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user posted image rThe universe has a huge hole in it that dwarfs anything else of its kind. The discovery caught astronomers by surprise.The hole is nearly a billion light-years across. It is not a black hole, which is a small sphere of densely packed matter. Rather, this one is mostly devoid of stars, gas and other normal matter, and it's also strangely empty of the mysterious "dark matter" that permeates the cosmos. Other space voids have been found before, but nothing on this scale.Astronomers don't know why the hole is there."Not only has no one ever found a void this big, but we never even expected to find one this size," said researcher Lawrence Rudnick of the University of Minnesota.Rudnick's colleague Liliya R. Williams also had not anticipated this finding. "What we've found is not normal, based on either observational studies or on computer simulations of the large-scale evolution of the universe," said Williams, also of the University of Minnesota.The finding will be detailed in the Astrophysical Journal.The universe is populated with visible stars, gas and dust, but most of the matter in the universe is invisible. Scientists know something is there, because they can measure the gravitational effects of the so-called dark matter.

Voids exist, but they are typically relatively small.The gargantuan hole was found by examining observations made using the Very Large Array (VLA) radio telescope, funded by the National Science Foundation. There is a "remarkable drop in the number of galaxies" in a region of sky in the constellation Eridanus, Rudnick said.The region had been previously been dubbed the "WMAP Cold Spot," because it stood out in a map of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) radiation made by NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotopy Probe (WMAP) satellite. The CMB is an imprint of radiation left from the Big Bang, the theoretical beginning of the universe. "Although our surprising results need independent confirmation, the slightly colder temperature of the CMB in this region appears to be caused by a huge hole devoid of nearly all matter roughly 6 to 10 billion light-years from Earth," Rudnick said.

linked-image View: Full Article | Source: Space.com
Primeval
The giant black monolith.
Ghost Ship
Spooky.
Krayt12
...whoa... blink.gif
Scott_C
Yeah wow really interesting, thanks for posting.
Cdt_Lovekamp_US_ARMY_ROTC
Sounds Big
ShaunZero
Like I've always said, scientists assume too much about the universe WAY too soon. We barely understand the universe.
Unlimited
QUOTE(Zero of Deism @ Aug 25 2007, 11:30 AM) *
Like I've always said, scientists assume too much about the universe WAY too soon. We barely understand the universe.


agreed...how can a planet without space travel know so much?..it amazes...
III
QUOTE(Zero of Deism @ Aug 25 2007, 11:30 AM) *
Like I've always said, scientists assume too much about the universe WAY too soon. We barely understand the universe.


This was also how i felt after reading this article.... "scientists know something is there because they can measure bla bla"...

Nice find though.
louie
ok lets use some logic here. in all fairness we know nothing about the universe. even stars we know, we give them names, they are only our idea of something that not only exists outside our mindscape, it existed before our timeline.
basically we know nothing.
Torchwood
Religion/astrology and other random belief systems have been around thousands of years.

True science (as opposed to alchemy and people trying to do magic and finding things out by accident), has been around for a couple of hundred years.

Q:
How fast has has our civilization progressed in the past couple of centuries compared to the last couple of thousand years?
And which one found a massive hole (only the area was a new discovery, the phenomona was already basically known) and will now study it.

I hate it when people say "huh! shows scientists dont know everything after all!" as though scientists are supposed to be born with all the knowledge of the universe gushing forth from their mouths. Of course they dont know it all.

The word scientist does not mean "one who knows all".
It means "one who against all the odds is trying to find out!". At least he is trying!

Cool find tho, wonder how they occur? Suggestions?
Benjo Koolzooie
Yeah, I dislike how scientists assume too much about the universe. For example, when they state a planet is too cold/hot for anything to live on. There is a reason a lot of those planets and potential life forms in space are called "alien". They assume too much.

As for the actual article, very interestng. Wonder if there will be any sort of follow up story.
Torchwood
Assume? They dont just "assume" things randomly!

They use what evidence theyve got and try and work out an answer. Sometimes they get more information and go back and do the working out all over again to see if they got it wrong, and if they did they change it!

