Well, Psychie, I am only familiar with the storybook version of the legend (that variously places him in England, France, Germany, or Ethiopia rescuing a princess, village woman, or virgin pagan priestess, from a dragon, evil knight, or pagan priest). This is the first I had heard of chains, or Jerusalem. I would be interested in what you had heard on the legend. DC, I am also interested in what you have heard of the original. While I usually find dragonslayer myths somewhat odious, I am curious.

As an interesting aside, St. George is the patron saint of Briton, yet the red dragon of Aurthur, Rome, and Wales is still an important part of it's symbolism. (Britons, feel free to correct any error of mine )

When they first mentioned the story, they only mentioned the word Saint. The Muslim people call him .....darn it, I can't remember, I was not sure if it was a different title or simply a translation. It gave me quite a different perspective on the legend, interesting that both religions embrace the one source. They actually get the chains he was tortured in ad pass them over their bodies. There is a picture of him spearing a dragon in the temple, not too unlike the one at Wiki.

Here is a link to the site with the show, strangely there is no link to a segment like the other stories, but it is on the front page. The priest in the last picture at the end of the page was interviewed. They said articles could be viewed online, might pay to see it is available, it was only a 20 min segment.

One thing that always strikes me when I see representations of St. George is always how slight he is portrayed.. Typically when you think of someone who would wear full suit of armor, you think of them being rather muscular. I know I'll probably regret these choice of words but it makes me think of a Tolkien style elf. Maybe Hollywood style medieval armor has messed up my perception too much though

While so many people consider St. George the consumate dragon slayer, his story is by far the most ridiculous of them all, so it is no wonder he has been "disbarred" as a Saint, and unfortuantely too, for it would seem it was mainly becasue of the dragon legend.

The original Saint George, if he was real at all, supposedly lived around the time of Diocletion in the 3rd century AD (when Christians still understood dragons to be heavenly creatures incidentally, as we see in scriptures such as the Apocolypse of Baruch). For over ONE THOUSAND YEARS ther was NEVER a Dragon associated with Saint George until a Genoese Archibishop invented the story around 1270 and included it in his book the Golden Legend. But becasue every Christian believed in and feared dragons at this time, the story was well liked. Although the story was originally supposed to take place in Libya, the British put the story in their own country, just as they put Joseph of Arimathea, a Jewish Rabbi from the time of Jesus, also migrating to Britain.

The story appears to be plagiarised from the Greek myth of Perseus, though in fairness, virtually every culture seemed to have stories of humans offering dragons human sacrifices, and even Yahweh of the Bible, who some scholars claim was originally the Cannanite dragon Yaw, and before that the Sumerian dragon Enlil, also demanded the first born son of every hebrew family. In any case, if there is truth to the dragon legends, after feeding them their children for centuries, after they finally departed, many cultures seemed to have stories of the "last sacrifice" in which the dragon is finally slain by a hero. Although in the case of Yahweh, he simply lets the people give him gold instead of their children on a sliding payscale based on their relative nutritional value.

That the Moslems venerated St George is not well known, but not surprising. Remember the Moslems already recognized Jesus as a prophet, and when they reconquered the holyland, found churches venerating St. George. Like Christian, they bleived in and feared dragons as well, and they have their own dragon slayers too. So by fearing dragons, having a local dragon slaying saint around, even a Christian one would not be a bad idea. The Moslems also acknowledged apparently "good dragons" of heaven as Christians also believed in. In one painting of Mohammed ascending to heaven on a human headed horse, he is escorted by a dragon. There is also a "wise" giant serpent or dragon that questions people trying to enter heaven, and this is similar to the dragon in heaven that swallows sinners in the book of Baruch that was well known to both Jews and Christians.

I did not see the program so I am not aware if there was a claim that St. George slew the dragon in Bethlehem. The Bible mentiones a "Dragon's Pool" in Jerusalem and perhaps this was incorporated into one of the many versions. I suspect the dragon's pool might have referred to a statue of a dragon that may have spewed water from its mouth. Remember that the holiest Jeiwsh temple artifact in the time of Jesus, the Menorah, was decorated with dragons, and I believe this is becasue it was understood Yahweh was a dragon God, just as the Cannanites believed. There are many clues suggesting this in the Old Testament as my upcoming book reveals.

I don not understand what you meant by this program making you think dragons were "less like Smaug and more like Dragonheart". Both dragons seemed unrealistic to me for various reasons, though Draco of Dragonheart seemed so sacharine-sweet that he could well have been one of the seraphim dragons except for the fact he was killed, though the whole film was quite stupid and implausible to begin with.

