welll some people experience more supernatural things than others.....

Wrong! You are interpreting me as such. But wrong. To suggest I don't respect the subject, because I don't believe it, is childlike and very presumptious. Just because I don't believe what you do on this subject doesn't mean I don't respect the subject. It makes for good debate. But when all you have left to say is "people come from many worlds and can't accept ideas from other people's world," it shows you are out of ideas and cannot debate the subject at hand any longer. As I said before, it isn't about accepting the subject. It is about believing the subject of dragons to be factual creatures, which I just happen not to believe. It is up to you to present something, anything, to support your beliefs, but you have done no such thing. I have presented ideas and evidence on the idea of them being mythological. You have done no such thing to defend your viewpoint.

ok so stories aren't enough. isn't that how dragons are told throughout history, by stories, legends? if not stories then how else, you basically want me to catch you a dragon? no not so. nessie has not been captured, bigfoot has not been captured, nor ufo's , etc, stories are the evidence because it is as true as it can get

Didn't you say on your previous posts that you're going to leave? Or is it me that needs more education on English?
You have been so keen about dragon drowns people. Now prove it, provide your arguments with back ups information and stop answering questions with philosophical answers. I'm an Asian, and I'm proud of it. If we believe in something, we'll fight for it, even if people don't accepted it at the first time, we keep on doing it, until we dropped or they dropped. Now, spritually, logically and simply; give us the proof. That simple.

There is evidence for these other things you have mentioned. Thus, we can debate the subjects and the relevance and authenticity of the evidence at hand. You have done no such thing but state ideas, which are nothing more than ideas and your interpretation of how it is possible that they exist.


Just because we have stories does not make them true. Understand? You have to show that the stories are more than just stories, i.e. show evidence to back up the stories.

Uhm, so you're actually saying that Gollum, Dementors, Death Eaters, Batman and Ironman exist to? They're stories, btw, and according to you, they're "as true as it can get".

Have there been any recent sightings of dragons, or do people think that sea serpent sightings and sightings of dinosaur-like creatures are the basis for dragons?

ok give me an example of the evidence i shal present to you. do you want a footage? a bone, a teeth, a claw? i will re-peat myself again, they are smart creatures and are living on earth but on another plane, how can i get to that plane to borrow a piece of him and present it to you?

ok people i satrted this thread saying dragon's were spiritual ok, not physical creatures

Ah, I see. That is a little hard to wrap my head around, just understanding it. Its much easier to think of them as flesh and blood.

from what i've heard, they lure people into waters and take their spirits ok, that luring part involves the person's head. how can i present you evidence when all the hypnotizing happens in the head. the only way we knew what happened was because the dead came to his mom in a dream and presented what happened, yea that he was hypnotized and got his spirit taken away in the water. and the shaman went into a trance state and met with the dragons, again it is not physical. he tapped into the dragon's plane. that is all in the head, and i cant present any evidence to you guys if it all happened mentally, except through stories

There are just as many people that say they are physical creatures. Your explanation is a convenient cop out, nothing more.

Uh, ok. One more question though. How can you know all of this? Or, let's say, how do WE able to know all of this?
Do we need to see certain someone, went through a certain rituals or processes or something?

im sorry, but the only way is to hear stories told by the shamans because shamans are chosen individual people from a higher source that can tap into other realms through trance. unless your spirit get taken by the dragon, and by that time you're dead already. and no one really knows if the shaman is lieing or not but all the things they do just seem true somehow. i never grew up liking my culture but i don't care now, some stuff do seem true thought, you just got to experience things yourself

well I, myself never said anything about physical dragons so do not tend to use that against me. And you are telling me to present you with what I got, i did, and now you, you don't have anymore arguments except to accuse me of lieing again

Haha. I can't argue it because what you are saying cannot be debated. It is borderline religion. That is why I said you are copping out. I cannot debate something that you insist exists only in a spiritual realm. You can't even present a story with a drowning that has unusual circumstances around it. Show me a story where the people responsible for explaining a death in the lake, have no rational answer. You have done nothing other than say it is spiritual, therefore it can't be examined, therefore it must be true. All horribly speculative and imaginative. BTW, what you have, is nothing.