Well thats the idea anyway, nobodys perfect!:D
Chokmah
QUOTE(Benjo Koolzooie @ Aug 25 2007, 02:35 PM) *
Yeah, I dislike how scientists assume too much about the universe. For example, when they state a planet is too cold/hot for anything to live on. There is a reason a lot of those planets and potential life forms in space are called "alien". They assume too much.

As for the actual article, very interestng. Wonder if there will be any sort of follow up story.


They don't just assume, planets too high in acidity or alkaline or basically far to hot, cannot support the building blocks of life. They'd just be eaten / destroyed by the conditions. However, from our own planet we have discovered how resiliant life is - from the boiling waters in yellow stone park and the frozon poles of the North, to the deep water pockets deep in the Earths crust.

From this - as well as experiments down on Earth, that resemble the findings of the planet-in-questions makeup, the scientist can conclude whether or not life can be present. Carbon is the most reliable atom for forming bonds, the next in line is silicon however it is not as successful as carbon. Silicon is still able to form bonds with other molecules, don't get me wrong. So we're looking for planets that have a higher percentage of life, that will have conditions suitable for carbon-based--life. Based on 100% fact that carbon life is abundant on Earth and that it's got over 100 million years of carbon-based-life, gives us the conclusion that carbon-based-life is more resiliant and resourceful. Seeing as it's all we know and that it is truth.
1213141516
I don't know why it caught them by surprise, it's space, and I doubt we have found all there is to find, if anything I would expect them to find it intriguing or interesting, not shocking.
1213141516
QUOTE(Zero of Deism @ Aug 25 2007, 07:30 AM) *
Like I've always said, scientists assume too much about the universe WAY too soon. We barely understand the universe.


We barely understand it, but to start we must assume, or will go nowhere at all.
AncientLight
& it's headed this way .... tongue.gif
SafeNet_0432
QUOTE(Zero of Deism @ Aug 25 2007, 11:30 AM) *
Like I've always said, scientists assume too much about the universe WAY too soon. We barely understand the universe.
And what does that have to do with a void in space being found? It doesn't change anything.
QUOTE(Robinette @ Aug 25 2007, 02:38 PM) *
I don't know why it caught them by surprise, it's space, and I doubt we have found all there is to find, if anything I would expect them to find it intriguing or interesting, not shocking.
Perhaps you are a little too close-minded to appreciate their findings? I don't know about you, but to me a void in space almost a billion light years across is very interesting and shocking to me.
TeraLink
Hmm... Go right into it!

TeraLink Was Here!
Ancient World Wonders
"Holy nothing, Batman!"
"That's right, Robin, nothingness!"
"But how do you see something that isn't there?"
"Good question."
Tsume
It'd be quite interesting to find out what is/how it occured when they research more on it.
IronicHorse


Very interesting I wonder what would happen if you wne t inside
Alex01
Scientist don't assume, they do NOT do such thing. Scientist follow the scientific method then come up with a conclusion, but they do no such thing as 'assume'.

QUOTE
Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena and acquiring new knowledge, as well as for correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning,[1] the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these hypotheses for accuracy. These steps must be repeatable in order to predict dependably any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many hypotheses together in a coherent structure. This in turn may assist in the formation of new hypotheses, as well as in placing groups of hypotheses into a broader context of understanding.

There is a popular misconception, sometimes even taught in science classes, that a scientific idea progresses from being a hypothesis, to being a theory, to being a law, based on how much evidence has been established. This is not the case. Although scientists in different fields may use the three terms somewhat differently (especially the term "hypothesis"), the terms represent different types of scientific understanding which are not subject to the alleged progression.

Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process must be objective to reduce a biased interpretation of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so it is available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called "full disclosure", also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.



QUOTE
[edit] Elements of scientific method
There are multiple ways of outlining the basic method shared by all of the fields of scientific inquiry. The following examples are typical classifications of the most important components of the method on which there is very wide agreement in the scientific community and among philosophers of science, each of which are subject only to marginal disagreements about a few very specific aspects.