Thank you, DC, this helps explain some of the schizophrenia of the St. Goerge Myth. I was not aware that he had been "disbarred" as a saint. When did this happen?

St George was never "disbarred" as a saint. He's still one of the most, if not most venerated saints of the eastern orthodox church. The legend of the dragon came from turkey. Before that he was always depicted as a roman soldier. The more modern and complete version places him in lybia and has the dragon taking nest in the only fresh water spring in the village which forces the villagers to sacrifice to him or not get water. The dragon is an allegory for paganism. After he slays the dragon the village converts to christianity. In Catholicism his holiday was changed to an optional observance in the seventies but he's still considered a saint.

Ah, thank you Capeo. I have always had trouble trying to find out about this one. So, apparently they legend has changed over time?

Yes, originally he was a soldier in the Roman army (brave, noble, the whole bit) but when ordered to persecute Christians by his emperor he refused and declared himself a christian. For this he was tortured and beheaded and thus martyred. There's no historical evidence for his existence though. He, along with most of the early saints, is first mentioned in the 1200s when fanciful stories of saints were all the rage.

I didn't mention the Roman soldier part becasue it was such common knowledge, and not pertinent to the discussion, but you are wrong, he IS first mentioned as a Saint as early as the fifth century AD, only around a century after his death, but like I said, the dragon part was not added until the 13th century. The Diocletion I was referring to was the Roman Emperor. This is why he was known to the Moslems as well, because we was already well known during the crusades, but known but not as a dragon slayer until the 1200's, which also makes the Greek Orthodox church look foolish for simply imitating a relatively "modern" Catholic fairytale.

And no, the Catholic Church is not going to say outright that a Saint is fake, but by removing him from the official calendar is virtually the same thing, but they can hardly begin renaming chruches and such. There was a good deal of plublicity about this at the time. And the Greek Orthodox and Catholic churches don't agree on many things.

It is also interesting to point out that the older the statue or depiction, the smaller the dragon is in the Saint George depictions, often not much more impressive that an iguana with wings. But this is becasue People in the Middle Ages were more realisitic than modern people in realizing the real capabilities of people. So to them, even a tiny dragon was quite dangerous, becasue these people actually knew how dangerous the animals they hunted were, like wolves and bears. The dragon doesn't get really big until more modern times, and people grew stupider and stupider regarding what a human could really do.

You are referring to art of the 15th century, a time when the armor relected the clothing style of the day, which fit the body very closely and made the person look quite thin, and becasue this was the "ideal" it was exaggerated even more in depictions of the Saint.

Now by the 16th century, clothing was made more bulky, with "puffy" shirts and coats, and to reflect the style of clothing, armor also began to be made this way, now making the same thin knights actually look fat!

This is a pic of me, wearing the close fitting type armor of the 15th century, but not so artificially exaggerated as depictions of St. George.

That's correct. I didn't think the church acknowledged him that early but indeed they did.

Yes, I thought you may find the references silly considering your overwhelming knowldge of the subject, it was just to get across in the broadest possible sense that seeing the dragon unite two faiths that oppose made it seem like the Dragon was the bringer of peace, as there would be no Saint George in the tale if not for the Dragon. So to speak.

In any case, thank you muchly for the excellent information. After the Foreign Correspondant overview the other night I became quite interested. Thanks again for filling in the gaps

oooh.. DC!!! Hope you haven't gotten too far to finishing your book and saying that North Europe doesn't have dragons.. coz that's wrong! We DO! well.. we DID and occationally we still do.. well.. darn.. shamanic stuff isn't the easiest to explain.

I'll cut to the point. I hope. The very northern culture with raindeers, bear tribes and simple ppl even before vikings visited the lands never wrote or draw anything down. Information was passed by poem singing mostly. And in the languages that from finnish (I'm from finland) evolved too, it was RUDE to point out some one's race. Even bears and elks and all that was considered intelligent and/or sacred were always called by their names. Never does anyone even today in finnish or saame language speak of beings by their existing form unless they wish to be offensive or just real a-holes for the fun of it.

This gets us to the interesting fact that in ancient finnish myths there is a sleeping giant that once was a protector of the lands and shared great wisdom with the ppl who were seeking it. Since those days the story has had many forms but that one part keeps the same. Never is the race of the giant (giants weren't in human form in our history and no.. vikings came only later on. giants fysical size didn't actually matter. everything was viewed from spiritual point of view) revealed in any stories naturally.. I woudn't want to piss off a dragon. But our word "unikeko" is told to be originated from this giant's name and it means "One Who Sleeps Alot".

