Should Nessie be proven real, but is a dumb animal without the power of speech nor intelligent thought, will you please find some woodwork to disappear within?

Now I'm really confused. Please eleborate on just what constitutes 'that crap'?

Is it people trying to point you in the right direction (ie. read those old books so your mind will be able to come to grips with different wrtting styles through the ages)?
Is it because you're asociating some of the members here with all those people that you feel are metaphorically kicking sand in your face because they pick on you for being "that wierd kid who plays D&D, and believes in dragons?"
Is it just simply having to confront the truth that your knowledge base isn't broad enough to offer thrust and counter thrust as others deconstruct your arguments?
Is it that you're at that akward, angsty stage in life where you really are overwhelmed by life's hardships, and places like this and other fantasy realms are an escape from that harsh reality? And anything other than unconditional acceptance of you, is an assault by that reality on your sanctum?

I'm not trying to join the dogpile on you, but it is a bit of an extreme length to issue forth a statement to the effect of "I'm ignoring your advice, because I interpret it as an attack against all I am right now; and I don't take that crap here."

Whilst it is good to have a stance, it still hasn't stopped others from leading you into their own verbal traps (the net result being that any level headed argument you might have had, quickly gets turned into panic posting as the 'wolves' close in).
Chill, take a step back, and don't be afraid to learn...

I must disagree. It is not a dumb animal. Its Just an intelligent animal without the power of speech. Why you take power of speech to be intelligent I do not know. Intelligence is known to be the ability to adapt to the environment in which you live. Can humans do that? Yes of course. Can animals do that? Without a doubt. Power of speech does not equate to intelligence.

Without speech, how would dragons convey their guidance (ugh!) upon mankind? (Please note: This is the belief system DC spews upon countless threads here.)

Well isn't that a bit cherrypicking?
nessie sounds more like a surviving fossil than a mythical beastie.

Once again no evidence or supporting scientific observations. Even though you claim it is common knowledge and indisputable, you fail to find credible sources to support these claims, no surprise. Maybe you could at some point cough up the title of that specific documentary, I have seen footage of orcas hunting seal pups and I have seen them tear them apart. Also if you go had actually read any of the scientific sources I previously posted, you will find articles talking about parts of prey items (while a whole animal is never mentioned) as well as plenty of evidence that sharing, while being a social activity, is not an exception. In science, even 'no brainers' need to be proved and described, I just recently read a paper quoting another paper on the diet of bottlenose dolphins to back up the fact that oranges and cookies are not a regular part of a normal Tursiops diet (the paper was about the dangers of wild dolphins receiving handout from the public in case anyone was wondering why anyone would need to be back something like that up). The fact that you cannot come up with any scientific sources comes as no surprise but also speaks for itself...
The 'evidence' you provided for people being knocked off the ice by orcas are observations in one old paper that is based on an old fashioned perception of orcas being indiscriminate killers and can and has been explained otherwise. Furthermore once again I provided plenty of scientific evidence that while they could be a danger to humans in the wild, there has only been one documented attack and they have no interest in humans. Go ahead and try to portray it as if I think of them as sugar coated bunnies, I have given plenty of evidence that that is not the case, SeaWorlds portrayal of orcas is ludicrously inaccurate as I have stated many times, in fact they are more likely to attack a person in captivity, but while they are not fluffy human loving teddy bears but highly intelligent and efficient apex predators, they have not proved a danger in the wild, for the most part they are vastly indifferent to us though they might come and check out a boat or a diver in a moment of brief curiosity.
Attempt to ridicule and insult me and my qualifications all you like to try and distract from the fact that you cannot back your claims up properly, unfortunately, it does nothing to prove your point and honestly, I do not really care what your opinion of me is either as I really do not value it, so you are wasting your time either way.
Believe whatever you like, I have wasted enough time trying to have a reasonable discussion with you and providing evidence again and again in the face of 'I saw it on a documentary' and quite frankly I have better things to do than further derailing a thread trying to explain cetacean behaviour to someone who's sole interest is to be right.
Just a last piece of advise, if you should ever attempt to publish anything that you want science to acknowledge and take serious, 'I saw it on a documentary' and 'I am right because I said so and you are clearly stupid' is not going to hold up.

