Kim i've added your dragon post to this thread to keep them together, don't think we need another dragon topic.
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Kim i've added your dragon post to this thread to keep them together, don't think we need another dragon topic.
Kim i've added your dragon post to this thread to keep them together, don't think we need another dragon topic.
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 13 2008, 05:53 PM) 
Not really. Even some of the earliest humans buried their dead like Neanderthals. It's not a new concept by any stretch of the imagination for humankind. Once you have some sort of recognition of death, you start to respect it and therefore bury the dead to show them respect as a sort of tradition. All you really need is recognition of death, not intelligence. Elephants "recognize" death for instance. They mourn over their dead and even revisit sites where other elephants go to die. Sort of like having an elephant graveyard. This could be an example of what early humans could have done with their dead, I suppose, until they figured out they could bury them. Maybe elephants will be the next species of animal to figure out how to bury their dead?
That's true, but don't you need some kind of intelligence to recognize death? I don't know that's probably just speculation on my part.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 13 2008, 09:35 PM)
There are virtually no diseases transmitted from people to reptiles. And dragons are probably immune from disease, being bio-engineered 'machines', so to speak.
I guess a dragon might accidentally 'choke' on a human if it swallow wrong.. That would probably be the only way a human ever killed a dragon, and this is highly unlikely given the remarkable swallowing ability of reptiles.
I guess a dragon might accidentally 'choke' on a human if it swallow wrong.. That would probably be the only way a human ever killed a dragon, and this is highly unlikely given the remarkable swallowing ability of reptiles.
Dragons can't be immune to disease nothing is immune to disease or viruses.
QUOTE (kim23 @ Apr 14 2008, 09:37 AM)
yeah... if dragons really did exist since prehistoric times.... perhaps the medieval age of man could be their darkest time... since medeival times their were reports of local farmers losing their livestock to dragons attacking in daylight and picking up those meals(like cows,sheeps etc.)these beasts were really playing a dangerous games,, rmember at that time was also the age of chivalry were knights exists and considered honor their top priority.. farmers hired knights to climb mountains to slay this dangerous flying beast told to them by the locals,, possibly thousands of battle-hardened knights venture off to highest and deepest parts of mountains or forests for a price...and so is the start of romances blah bla blah...imagine ,Knights vs dragon could be a match.. it hink it was really a hard time for these dragons during this age where they were hunted by human champions... sword vs fire
It is ridiculous to think any man with iron age weapons would be a threat to dragons. You are right though, there are many accounts of dragons raiding farms, but no proof any man ever killed one. We know, for example that stories like St. George were simply invented in the late Middle Ages, with no references associated George with a dragon before that. If even a single dragon were killed in Europe in Medieval times, its remains would have been treasured artifacts preserved in a cathedral, just as were fossils and fake dragon reamains.
Knights may have fantasized slaying dragons, and may have even claimed to have fought, and driven off a dragon, if it knew one left an area. Such a story might over the years evolve into a dragon slaying story. But at the time, no one would believe a knight slayed a dragon without its remains as proof, and these remains would have been extremely valuable and preserved to this day.
So yes, the hundreds of sightings and reports of cattle stealing, etc do seem to have a basis in reality, but every dragon slaying story was obviously made up. Common sense should dictate that humans without modern technology could never kill a dragon. Even today, we are unable to corner one for a good photo.
QUOTE (667-Neighbor of the Beast @ Apr 14 2008, 06:55 AM)
Everyone on here has discredited you at every turn. You just simply cannot admit to it. You seem to be the one that cannot bring any credit to the thread, just speculation.
you and your ilk may call me names, in your immaturity, but you know far too little about this to 'discredit' me.
QUOTE (The Invaluable Darkness @ Apr 14 2008, 03:49 PM)
That's true, but don't you need some kind of intelligence to recognize death? I don't know that's probably just speculation on my part.
Dragons can't be immune to disease nothing is immune to disease or viruses.
Dragons can't be immune to disease nothing is immune to disease or viruses.
The whole premise of intelligent dragons, is that they were artificially modified creatures to serve as caretakers of out planet. To insure their survival, "the intelligence behind thei universe" may very well have been able to make then not age, or be suseptible to disease.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 14 2008, 05:35 PM)
you and your ilk may call me names, in your immaturity, but you know far too little about this to 'discredit' me.
You have no logic in your thinking so you discredit yourself. We do nothing but point it out.
Our ilk like to be rational.
QUOTE (HAJiME @ Apr 14 2008, 09:22 AM)
Just looking at oriental dragons, it's so blindingly obvious that they are physical exaggerations of carp and snakes. Eugh.
Anyway...
Been looking around myself for evidence of people directly believing in dragons, especially in modern times. I can't find anything to suggest that they do.
Anyway...
Been looking around myself for evidence of people directly believing in dragons, especially in modern times. I can't find anything to suggest that they do.
If you studied oriental dragons with more care, you wouldfind that some are remarkably like western dragons, and not fantastic composites of fish, deer, snakes, camels, etc.
Below is an over 2000 year old chinese rendition of a dragon, made at a time when the records claimed dragons associated with mankind.
Later, when dragons were no longer seen up close, the depictions became more and more fantastic.
To try and get away from the back and forth bickering, what would you guys do if dragons are real (as in actual, can't deny proof was found)?
If anything DC; I do admire your tenacious grip on this theory.
But, you just seem to be reading to much into it, possibly steadfast on believing in some particular
areas of this subject that you think means one thing but, actually means something else all together.