Actually, for many people, it is about religion. Thus, you could have the usual comparisons on philosophy, legends and the like, but not really a discussion on hard tangible proof. Such discussion of proof would fall into the nature of what people actually wrote, or what a legend actually was (verifiable true/false statements).

Unless a dragon lands somewhere and asks for an entire cow and a barrel of drink, to go, we are unlikely to have this move into the realm of hard, provable facts.

Thus, we should be willing to listen to opinions on such a forum, as the subject matter in innately speculative. Likewise, we should also refrain from demanding that agree with a theory, in the absense of hard proof.

I would be happy if a dragon was to ask me for a cow and a drink, especially if it's a fat female dragon

again i am only telling you what i've heard, but that is atleast more than what you are doing, you are only accusing me of lies

World history abounds with eye witness sightings of dragon, and they figure into virtually every world religio. Marco Polo, Herodatus, St, Augustine, Pliny the Elder all reported dragons, and seeing them seems to be a common appearance for centuries. In Enlgland alone, there are hundreds of sighting, and it can be argued that even Nessie is a probable dragon.

The two billion odd Christians essentially believe in a God that was previously known as Yaw, a Cannanite dragon who was probably also the Sumerian dragon Enlil who caused the great flood. The only idol Yahweh ever approved was a winged serpent dragon, and as long as it was worshipped Israel prospered. The highest heavenly creatures are called Seraphim which means fiery flying serpents, and the ancient Jews themselves translated the word to Drakons (Dragons). There are even dragons decorating the Menorah in the temple, and much Jewish and Christian literature describe dragons that are heavenly creatures.

So perhaps "heaven" is the plane where dragons go when they are not here, but they are clearly physical creatures becasue in every ancient culture they eat and drink. Chinese dragons are recorded eating humans they are very angry with, but on the other hand are recorded helping move a boat over a sandbar in exchange for wine. And the dragon Yahweh definately liked his meat, and even "liqour" as the Bible says.But in the Hebrew sense , the term "Burnt offering" is a misnomer. The offerings were expertly roasted to produce a delicious aroma to attract Yahweh -- not the stench of a crematorium. And the Jews boasted Yahweh actually consumed the offering. Only the pagans had to burn the offering to ash because their gods were false.

Though not commonly publicised, besides the traditional lambs and calves, Yahweh is given captive enemy virgins, and in Genesis He demands the first born son of every Hebrew family, as well as first born animals, and liqour. Dragons the world over always ask for liquour. One time Yahweh consort Ishtar, also originally called a "great and terrible dragon" in her Hymns, is described craving beer.

Some people claim The first born sons that are to be offered to Yahweh only mean to be priests or servants, but there is nothing else in the scripture to support this notion. On the contrary, they are mentioned in the same sentence as other "consumables" such as fruit and liquor.

22:29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

Also the next verse confirms these things are to be offered as Yahweh's food.

22:30 Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me.

There can be no doubt this meant sacrifices and not servitude. Think about it. In a short time there would be literally an army of servants/priests if every firstborn wasn't "consumed" as the Bible clearly implies is their fate.

Yahweh consumes two priests who were Aaron's sons becasue they didn't cook the sacrifice properly, so he ate them instead. It may be that they forgot to put salt on the fatted calf. This is possible, becasue after this event, the bible is very specific that all of Yahweh meat offerings must be salted.

Of course these sacrifices were orignally meant to literally "feed" the God. Why else would there be instructions how to specifically season the meat? And there are many passages in the Bible and other ancient literatrue of the Gods being attracted to the offering by the delicious smells.

Yahweh cuts the Israelites some slack later on during the exodus and allows His people to ransom their children out of being eaten. The meatier/heavier the intended victim, the more money it costs to buy him back from Yahweh, again clearly indicating their value as real "food"

Few other dragon gods seem to be as generous as Yahweh in these matters, but it may be that with so many animals available from his subjects, he preferred more gold over eating their children. This love of treasure is another universal trait of dragons. After all the midainites were slaughtered, Yahweh asked for all of the gold taken off their bodies to make the Israelites attone for the slaugher, and he did get all of those virgins too.The scriptures are very clear that Yahweh demanded the first born sons of all the Hebrews, and one time he was given no less than 32 virgins. But fortunately, Yahweh likes treasure too , so for the right price you could by your son back. Its all in the Bible.

