It is said that whoever holds the Spear of Destiny holds the destiny of the world in his hands.

On the day Christ was crucified (a Friday) the Bible tells us that the Jews asked the Roman Governor, Pilate, to remove his body, along with the thieves crucified with him, so that they would not remain on the crosses during the sabbath (Saturday).

It could take several days for a man to die from the cruel execution of crucifixion, but the process could be shortened by breaking the victim's legs. The thieves were killed this way, but when the Roman soldiers reached Jesus, one of them, reportedly a centurion named Longinus, saw he was already dead and proved it to his fellows by using his spear to pierce the Christ's side. Blood and water poured out. There was no need to break his bones.

This act has been seen by Christians as fulfillment of prophecy spoken earlier in the Bible: The Messiah shall be pierced and his bones shall not be broken. The spear itself became a religious relic. The piercing was seen as proof of his death and his subsequent resurrection.


Spear of Destiny

I did read a book on this subject a long while ago, it fascinated me then and it intrigues me now. It is strange how certain nations have had this Spear in their possession and appeared to have had immense power in the world.

What does everyone else think? Do you think that the prophesy regarding this Spear carries any weight?

Just the fact that it is a prophesy makes it worthy of weight, but really it should be a most interesting item to posses as that so many believe it to hold such a force and power. oh and i do believe it has special powers

Interesting to say the least

Hitler supposedly had it during WWII as did the US when the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.

It would be very interesting to know which other countries have held it in their time and what their world influence was at that moment.

Wow! I've heard bits and pieces about this sword but that was really cool. Nice thread Thanks, Jody

The "spear of destiny" is another human created foible (there's a pun attached). It couldn't be a true, as defined, object because there is no historical evidence to support not only Jesus but everything and everyone associated with him. Therefore, there was no "spear of destiny." You might want to look for a documentary that is regularly shown on TV dealing with this "relic" (check your library) and how it was debunked. It was taken apart and each piece put through laboratory tests which resulted in it being a modern creation. Don't accept what I say, see for yourself and come to your conclusions.

What library, is this documentary shown in the UK?

QUOTE(SkepticalEd @ Aug 30 2007, 01:35 AM)
The "spear of destiny" is another human created foible (there's a pun attached). It couldn't be a true, as defined, object because there is no historical evidence to support not only Jesus but everything and everyone associated with him. Therefore, there was no "spear of destiny." You might want to look for a documentary that is regularly shown on TV dealing with this "relic" (check your library) and how it was debunked. It was taken apart and each piece put through laboratory tests which resulted in it being a modern creation. Don't accept what I say, see for yourself and come to your conclusions.



Your questions reminded me that this could be an international website so I'll elucidate you as to my reply, above. In the U.S. we have a public library system and there's usually a library in every city and possibly close to U.S. residents. In New York City, we can even look up titles, etc., and reserve books through the Internet and when the book arrives at the closest branch to me, just a couple of blocks away, I receive an email notification. Then I go to the branch and pickup the book, video, DVD, whatever.

As to the documentary itself, I'm sure that you get to see a lot of what we see here in the U.S. through what is called transmission TV or over the air. However, it's nearly impossible to receive a decent, clear signal in New York City so we have cable (and a decoding cable box or set-top box) that allows us to receive hundreds of channels in the highest quality and that is about as good as TV gets. I don't know if the documentary concentrates on only the spear of destiny or it is one segment of many. Since they devote quite a bit of time to it, it might be the only subject of the documentary. I read the book by Trevor Ravenscroft when it was published in 1982 and being an educated atheist I knew that in the future it would proven to be not what it was claimed to be. I was very happy and felt a sigh of relief when in the documentary the conclusion was announced. Phew!

And this documentary is called WHAT??????????

isn't it ironic that atheist no more about relgion than religious people do. for people who don't believe in that stuff they sure do spend their one life and nothing after it studying it.

I've seen that documentary several times (they like to run it on Discovery Times on Sunday mornings every few months). Yes, they took A spear apart, known as the Hofburg spear today, it's believed this is the one Hitler had in his possession. It was tested in 2003 and parts of the tests were inconclusive, however the man who examined it dated it to about the 7th century AD.

There are other "spears" out there that are reported to be "the" spear as well which have not undergone testing at all. One of the candidates is in the hands of the Vatican, and like every other Holy relic in their hands, they make no claims of authenticity.