Okay now you can reply and tell me that I don't know what I am talking about as if I havn't seen
your over-zealous condescending attitude before. You know! You are not the only one who has
knowledge on this subject.
You have to understand DC, that you point out certain things on this subject where you understand it
to mean one thing, and others go and read about it and understand it to mean something different.
But, then you come back and totally discredit these intelligent people as if they have no clue what
they are talking about when it does not fit in with your theory.
But, you just seem to be reading to much into it, possibly steadfast on believing in some particular
areas of this subject that you think means one thing but, actually means something else all together.
Okay now you can reply and tell me that I don't know what I am talking about as if I havn't seen
your over-zealous condescending attitude before. You know! You are not the only one who has
knowledge on this subject.
You have to understand DC, that you point out certain things on this subject where you understand it
to mean one thing, and others go and read about it and understand it to mean something different.
But, then you come back and totally discredit these intelligent people as if they have no clue what
they are talking about when it does not fit in with your theory.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 14 2008, 05:41 PM)
If you studied oriental dragons with more care, you wouldfind that some are remarkably like western dragons, and not fantastic composites of fish, deer, snakes, camels, etc.
Below is an over 2000 year old chinese rendition of a dragon, made at a time when the records claimed dragons associated with mankind.
Later, when dragons were no longer seen up close, the depictions became more and more fantastic.
Below is an over 2000 year old chinese rendition of a dragon, made at a time when the records claimed dragons associated with mankind.
Later, when dragons were no longer seen up close, the depictions became more and more fantastic.
How do we or you know that is 2,000 years old? Could very well be, but you have to post a reference article or something showing that it is that old. We cannot just take everyone at their word. Just interested in seeing how it's age was determined, etc. Thanks in advance.
And what records do you speak of? A rather vague statement you made.
QUOTE
To try and get away from the back and forth bickering, what would you guys do if dragons are real (as in actual, can't deny proof was found)?
Id dig.
whole communities hiding in subterranean settlements...Perhaps (using your logic DC) explaining the mysterious examples in Cappadocia.
lol, my intellectual property! use that in your book and ill sue.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 14 2008, 06:41 PM)
If you studied oriental dragons with more care, you wouldfind that some are remarkably like western dragons, and not fantastic composites of fish, deer, snakes, camels, etc.
Below is an over 2000 year old chinese rendition of a dragon, made at a time when the records claimed dragons associated with mankind.
Later, when dragons were no longer seen up close, the depictions became more and more fantastic.
Below is an over 2000 year old chinese rendition of a dragon, made at a time when the records claimed dragons associated with mankind.
Later, when dragons were no longer seen up close, the depictions became more and more fantastic.
Some of them, not all of them looked like western dragons DC.
Upon saying that! The confusion of the obvious mixture one can find in oriental dragons, seems to
notate that they were not even sure what dragons looked like.
Regards,
Tom
QUOTE (bball @ Apr 14 2008, 05:55 PM)
How do we or you know that is 2,000 years old? Could very well be, but you have to post a reference article or something showing that it is that old. We cannot just take everyone at their word. Just interested in seeing how it's age was determined, etc. Thanks in advance.
And what records do you speak of? A rather vague statement you made.
And what records do you speak of? A rather vague statement you made.
Any credible oriental art historian will tell you this dragon was made in the time of the Han Dynasty. You can verify this yourself by looking for other Han, and older era dragons, and yes, many will appear quite realistic and "western" like this one.
And the Chinese literature also supports this. The "oldest" dragons had wings to fly. As real dragons were less commonly seen, they became more and more fantastic, and it was imagined the wingless, composite dragons could fly with magic.
QUOTE (Moro Bumbleroot @ Apr 14 2008, 06:00 PM)
Some of them, not all of them looked like western dragons DC.
Upon saying that! The confusion of the obvious mixture one can find in oriental dragons, seems to
notate that they were not even sure what dragons looked like.
Regards,
Tom
Upon saying that! The confusion of the obvious mixture one can find in oriental dragons, seems to
notate that they were not even sure what dragons looked like.
Regards,
Tom
No, the timeline seems to indicate that in the times people were in close contact with dragons, the dragons are depicted realistically. When the dragons withdrew from mankind, their depictions beome more and more fantastic, until now we think there is a clear difference between Eastern and Western dragons, when in fact, they are the same dragons..
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 14 2008, 06:08 PM)
Any credible oriental art historian will tell you this dragon was made in the time of the Han Dynasty.
Since I'm not a credible art historian, could you source the image anyway?
mesopotamian dragons, called such by Archaeologists etc. from the turn of the century, for want of a better word.
there are 2 creatures really relevent, one Ushumgal = Great Serpent...
and the 2nd is Mushushu = Furious Serpent, which is a composite creature which blended the totemic animals of Eridu and her later empire.
since the mushushu is a composite, i believe they knew it wasnt real....at least until the significance of the bodybits was forgotten.
Also, it was depicted as being about knee-high.
That leaves us with great mythical snakes.
although it has been convincingly (but not for me) argued that ushumgal refered to whales.
egyptian apophis, great chaotic sea serpent.
hydra, possibly based on a squid, or fanciful serpent.
perseus's enemy was the ketos....likely to have been based on whales, look up the latin name for the whale genus.
jason's dragon, a great serpent, no wings or limbs until hellenistic times.
likewise Cadmus' dragon, and all other greek ones.