The accepted definition of the scientific method involves most of the following basic facets:

Observation. A constant feature of scientific inquiry, observation includes both unconditioned observations (prior to any theory) as well as the observation of the experiment and its results.
Description. Information derived from experiments must be reliable, i.e., replicable (repeatable), as well as valid (relevant to the inquiry).
Prediction. Information must be valid for observations past, present, and future of given phenomena, i.e., purported "one shot" phenomena do not give rise to the capability to predict, nor to the ability to repeat an experiment.
Control. Actively and fairly sampling the range of possible occurrences, whenever possible and proper, as opposed to the passive acceptance of opportunistic data, is the best way to control or counterbalance the risk of empirical bias.
Identification of causes. Identification of the causes of a particular phenomenon to the best achievable extent. For cause-and-effect relationship to be established, the following must be established:
Time-order relationship. The hypothesized causes must precede the observed effects in time.
Covariation of events. The hypothesized causes must correlate with observed effects. However, correlations between events or variables are not necessarily indicative of causation.
Elimination of plausible alternatives. This is a gradual process that requires repeated experiments by multiple researchers who must be able to replicate results in order to corroborate them.: All hypotheses and theories are in principle subject to disproof. Thus, there is a point at which there might be a consensus about a particular hypothesis or theory, yet it must in principle remain tentative. As a body of knowledge grows and a particular hypothesis or theory repeatedly brings predictable results, confidence in the hypothesis or theory increases.
Another simplified model sometimes utilized to summarize scientific method is the "operational":

The essential elements of a scientific method are operations, observations, models, and a utility function for evaluating models.[citation needed]

operation - Some action done to the system being investigated
Observation - What happens when the operation is done to the system
Model - A fact, hypothesis, theory, or the phenomenon itself at a certain moment
Utility Function - A measure of the usefulness of the model to explain, predict, and control, and of the cost of use of it
One of the elements of any scientific utility function is the refutability of the model. Another is its simplicity, on the Principle of Parsimony also known as Occam's Razor.
The following is a more thorough description of the method. This set of methodological elements and organization of procedures will in general tend to be more characteristic of natural sciences and experimental psychology than of disciplines commonly categorized as social sciences. Among the latter, methods of verification and testing of hypotheses may involve less stringent mathematical and statistical interpretations of these elements within the respective disciplines. Nonetheless the cycle of hypothesis, verification and formulation of new hypotheses will tend to resemble the basic cycle described below.

The essential elements[3], [4], [5] of a scientific method[6] are iterations [7], recursions[8], interleavings, and orderings of the following:

Characterizations (Quantifications, observations[9] , and measurements)
Hypotheses[10] (theoretical, hypothetical explanations of observations and measurements)[11]
Predictions (reasoning including logical deduction[12] from hypothesis and theory)
Experiments[13] (tests of all of the above)


Source and more info on the scientific method Click.


The link has even more info on the scientific method, people, please do not comment without knowing thank you. And to the one word posters. Example:

QUOTE(Blue_Sphere @ Aug 25 2007, 11:48 AM) *
Spooky.


QUOTE(Krayt12 @ Aug 25 2007, 12:07 PM) *
...whoa... blink.gif



QUOTE
Sounds Big



You all agreed with the rules when you became a member:

QUOTE
2e. Garbage posting: Do not deliberately make posts of little worth or that contain nonsense. This is usually done either for the purpose of increasing post count or to disrupt the forum by doing so in an attempt to bait others in to responding.


QUOTE
4b. One-word comments: Do not respond to threads or gallery pictures with derogatory one word responses such as "Fake!" or "Photoshop!". If you think something is fake then say why you think that, elaborate on your response.
ba-ra-gentledragon
THE INFINITE POWER THAT CREATED THIS ENTIRE EVERYTHING IS, ACCESSABLE FROM WITHIN EVERY HUMAN BEING,BUT SOMEONE OR SOME THING/S DOES NOT WANT US TO KNOW!AND THATS WHY WERE ALL MAD,THEYVE ALWAYS MADE SURE WE DONT LOOK INSIDE OF OURSELVES FOR THE ANSWERS.
Primeval
QUOTE(Ancient World Wonders @ Aug 25 2007, 11:50 AM) *
"Holy nothing, Batman!"
"That's right, Robin, nothingness!"
"But how do you see something that isn't there?"
"Good question."