The most oldest version of the song (story) I was able to stick my nose into ends in the way that one day the giant grew old and slept for a loong loong time untill he formed a hill of flowers. Shamans came to him occationally to still consult him in the dream state, but finally their loved giant had to move on (died). Shamans honored one day of the summer to him and due time the story why we still have that day marked in our calendar has changed every 50 years ever since the "modern" age began. Last attemp was that it had something to do with a christian thing.. yeah right. We have several holidays older than we can count back in history and all of them were attempted to be turned into christian hero stories. No one really buys that Our songs are strong and old as time and christianity fairly new if you compare to the rest of the europe.

Naturally there also is Kalevala that has some indications to dragonic stuff, but that should be found in english too I think.. if not, just PM me and I'll do my best in translating the verses I find interesting, to you.

Whoa! Nice one there! You looks like a dragon slayer itself. Just add a sword and a shield, viola, it's dragon hunting season again!

Anyway, the Moslem "dragon" that escorted Prophet Muhammad Salallahu Alaihi Salaam during the supposedly his single night travel from Mecca to Madina on the event of Isra' Mi'raj was called "Bouraq". A divinie creature that resembled a horse with a face of a human with 8 wings and blazing (literally) hooves. As for the "serpents" ityou were talking about, I dunno, since I was small, I've never heard about that "serpents" accompanying Prophet Muhammad Salallahu Alaihi Salaam.

Here's a wikipedia article of the event:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra_and_Mi%27raj

Now, here's the creature, the Bouraq:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq

Which somehow, the name of the creature inspires an airline company here in Indonesia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouraq

"the dragon" is an anagram of "hot danger" !

FURRY AHOY ! lol

Well.. no offence to human males but compared to dragon males it's like 10 points vs 100 I _LOVE_ dragons X)

Since we're revealing stuff now

nice find lol! i wonder if there's anything to it

Though this is considered the classic dragon slaying outfit, I would never be so stupid to believe a person with those weapons could possibly kill one. I have armor of all periods but this is actually on of my favorite styles, not just for armor, but for furniture, art etc. In fact I am building my own castle now. Here is a pic of my matching horse armor. In fact there is a forged dragon that protects the horses back, and its arms and legs "hold" the horses flank armor. Despite the legends of evil dragons during this time, people obviously liked them as well for they decorate almost everything from those times, furniture, Jewelry, architecture, and many religious items as well, because it was widely held that God controllled "good dragons" that dwelled in heaven, and on judgement day would devour all of the wicked people.

If you read my post, you will see that I was not confusing the Bouraq with a dragon. I said that in one of the famous paintings, there is the Bouraq and a dragon.

I have regrettably lost the reference to the giant serpent/dragon judge of Isalamic theology. If you ever run across it, please let me know.

Thanks, RiverWisdom,
I would be very interested in any more info aobut this giant/creature , particularly if anything could be found that might connect it to being a dragon. Actually the idea of it educating ancient man sounds a lot like the dragons of many other regions, like China, Mesopotamia, and the Americas. If we could establish this "giant" was a dragon, it would be important to show that these "watcher's" ranged in these Northern climes as well. But as you know, the Viking and Germanic mythology that has been preserved generally portrays dragons in a bad light. But I agree, these were not the original people of those regions.

But I think with the "100 points" there also comes a price. For many legends around the world indicate that dragons eventually eat their human female admirers. But considering the persistence of these "maidens sacrificed to dragons" legends, perhaps the women thought it was still "worth it"!

Oh, I wouldn't assume that that was always the case. I am sure many a dragon would be shocked at ruining a perfectly good maiden

surely some of the maiden-munching stories were slander. Consider, the woman could return to a culture that caster her our as a sacrifice, where she would be shunned (or worse) as cursed, OR live in luxury and ease amidst great wealth with someone able to protect her from any harm. And, of course, she was never seen or heard from again...

PS: Fatfox, you never know. I read a legend about a female dragon that only accepted young men as offerings. So, even though females appear to be rarer, you might get your chance. Of course, DC's warnings regarding romance with multi-ton reptilian super-predators still stands...

Yes, no, I know what you mean. I know you're not confusing the Bouraq with the dragon. It's just I've never seen or heard the depictions of the event where a dragon is present. Only Prophet Muhammad Salallahi Alaihi Salaam, the Bouraq and the Angels. Okay, I'll search the net for the pic you've seen. If I happens to stumble across one, I'l post it here for sure.