I don't believe in "real" dragons. I would consider an evolutionary mishap from the pre-hisoric times like a Pterosaurs or whatnot.

Oy. I have never once called you a liar. You are not a victim.

I believe in most things but for some reason I dont believe in dragons,Its not that I dont want to believe because I do want to,because I think they could be one of the most beautiful creatures that would grace our world,Is it possable for someone like me to believe in such creatures?And as for them migrating like birds,It is quite possable that they can,most animals do"those that can fly" and some of them that crawl.But wouldn't it be possable for some of them to hibernate and maybe sleep all winter waiting for the right time to rise as the sun does everyday.You tell me,like I said I want to believe but this would be hard for me to do,How does one believe?

No one is demanding anyone agree. Just presenting why I have the position I do. And because I don't agree on the subject I am not openminded or what-have-you. But I am the open-minded one here because I am willing to listen to the stories. But they just happen to not add up. Just because someone refutes them or ask for evidence(how crazy ) they are not uneducated or unwilling to believe. But if anyone can't be open to the idea of these being nothing but folkare, then these are the close-minded people.

Wow, that's kinda hard to do (and believe) as the shamans here says otherwise, they say that dragons live in heavens and require nothing from us but our respect and sometimes, spiritual foods like prayer. They don't drown people, instead, the dragons sometimes helps people in trouble, especially when they're about to die of unnatural cause. Now may I ask you, what culture are you from? So I can give an "amen" to your opinion?

Actually, BBall, I was not criticizing your conduct. I was criticizing the tendencies of some, who if they believe in a myth, insist that others do, even without evidence to prove it. We see this here on the forums with cryptids, aliens, psi powers, and conspiracy theories. While I enjoy speculating upon such (else I would not be here) it is unreasonable to demand belief without proof. I myself think that dragons have a presence, I just don't demand anyone except such as fact.

I apologize for any misunderstanding.

No problem. And I know that it does happen.

Edit-I wasn't trying to accuse you of doing it either, so I hope it didn't come out that way at you.

Can you tell us what beliefs/culture that use/believe the same thing about the dragons just like yours?

umm my culture is Shamanism i think, never really cared bout it but just played along, yea it's the culture where people worship, not worship but like ask their dead ancestors for help

I'm Hmong, well the traditional culture is Shamanism, it's sort of like worshiping your ancestors, I'm like a 4th genration Hmong-American so i don't nkow much. um i think the Chinese do the same thing i think

Wow, I admit I gotta browse the net for Hmong people, until I know what it's like. Apparently, both you and I came from the same roots, we're both of a same race. We might even share many common physical appearances. However, as you refered, your people believe in worshipping their ancestor and shamanism. So do we, but since the coming of Islam, we converted to Moslem and thus the traditional beliefs kinda blend with Islam. Well, we celebrate the deathday (just like birthday) of someone. We also still give offerings to earth and sea, although the prayer is in Arabic.
Ok, so I will not debate about your depiction of dragons again. It has became a religious/spiritual subject. I know nothing of the subject and it will be very unhealthy if I debate your believe. Thus, I officially "amen" to your arguments.

However, should you not going to take the subject into a religious matter, I'm glad to continue the debate responsibly and respectfully!

I didn't know that... I meant about the Indonesian - Hmong similarities (actually I kinda disagree). But anyways, Hmong traditional cloth really look like those clothes from Indonesia! (ethnics from Sumatra such as Minang)

Um, I was actually talking about "I" in personal. I mean about myself, not the general Indonesian. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

thank you for your respect of my culture. very interesting, what's your culture. so do you have the asian appearence?? ohh man i can't believe it we share soo much in common hahaah. yea what's your culture?

Well, as a nationality, I'm an Indonesian. But my father is Japanese and my mum is native Indonesian. So I kinda have the appearance of the Thai/Viet people. However, my skin color is darker, due to the exposure to sunlight (I love playing outside when I was a kid). We have our dragons too you know, in traditional Javanese (I live in the island of Java and my mum is an Indonesian from the Javanese tribe) we believe that the dragons live on them ountain and on the sea, they serve as the "royal ride" of the Queen Of The South, a godess/deity that resides in the depth of the Indian Ocean. On the mountain, the dragons were the messenger of the gods, sending heavenly news to random humans through revelations and dreams and sometimes helping those in need (like pouring rain for farmers being suffered by a long drought).

