Okay, here is a question that I have had for a long time, and yet to be given an answer. If someone says that God makes everything, everybody, then he makes Hermaphrodites. (People who have male and female body parts.) If someone can be a Hermaphrodite, then why can't someone be Homosexual? Why is one thing agreed upon in our society to be genetically different, but not the other?

Comments?

And please don't give me the "it's wrong in the bible speech."

I never said, "someone can't be a Homosexual." There are just as many dumb and beetchee gays versus hip gays.

For whatever reason, people are and have always had the chance of being born with birth defects. I think a lot of it is due to pollution, chemicals, medications and such. Animals are also born this way. We live in an imperfect world and things aren't always fair. I cannot speak on homosexuality, and btw, I did not say it was a birth defect, but I think hermaphroditism is.

You can't ask people why God makes Hermaphrodites, then says homosexuality is wrong (as is said in the Bible; you quoted it) and demand people use the Bible for reference. But I will try my best to explain this. How we are physically and mentally only work right when we are spiritually fit. Its not the urges or feelings that make homosexual a sinner, its the acts and lusts. Christ said that if a man lusts after a woman, he has committed adultery against God in his heart. Why would the case be different for homosexuals. Then the last bit goes down to this: God created male and female. He created them to be together and had revealed a little about Himself through their creation. He married them. Why would God do all this if He intended for His children to act contradictory to it. As I said, having homosexual urges is not the sin, its the acts and the lusts. These are no different for a man that lusts after a woman and has premarital for sex. For in God's eyes, both have contradicted the facts of His creation and put His work to shame. As it is said: What the LORD God has made, let no man undo.

I was born a thief. From a very early age, I stole anything that caught my eye. This lasted well into my early teens where I would steal stuff and then sell it in school. Just because I was born with these feelings and urges does not make it right.

Yes, I know, many people will argue that stealing harms someone and homosexuality doesn't, but I disagree. Sexual sin is very hard to identify and argue against because it is the only sin that isn't against others.

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body." - 1 Corinthians 6:18 (NIV)


I'm sure many people will twist my meaning and claim that I am saying 'Gay people are going to Hell', which I am not. I don't judge anyone. However, as a Christian I am called to make judgements concerning actions and the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin just as adultery, stealing, lying, cowardliness, gossiping and so-on.

Edit: Oops, forgot to answer the original question concerning hermaphrodites. That is between them and God. From my understanding, people who are born with this condition do not grow up as both genders and that even if they do retain the 'parts' of each gender, they still lean towards one or the other when it comes to gender identity. Typically hermaphrodites won't fill out a job application and write 'B' for both in the gender box, they will choose to identify themselves one way or another.

Well said Blue!

What a horrible age we live in when a wondrous gift such as hermaphroditism is considered a defect.

For shame.

I'd give anything to have both a hoo-ha and a doo-dad.

I find them really interesting.. I met a hermaphrodite once in person, and he/she was pretty cool. It must be a hard life though.

What does it make you though if you sleep with a hermaphrodite? Does that make you bi, gay, straight or what? lol

So I personally dont think the creator would care because he created everything, even the lust.. And as it was said.. What the LORD God has made, let no man undo. hehe

True hermaphrodites are super super rare, and studies indicate that there were only 10 born between 1991-2001... so basically one a year in the whole world.

I found an extremely technical article, take what you will from it. I have a medical background and I only barely understood it.

http://www.nature.com/modpathol/journal/v1...80645a.html#top

Rumour has it that Jamie Lee Curtis was one at birth...and her parents had her penis surgically removed.

hahahah, my mother's very best friend was Jamie Lee's first mother in law when Jamie was 18 or 19 (yes, she was married for about a year that young). She's female and surgery free. haha.

Your head and heart are in the right place, kapsha, but it is long stretch to make any inference about homosexuality from the existence of hermaphrodites. The suggestion of a connection is much more likely to give offence than to elicit an explanation.

Mad Manfred: what a wondrous post. Yes, in other times, hermaphrodites were sacred, as the very name attests.

MisMelsWell: I am unsure I want to know how the mother-in-law comes to testify about the bride's pudenda .

All: What hermaphrodites are physically, we each are psychologically, or if you prefer, spiritually.

If God did make us, then such is his handiwork.

Amen.