The Chinese 'long' dragon is most likely based on snakes too, it is the oldest form of Chinese dragon.
the shang's dragon is said to have been based on crocs
the han's bixie is based on the mushushu from sumeria...cultural influence via luristan
the japanese dragons are based on the chinese long....cultural influence
as are all the 'long' asian dragons.
Indian dragons === big mythical snakes.
I dont know anything about the hawaiian one, but i can make a stab at it being a big snake...worth me checking it out.
The australian ones are interesting, bear closer examination...could be based on some big lizard, croc or snake. without a physical description its hard to tell.
although the mention of a watery lair indicates a croc.
European dragons...see greek.
there are 2 creatures really relevent, one Ushumgal = Great Serpent...
and the 2nd is Mushushu = Furious Serpent, which is a composite creature which blended the totemic animals of Eridu and her later empire.
since the mushushu is a composite, i believe they knew it wasnt real....at least until the significance of the bodybits was forgotten.
Also, it was depicted as being about knee-high.
That leaves us with great mythical snakes.
although it has been convincingly (but not for me) argued that ushumgal refered to whales.
egyptian apophis, great chaotic sea serpent.
hydra, possibly based on a squid, or fanciful serpent.
perseus's enemy was the ketos....likely to have been based on whales, look up the latin name for the whale genus.
jason's dragon, a great serpent, no wings or limbs until hellenistic times.
likewise Cadmus' dragon, and all other greek ones.
The Chinese 'long' dragon is most likely based on snakes too, it is the oldest form of Chinese dragon.
the shang's dragon is said to have been based on crocs
the han's bixie is based on the mushushu from sumeria...cultural influence via luristan
the japanese dragons are based on the chinese long....cultural influence
as are all the 'long' asian dragons.
Indian dragons === big mythical snakes.
I dont know anything about the hawaiian one, but i can make a stab at it being a big snake...worth me checking it out.
The australian ones are interesting, bear closer examination...could be based on some big lizard, croc or snake. without a physical description its hard to tell.
although the mention of a watery lair indicates a croc.
European dragons...see greek.
well actually ya, what would all of the critics and skeptists who dought us do? and this is if actual undenable proof was found of dragons, such as a living one for instance? what would all of you skeptics do if there was one found and it was undenably the real deal what then huh? just go "oh i was wrong, i'm sorry" personally i would not be able to except such an oppology
QUOTE (The One Who Is @ Apr 14 2008, 06:19 PM)
Since I'm not a credible art historian, could you source the image anyway?
This particular one is a reproduction of a genuine Han dragon and is in my collection. But if you type the words Han and dragon into the google illustration engine you will find many more nearly like it. It is far from unique, but most people simply imagine all Chines dragons look like the very late type you see decorating chinese restaraunts.
QUOTE (lil gremlin @ Apr 14 2008, 06:21 PM)
mesopotamian dragons, called such by Archaeologists etc. from the turn of the century, for want of a better word.
there are 2 creatures really relevent, one Ushumgal = Great Serpent...
and the 2nd is Mushushu = Furious Serpent, which is a composite creature which blended the totemic animals of Eridu and her later empire.
since the mushushu is a composite, i believe they knew it wasnt real....at least until the significance of the bodybits was forgotten.
Also, it was depicted as being about knee-high.
That leaves us with great mythical snakes.
although it has been convincingly (but not for me) argued that ushumgal refered to whales.
egyptian apophis, great chaotic sea serpent.
hydra, possibly based on a squid, or fanciful serpent.
perseus's enemy was the ketos....likely to have been based on whales, look up the latin name for the whale genus.
jason's dragon, a great serpent, no wings or limbs until hellenistic times.
likewise Cadmus' dragon, and all other greek ones.
The Chinese 'long' dragon is most likely based on snakes too, it is the oldest form of Chinese dragon.
the shang's dragon is said to have been based on crocs
the han's bixie is based on the mushushu from sumeria...cultural influence via luristan
the japanese dragons are based on the chinese long....cultural influence
as are all the 'long' asian dragons.
Indian dragons === big mythical snakes.
I dont know anything about the hawaiian one, but i can make a stab at it being a big snake...worth me checking it out.
The australian ones are interesting, bear closer examination...could be based on some big lizard, croc or snake. without a physical description its hard to tell.
although the mention of a watery lair indicates a croc.
European dragons...see greek.
there are 2 creatures really relevent, one Ushumgal = Great Serpent...
and the 2nd is Mushushu = Furious Serpent, which is a composite creature which blended the totemic animals of Eridu and her later empire.
since the mushushu is a composite, i believe they knew it wasnt real....at least until the significance of the bodybits was forgotten.
Also, it was depicted as being about knee-high.
That leaves us with great mythical snakes.
although it has been convincingly (but not for me) argued that ushumgal refered to whales.
egyptian apophis, great chaotic sea serpent.
hydra, possibly based on a squid, or fanciful serpent.
perseus's enemy was the ketos....likely to have been based on whales, look up the latin name for the whale genus.
jason's dragon, a great serpent, no wings or limbs until hellenistic times.
likewise Cadmus' dragon, and all other greek ones.
The Chinese 'long' dragon is most likely based on snakes too, it is the oldest form of Chinese dragon.
the shang's dragon is said to have been based on crocs
the han's bixie is based on the mushushu from sumeria...cultural influence via luristan
the japanese dragons are based on the chinese long....cultural influence
as are all the 'long' asian dragons.
Indian dragons === big mythical snakes.
