we all know about the dragon
from the heavenly dragons of china
to the devils of europe
even the mayans knew about these mystic creatures
if they dont or never did exist, how could societies that never met until relatively modern times all have numerous acounts of dragon sightings? with the similaritys in the dragons sighted suggest's that they migrate depending on the seasons (like birds?)
what do u think?

I would say it is due to exaggerated stories of what explorers may have seen in places like Africa and India. Mostly probably just large snakes. Maybe fire originated from the fact that snakes stick their tongue out to smell. I would probably be scared of a 30 foot python myself, especially if I had never seen such a creature.

[quote name='the lazy skeptic' date='Sep 3 2007, 04:07 AM' post='1865519']
we all know about the dragon
from the heavenly dragons of china
to the devils of europe
even the mayans knew about these mystic creatures
if they dont or never did exist, how could societies that never met until relatively modern times all have numerous acounts of dragon sightings? with the similaritys in the dragons sighted suggest's that they migrate depending on the seasons (like birds?)
what do u think?
[/qu

All the same stories all around the world, more than a coincidence

its just coincidence they call it "dragon" its just their english name. they have different shape. chinese dragon looks like big serpent, european dragon looks like dinosaur

most dragons do look like the westen ones, their are alot more cultures than just europe and china that incorperate dragons, i can see the europe/asia having some contact and similar ideas on dragons and that could possibly explain dragons if you look at things like that but that doesn't explain stories from north and south america involving dragons and similar creatures, and from of what i've read most dragons were similar in appearance to european dragons, how asians came up with something as different as they did i don't know. what i do know is that for dragons not existing, there is alot of seperate cultures that have really close descriptions of them for a mythical creature

Hey...isn't there a prize for 111th Dragon Thread on this here site? If so then I think you've won.

*applause*

*hands you a congratulatory plaque and ham*

I know a couple of dragons exist, Anne Robinson, Paris Hilton etc.

I believe that some of the belief in dragons came from finding fossils of dinosaurs. Lots of the mythical creatures came from people finding bones and coming to conclusions which were not scientific in nature. Since the same type of dinosaurs ranged over a vast area, different cultures could have the same kind of creature in mind.

I believe that a dragon exists, and is simply the manifestation of an intelligence that occupys this realm, with us. And possibly its' subordinates are able to manifest in this fashion as well. I don't believe there is anything lovable or squeezy cute about it, though. I think it is a power, bound to this earth, and it deceives men, and beguiles women, where ever it can find the gullible. ~Jackal

i dunno about dragons, im not sure if they once existed or not but i would be cool if they did and they could communitcate with us

While we in the west are quick to point out how the Chinese and Native Americans made dragons into Gods, fewer people are aware that the Bible is full of dragon lore as well, and like virtually every other stone and bronze age culture, the Hebrews worshipped the dragon as well. Yahweh originates from the Cannanite water dragon Yaw, also called Yam, and when this is understood, everything in the Bible becomes more clear.

This is why Yahweh breathes fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils. Why his highest associates are dragons, the seraphim, that in Hebrew means fiery flying serpents. He is the same dragon Enlil that floods the world in the original "Noah" story imitated a millenia later in the Bible. He is a huge physical creature that blocked the Jordan river with his body, and he demanded meat every day, including captured virgins and the first born sons of every Hebrew family. And like every self-respecting dragon, he loves treasure as well, and the Bible explains how for a price, you could buy your child back from the dragon. It is all explained in far greater detail, and how these stories relate to world wide dragon legends in my upcoming book which I am happy to say should be out for Christmas.

And no, this is the 113th dragon thread! But then, dragons are the oldest, and best known of all cryptic animals.

very interesting. i hope dragons exist. i'd like one for a pet. kinda like the dragons in that eragon film

Yes a Dragon really exists...But you got to collect the seven Dragonballs in order for him to appear...!!!

you mean you can't just buy them from a specialist pet shop?

Your answer reveals that you obviously never seen the "Dragonball" anime...

i wasn't being serious. my daughter watches dragonball z, if that's the same thing. they collect balls on that, i think.

The anime isn't only for collecting the dragonballs...but also the heroes in it have super powers...blasting energy waves,they can fly with the speed of light e.t.c. But lets not get out of this topic too much...Its not our topic anyway...Respect to the owner...

Well, 1.68, while you might be able to raise an infant dragon, you would be raising an intelligent being, not a fantastical animal. Of course, if you found an adult, you might end up as it's pet.