I didn't mean to confuse any one with the remark about the bible speech. I'm not looking for any thing specific quoted in scripture. But I know many people down here in the bible belt who have the view that one is okay, but not the other. They say God created everything, and I do mean everything, but that can't comprehend someone being gay. Why is it okay for their genetics to be different, and not the other because you don't actually "see" a difference?

There are other things that we can't see go on inside the human body, and that is no problem for some people to comprehend (mental illnesses, etc.). And no I don't think people who are gay have a mental illness. My sister-in-law is gay. She was born to very homophobic parents. I've known her most of her life. Even from the time she was a child she acted "different." Her mother put dresses on her, took her to church, you name it. They tried to make her be like every other little girl. It didn't work. It doesn't work. We are who we are.

People tend to hold on to that one piece of scripture about being gay, but yet disregard others, such as people shouldn't divorce, eat certain foods, etc.

<bold> I do believe that is correct. I like keeping it that simple.

I think given all the complex articles I've read (and I'm NO expert) true hermaphodism is either extremely rare, almost non-existent, but some medical professionals don't believe that even then it's really a true "male/female" split.

I've met a number of supposed hermaphrodites... I've spent a lot of time in Thailand where they are famous for their "shemales". Every single one of them were ummm... intrasexual, but their female parts were medically enhanced/encouraged and not natural. Some of the most beautiful women I've ever seen were in Thailand, and growing up, their mothers yelled at them to put the seat down.

There are people who are born with an outward appearance of being both male and female to a certain extent. Basically their parts aren't quite big enough to look completely male, nor small enough to look female. This is a birth defect and this isn't really the same thing as the handful of cases where hermaphodism is suspected. When these folks are tested, their chromosomes more often than not turn out to identify them as female. They are typically reassigned correctly as female.

It seems somewhat debatable whether or not there's any such thing as a true hermaphrodite.

Yes thats true I think. The one I met was English and he told me was a hermaphrodite.. so even if its not quite the right word to use.. its what he called himself.

Well, I don't believe homosexuality is wrong either. I believe that God made some people gay, so wouldn't he still love them after He made them? Just wouldn't make sense otherwise. Therefore, hermaphrodites are loved just as well.

I think religion is hung up on sex. period. God isn't. God loves his little queen bees just as they are ! ( plus the gays that are referred to in the bible are about male prostutues ( and the 'wasting' of the seed of man because back then they thought the sperm were babies lol. and back then population mattered they didn't realise it was the women who held eggs , they just thought she was the repository of those babies ). anything other is christians taking things out of context and not understanding the culture of the time.

In a sense your right i suppose, but I would NOT wish that on anyone, based solely on the social and emotional ramifications.

I feel the same way about homosexuality to a degree. I just don't want any one to go through such trauma and social anxiety.

Hell, I even think that way about folks with any visible "defect". I just feel bad I guess that they need to go through more than Mr. Pretty-boy or Ms. Perfect-boobies on an emotional level based solely on perception.

Does that make sense?

As far as God creating hermaphrodites...or whatever the real question here is. I can't imagine any one being condemned for being born with what amounts to a birth-defect or abnormality, or whatever label you want to slap on the condition.

Thank you EB. The similarity that I was trying to make is that narrow minded people can't see that we are not all made the same. It is not as simple as being male or female. There are a lot of variables that are involved.

I have a co-worker that is "Primitive Baptist" if you will. We have had this discussion many times. I have brought this question up, for an answer of, "Because the bible says so." This same co-worker does not however believe that someone is damned because they are divorced. Nor does he refrain from eating pork.

I think Lt. Ripley hit the nail on the head, most religions are hung up on sex.

All I'm trying to do is plant a seed, a small one, to try to get people to think.

this is an excellent post...you have excellent insight...that is hard to come by these days...

randomhit10

I'm curious as to why you were urged to steal things. Was it because you didn't have the necessities? When you say as a young child I think of a four or five year old.

Hermaphrodites didn't choose to be born that way, just as gays don't choose to be gay. Do animals choose to be gay? Yes there are animals who are gay (my 14-year old informed me of this, he learned it in Ag class at school).

And as far as sin goes, there are many listed in the bible. Do you really think that it is a sin to eat pork, work on Sunday, etc. or do you just pick and choose which ones you think are important enough to be a sin?

Unfortunately there was a time when man was regarded as "better" than a woman. (Yes I know there are still some of them around.) If a man stooped and was on the same level as a woman, they thought that was wrong. Doesn't that sound logical for it to be written as a sin?