I dont know anything about the hawaiian one, but i can make a stab at it being a big snake...worth me checking it out.
The australian ones are interesting, bear closer examination...could be based on some big lizard, croc or snake. without a physical description its hard to tell.
although the mention of a watery lair indicates a croc.
European dragons...see greek.
A very poor and deliberately distorted list Grem. For example BOTH the Greeks and Indians had very conventional looking dragons with wings and thick bodies that are usually described as 'sea dragons'.
And you also ignore the Chinese' own literature that states the winged dragons are the oldest.
And what a cheap shot. You connect the ketos with a whale, because modern scientists liked that word? The true Ketos of greco roman art looks NOTHING like a whale. They have a long dragon neck, reptilian scales, clawed feet and wings. Who are you trying to fool?
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 14 2008, 06:52 PM)
This particular one is a reproduction of a genuine Han dragon and is in my collection. But if you type the words Han and dragon into the google illustration engine you will find many more nearly like it.
Oh, that's where it came from. Any idea as to where the original is?
And, out of curiosity, why do you use a photo you've taken yourself as evidence as opposed to simply looking up a widely-available photo from a credible source and using that?
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 14 2008, 06:52 PM)
It is far from unique, but most people simply imagine all Chines dragons look like the very late type you see decorating chinese restaraunts.
Sad but true.
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 14 2008, 06:36 PM)
well actually ya, what would all of the critics and skeptists who dought us do? and this is if actual undenable proof was found of dragons, such as a living one for instance? what would all of you skeptics do if there was one found and it was undenably the real deal what then huh? just go "oh i was wrong, i'm sorry" personally i would not be able to except such an oppology
Wouldn't you already have sacrificed yourself in homage, thus rendering an apology pointless?
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 14 2008, 06:52 PM)
This particular one is a reproduction of a genuine Han dragon and is in my collection. But if you type the words Han and dragon into the google illustration engine you will find many more nearly like it. It is far from unique, but most people simply imagine all Chines dragons look like the very late type you see decorating chinese restaraunts.
QUOTE (DC)
made in the time of the Han Dynasty
QUOTE (DC)
over 2000 year old chinese rendition of a dragon
Unbelievable! So it isn't 2,000 years old. You are such a liar. Why don't you produce the original that it is reproduced from? On two occasions you claimed it was an old sculpture saying IMPLYING that it is genuinely old. This is just one example of you stretching the truth.
You are making the claims. You need to produce the evidence to support your claims. I, nor anyone else should have to search the web for you.
And one more thing I asked you to elaborate on this statement-
QUOTE (DC)
when the records claimed dragons associated with mankind.
What records are you referring too here? This is a very vague statement that can be misleading.
QUOTE (The One Who Is @ Apr 15 2008, 12:02 AM)
QUOTE ((Dragon Seeker @ Apr 14 2008 @ 06:36 PM))
well actually ya, what would all of the critics and skeptists who dought us do? and this is if actual undenable proof was found of dragons, such as a living one for instance? what would all of you skeptics do if there was one found and it was undenably the real deal what then huh? just go "oh i was wrong, i'm sorry" personally i would not be able to except such an oppology
Wouldn't you already have sacrificed yourself in homage, thus rendering an apology pointless?
You are correct there. also again i apollogize for any spelling error's i have made (because you know who would bring them up just to rub them in my face)
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 14 2008, 06:35 PM)
you and your ilk may call me names, in your immaturity, but you know far too little about this to 'discredit' me.
Um, I didn't call you a name, and I didn't see anyone else call you a name. Little defensive are we?
Besides, you have no room to say anything to anyone about name calling.
QUOTE (bball @ Apr 14 2008, 07:12 PM)
Unbelievable! So it isn't 2,000 years old. You are such a liar. Why don't you produce the original that it is reproduced from? On two occasions you claimed it was an old sculpture saying IMPLYING that it is genuinely old. This is just one example of you stretching the truth.
You are making the claims. You need to produce the evidence to support your claims. I, nor anyone else should have to search the web for you.
And one more thing I asked you to elaborate on this statement-
What records are you referring too here? This is a very vague statement that can be misleading.
You are making the claims. You need to produce the evidence to support your claims. I, nor anyone else should have to search the web for you.
And one more thing I asked you to elaborate on this statement-
What records are you referring too here? This is a very vague statement that can be misleading.
It is cast from an original, and we have posted a number of other Han dragons here in the past, nearly like it, so what the hell are you talking about?
Anybody familiar with this subject know it is a 'typical' Han dragon. MOST of them look like this.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 14 2008, 07:06 PM)
It is cast from an original, and we have posted a number of other Han dragons here in the past, nearly like it, so what the hell are you talking about?
Anybody familiar with this subject know it is a 'typical' Han dragon. MOST of them look like this.
Anybody familiar with this subject know it is a 'typical' Han dragon. MOST of them look like this.
Actually no, they don't.
http://hua.umf.maine.edu/China/astronomy/t...rchart9331w.jpg
http://www.cic.sfu.ca/cchf/Media/DragonHan.gif
http://www.asianart.com/exhibitions/shandong/large/28_46.jpg
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/Art/Bricks/Ab...n_DonghanTN.JPG
OBVIOUSLY these dragons don't look like what you've told us they're supposed to look like, DC, and this is just from a quick sweep that took me less than 5 minutes. Obviously you're the one who's picking and choosing which information to prove your point, even if it doesn't entirely support that point.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 14 2008, 09:06 PM)
It is cast from an original, and we have posted a number of other Han dragons here in the past, nearly like it, so what the hell are you talking about?