Sometimes "I saw it on a documentary" is all we may have, if the observation is so obvious that scientists don't even bother to record it. Case in point is the seal pup eating lone male orcas. No scientist has specifically stated the pups are swallowed whole because simple common sense dictates everyone knows this already. And what is better than seeing it with you own eyes on a film? Somehow I doubt these documentaries have been altered just to "fool people" into thinking a 25 foot carnivore would swallow a tiny prey animal in one piece. This is just plain silly.

The whole point of this was the fact that yes, "as highly intelligent and efficeient apex predators" as you say, if an orca were hungry enough, it might eat a person as surely they have eaten other unusual prey like a moose in one case. But being such efficient and intelligent predators, an orca might not attack a human unless the human was alone, and if alone, no one would ever know the incident occured.

You have no more evidence to say this has never happened than I do to suggest it probably has.

Yes, I agree. I am so sick of people always begging for sources, when most of the time it is so obvious that anyone who doesn't even know about the subject knows what it is. I see a lot of things on documentarys, yet if I tell someone that is the only source I have, it often weakens my arguement.

And, that particular fallacy is known as an appeal to ignorance.

this is agreeable. as a matter of fact, all of you non-believers what proof can you give they DON'T exsist (with in a logical dought) show me some proof of that and then maybe just maybe i will stop ( a highly unlikely chance of it happening)

did you follow the link mr Id Quod Est provided?

im not sure people are trying to make you stop....the world is not against you.

I would go further than saying that i doubt dragons exist, i would say that it is logical that they dont exist as real creatures as depicted in fantasy or described by DC and another writer who has already postulated the same argument dc has, even down to the extended rib gliding apparatus speculation. Im pretty sure that he got a similar response that DC has received.

I think Evangium's posts to you have been reasonably considerate, and he provides some good advice that others might benefit from.
If i want to go to the pub and experience a night of song, drink, and laughs, ive got to get off my but and walk....there is no real reward without doing the legwork.
If you cant be bothered to do the legwork then you should ask yourself...how much does this mean to me?

I dont like labels like 'believers' and 'non-believers' or 'skeptics'...they are not very helpful to discussion. each side harbours prejudices against the other, and wanting to belong to either group appears to me like adolescent sub-culture behaviour....wanting to be different, but belong to something.
why not strike out on your own.....im sure you have the strength to form your own opinion, you certainly have enough spirit.

As to your beliefs, you are welcome to them, and i will respect them as long as you respect those of others and dont try to bully folk into submission as a few others on these forums (and in real life) try to do.

If you have any genuine questions most folk here will give you a reasonable answer....Id also be happy to point you in the direction of material related to 'dragons' so that you can make your own mind up, you can PM me if you'd prefer.

I remember a few folk giving me a hard time as i was growing up, and revenge or 'getting one up on them' was an attractive thought at the time, later i realised it didnt matter to me anymore...and i came to pity them. /That/ in one way is the ultimate payback....and i feel none of the joy you look forward to knowing that my situation is better than theirs.

back to yr draig (the dragon) As far as im concerned they dont exist, as you probably have gathered by now, as real creatures. Proving something doesnt exist is in many cases next to impossible, as the link The One Who Is provided shows. But the case against them logically existing is too strong to ignore or brush off. As Evangium said, taking part in a discussion about them is fine, and you can learn a lot this way...but there is no substitute for a wider reading of the subject because it puts everything else into context...indicating how you should view the evidence. And its on this point that folk with crackpot theories fall short....they often skim the 'boring' bits and home in on what they think they are looking for and end up coming to the wrong conclusions.

a wize man once heard a voice telling him "Tele, lege" ("pick-up and read") so he did.

No, it would simply mean Nessie wasn't a dragon, and the St. Columba account was wrong. But there is still a whole world of dragon legends.

No, I think they call it 'common sense'.

The times they are a changing.

Can you give me a source for this information?

Possibly through telepathy, to a specific high priest, such as Moses and the Yaw dragon. Like it or not, what I 'spew' is factual. Ancient man all over the world had 'dragon gods'.