As to dragons looking different and having just been named the same: most all dragons have a rather sinuous build to them, the exception being more of today's dinosaur inspired dragons. They have much more in common. As to new explorers just naming other's legends "dragons" there are many legendary creatures of Native Americans that fit the description "dragon" without anyone having officially naming them thus.

As to dragons being non-physical deceivers: I do believe that they have a powerful mental presence, but a physical one as well. They can be either deceptive or honorable, but being most wise and cunning-how would you know? While I believe them as capable of good as evil, I will agree that they are not "cuddly" (unless you mean by being wrapped in one's tail coils).

P.S. Drac: It's good to see you back.

I would actually want a dragon girlfriend

Not this again. Jeez. No dragons don't exist if anything they were just humans trying to make sense of gigantic bones found all over the world on ever continent, found in the ground commonly know as fossils of commonly known organisms called dragons.

Also I am disappointed with Draconic Chronicler as he keeps trying to prove his point while never replying to a rebuttal of mine, thus "Chickening out" in a way. Not even supporting his favourite subject. Tsk.




Scary Swiftpaw.

Joel.

PS. I love how several people assume they know the nature, appearance, and lifestyles, etc. of a 'dragon". I find it hard to know exactly how a non-existent organism and/or object could act in the real world. Well I guess if you made it up it would.

Yeah I don't get it either. They most likely all be results of overactive imaginations of the explorers that came back with tales of big reptiles or from coming across dinosaur bones.

For me dragons are about as real as the cyclops of Greek folklore. But what is interesting is that more than likely the Greeks actually thought cyclops were real because they probably came across some mastodon skulls. And where it looks like the eyes sockets on these skulls would be, it is one hole. But this hole is actually where the trunk came out. The eye sockets are on the sides. But the Greeks would probably not have known this, so they figured it was a giant creature with one center eye. See, check it out below. I believe much the same thing happens with dragon tales.

I would agree with everything you said about the cyclops, based on the Mastadon, but this does nothing to discredit the firm belief in dragons by ancient and medieval people in every part of the world. If you knew more about this subject ancient greek writers ACKNOWLEDGED all of the cyclops were long since dead, just as we do the dinosaurs. But when it came to dragons, their greatest naturalists, like Herodatus and Pliny ALL acknowledged living dragons including flying ones that were commonly seen. Dragons were mankinds earliest Gods, that allegedly taught them things like animal husbandry and agriculture in different cultures seperated by vast oceans. How would such universal ideas be accepted all over the world if simply based on fossil bones, nor would the ancient people even understand the bones came from a reptile. Much dragon lore comes from places where there are virtually no reptiles, and certainly no large ones such as Norther europe where there are only tiny lizards and snakes.

Real scientists like Carl Sagan are perplexed by the universal belief in dragons, as we find in his writings. And the large cryptic animals still regularly reported today are either completely fake, (which is unlikely becasue of the many sightings) or are creatures too clever to be captured or seen at close distance, becasue they are "dragons"

Nothing to do with "Chickening out". You have demonstrated you know too little about any of this to waste my time discussing it with you. You really need to have a basic understanding of the worldwide belief in these same creatures all over the world for thousands of years, and this clearly seems to be above your level of knowledge. Wait for the book.

so... ancestor from all around the world are drunk when they drawing dragons in their temple ?
and its just gigantic coincidence they all have the same illusion the drawing look almost the same ?
alien...

thats kinda what i think, explains their disapearance, and maybe why some of the people worshipping them liked building pyramids

Is it not possible that the Europeans heard tales of huge snakes from India or Africa? Yes. And this info could have been greatly exxagerated or misunderstood by the explorers bringing back stories. The fact that Europe and other places aren't littered with large reptiles just leaves me to believe even more so that they got their ideas of dragons from stories and folklore. With nothing to look at for the majority population the mind is free to make up their own ideas of what they don't understand.

And you say much dragon lore comes from places without large reptiles. Well, yeah, because the places with them like India, see the actual creatures on a more regular basis. And they would have an understanding of what the creature really is.

Even though I love dragons, and I wish they were real, I know they aren't real. And I admit, I hate myself for thinking that dragons aren't real.

Actually, I have no proof of the existance of such creatures, so feel free to not believe. The fossils+dragons theory fits well, except in places where there are no native large reptiles. These people weren't great naturalists with regards to fossils, one rhino fossil was assumed to be a dragon in Germany. So, why did people assume that the giant fossils were reptilian - why not giant mammals?