Remember man wrote the bible. It didn't fall from the sky.

Since God obviously has a great time with himself making hermaphrodites and gays, then all I can say is good look to God, the hermaphrodites and the gays with everything. I certainly have nothing against them, or God for that matter.

I think it is definitely linked too the chemicals that we eat, the pollution, etc...I would be interested in seeing any ancient text that deals with this issue if there is any.

Well, considering the name hermaphrodite is from Greek mythology, it is in ancient texts. Many Native Americans also believed hermaphrodites were enlightened.

From what Ive read this a physcal dissorder and not genetic, homosexuallity I beleive Is a preferance and a right to the decission.
Which brings me to say ........... how different or the same is it when one is actually born a man or woman and many grow up wanting to be the opposite sex. eg, sex changes. Ive learnt that those trapped in a body that there not comforable with really do struggle menatly and emotionaly with this torment. "Such topics, so many debates. We'll forever wonder."

Cool thread for conversation!

I've thoroughly examined my life and I cannot find a single reason why I would be inclined to steal. I did not grow up poor, I was not ostricized because of my possessions, I was not 'running with' a group of young thieves. Of course I was taught that stealing was wrong, but I was taught that many things were wrong and yet I didn't go against them. Though I did go through my 'rebellious' stage, my thieving tendencies blossomed much much earlier. To me, is was as if I was pre-programmed to steal, as if I was born with sticky fingers.

The Bible is very clear that possessing feelings is not a sin. As a Christian, I am taught that this world has been given over to sin and that to live in this world is to live with the ongoing struggle of temptation. Noone can be faulted for feeling things. However, feeling something and acting on it are two different things. Though I still retain an inner urge to steal, I acknowledge it for what it is and try my best to focus on the cross. Only when I act out with these urges do I cross over the line.

To understand what the Bible says about sin, you need to understand the entire Bible and not just individual verses. Though many refuse to look at the evidence, there is a very big difference between the ways Christians live and the ways the Biblical Hebrews lived. You mention pork and working on Sundays and you are correct that to do either of these things was forbidden in Old Testament times. However, Christians have a new freedom in Jesus that the Old Testament could never give.


Pork
"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" - Romans 14:13-17 (NIV)

Sabbath
"One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, 'Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?' He answered, 'Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.' Then he said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath'" - Mark 2:23-28 (NIV)


There is reason why people who work on the Sabbath and eat pork aren't committing a sin, and it has nothing to do with picking and choosing.

Man did write the Bible, but there is a difference between the writing and the message. You're looking at this post on your computer monitor, does that mean that it originated from your computer? Of course not. Your monitor is displaying a message written by your computer that was transmitted to it from an outside source. Of course I can't scientifically prove that this was how the Bible came about (since science is for natural processes and not supernatural), but the idea isn't alien to us, it happens everyday.

Intresting, the Greek word for actor is hypcocrite.

I understand what you are saying, and yes I have studied the bible. There are many, many laws that are in the OT that seem to be "forgotten." And people love to pick and choose specific ones to abide by, or judge by. This goes for all people, including the ones who don't believe in the NT.

I think as man was writing the bible, he had good intentions. I don't think God told him word for word what to write down. A sexual sin such adultry makes much more sense to me. There are several parties involved and someone gets hurt. As you posted earlier, who gets hurt by being gay? The gay person does. If they decide to be honest about who they are, they are tormented by society. So which is worse? They way they are treated IMO. Jesus told us not to judge, lest not ye be judged.

Why would God create someone who is gay, then expect them to be cellibate for life? Or worse, to live their entire life a lie?

If he didn't create them, why would God care if someone was gay?

As I posted earlier my sister-in-law is gay. She has been "different" since the first day I met her, she was 5. (She's now a grown woman.) I've seen her try to live a lie. Try to be something she is not. And all parties involved ended up hurt. Now that she has been honest with herself, her family, and the entire world, she has been treated terribly. This coming from a society who claims to be Christians.

Ya think maybe chemicals are responible for some poor b...... turning into heterosexuals too?

I think he was saying that a physical mutation or deviation like hermaphroditism could be triggered by the environment, NOT that pollution causes gayness...though that would be FUNNY as hell!

Thanks for the info, eqgumby.