A dumb 'surviving fossil' that has made fools of every scientific expedition that has gone out to find 'her'?

No, a sentient dragon able to elude modern humans seems to fit the description better than a walnut brained aquatic lizard. And we have 4,000 years of human accounts of these creatures to back this up.

Pardon my interjection, Grem, but is the Red Dragon of Wales from King Aurthur Pendragon, the Roman Drakon standard, or some other origin?

::lightningbolt:: DC won't be contributing, any longer. He's suffered an unfortunate electrical accident.

Just kidding. But for a poster constantly pimping a pet theory about prehistoric, intelligent dragons clandestinely controlling destiny upon earth, influencing mankind for millennia, while remaining completely undetected, except for lake/ocean monsters, which are "obviously" dragons, for that poster daring to mention the words "common sense," is rather humorous.

Not at all. It is really the only plausible explantion if the creatures actually exist.

No, it's not, except in your head.

or maybe its not and he's right and its all in your head 667-Neighbor of the Beast

Well, it's in alot more than my head. There are ALOT more people in the world that believe that dragons are a MYTH than there are that actually believe they are real.
Come back when you have some real world experience kid.

you really have no clue whom your dealing with do you? im not really one to take insults but i'll let that slide for now... however the point is there are people who believe that they are real, like me for one, so please try to refrain from ruining our hopes and dreams thank you

An even more plausible explanation is that they don't exist! Duh. What is more likely? And answer honestly. Dragons are flying, spiritual, god-like, fire breathing reptiles with intelligence, and they bury their dead. OR they don't exist.

Childish prattle. 667 was being gentle with you.

Do I know who I am dealing with?? *snip* Was that supposed to be some kind of threat?? You'll let me slide?? Oh, thank you so much for sparing me from your wrath!! (can you feel the sarcasm??)
Hopes and dreams are all fine, as long as they are realistic. I'm trying to do you a favor by putting a little reality in your life. Sounds like someone needs to.

Early mankind, Communicates using telepathy. But mankind has lost that ability.

How do you know for sure that most people believe dragons do not exist? Do you know for real? It is possible that most people believe but do not say so much in real life for fear of being scorned at.

You see proof of dragons. I see proof of it's non-existence.
We have not found Nessie because she is not there. There's nothing in that lake.

And you still haven't been able to convince me DC, I've read your old articles both in the Crypto threads and in other forums..But to me it sems like cherrypicking nonetheless. You take ancient accounts about some sort of beasty and proclaim "Here there be dragons" which is as bad as religious nutjobs looking at the world while exclaiming "Look at all these marvellous things! Surely you cannot refuse the notion of a maker of these wonderful things!"

General warning- Please refrain from insulting other members on the board. Anymore of this will lead to the thread being closed and warnings handed out. Your co-operation is appreciated.

We have not found nessie because it is too clever for us. When we see a dark shape, we do not sail out to meet it. we wait until people finds boats with sonar to cross the lakes. And then it goes into the underwater caves to hide. Maybe that is why we have not found and mythilogical creatures. We are too reluctant to go and meet it until we are fully prepared and then its too late. They have run away. And then we come back saying there is nothing there. Is there really nothing there or are we too slow?

Im currious about were you think dragons came from did they evolve here on earth,
or did they come here secretly and fell in love with this quaint little berg of ours

Funny you should mention 'pocket dragons'
The Australian Bearded Dragon Link


Thanks Grem I please to aim
Seriously though, the adage is true, you cant put old heads on young shoulders
And to think, when I was that age, I took old books and libraries for granted. Of course, back then the internet (in the home enviroment) didn't exist, and a PC was an over glorified typewriter. Never, ever thought I'd end up sounding like my grandparents 16 years later

You never understood the basic premise of the theory that postulates that the dragons are unnaturally intelligent creatures modified from some archosaur, possibly an extratterestrial one, (though I think this is less likely), to be 'caretakers' of this world for the millions of years before mankind would develop. This was accomplished by a 'creator' that even many scientists believe must be behind our universe.