While there is no hard evidence of such creatures, there are many who are either following native belief systems, or those looking for more information, who still have wonder about them.

The harder question is: why all of the legends? The similarities are striking: one would expect legends of native creatures to dominate.

Most land had dinosaurs living on it at one point in time.

Please enlighten me on how legends and myths of a creature that bears many similarities in many cultures makes it a real animal? That's what I don't understand. There is worldwide belief in God, does that make him real? Not really.

Also, I have asked you many questions about how these 'animals' or 'beings' as you'd probably prefer elude being seen, or captured. Supposedly there were thousands of sighting of them in ancients times, why not anymore? You have also used dodgey answers to my questions saying "they can phase intyo other dimensions and realities" and "They can avoid escape from sonar and nets because they are alot smarter than humans", i'm paraphrasing here, but it seems like you think you know everything about dragons and even seem to know them personally. You haven't really discussed any real PROOF you have behind believing they exist other than some alleged parts in a bible and some drawings on walls and chapels all over the world. Which may I add can you quote the parts you mention from the bible so other people can see the sections where these dragons are mentioned along with which book you are reading out of.

Also, dinosaur fossils have been discovered in every continent, possibly every country on Earth, so also give me a rubuttal for why you think its not possible for dragons to be dinosaurs?

Along with those things, in order to purchase your book, I need to know what its title, price, seeling locations, and the name you wrote under are.

Aswell for your enjoyment I will cite my previous reply to you in the "Dragons in the news..." thread.



I hope I am to your 'level of knowledge' now.


Joel.

P.s. The bible is not meant to be taken seriously.

One good example is the Loch Ness Monster, a creature alive in the 6th century AD that was essentially a "dragon" that seemed to have rsponded to human commands This "dragon" has had over 10,000 sighting many by very reliable people, and so close up to clearly prove it was a huge ane entirely unknown animal. So reliable are some of these accounts that millions of dollars have been spent on scientific investigations.

The animal is not found, and the scientists do not think it could exist becasue they think it is a dumb animal that their sonor should have detected.

But if the creature is intelligent, and able to leave the water, (as several eyewitness reports have proven), then their sonor is not going to detect it.

And there are many reports of many similar creatures all around the world. People will continue to see them because they are real, but they will not be caught becasue it is taken for granted by scientists that they are either simple animals that should be caught, and if they cannot catch them their arrogance decides they are only figments of the imagination.

Many of the cryptid reports of large reptilian creatures may be these same dragons. With human like intelligence, but the super senses of a predatory animal, of course they could elude humans and may even succesfully prey on them. Think of the tens of thousands of people who totally vanish without a trace every year.

Of course they are not abducted by aliens, that would be just silly. They are obviously eaten by dragons.

I thought Nessie was a plesiosaur(if that's how you spell it). Isn't it?

Heh your post made me think of a couple photo's.. dragon's that look like typically described ogopogo and loch ness monster (interpretation is subjective of course). These are of mosaics on the floor of a room in the vatican museum (Edit to add Vatican museum 500-ish years old) ..

Click to view attachment

To me what looks like Nessie and the Ogopogo chilling with.. what I presume is Neptune.

Click to view attachment

A solo of the Ogopogo look alike

Okay there are a few things that I find wrong with your post, you or anyone else can argue with what I am getting from this here.

1) Even though 'reliable' people has supposedly seen this animal like doctors etc. They can still lie. I would assume that if a doctor will lie about malpractice they could lie about something like this just as easily. Also many reliable scientists have lied about making amazing technological breakthroughs, which when asked to see were denied the priveledged and later found out to be faking it the entire time. All this just for some media-attention, possibly like a old-school version of a modern-day nipple slip, those get lots of attention, and sometimes they are done for that reason only: attention. If there was so many of these sightings then why did they forget the most important thing, the proof?

2) You said which I find abnormally wrong, because most eye-witness reports can be discredited because natural effects such as confusion, darkness, or the witness being tired. Sure some people may have seen something, but that doesn't make it a dragon/plesiosaur it doesn't really make it anything, seeing as how eye-witness reports arn't very stable evidence of anything.

3) With all due respect, seeing as how there is like 6 Billion people on Earth, I would have to say that 10,000 people is not that many, statistically that is. 10,000 is not a large number these could all most all be people running away, being murdered without having their bodies found (don't forget the eye-witness reports though!), and rape victims, etc. Though I will admit some people probably disappear under mysterious circumstances not necessarilly alien abduction, and for certain not being eaten by dragons.