Your looking at the absence of something.
Luvkittys7
This is a very interesting find. I'm waiting for the Christians to say that this may be where God lives, or where Heaven is. I'm somewhat agnostic, tending a bit more towards believing in God, so this theory was the first that popped into my head.

As for the scientists: They know SOME things. The things they presume to know will continually change as new discoveries are made. This leads one to wonder if the scientists really know so much, after all.
Alex01
QUOTE
THE INFINITE POWER THAT CREATED THIS ENTIRE EVERYTHING IS, ACCESSABLE FROM WITHIN EVERY HUMAN BEING,BUT SOMEONE OR SOME THING/S DOES NOT WANT US TO KNOW!AND THATS WHY WERE ALL MAD,THEYVE ALWAYS MADE SURE WE DONT LOOK INSIDE OF OURSELVES FOR THE ANSWERS


That doesn0t make any sense to me really. Btw..... read the rules please:

QUOTE
4a. Shouting: Do not write in all uppercase letters, writing in this manner is considered "shouting" and makes posts difficult to read as well as looking unsightly and being annoying to other visitors
ships-cat
I'm probaby being simplistic here... but... what the heck.

If the universe was created in a 'big bang', expanding from a singularity in a (metaphorical) explosion of energy and matter, then this would surely suggest that all matter (and energy) in the universe is moving radialy outwards from the 'central point'.

Hence, presumably, there would be an (increasing) zone of "emptyness" around that 'central point', 'cos all the energy and matter has moved away ?

Could this "creation zone" be what the scientists are seeing ?

Meow Purr.
Ghost Ship
An interesting thought^. If that is the case then the center of the universe has been found. How might scientists prove that this might be the case though?
Startraveler
QUOTE
If the universe was created in a 'big bang', expanding from a singularity in a (metaphorical) explosion of energy and matter, then this would surely suggest that all matter (and energy) in the universe is moving radialy outwards from the 'central point'.

Hence, presumably, there would be an (increasing) zone of "emptyness" around that 'central point', 'cos all the energy and matter has moved away ?

Could this "creation zone" be what the scientists are seeing ?


Probably the best analogy anyone's come up for regarding the expansion of the universe is the expansion of the surface of a balloon. The flaw in the analogy is the fact that a balloon has an interior that does indeed have a sort of center, so you have to disregard that part of the balloon. But picture a balloon starting off from almost a point then expanding outward. Every point on the surface of the balloon started at that original point; similarly, the big bang, in a sense, occurred everywhere. If the surface of a balloon is all there is (i.e. no "inside") then it doesn't make sense to say the surface of the balloon is expanding away from any particular central point. Instead, every point is expanding away from every other point, though each point was once at the original singularity point. That is to say, there is no gap between here and the big bang and there is no central point away from which everything expands.
Chokmah
QUOTE(Alex01 @ Aug 25 2007, 09:01 PM) *
Scientist don't assume, they do NOT do such thing. Scientist follow the scientific method then come up with a conclusion, but they do no such thing as 'assume'.
Source and more info on the scientific method Click.
The link has even more info on the scientific method, people, please do not comment without knowing thank you. And to the one


Hmm... PHOTOSHOP!
ShaunZero
QUOTE
I hate it when people say "huh! shows scientists dont know everything after all!" as though scientists are supposed to be born with all the knowledge of the universe gushing forth from their mouths. Of course they dont know it all.


Scientists nor science are perfect, they can and DO do some things wrong. And all I was saying is that we need to stop assuming so much about the universe. We know barely anything about it. Hell, I don't even like when scientists try to claim the age of the universe, because odds are(Using science =O) it's more likely that we'll have to revise the age and/or origin as we explore the universe.


QUOTE
They don't just assume, planets too high in acidity or alkaline or basically far to hot, cannot support the building blocks of life.


Who's to say there isn't some weird form of life that CAN live in those conditions?
Chokmah
QUOTE(Zero of Deism @ Aug 25 2007, 11:34 PM) *
Who's to say there isn't some weird form of life that CAN live in those conditions?