*hands out petty jeublance*

Drink up, folks, it's orange flavored!

oh that's great to hear, i am darker than my people myself too because i also played alot outside hahaha and still am an outdoors person. So Indonesians have muslim exposures? because i see some people with asian qualities but wear turbans.

Yes, we're like the biggest Muslim population in the world, even bigger than Saudi Arabia and neighbouring countries. We have approx 240 million people living on the country and like 90% of them are moslem. We're celebrating the Ramadhan now, where we do fasting everyday and cook some of the season's best dishes. It's the most sacred yet very festive month as all over the country they have feasts and crowds with fireworks etc.

Back to the topic, I think we got our influence of dragons from China and India. We Javanese kinda mixed them altogether.

great for you guys, do any of your race experience racism in the US?

Well, let's not talk about it here. It's a rather sensitive issue. I"ll PM you for the answer, let's stay with the dragons thingy, OK?

Whoaaa.... I never knew about the dragon of the Qeen of the South...

Do you know that urban legend, that if you wear green cloth at the beach of Parangtritis you will get drowned by the queen and she will has the wearer as her husband!?

Perhaps her dragon did it??

Yeah I know about that urban legend. But it's not just an urban legend, it's based on the fact that if you wear green, blue and white colored clothing while playing on the beach and you got drowned or being pulled by the wave, the SAR will never found you, let alone save you. For the colors I mentioned are actually the color of the ocean water, especially around the Parangtritis Beach, and the Southern parts of the Jogjakarta (where the beach Parangtritis is) are actually a trench, and it have the tendency of sucking people to the bottom, whenever they got drowned, so they prohibits all visitors to play on the water too far from the shore. I'm not sure it's the dragon though !

The universality of what we call "dragons" in folklore of various societies all over the world is very fascinating. Some of these cultures did not have contact with other cultures that are also familiar with "dragons". That means this is a global phenomenon and we must ask what could have "inspired" all these societies in same manner all over the world. I think dinosaurs. We all know that dinosaurs lived all over the planet. Their remnants are also found everywhere. Also, in the past, there should have been more sightings of actual living dinosaurs. Dinosaurs more or less resembled snakes, i think thats why dragons are also sometimes referred to as the "great serpents" or something similar. As for the "fire-spiting" and "flying", those seem like very typical exaggerations.

No, you only think you may have originally got your ifluence of dragons from China and Japan, but no, you certainly have your own dragon legends too, implying that people actually saw them. And they are part of Muslim lore too from Arabia, becasue every culture believed in them. Just like the dragons that fill the Bible, including Yahweh himself, Muslim theology accepts these same Biblical dragons. There is even a named serpent-dragon that judges humans in Islam that I once found in old muslim texts, much as the Cherubim dragons do in Christianity (though now they have turned them into cartoon angels).

Although many things are the same in both Judaism and Islam, the one big difference which few people realize is that the Jews and Christians worship Yahweh, who gets his name from Yaw, the Cannanite storm dragon who is the "son" (actually creation) of the Creator God El (Elohim) in the Bible. The Jews turned these two different entities into one, and the Christians imitated this. The Muslims however worship Allah, who is the Biblical El, and not His assistant dragon assigned to watch over the Hebrews.

In this respect, one must admit that the Muslims are the most enlightened of the three religions of the Bible, for unlike Judaism and Christianity, the Muslims worship the creator and not one of his many dragon assistants, that ancient man all over the world worshipped, so the Hebrews were hardly unique in this respect. But the dragons still "work" for El-Elohim-Allah. They are called seraphim in the bible which means fiery flying serpents, which the Jews translated to Drakons (dragons) in Greek. Ignorant Christians turned them into ffluffy, swan-winged "cartoon" angels, and probably the Muslims have too.

So to claim there are no dragons is to deny the word of God in the Bible, and Muslim teachings as well, though Muslims did not use the Greek word dragon in the Koran. You are as bad as the Jews and Christians who actually worship a dragon, only who are too ignorant of their scriptures to understand they are worshipping a dragon (Yahweh) and not the real Creator (El) .