Anybody familiar with this subject know it is a 'typical' Han dragon. MOST of them look like this.
Anybody familiar with this subject know it is a 'typical' Han dragon. MOST of them look like this.
oo someone is getting a little irritated. Don't get mad at me for pointing out your attempt to lie. If it weren't a big deal you would just post some typical Han dragons. But you didn't. And I see LadyO tried to do your work, which conveniently doesn't exactly support what you have said.
And again I ask. You have avoided this question twice already.
QUOTE (DC)
when the records claimed dragons associated with mankind.
Just what records are you referring too here? Please show me this information. It shouldn't be too hard. I would think you would jump at any opportunity given to you to support yourself.
Hi all
Im afraid i just cant resist this thread anymore.
I own a dragon website (a relatively new one which i wont name because im not here to advertise it) and i came here to discuss one of UMs members with the admin. Having seen this thread im afraid i just have to get involved hoping said member will merely ignore me.
Now i will be honest, i havent read every page but i have read two thirds of them so if what i say has been stated i apolagise in advance.
i would also like to express my sincere awe at how many creative and intelligent minds there are here. The forum owner must be very proud at what he has created.
Now on to my opinion.
Many people say dragons must have existed due to the fact that almost all cultures have their own version of the dragon but i dont think we realise just how much people travelled. Even in Neolithic times, ancient man was rarely settled in one place for long. So i think the argument can be debated.
I also dont believe that dragons were a way of explaining dinosaur bones. Its possible, and plausible but i personally think dragons are a true and powerful testimony to mankinds imagination. To explain the unexplainable and to symbolise that which needed it.
There is evidence of the belief of dragons (though not dragons that look like the ones we know) going back further than 2000BC. (i will reveal the evidence to back my claim up if asked but i wont elongate my post unnessecarily.
So this what what i think happened. This is a theory only and i have little evidence other than the few facts but it does all add up.
You may or may not know that the Celts originated near Mesopotania. For reasons current historians are not entirely sure about (though there are obviously some very strong theories) the Celts begun a mass movement across europe and finally settled in the UK (as well as many of the places on the way, hence we have the Gauls etc)
Now the Egyptians had a Deity named Re aka Ra. One of Re's enemies was a dragon or large serpent named Aapep. The Babylonians and later, the Sumerians believed a dragon named Tiamat created the world (in a roundabout way) Im afraid i do not know which of the two dragons came first but i do believe these were two of the first dragons in the world. (that we know of) Now i think the Celts carried with them, stories of either dragon and thus the european dragon tales begun. Of course as different families of Celts settled down they created tribes. Like with Chinese whispers the tales begun to differ from neighbouring tribes until the Celts of ireland had completely different stories to the ones in Gaul (france)
I can also explain the African, Etheopian, Indian and Asian dragons but i think i have said enough for now.
Please bear in mind that this is my opinion only. The Celts certainly travelled across Europe (as far as i am aware) as did Tiamat and Aapep come to be in their relative countries but much of the rest is theory only.
So come pick holes in it
Dariune aka Lex
Edit: Ive just read the last few pages as well. I dont want to start a row but i believe the first know Chinese dragon myth was the half horse half dragon creature which came out of the lake and taught Fu Hsi the art of caligraphy. This was supposed to have occured between 2982bc - 2900bc. The first evidence of Chinese dragons that i am aware of was some burial pots that were found with snake like flying creatures adorned on it along with some pig snouted dragon like creatures on some ornaments. These date roughly back to 4000bc.
Im afraid i just cant resist this thread anymore.
I own a dragon website (a relatively new one which i wont name because im not here to advertise it) and i came here to discuss one of UMs members with the admin. Having seen this thread im afraid i just have to get involved hoping said member will merely ignore me.
Now i will be honest, i havent read every page but i have read two thirds of them so if what i say has been stated i apolagise in advance.
i would also like to express my sincere awe at how many creative and intelligent minds there are here. The forum owner must be very proud at what he has created.
Now on to my opinion.
Many people say dragons must have existed due to the fact that almost all cultures have their own version of the dragon but i dont think we realise just how much people travelled. Even in Neolithic times, ancient man was rarely settled in one place for long. So i think the argument can be debated.
I also dont believe that dragons were a way of explaining dinosaur bones. Its possible, and plausible but i personally think dragons are a true and powerful testimony to mankinds imagination. To explain the unexplainable and to symbolise that which needed it.
There is evidence of the belief of dragons (though not dragons that look like the ones we know) going back further than 2000BC. (i will reveal the evidence to back my claim up if asked but i wont elongate my post unnessecarily.
So this what what i think happened. This is a theory only and i have little evidence other than the few facts but it does all add up.
You may or may not know that the Celts originated near Mesopotania. For reasons current historians are not entirely sure about (though there are obviously some very strong theories) the Celts begun a mass movement across europe and finally settled in the UK (as well as many of the places on the way, hence we have the Gauls etc)
Now the Egyptians had a Deity named Re aka Ra. One of Re's enemies was a dragon or large serpent named Aapep. The Babylonians and later, the Sumerians believed a dragon named Tiamat created the world (in a roundabout way) Im afraid i do not know which of the two dragons came first but i do believe these were two of the first dragons in the world. (that we know of) Now i think the Celts carried with them, stories of either dragon and thus the european dragon tales begun. Of course as different families of Celts settled down they created tribes. Like with Chinese whispers the tales begun to differ from neighbouring tribes until the Celts of ireland had completely different stories to the ones in Gaul (france)
I can also explain the African, Etheopian, Indian and Asian dragons but i think i have said enough for now.