Carbon based life forms say so laugh.gif
ships-cat
QUOTE(Startraveler @ Aug 25 2007, 11:09 PM) *
Probably the best analogy anyone's come up for regarding the expansion of the universe is the expansion of the surface of a balloon. The flaw in the analogy is the fact that a balloon has an interior that does indeed have a sort of center, so you have to disregard that part of the balloon. But picture a balloon starting off from almost a point then expanding outward. Every point on the surface of the balloon started at that original point; similarly, the big bang, in a sense, occurred everywhere. If the surface of a balloon is all there is (i.e. no "inside") then it doesn't make sense to say the surface of the balloon is expanding away from any particular central point. Instead, every point is expanding away from every other point, though each point was once at the original singularity point. That is to say, there is no gap between here and the big bang and there is no central point away from which everything expands.


Yup - I was pretty sure my reasoning was shaky when I posted, and that it had to do with trying to model the big bang in the traditional 3 dimensions. Thanks for the explanation Startraveler.

And lets hope nobody pops the balloon tongue.gif

Meow Purr.
ShaunZero
QUOTE(Chokmah @ Aug 25 2007, 06:42 PM) *
Carbon based life forms say so laugh.gif


We don't know enough about life to be the dictators on what can and can't happen. We know that life as we currently know it can't live in those conditions, but that's only speaking for... life as we know it. And we don't know a whole lot.
positron
QUOTE(Zero of Deism @ Aug 25 2007, 08:41 PM) *
We don't know enough about life to be the dictators on what can and can't happen. We know that life as we currently know it can't live in those conditions, but that's only speaking for... life as we know it. And we don't know a whole lot.



I tend to agree. We really know nothing about what is out there. I believe there is a lot we have yet to learn,if we are allowed to !
mouse888
whats get me is how do they know its a billion years across
ShaunZero
QUOTE
Scientist don't assume, they do NOT do such thing. Scientist follow the scientific method then come up with a conclusion, but they do no such thing as 'assume'.


Science can't assume, scientists can and do.
AdorablyDead
I don't get it, it's not a black hole so what does it do? Does it just exist?
Space Walker
It will be interesting to see what else they find out there, when the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) which supposed to be is 10 time more powerful than the Hubble space telescope, is lunched in 2011.
Space Walker
QUOTE(AdorablyDead @ Aug 25 2007, 11:07 PM) *
I don't get it, it's not a black hole so what does it do? Does it just exist?




It seems what they are saying is that, it is like an "empty room" they can't "see/detect" anything in that area.
Cebrakon
QUOTE(Primeval @ Aug 25 2007, 03:53 AM) *
The giant black monolith.


It could be filled with cold neutral anti-hydrogen. Anti-matter has anti-gravity, you know. This is my big discovery. But I haven't gotten any notice. However, if anti-matter has anti-gravity, that would explain the fountain of positrons in the center of the Milky Way, as well as the jets from quasars and active galaxies and some other situations. And it would explain the voids in our soap bubble universe. Anti-matter would try to stay as far away from other matter or anti-matter as it could. So it would push the normal and dark matter out to the edges of the bubbles where they form the super-clusters and great walls of galaxies.

Send any Nobel Prizes to my email address.. (heh heh).