(bold font mine)
~shaking his head in admiration~

Incredible....so, DC, it is your contention that all Christians (read, those who believe in Christ as the Son of God, aka Catholics, Protestants and Espicopalians) are actually worshipping a dragon when they acknowledge the name YHWH as the Creator, the Lord, from Old Testament to New? And that Jews that also worship YHWH are worshipping this same dragon?

So, only the followers of Islam have the right name, is that what we can see in your statement? Allah being this El, from your research, and El being the actual Creator.

So, everyone but Muslims are deluding themselves when they quote Revelations 12:9? "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Gee, such a degree of ignorance must make them especially difficult to listen to...

Now, not only do you hold the Truth about Dragons, you also know more then the largest religion (according to some reports) and all of their scholars. My hat is off to you, sirrah, for discovering what every other scholar in recorded history has missed.

I know that last comment is going to get a response of some kind, probably another reference to ancient original translations with no citation nor link because they are not online.

Thanks for the tribute WG, but it is not like I was the first person to know this. Once, much of the ancient Christian World understood the truth, but the Sect that would become the Roman Catholics, (largely composed of the former priests of pagan Rome), sadly "won" the battle of Christian ideology, slaughtered their detractors and burnt their scriptures. But we occasionally find them in archaeological contexts.

Read my post in the spirituality and religon forum and it will be much clearer. Jesus was very clear that Yahweh was not his Father, and he called to Eloi from the cross, not Yahweh. But as for the dragon in Revelation called Satan, he can be traced to the dragon who tricked Adam named Enki in the original Eden story, rather ineptly recalled in the Bible, hundreds of years later. And this dragon just so happens to be the brother of Enlil, the dragon who caused the deluge, and who introduced himself as Yahweh to Moses. This is why Yahweh and Satan are so chummy in the book of Job, toying with the lives of Job and his family so cruelly like some perverse game "dragons would play".

Everything I have stated here is fairly commonplace knowledge, and I have stated the sources in many previous posts. But if you think I have said anything that is not documented, by all means say so, and I will provide a source.

It is not so much that Christianity is consciously "worshipping the dragon", they have simply mixed up the Creator's dragon assistant Yahweh, with the Creator Himself, El. It is actually kind of a funny and ironic case of mistaken identity. But perhaps this explains the prophecy in Revelation, for lets face it, not many people worship dragons anymore, except the worshippers of Yahweh, of course. This cannot refer to worshippers of Satan, becasue to Satanists, he is just as fake as God to them. They are simply atheists who pretend to worship Satan. But my the book should be out by Christmas, and then everything will be a lot clearer, with plenty of ancient Christian pictures of dragons in heaven, for this was once well known despite the modern cover-up.

Ya man, let's burn some roots and prasie the Jah for my dreadlocks...

Oh well. I actually dislike talking anything about religion, even dragons. I think I'll always pass aside any proof from religion about dragons. You know. I want to study about a true, felsh and bone dragons. Not a named dragons worshipped by you know who and doing the you know what!

Ahhh, you must be speaking of the great and mighty "Puff"!

seriously, Capo, I doubt that we will find much in the way of scientific, independently verifiable, evidence. We will find cultural anecdotes, and sightings, but little more. They either never were , have left (and may return) , or are just too good at hiding . We may find something solid, but I wouldn't count on it.

Who knows, maybe they will show up in plain sight again?

Yeah, like it's a trend. But okay, I'm going to agree with you. But for now, I'm pretty much satisfied with an old SNES and a beat em up called Double Dragon. Good memorabilia of the 90s...

There was a story in Foreign Correspondant about a Dragon Slayer last night. I was suprised to see the Bethlehem temple visited by both Muslim and Christian. It seems both faiths believe in Saint George. Strange, they rub themselves with the chains that once held the saint. As I know you will read this DC, please forgive my following description, which to you no doubt will seem baby talk laymans terms based on stupid imaginings, but in the spirit of getting my point across in the broadest possible sense, after seeing the two cultures embrace a common ideal, Dragons suddenly seemed a great deal more like Dragonheart than Smaug.