Please bear in mind that this is my opinion only. The Celts certainly travelled across Europe (as far as i am aware) as did Tiamat and Aapep come to be in their relative countries but much of the rest is theory only.
So come pick holes in it
Dariune aka Lex
Edit: Ive just read the last few pages as well. I dont want to start a row but i believe the first know Chinese dragon myth was the half horse half dragon creature which came out of the lake and taught Fu Hsi the art of caligraphy. This was supposed to have occured between 2982bc - 2900bc. The first evidence of Chinese dragons that i am aware of was some burial pots that were found with snake like flying creatures adorned on it along with some pig snouted dragon like creatures on some ornaments. These date roughly back to 4000bc.
Because DC is incapable of using copy and paste to show us where he gets his information (and to post multiple quotes in one message), I opened up Google and typed in "Han Dragon" and "Han Dynasty". I, like Lady Otterwynnd, found nothing that looked what I'd call similar to the one originally posted by DC.
I LOVE this little guy! How fabulous is he!
None of these bare any similarity to western dragons in my eyes. Most of them aren't even anything like the typical oriental. I accept and appreciate the snake like bodies and lizard like figures look more "realistic" of life reptiles, but this to me only suggests more over that "dragon" has no definition other than "unidentified reptile". I do not, even, think that DC's original dragon looks like a western. Wings... what other similarity is there? The wings aren't even similar.
bball, if you look, DC did say "2000 year old Chinese rendition of a dragon" not "this artifact is 2000 years old". Jumping on him for misunderstandings doesn't help prove what a fool he is.
I am sick of reading that if we'd studied this subject, we'd know about all the oodles of examples. WE DON'T, SO YOU HAVE TO PITY OUR IGNORANCE AND SHOW US.
Since I don't make a habit of reading Chinese literature, source?
Source? With a further source proving that the source is factual? ...Or at least valid?
Show us examples! Please! For GOD sake.
I LOVE this little guy! How fabulous is he!
None of these bare any similarity to western dragons in my eyes. Most of them aren't even anything like the typical oriental. I accept and appreciate the snake like bodies and lizard like figures look more "realistic" of life reptiles, but this to me only suggests more over that "dragon" has no definition other than "unidentified reptile". I do not, even, think that DC's original dragon looks like a western. Wings... what other similarity is there? The wings aren't even similar.
bball, if you look, DC did say "2000 year old Chinese rendition of a dragon" not "this artifact is 2000 years old". Jumping on him for misunderstandings doesn't help prove what a fool he is.
I am sick of reading that if we'd studied this subject, we'd know about all the oodles of examples. WE DON'T, SO YOU HAVE TO PITY OUR IGNORANCE AND SHOW US.
QUOTE
And you also ignore the Chinese' own literature that states the winged dragons are the oldest.
Since I don't make a habit of reading Chinese literature, source?
QUOTE
The true Ketos of greco roman art looks NOTHING like a whale. They have a long dragon neck, reptilian scales, clawed feet and wings. Who are you trying to fool?
Source? With a further source proving that the source is factual? ...Or at least valid?
QUOTE
Anybody familiar with this subject know it is a 'typical' Han dragon. MOST of them look like this.
Show us examples! Please! For GOD sake.
To save me crawling though the entire thread is anyone able to tell me why the Han dragons specifically are under discussion?
there are many influental dynasties which could have influenced the Chinese Dragon.
there are many influental dynasties which could have influenced the Chinese Dragon.
We were all battering DC for examples. He gave us one, finally.
Han dragons, apparently, look like Western dragons.
I have continually questioned what defines a dragon and pointed out that i see no resemblance between the oriental kind and the western kind. Apparently, we're all ignorant, and only know of the stereotypical and inaccurate representation of a dragon in China.
DC posted this image http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...st&id=43295 stating that it is some 2000 years old and looks nothing like the modern stereotypical Chinese dragon and more like a western dragon.
He also states that most Han Dynasty period dragons look like that one. So because we're all ignorant r******s, we took to google to find other Han dragons to see for ourselves.
Han dragons, apparently, look like Western dragons.
I have continually questioned what defines a dragon and pointed out that i see no resemblance between the oriental kind and the western kind. Apparently, we're all ignorant, and only know of the stereotypical and inaccurate representation of a dragon in China.
DC posted this image http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...st&id=43295 stating that it is some 2000 years old and looks nothing like the modern stereotypical Chinese dragon and more like a western dragon.
He also states that most Han Dynasty period dragons look like that one. So because we're all ignorant r******s, we took to google to find other Han dragons to see for ourselves.
Ok in reply to the original topic "Dragons: do they exist" but my reply is aimed at a ficticious person who beleive in dragons, my reply is in no way directed at any specific person..
Answer: No they don't... - Snip - Since the only "evidence" of dragons is ancient ledgends what the hell do you think?!? Cr*p you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that they are a ledgend.. a story to told around campfires... dragons.... arn't.... real.... get over it!
Absolutely love that sculpture as well! good find!!
Answer: No they don't... - Snip - Since the only "evidence" of dragons is ancient ledgends what the hell do you think?!? Cr*p you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that they are a ledgend.. a story to told around campfires... dragons.... arn't.... real.... get over it!