Hitler mustered the treasures of the Apsburgs (I don't know if this is the right name in English though) as soon as he invaded Hungary (IIRC). Along with these treasures, gold and silver and paintings, was a rusty old blade tied in the center of it's body with a gold narthecium and silver strings. It was the Spear Of Longinus.

Another rumor says that Charlsmagne also had this spear, and he lost his wars when somehow, the spear, "left" it's possession. I have a book with a some articles on the history of the Spear Of Destiny. I should take a look and check about all the timeline of its possession.

Looks like everybody has a "original" spear if we are to believe everything we read




fuillywired

I don't think so. Perhaps the fact that the spear changed a lot of owners, gives away this impression.

years ago, i read a really good book about the spear by james herbert. it was called 'the spear' if i remember rightly.

i've got the one and only true spear !! got of fleE-bay for a low bid of $29.99 + S&H . it even comes with a certificate of authentecity and everything ! the only problem is the made in china sticker on it--lol

Watch the movie "Constantine" with Keanu Reeves. The subject of the movie is about the spear of destiny.

Many atheists come from a religious background - which is why we don't believe, yet still know about the bible and the characters therein.

Lol! Geez - some posts should come with warnings. I almost snorted my juice.

I would think to a christian it would be witchcraft to put any power into it other than it is just a spear. If there is any truth story of Jesus I am sure the spear ended broken and in the trash heap destiny like most of the objects of history.

That would be interesting! If you do check, can you post back here, I am interested too




I, too, read a book regarding this Spear, I have been trying to think what it was called for ages, I can't even remember the name of the Author, it is frustrating lol. I got it out of the Library years ago, that's what first got me interested in it.

The spear really is a mythical thing. Heck, there was even a Superman comic that referred to it. Cool concept over-all, but likely myth. Unfortunately the same can be said for many relics from this time period. There is a huge market for fake relics out there, Israel being a central clearing-house for many fakes. On the other hand, when there is an interesting find of some sort, politics usually kicks in and are often stashed away or even destroyed! That's a real shame, but one that many political groups are willing to do to promote the their agenda, and in order not to lend credence to another groups agenda.

Imagine if the tomb of Jesus or the cross were found, indisputably so, and it was found in Egypt or Saudi Arabia...do you think anyone would call in the "Christians" so their faith could be confirmed? No way.

That's a good point! There are so many unscrupulous people out there, they would go to the ends of the Earth to try and hide any evidence, lest it made them look less than they have been saying.

I do believe there is a place for all religions in this world, it is just a shame that they can't all get along.

Personally, I am just glad I don't belong to any.

Ha! Clever little devil.
It is a shame, I agree.
I was thinking, if a Christian theocracy found evidence that Islam was "the way", do you think they would acknowledge it, or hide it!? Open question for everyone!

It is a sad fact that some people will watch this film and firmly believe it is true history



fullywired

I had heard a long time ago ( and can't remember where ) that if in fact Jesus existed and if he were crucified as descripted that being pierced may actually have saved his life .

Most death by crucification was said to be because of asphyxiation . but many pass out before actually dying. If Jesus had passed out a pierce to a fluid filled lung from torture would have been a bloody water ( and quite a bit of it ) giving him the chance to survive. and yes there are according to historians people who did survive and were given reprieves.

Who knows . that soldier may have been in on a way to save him because breaking the legs really would have killed him for sure . Give 3 days to somewhat recoup ( he would have looked like death warmed over )

Jesus very well could have survived. if the story is real.

good movie if only for Tilda Swinton as Gabrielle.

I have no problem at all with an historical and biblical jesus, but several things have always seemed wrong in any version of this story I have read. First, a roman legionnaire "losing" his pilum or even less likely his gladius/ short sword? Secondly, he would have been dead, his sword lost or returned to the armoury, and used by many others, before its significance filtered out into the roman community. Third, given the many thousands of absolutely identical swords in circulation, how could anyone establish the provenance of an individual sword? This sounds like another relic created by christians a few centuries into christianity.

The spear is just a subplot. The subject is really about outguessing God (as in being presumptuous) and its consequence. Tilda Swinton got in trouble because of arrogance -- how very Catholic this film is.