Dragons Exsist this i can not back up however i am dead shure of it....

for i was told by the Father of Dragons that i'd bring them back now i was a child and didnt fully understand it does any1 think they can help me?

Well, Seeker, I am not sure what you are talking about. I am not familiar with a "father of dragons". Please elaborate.

As to the existence of dragons, there is no proof, but many do claim to have a spiritual connection of some sort.

Creepiest. Post. Ever.

Very poetic but utter rubbish.

I don't suppose anyone has any physical evidence of a dragon actually existing?

Not only is it creepy its quite offensive

well i'd love to believe the dragons were alive today however they are not which is such a pity

however dragons did exsit at one point in time and i hope by combining knowlage of the 3 major sciences (Chemestry, Physics, and Biology) and if i can find bones of a dragon to bring them back to life...

and i really hope i get to because theres just a few people i'd love to let them lose on.... of course i no of no1 on this site that needs this kind of a death, just the people in real life who make my life a living hell

please let me know if you have any of the skills i have chemestry coverd but the more help the better... and do you really think this is a bit weird and all?

Offensive? I have it on good authority that being eaten alive by a large dragon is a popular fantasy of women.

Perhaps this is what started the whole "virgin sacrifice thing". There would be no logical reason why a virgin would taste any different than any other woman.

Wrong on all counts, but who's keeping score?

Oh, if ever I wanted links for this claim of yours DC.

Google the word "vorephilia"and all that I have said will be confirmed. But in truth, I have to admit that giant snakes rank higher than dragons as the top animal women fantasize being swallowed alive by.

vorephilia is a fetish for people who are aroused at the thougt of being eaten. It has nothing to do with dragons/serpents/snakes. Think more Hanibal Lector.

Well Seeker, while it wouldn't bring back any dragons of the past, a thorough understanding of genetics and lots of funding might produce a passable dragon replica. While it wouldn't be an actual dragon, many of the characteristics commonly attributed (size, strength, tough hide, flight, intelligence, and even breath weapons) are theoretically possible.

As for revenge, I would suggest simply getting yourself out of whatever situation that seems to be tormenting you. The costs of such actions are likely to outweigh any possible gains; so focus on your own personal success.

Good luck on your dragon search. If you should stumble across a live specimen, I recommend you be on your best behavior: be unfailingly polite, and don't attempt to issue the dragon any orders (such as "dragon: slay my enemies").

oh i am am i? then tell me what do you think i need?




hmm.... personal succsess over hell upon my foe... what to chose... well i guess that would vary with the dragon i find or revive hopefully i can bring back a sliver or gold dragon and of course i'd be polite to those of good and simply see if its possible to let those who trouble me so to PISS OFF!!


and thanks for the advice but i have a way around the Dragonic... however you are right i should be polite and i'd best hope to the dragonic deities its not a red dragons cause if it is im so screwed... they never did like people

Oh, let's see. You assure us dragons existed, even though not one fossil has been discovered.

Then you hope to find "bones" of a dragon (fossils are replicas, made through mineral action, and composed of rock, not bone) so that you can "bring them back to life."

Gosh, what would lead me to consider you wrong on all counts? Sorry, but you've simply no chance of completing your desire.

well thats what my friend said as well except he said i was "playing god" but i will aim to accomplish this goal for simply because i need to... but i like the other solution as well its easyer and requires less effort, search for a live speciman and be polite i think i may just try that

you know no more about this, than anything else you spout here. These women are not aroused by being murdered and canibalized, but by being swallowed alive by a giant animal like a snake, dinosaur or dragon. You need only read their stories on the internet to confirm this.

Really? You have chemestry covered?...ironic.

ironic how?

I will let you figure it out...

cant u just humor me? please? but anyways i think i give up that old plan and go with this new 1

find a dragon, hope to the deities it aint evil and ask it for help to get the ppl who really make life missable to leave me alone what do u all think? (then i'll go for the world domination thing ... lols jk)

And extremely lacking in good taste.

RTFLMFAO

dont you mean ROFLLMFAO?? (and yes its just that sad that i have point that out...)

Okay. I will tell why it is ironic since you apparently haven't figured it out. On two occasions you said "chemestry" and then you said you had it covered. It is ironic because it is spelled 'chemistry' not "chemestry.." Hard to imagine you have a subject covered when you can't spell it. There is the irony.

Good Grief what kind of women do you hang out with

um yay i guess ur right there but i never was good at spelling so wtf i still have that portion covered anyways i think i'll just make that plan the back burner plan