BTW, it would be cold because neutral hydrogen is transparent, and causes cosmic rays (fast nuclei) to divert away.

~~~Cebrakon, the well-known genius
Luvkittys7
QUOTE(Startraveler @ Aug 25 2007, 05:09 PM) *
Probably the best analogy anyone's come up for regarding the expansion of the universe is the expansion of the surface of a balloon. The flaw in the analogy is the fact that a balloon has an interior that does indeed have a sort of center, so you have to disregard that part of the balloon. But picture a balloon starting off from almost a point then expanding outward. Every point on the surface of the balloon started at that original point; similarly, the big bang, in a sense, occurred everywhere. If the surface of a balloon is all there is (i.e. no "inside") then it doesn't make sense to say the surface of the balloon is expanding away from any particular central point. Instead, every point is expanding away from every other point, though each point was once at the original singularity point. That is to say, there is no gap between here and the big bang and there is no central point away from which everything expands.
I may seem a bit ignorant, here, but I don't really understand your post. Can you please try to explain again, how it compares to the balloon? I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around exactly what you are trying to say. (Might be the sleep med kicking in..Lol.)

Edit: Okay, upon rereading (and few sharp shakes of my head) I think I'm starting to get what you are saying. Sorry for my thickness. blush.gif
Startraveler
QUOTE
Edit: Okay, upon rereading (and few sharp shakes of my head) I think I'm starting to get what you are saying. Sorry for my thickness.


No problem. If you're still looking for elaboration/clarification don't hesitate to ask.

ShaunZero
QUOTE
From this - as well as experiments down on Earth, that resemble the findings of the planet-in-questions makeup, the scientist can conclude whether or not life can be present.


Change the bold to "whether or not life as we know it now can be present", and you'll be more correct. Maybe there is some bizarre life elsewhere in the universe that can live in conditions we'd never think it could possibly live in. Quit taking it further than it should be taken. Sure, we know life that we know of already wouldn't survive in those conditions, but that's just it... life as we know it.
Cebrakon
QUOTE(Torchwood @ Aug 25 2007, 08:33 AM) *
Religion/astrology and other random belief systems have been around thousands of years.

True science (as opposed to alchemy and people trying to do magic and finding things out by accident), has been around for a couple of hundred years.

Q:
How fast has has our civilization progressed in the past couple of centuries compared to the last couple of thousand years?
And which one found a massive hole (only the area was a new discovery, the phenomona was already basically known) and will now study it.

I hate it when people say "huh! shows scientists dont know everything after all!" as though scientists are supposed to be born with all the knowledge of the universe gushing forth from their mouths. Of course they dont know it all.

The word scientist does not mean "one who knows all".
It means "one who against all the odds is trying to find out!". At least he is trying!

Cool find tho, wonder how they occur? Suggestions?


rolleyes.gif Good statement, Torchwood. I do have a suggestion. This, and other voids are filled with neutral anti-hydrogen. That is hydrogen made from an anti-electron (positron) and an anti-proton. Anti-matter has anti-gravity, you know. Oh yes. Well known in my family of 1. Explains lots of things, including the soap-bubble medium scale organization of the universe. Anti-hydrogen would be neutral, and thus invisible. Since anti-gravity objects try to stay as far away from any other particles as they can, these bubbles produce an outward pressure on the matter around them, both dark and light. Where the bubbles collide there are strings of clusters of galaxies. Neutral anti-hydrogen atoms are light, and they push away from passing cosmic rays, which keeps them neutral, cool, and invisible. Since they are evenly distributed throughout the bubble, there would be no lensing effect. So they stay hidden.

~~Cebrakon the philosopher, creator of the forbidden sciences

Startraveler
QUOTE
Anti-matter has anti-gravity, you know.


I don't think that's the case. . .
Alex01
Why are some of you guys bringing the 'life on other planets' topic on another topic ( this thread) again, it is totally offtopic, there are great discussion about that in the UFO section....

And I repeat, scientist do not assume such thing, they use the scientific method...... but they don't guess.. read my previous post for those who don't have a clue of what I am talking about...
Cebrakon
QUOTE(Startraveler @ Aug 26 2007, 02:00 AM) *
I don't think that's the case. . .


The astronomical data suggests it is. For instance, it would explain the mysterious fountain of positrons from the center of the Milky Way. It is impossible to do a lab test on the hypothesis because (1) it is impossible to control a bottle of anti-hydrogen. (2) One can create a small number of positrons held in place by electro-magnetic forces. However, one would have to null out the EM forces to about 40 decimal places (I don't remember the exact number) before you could tell how the positrons are reacting to gravity. It can't be done, especially if you weren't looking for it.

~~Cebrakon
Alex01
linked-image


Illustration of the effect of matter on the cosmic microwave background (CMB). On the right, the CMB is released shortly after the Big Bang, with tiny ripples in temperature due to fluctuations in the early universe. As the radiation traverses the universe, it experiences slight perturbations. In the direction of the giant newly-discovered void, the WMAP satellite (top left) sees a cold spot, while the VLA (bottom left) sees fewer radio-emitting galaxies. CREDIT: Bill Saxton, NRAO/AUI/NSF, NASA


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