QUOTE (HAJiME @ Apr 15 2008, 08:16 PM)
I LOVE this little guy! How fabulous is he!
Absolutely love that sculpture as well! good find!!
QUOTE (HAJiME @ Apr 15 2008, 11:07 AM)
We were all battering DC for examples. He gave us one, finally.
Han dragons, apparently, look like Western dragons.
I have continually questioned what defines a dragon and pointed out that i see no resemblance between the oriental kind and the western kind. Apparently, we're all ignorant, and only know of the stereotypical and inaccurate representation of a dragon in China.
DC posted this image http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...st&id=43295 stating that it is some 2000 years old and looks nothing like the modern stereotypical Chinese dragon and more like a western dragon.
He also states that most Han Dynasty period dragons look like that one. So because we're all ignorant r******s, we took to google to find other Han dragons to see for ourselves.
Han dragons, apparently, look like Western dragons.
I have continually questioned what defines a dragon and pointed out that i see no resemblance between the oriental kind and the western kind. Apparently, we're all ignorant, and only know of the stereotypical and inaccurate representation of a dragon in China.
DC posted this image http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...st&id=43295 stating that it is some 2000 years old and looks nothing like the modern stereotypical Chinese dragon and more like a western dragon.
He also states that most Han Dynasty period dragons look like that one. So because we're all ignorant r******s, we took to google to find other Han dragons to see for ourselves.
I see.
Well i dont want to get in a row so i will try and be tactful.
The statue shown in that picture does indeed bear resemblace to the Occidental dragon. (a little bit) or rather it bears resemblance to what we automatically think of as the Occidental (western) dragon. But is there a Western Sterio Type? Most people think of Ddraig Goch (the Welsh dragon) and think of that. But there are also the Wyrms of English Folklore such as the Wantley dragon, the Lambton Wyrm and the Knucker of Lyminster. Then there is Jormangandr, grendel and the dragon from the tales of Lludd and Llefylys, none of which adhere to the normal western dragon sterio typical depiction.
My point is, the dragons of the west are incredibly varied. Therefore it would perhaps be common sense to assume the Oriental dragon is also as varied. Im sure there are many types of dragons which bear reseblance to each other. Infact i personally believe the dragon myths opriginated from a similar area (see my first post) but there are far far more oriental dragons which look like the celestial Longs and Lungs probably originating from Emporer Yaou and the Emporer five toed dragons.
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 14 2008, 09:12 PM)
Actually no, they don't.
http://hua.umf.maine.edu/China/astronomy/t...rchart9331w.jpg
http://www.cic.sfu.ca/cchf/Media/DragonHan.gif
http://www.asianart.com/exhibitions/shandong/large/28_46.jpg
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/Art/Bricks/Ab...n_DonghanTN.JPG
OBVIOUSLY these dragons don't look like what you've told us they're supposed to look like, DC, and this is just from a quick sweep that took me less than 5 minutes. Obviously you're the one who's picking and choosing which information to prove your point, even if it doesn't entirely support that point.
http://hua.umf.maine.edu/China/astronomy/t...rchart9331w.jpg
http://www.cic.sfu.ca/cchf/Media/DragonHan.gif
http://www.asianart.com/exhibitions/shandong/large/28_46.jpg
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/Art/Bricks/Ab...n_DonghanTN.JPG
OBVIOUSLY these dragons don't look like what you've told us they're supposed to look like, DC, and this is just from a quick sweep that took me less than 5 minutes. Obviously you're the one who's picking and choosing which information to prove your point, even if it doesn't entirely support that point.
Obviouly, you are blind, or just trying to be a jerk.
Look at the second dragon HAJIME has found. It is virtually identical to my example, and as you can see most of them do have the short body and wings associated with western dragons. So you see, I was right. Somehow I doubt you will apologize.........
You would have known this aready if you had simply read the earlier dragon posts as I had said.
Deleted as the post i aimed this at seems to have gone
Here's me trying to find proof that people ACTUALLY believe ind dragons being REAL animals.
A giant snake is not a dragon as far as I'm concerned, rendering the Sweedish sightings completely irrelevant!
I found one other image that only you say is "virtually identical" to yours. You claimed that nearly all Han dragons were like yours. We've seen more that are unlike yours than that are like yours. So no, you are not right. You are still very wrong.
Also, the information about the dragon... Because I know how to source, unlike some people around here.
QUOTE (from Wikipedia article on Lindworm)
The belief in the reality of a lindorm, a giant limbless serpent, persisted well into the 19th century in some parts. The Swedish folklorist Gunnar Olof Hyltén-Cavallius collected in the mid 19th century stories of legendary creatures in Sweden. He met several people in Småland, Sweden that said they had encountered giant snakes, sometimes equipped with a long mane. He gathered around 50 eyewitness reports, and in 1884 he set up a big reward for a captured specimen, dead or alive. Hyltén-Cavallius was ridiculed by Swedish scholars, and since nobody ever managed to claim the reward, it resulted in a cryptozoological defeat. Rumours about lindworms as actual animals in Småland rapidly died out (Sjögren, 1980).
A giant snake is not a dragon as far as I'm concerned, rendering the Sweedish sightings completely irrelevant!
QUOTE
Obviouly, you are blind, or just trying to be a jerk.
Look at the second dragon HAJIME has found. It is virtually identical to mind, and as you can see most of them do have the short body and wings associated with western dragons. So you see, I was right.
Look at the second dragon HAJIME has found. It is virtually identical to mind, and as you can see most of them do have the short body and wings associated with western dragons. So you see, I was right.