As relfected in world wide myth and religion, the dragons became tribal dieties supposedly bringing rain, and teaching mankind his technologies, and often associated with shepherds. The were not necessairly any more 'kind' then shepherds, however, for in some, but not all cultures, not only did they demand the best domestic animals, but even human offering. But this did not interfere with their overall mission of ensuring the survival of mankind in a dangerous world.

At some point (and we see ths in the legends}, the dragons seem to have been expelled from their roles as gods by the this creator, but not killed, and this is why they have been reported ever since, often being transformed from beneficeint 'shepherd gods' to wild, dangerous predators.

No there isn't. Many in the oriental world still acnowledge dragons as deities, and since Yahweh of the Bible is clearly a dragon, then by default, the billions of three major religions of the Bible believe in dragons by default. In fact, if they acknowledge the Bible is true, they have no choice but beleive in dragons because they are mentioned many times in the original texts, and the highest of heavenly creatures are 'fiery flying serpents' that would be tranlated to drakons, but described in texts as conventional winged and limbed dragons.

there is a book on how why and if dragons could have evolved into present day mammals

And there's also a book from 1979 or 1981, “The Flight of Dragons” by Peter Dickinson which is a essentially a critical thinking exercise into the how and why for the existence of a physical, fire breathing dragon (from the review, I'm guessing it was written more for the juvenielle audience, than for adult researchers) Link

And from 2004, Dragons' World: A Fantasy Made Real (shown on Animal Planet) Link
Quite possibly based around the theories in the book.

Of course I've seen neither of them, so any other reviews would be appreciated.

Many societies on earth, completely detached from one another, have depicted some sort of lizard we do not recognize as being one of the animals of earth at some point - so Dragons MUST be real? What a gigantic fallacy...

I'm lost. Primarily still on the "what is a dragon" subject.

Dragons, in every description there is, are just an exaggeration physically and spiritually of real documented animals. Admittedly, that doesn't rule our their existence completely, you could argue that a snake is like a massively exaggerated worm.

4 legged and winged dragons are, lets put it bluntly here, the most stupid suggestion of a "real" beast that anyone has ever suggested was or is real. Think about the physics of this, for god sakes. And more importantly the biological ignorance.

And then you all go and do that really irritating thing religious people do where you create a theory which is reached in a completely illogical way but blankets every argument. "They aren't from our world so how could we possibly understand." What trollop. The problem with a statement of such is, whilst it "makes sense", the method of reaching such an outrageous statement is invalid. "Well it can't be this, so it must be this... because this has no argument against it because of lack of human understanding in the matter."

It's the same thing as when people ask why if a God is so all loving he brings death and disease to the world and the people he created... And you get back such trollop about how because he is all knowing and all powerful we will never understand his intentions or what is best for us. Such irrelevant conclusions drawn because you believe on illogical grounds and feel a desperate need to "prove" the truth. You're not proving anything. You're not even making sense.

Because religion mentions "dragons" as magical and such, they have to be? Another r******ed assumption.

Maybe I'd understand more if I could take it seriously that people in this thread believe in the magic and spirituality used to argue the existence of dragons so much.

See, I thought, we were all clever enough to treat them as animals... But since we are treating them as spiritual creatures, I guess that makes anything and everything about them plausible and logical.

I am rather surprised you are having so much difficulty with the notion of of a four footed reptile with wing membranes. They are still living today and commonly seen in Southeast Asian jungles. Its scientific name is "Draco". Do you want to take a guess why? And many depcictions of dragons give them only hind legs and wings, and some look almost identical to some early pterosaurs with long tails, to even include an aerodynamic tail 'spade' that ancient and medival man sometimes included in their depictions.

Everyone doesn't subscribe to the all knowing, all loving, God idea. In fact, this theory about the dragon Yahweh and the rest, will make much more sense, and answer far more of the Bible's mysteries than probably any previous examination of the Bible and related scripture.

Many governments and scientific institutions take psychic abilities seriously, though in past centuries this would be called 'magic'. It is not so much of a stretch to imagine if there had been an intelligent type of reptile, it might have over the past 50 to 100 million years, have acquired psychic abilities that the uninformed might call 'magic'. Some scientists maintain that likewise, in the distant future mankind will acquire some remarkable psychic abilities.