So you laughed

Sorry if that offended you, I just thought it sounded absurd. Pollution making someone gay, or even pollution causing a mutation as specific as hermaphroditism seems absurd if you think about it.

Ever heared of the art of misunderstanding? You where supposed to laugh, and you did

Take care, my friend

You're sarcasm was lost on me, sorry. Too much time here has made me numb to subtlety.

Sorry to hear that, my friend.

Yeah I was definitely talking about the mutation of being a hermaphrodite possibly being caused by modern day pollution or chemicals, just a thought because I believe doctors are somewhat perplexed about its origins. Now homosexuality is something completely different.

That's all very well, slayer, but how do we get rid of heterosexuality?

I mean, if ya think about it, Slayer, then the problem is that there's too many men, too many people making too many problems, and not much love to around

I know that Christians are guilty of using the phrase 'You are going to Hell', but as many point out, this is against Biblical teaching. We are not to judge people. There is a difference between judging and making judgements about actions, though.

Judging is rendering the final verdict. To say that someone is going to Hell is to judge them. It works both ways though, if you think about it. To say that someone is going to Heaven is also judging them. Making a judgement about actions is to declare where the source of the action is coming from. According to the Bible, there are only two forces in the world. God and not-God (Satan). The very definition of sin is actions that are not of God. To say that something is a sin is to declare that it is not from God. Christians have to do this on a daily basis. Making judgements about actions is an essential part of the Christian walk.

I don't believe that God makes anyone gay. The Bible declares homosexuality, unnatural relations, to be a sin and sin can't come from God. People tend to think that if someone is born a certain way then God did it, but that is not the case. The Bible is very clear about something known as Original Sin and that people are automatically born sinful. Being born with sin is not God's doing, it is simply a by-product of having an earthly father.

If by 'being honest with yourself' you mean to live by the feelings you have inside of you and 'living a lie' is to surpress your inner urges, then all Christians live a lie. Everyone who follows Christ is called to crucify themselves. In order to share in Jesus' glory we must share in His suffering and this is done by spiritually killing yourself and becoming a new creation in Christ. That is what being 'born again' is about. You take all your feelings, all your emotions, everything that makes you the person you are and you crucify it on the cross. To deny yourself is required of the Christian faith. Noone is excluded from this.

Because even god is a hypocrite?

?

i have worked with an hermaphrodite. it was years before he/she told me. in the intervening time before knowing, i often wondered if he/she was a boy/girl. it was very hard to tell. the name was one which could be male or female too. didn't strike me as wrong, just curious.

sorry to hear about your sister in law. My mother stated she always knew I was a bit 'different' from about that age as well. So when I came out at 15 it wasn't a surprise . No arguements. no judgement , nothing. ( it seems the only area my mother ever supported !) all my other siblings are straight. I'm the oldest girl. ( and my fathers only daughter again the oldest = my mother remarried) I've never had a problem with religion in my family either. Now from the ignorant in society ? sure. beer bottles thrown at you as you come out of the bar by sexually insecure redneck bible thumping morons.

what they don't get , as alot don't want to accept here on the boards is science is soooo close to the seat of sexuality in it's studies. the thinking is it's a mix of genes and chemicals during pregnancy. aka YOUR BORN THAT WAY. just like your born straight. you don't get to choose your sexuality. it's who you are.

I didn't 'choose' this life. No one chooses to get treated like a second class citizen. or to the extream get killed . It's who I am. who God made .

which would make the bible moot and wrong. But educated people with common sense , even those who love God, already know this.

Just like those who claim to know thier bible and understand the culture of the time don't realize or deny ignorantly that those gay people they are talking about in the OT and NT* relate to prostitutes and the uneducated view that mans' 'seed' was actually ' the child' and the woman just a repository aka oven. and that they pick this out of the OT yet ignore the rest (* that's where the reference for it came in the NT , from the old law ) - so either you believe all of the OT or not . take a pick. and if so you better pick up stones to get those adultures and those who are divorced and remarried. as well as those bratty kids we can't control. ect......

of course you didn't choose to be that way, that just reiterates my point.

I take offense to your broad statements about 'educated people with common sense' know the Bible is wrong. I am not uneducated and I have common sense. What you are really saying is 'if you are smart then you will think like I do and agree with me', which is the exact view held by those 'Christians' who are labeled close-minded and ignorant. You are no better.