Also I am still waiting to the responces of my other question.

Thank you,
Joel.

Nessie is not an anything yet, as it is not proven to be there. But a plesiosaur is unlikely because they were not capable of lifting their heads straight up out of the water, which is a common description of lake monsters.

I have explained why it is likely that dragons are results of overactive imaginations in the past and mistaken identities of dinosaurs. You said your self that many of the stories occur in land with no native currently living large reptiles. So this leads me to believe that in places like India, where they have large snakes and access to them at all times, they don't carry stories of dragons because they know the true nature and characteristics of the animals. But when someone brings a story to Europe of a huge snake unlike anything they have seen, sticking his tongue out (source of fire perhaps?) it is pretty easy to understand how quickly imaginations would take over and run wild.

It's true they might lie, but the more 'reliable' people who see it, the better chances they are telling the truth. For doctors or scientists, publicly lying about something like this might cost them their career if they are exposed as having lied. It means the risk for them, compared to an average joe, of lying about witnessing something is much more significant - and without evidence the gain is limited so it's a question of why would they bother. As far as the proof itself, they are limited essentially in these cases to photography and video right? Taking a photo of an unexpected event at a generally unknown location (essentially not knowing where in your field of vision it will appear) is tricky even in daylight. They will often end up blurry and useless, assuming you can even get the camera prepped in time before the 'creature' disappears. Video eliminates worrying about the unexpected timing (assuming you have lots of tape), but the quality is often so low as to be useless in identifying anything. And it's not like we have no evidence of these creatures, it's just bad evidence and easily disputable.



However there are many group sightings, which is stronger evidence than an individual sighting as it means the odds are pretty low it's imagination. It of course doesn't prevent misidentification. Also there is some psych tests that show people will claim to see something if the rest of the group says they see it, even if they don't believe it themselves. However, group sighting are still much stronger evidence, especially when the members of the group are unlikely to be acquainted.



Statistically speaking the world's population isn't evenly distributed, it's focused into 2 or 3 regions (China and India alone represent half the world population), the whole of europe and north america is 1 billion, and even that is not evenly distributed as it is now focused in urban centers. What you need to compare 10000 witness to is the number of unique people that have passed through the regions in question - this might be much higher percentage wise.

There certainly isn't proof. While I believe that some sightings were honest, and possibly even genuine, that does not constitute repeatable proof. Nonetheless, many people have had a profound experience, whatever the origin.

Dinosaur fossils do account for some of the legends. In China, herbalists grind up fossils "dragon bones" for medicinal use. However, it is odd that people in cold climates without large reptiles would assign these fossils as those of giant reptiles. In Germany for instance, there is a rhino fossil skull that was presented as a dragon skull.

Weather you think there is a chance that they exist at all, it is clear that the concept of the dragon is firmly embedded in the mind of man. We quite literally see the legends everywhere, and at all times. Even today, it is a symbol that gathers instant attention. Carl Sagen attempted to find an explanation for this in "Dragons of Eden" (whereupon he postulates that it is a remminent of mammalian mental programming from when small furry things tried not to get killed by dinosaurs).

yea in ASIAN cultures dragons exist, but these days they exist SPIRITUALLY........like most lakes are occupy by a dragon. There's just soo many stories....but perhaps if you go to a lake and you were to joke areound about dragons, yea they willcome in your dream and stuff. they are supposely protectors of the lakes.

One time my cousin went to a lake and was joking around that a dragons was pulling him into the water, well his freind's mom is a psychic. They never told her where they went but that night the dragon came to her dream and told her that her son and his freinds were messing around at the lake and to not do it anymore cause it's serious stuff. yea next day they got caught.

There's always stories of dragons (spiritually) pulling people from lakes and rivers. Like a spirit of the water needs a wife so he will wil in and drown a girl so he can marry her spiritually. It may seem like non-sense but after a couple asian people drown at the same lake , you kind of belive it. Like people that have life jackets on still can drown. Yes in AMERICA

It's all in the crazy ASIAN culture

yea in ASIAN cultures dragons exist, but these days they exist SPIRITUALLY........like most lakes are occupy by a dragon. There's just soo many stories....but perhaps if you go to a lake and you were to joke areound about dragons, yea they willcome in your dream and stuff. they are supposely protectors of the lakes.

