls Jesus the Word of God. He does this in Revelation and in the first Chapter of the gospel of John. That aspect alone proves the author to be John the apostle.

I don't disagree that John wrote down the words, but the words are not all his. The messages to the seven Churches are Christ's words. That means, these seven Churches mean something very important. Take this into consideration, if they were just seven Churches in Asia Minor being addressed, then why did Jesus make it a mystery and have to explain it? And why is He standing in the midst of only seven?
Seven represents completion, like the week or a jubilee. Seven Lamp stands represent Seven Churches that shine the truth of Jesus Christ to the world. If they fail, Christ admonishes them. These seven Churches stand for the complete history of the Church until Christ returns; each sharing the same issues through every generation, but having its own issue on the hot line of Church interests. The seven stars are the seven messengers sent to these Churches, which carry the complete message of Christ's. These should not only be viewed as seven separate messages, but one message with seven view points that complete it.
Thus is the mystery of the Seven Golden Lamp stands.

Ephesus- The First Century Church, when Christians stopped showing love and started getting serious about doctrine. They were encouraged to love each other like they used to.

Smyrna- The Second to Fourth Century Church, when Christians became persecuted for their faith. They were revealed ten more days [years] of persecution which took place in A.D. 303-313 at the hands of the Romans by the decree of Diocletian.

Pergamos- The Fourth-Fifth Century Church where Christianity was legalized and accepted. However, many doctrines were compromised for organization and conversion sake. The truth became scarce as bread, but the Eucharist and baptism was not hindered.

Thyatira- The Ninth-Fourteenth Century Church where Christians took good deeds seriously. However, they tolerated that prophetess Jezebel called the Papacy, who taught the Christians idolatry. This Organization was to be thrown onto a bed and those kingdoms that loved her were to be put through tribulation. This happened when the Papacy was moved from Rome to Avignon, France, starting the 'Babylonian Captivity of the Church.' Then, the Western Empire was struck with the Great Famine of 1315, the Great Mortality (Bubonic Plague) of the 1340's, and the constant warring against the Turks and Mongols.

Sardis- The Fifteenth to Seventeenth Century Church where Christianity was practically a dead faith due to indulgences. God then called men to speak out against these practices and doctrines. Though they paid with their lives, they brought fire back to the lamp stand that caused it to shine the truth of God brightly.

Philadelphia- The Eighteenth Century Church where Christians sought good will to each other and practiced good intentions for the practice of their faith. Notice that America was liberated in this century and the Papacy was captured and deprived of its authority.

Laodicea- The Nineteenth Century until Present Day Church where Christians started judging for themselves what was good and started splitting into many different factions and cults. The truth was dispersed, confused within the mass of religions. Then it got to the point where mega-Churches gained so much money that they began to get comfortable. They said to themselves, I am rich and need nothing. But in truth, they are miserable, naked, and blind. And because of this, Christ councils us to buy gold refined in fire, which means that He wants us to give up all our riches for that which is provided for us in Heaven [the gold refined in fire; the treasure of salvation for which the blood of Christ and the blood of martyrs was shed.]


This should shed some light on why the other chapters are even included, because they deal greatly with the history of the Christian Church.

Well it's all moot and useless because there never has been enough evidence to support the claims of the bible.
I feel the scientific community is disproving many claims the bible makes at a head- spinning pace.
Jehovah is still childish and very hard to respect. God was made in man's image, this is extremely obvious. John was probably suffering from post traumatic stress syndrome-like some vietnam vet.

John the "supposed" author of Revelation was a dude isolated in a cave-on the Island of Patmos-stressed out to the max because of the Romans. He was writing about the "current events" around him people-nothing else !
Religious skeptics have typically been highly critical of Revelation, often considering it the work of a mentally ill author. Typical in this vein is nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll, who famously branded Revelation "the insanest of all books"

The delusional follow the delusioned. Look at history.

If this is your approach, then it is still quite obvious that you don't understand anything in the Bible. The heart believes what it chooses to believe. Thats the logical truth.

The scientific community is not disproving God more and more, but showing that God knows more than we could have ever imagined. The scientific community also demonstrates one attitude that you are not showing right now, inquiry. When you stop asking questions and start assuming you know the answer already, you make it apparent that you don't care in the first place.

I feel as though you are relying on everyone else to tell you what to believe and that is why you can't believe. You keep treating God like He is so frail. You act as if God should be totally devoid of emotions, or He wouldn't be fit to run the universe in you opinion. Keep in mind that that is your mortal understanding of an immortal and almighty being that shows obvious lack of inquiry in the subject. It seems as if at this point you don't want to know if God exists. That sounds like a heart thing to me. Having faith and caring always comes from the heart.

I can testify to this: Revelation is the most important book for our generation and those after us. It contains the direct message of Jesus Christ and was written by the second party [John.] It wasn't written in a format where men were gathered and had to recollect to a third party [writers] what the first party [Jesus] said. The prophecies given have come true. But they will never make sense to you because you do not have faith. And so, if you look toward others who do have faith to explain it to you, it won't ever make sense. Please think about that for a second.