You are certainly entitles to your views about the Bible's definition of homosexuality. Doesn't mean they are right. It doesn't mean that millions of Christians have been fooled into believing something that is not true and you have somehow stumbled onto some big revelation. I do not share your view.

Time and time again I have shown the reasons why Christians are not under the OT laws. You choose to ignore it so I will not rehash it again.

I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. I find it hard to comprehend how cruel man can be.

When my son came home and told he learned about animals being gay in "Ag" class I was surprised to say the least. We live in the buckle of the bible belt and he attends a very small school. I'm sure that most parents did not agree about this subject being brought up. He is constantly getting into religious debates with other classmates. (And I am proud to say he sticks to his guns and does not back down.) He is literally the only one in his class who does not believe the same way as others.

Last year my middle child was given about 20 "tracts" from a friend at school (in one day). If you have never had the pleasure of viewing one of these you really need to. Just look up Jack Chick on the web. Needless to say my husband and I were in the principal's office the next morning. We were outraged. In as pleasant manner as I could reminded the principal of the separation of church and state. (He was given these on school grounds.) I suppose we were the only ones to complain.

being gay isnt wrong
its just those bible thumpers who want to bash whatever is different

What I am getting from your post is that gays come from satan?

So you think that if someone asks God to "take it away" from them he will? Don't you think that too many people have already tried this only to "fail" and think they are not religious or spiritual enough?

And which bible do you read from? Is yours the only right one? If so, how do you know this? I personally don't think that God wants me to judge, period. My God would rather me teach tolerance of other religions, other denominations, other people.

If you are correct about original sin then there are no small children, no babies in heaven. They haven't had the chance to rid themself of whatever sin they possessed and walk in the Christian faith.

if christians aren't under the OT law than what was written about gays in Romans ect .... in the NT needs to be removed becaused they based that on OT law !!! or don't you get that ? they cherry picked from the OT writing the NT.

it isn't just my view of the bibles definition of homosexuality but most scholars. it is right. try reading Leviticus again and bare in mind what they are speaking about - prostitution . It has been christians who have taken out of context for years . This isn't some big revelation. Just as Mary Magdalene was never a prostitute. never. and the church had always known that and finally admitted that in the 60's. Yet most wrongly think she was. this isn't just my 'view' . it is the truth. but your fear keeps you from realizing it. sodom was not destroyed because of homosexuals but rape - gang rape. and that is something mostly committed by straight men as a sign of control and power and humiliation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and no I didn't choose to be gay any more than you had chosen to be straight if you are , so how is it in your twisted view a sin ? If you think it is than you should abstain as well ? why is it right for you to love but not right for me ?

Just like it was a sin to marry someone out of your faith in the bible - why aren't you fighting for denying rights to people who are interfaith that want to marry ?

hypocrites.

alright, calm down. I only want to have this discussion if it will be in a civil manner, it is not my intention to upset anyone, nor force my views. I only seek to present accurate Biblical teaching.

You still don't understand the reasons behind the Old and New Covenants. Please read my post here.

Most scholars agree with your view on the Biblical definition of homosexuality? I don't believe that. I read many many reports and theories and this is the first time I have run across it.

Homosexual sex is just as much a sin as pre-marital sex. There is no difference between the two. It is just as much a sin a gossiping, or being a drunkard, or a number of other things. I am not fighting to deny anyone's rights, I am strictly apolitical. I am merely stating plainly what the Bible says.

I haven't read throughout this whole topic yet, but I'm not sure anyone has brought this up yet. A lot of the sins in the bible are based on social constructs. I guess many will consider homosexuality a social issue, but I disagree. Even though I am not a Christian and don't believe in god, I agree that many sins are correct. For example I don't believe in killing or adultery or stealing etc., but homosexuality is a biological issue. They don't choose to be that way. I doubt anyone would choose to be harassed as much as they do. But beyond that, there are physiological differences between a homosexual and heterosexual person. The anterior portion of the hypothalamus is correlated with sexual orientation. Heterosexual men's anterior hypothalamus is twice as large as a womens'. Similarly, heterosexual men's anterior hypothalamus is twice as large as a homosexual mans'. Furthermore, to eliminate any confounding variables, men who pretended to be homosexual were also measured, and they had the same size hypothalamus as a heterosexual man. It is not a choice, therefore it should not be a sin in the bible.