One time my cousin went to a lake and was joking around that a dragons was pulling him into the water, well his freind's mom is a psychic. They never told her where they went but that night the dragon came to her dream and told her that her son and his freinds were messing around at the lake and to not do it anymore cause it's serious stuff. yea next day they got caught.

There's always stories of dragons (spiritually) pulling people from lakes and rivers. Like a spirit of the water needs a wife so he will wil in and drown a girl so he can marry her spiritually. It may seem like non-sense but after a couple asian people drown at the same lake , you kind of belive it. Like people that have life jackets on still can drown. Yes in AMERICA

It's all in the crazy ASIAN culture

Yea,
But seriously, dragons were a figure of imagination. The Asian people, all of Asia have their own dragon. In India and South East Asia, we have the Nagas, the dragons-serpent that is the ruler of heaven. In China, Japan and Korea, they have the Ryuu / Long, almost the same dragons as in other parts. But this was, I guess, due to the wide influence and conquest done by the Chinese empire and was greatly overrated especially by the silk road. Perhaps this is the trigger of the dragon phenomenon in Europe. You know old people. They thought that being realted to a mythological great creature is so cool and hip, they decided to adopt the legend.

Um nope they dont exist LOL
I thought about this question for a long time(1 second) and I say nope

EATEN BY DRAGONS, YES!!!!!!! dragons are smarter than people and lure people into the water, it's like they are telepathically reading your mind and hypnotizing people into the water, thats how dragons takes lives in the asian culture

Well, Capo, they certainly reside in the imagination (weather or not anywhere else is speculative). This myth has been around in most cultures before even the venerable Chinese Empire. Whatever phenomenon was responsible for planting the idea in the imaginations and cultures of the world happened very long ago indeed.

I wish they did exist... they're so magical..

whilst it would be interesting if they did exist ever, it is most unlikely that they did....at least in the form that they are thought of nowadays.

people around the world in many apparently different cultures have believed in creatures/entities that approximate to our conception of the flying serpent/dragon...but that doesnt mean that each had a common source. The differences in their conception are as important as their similar points. In some cultures that are said to revere a dragon or dragons we find that they are archetypes of serpent deities/entities; in other cultures a development of thought is discernable and with it the evolution of the concept. In some cultures where they are found folk recognised them as constructs, with powerful meaning and symbolism attached yes, but without believing they actually exist.

Many religions of the past have been 'mystery' religions...i personally include many of the modern ones in this category...quite simply i mean that there is significance to each 'level of understanding' that the paradigm embraces. the higher you go the closer you get to 'the truth'. Think of a scale from 1-10 with one being the lowest level of understanding....the folk at 5 or 6 might scoff at the primitive and supersitious beliefs of those at 1 or 2 but might think themselves to be scoffed at by those at 8 or 9. As the doors of perception open and a person moves from 3 to 4 to 5 they may feel outrage at the way they have appeared to have been lied to and might even try to lift those they had surpassed, they may become disilusioned and leave their faith or break away from the 'established' form. Those at the highest levels of understanding have either struggled through this inner conflict or beat a straight path, they usually perpetuate the system because they can see the reasons for each level, each mystery, each ritual, each superstition. It is important to point out that the levels of understanding do not always correspond to official levels within an institutionalized hierarchy.

the varience in their depictions and conceptions mean that no single creature can be responsible for each. so either there are myriad creatures to be included into a dragon 'class' or .....none exist as we conceptualise them today.
The fact that many people have believed in dragons, or believed that they have seen one does not mean that they have, or that they really exist.
This is as true of crowds of people as it is for individuals. Perception is a funny thing.

Yes, because everyone walks around with a camera or a camera phone so just in case they see a dragon they can take a picture and while i may not believe in nessie, you cant honestly expect people to get proof while they're amazed from seeing it

I'm not saying just photos are need for proof. From there being thousands of sightings to no sightings in the span of a few hundred years when dragons themselves are rumoured to live for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You still think that corpses, teeth, claws, scales, and yes photos of huge flying 30-120 foot serpents would exist.

amirite?

do ya think there might be some correlation between what u mentioned above and ....no ufo sightings a couple hundred yrs ago and thousands now?

have dragons been supplanted by ufos as the nutter's hallucination of choice? ....... or is that just what they want us to think?

(the statement above has taken into consideration space men theories relating to ancient cultures...and discarded it like some dirty nappy.)

Somehow I also hope the dragons were real. Imagine what we can have:

Dragon riders, dragon races, dragon polo, or think about high pursuit on a dragon's back. Now that's HARD COPY!