Again, you are using fictional stories as "proof" of exixtance. Most of the world has stories of dragons that go far back in history, but most of them acknowledge that nowadays that these are nothing more than stories. Peoples beliefs have evolved along with intelligence and technology. Old world religious myths do not mean that people still believe in them. Almost all ancient tales and stories are no longer accepted as reality, except by a few individuals who try to keep a grasp on things that they wnat to be real, no matter how impossible the reality of the situation is. The rest of the world knows that they are impossibilites, on many levels. You keep arguing that because our ancestors believed, that they must be real. That is just simply false. Just because you want it to be a reality, does not make it so.

And again im going to say, what proof do you have that they are fictional, and the reason "most people" say they are nothing more then stories is just the ingnorance and sometimes stupidity of modern man

Wrong. You know nothing of this.

In China today people cannot insult dragons. It is against the law. Western programming and media that are disrespectful to dragons are forbidden. This is even stated in the Dragon article in Wikepedia where it accounts a dragonslayer tv commercial was immediately banned.i


Do you wonder why the true symbol of China, the dragon is not an Olympic mascot or similar mascot in China? Becaue it would be disrespectful.

You apparently have no idea of how many people believe the Bible is the sinspired word of God. Billions do, and it is filled with dragons.

I believe my book will make some sense out of it all.

I am rather surprised (well, actually, no I'm not) that you think such "four footed reptiles with wing membranes" are relevant to the discussion. Those "wings" are not used for flight. And thus, such membranes would be useless to "dragons" which are nearly always described as being colossal creatures. You think you're being clever here, but you're failing miserably. I don't know if you envisage gigantic reptiles gliding between mountain tops and canyons hundreds of feet apart - or you just think magic allows them to fly with wings that would be useless of a creature of such size... A giant, predatory beast would need more than some extendable flaps of skin to even glide... Let alone fly.


Again with the "I have no explanation... Hm. I'll come up with something I think sounds logical, but really is the result of of a terrible failing logic that if it doesn't make sense by things in this world we know as truth, we have to assume that it is beyond our knowledge!" When really, you should just be assuming that until we do understand (if we ever understand) it doesn't exist.

Because, please tell me, what is the reasoning for demanding something is truth on the premise "we just don't understand"? Even if we don't, why the hell would you assume it?

Nope, sorry, wrong again. If you have ever been to China, which obviously you have not, the dragon is not as much of an icon as you make it out to be. I have been all over Asia, many times, and have never met anyone who believes dragons are real. They are a metaphorical symbol, and nothing more. They respect what the dragons represent, but they do not worship, or believe in, dragons. In the past, yes, and few superstitious old timers probably still beleive. But, to say that they believe in mythological creatures is an insult to the intelligence of their entire culture.
They are a fictional tale, and everyone is aware of this, except you.

What proof do I have?? Common sense. That is all that is needed. And tell me, which makes more sense? That the billions of people on this planet who know that dragons do not exist are right, or that one overzealous kid with a wild imagination, and a belief in fairy tales is the only one who knows some deep dark secret, and is going to educate the rest of the planet?? Please, do some research to try to back up your beliefs before making claims that they are real. People have been researching dragons for centuries, and guess what, STILL NO DRAGONS!!!
Like I said before, just because you and DC want this to be real, does not make it so. Some day, when you are older, you are going to look back at this belief with embarrassment.

Exactly, I agreee completely. For someone to make a claim, they need to research it first, and provide proof of the claim as they present it to the world. Not make the claim to the world, and try to back peddle and make up possible reasons to back it up as they go along.

If my post came off as insulting I apologize, it was not my intention.

So, because we can't proove they don't exist, that's proof that they do?

You have such impressive knowledge. But your facts are useless when you make a falacy in every post!

It's not logical. Any of it.

yes well if you give me PROOF that dragons DON"T exsist then i'll admit i was wrong (maybe)

You can't assert that a proposition is true, only because it hasn't been proven false.

And whilst you cannot assert that because it has not been proven true, it must be false, that's not what I'm doing.

My argument is that you have no reason to assume their existence.