I found one other image that only you say is "virtually identical" to yours. You claimed that nearly all Han dragons were like yours. We've seen more that are unlike yours than that are like yours. So no, you are not right. You are still very wrong.
Also, the information about the dragon... Because I know how to source, unlike some people around here.
QUOTE (http://arthistory.about.com/od/from_exhibitions/ig/summer07/sumex07_07.htm)
Painted Pottery Tomb Guardian (Han Dynasty, 206 B.C.-220 A.D.). Earthenware. H. 42.6 cm, L. 41.6 cm.
Chinese tomb guardian statues were used during the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.-220 A.D.) to protect the soul of the deceased and the objects included in one's burial from evil. With large and angry eyes wide open and a horn protruding between them, this powerful winged sculpture displays its fierce demeanor by means of its bared teeth and flared nostrils. Noblemen were believed to be able to ride the creature to heaven. This work of art is part of Treasures from Shanghai: 5,000 Years of Chinese Art and Culture, a selection of 77 objects that trace the development of Chinese civilization and art from Neolithic times (ca. 3000 B.C.) to the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911 A.D.). The first exhibition to come to the United States from the famous Shanghai Museum in more than 20 years, it includes bronze vessels, handscrolls with painted calligraphy and splendid landscapes, jade and bamboo carvings, lacquer works, paintings, polychrome pottery, porcelains and sculptures. Also on view are oracle bones whose carvings represent the earliest form of Chinese writing. Court culture and ceremonies are explored through some 20 bronze vessels, cookware and musical instruments.
"Treasures from Shanghai: 5,000 Years of Chinese Art and Culture" is on view from February 18 through August 19, 2007 at the Bowers Museum of Cultural Art, 2002 North Main Street, Santa Ana, CA 92706 (Telephone: 714-567-3600; Website). The museum is Tuesday to Sunday from 10:00 AM to 4:00 PM. Admission is $17.00 for adults and $12.00 for seniors (age 62 or older) and students. Prices increase by $2.00 on the weekend. The exhibition travels next to the Houston Museum of Natural Science in Texas from September 14, 2007 through January 6, 2008.
This picture comes from one of the many special art exhibitions available to you during Summer 2007. To view the full list of shows, please see this page.
http://arthistory.about.com/od/from_exhibi.../sumex07_07.htm
Chinese tomb guardian statues were used during the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.-220 A.D.) to protect the soul of the deceased and the objects included in one's burial from evil. With large and angry eyes wide open and a horn protruding between them, this powerful winged sculpture displays its fierce demeanor by means of its bared teeth and flared nostrils. Noblemen were believed to be able to ride the creature to heaven. This work of art is part of Treasures from Shanghai: 5,000 Years of Chinese Art and Culture, a selection of 77 objects that trace the development of Chinese civilization and art from Neolithic times (ca. 3000 B.C.) to the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911 A.D.). The first exhibition to come to the United States from the famous Shanghai Museum in more than 20 years, it includes bronze vessels, handscrolls with painted calligraphy and splendid landscapes, jade and bamboo carvings, lacquer works, paintings, polychrome pottery, porcelains and sculptures. Also on view are oracle bones whose carvings represent the earliest form of Chinese writing. Court culture and ceremonies are explored through some 20 bronze vessels, cookware and musical instruments.
"Treasures from Shanghai: 5,000 Years of Chinese Art and Culture" is on view from February 18 through August 19, 2007 at the Bowers Museum of Cultural Art, 2002 North Main Street, Santa Ana, CA 92706 (Telephone: 714-567-3600; Website). The museum is Tuesday to Sunday from 10:00 AM to 4:00 PM. Admission is $17.00 for adults and $12.00 for seniors (age 62 or older) and students. Prices increase by $2.00 on the weekend. The exhibition travels next to the Houston Museum of Natural Science in Texas from September 14, 2007 through January 6, 2008.
This picture comes from one of the many special art exhibitions available to you during Summer 2007. To view the full list of shows, please see this page.
QUOTE (HAJiME @ Apr 15 2008, 06:07 AM)
We were all battering DC for examples. He gave us one, finally.
Han dragons, apparently, look like Western dragons.
I have continually questioned what defines a dragon and pointed out that i see no resemblance between the oriental kind and the western kind. Apparently, we're all ignorant, and only know of the stereotypical and inaccurate representation of a dragon in China.
DC posted this image http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...st&id=43295 stating that it is some 2000 years old and looks nothing like the modern stereotypical Chinese dragon and more like a western dragon.
He also states that most Han Dynasty period dragons look like that one. So because we're all ignorant r******s, we took to google to find other Han dragons to see for ourselves.
Han dragons, apparently, look like Western dragons.
I have continually questioned what defines a dragon and pointed out that i see no resemblance between the oriental kind and the western kind. Apparently, we're all ignorant, and only know of the stereotypical and inaccurate representation of a dragon in China.
DC posted this image http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...st&id=43295 stating that it is some 2000 years old and looks nothing like the modern stereotypical Chinese dragon and more like a western dragon.
He also states that most Han Dynasty period dragons look like that one. So because we're all ignorant r******s, we took to google to find other Han dragons to see for ourselves.
Correct, and many of these images were posted on the earlier dragon threads as I said they were, including your favorite. As I have said before, once something is posted here, including hundreds of my "sources" and "proofs", it is enough. I don't have time to cater to every newbie too lazy and inconsiderate to read what other have previously posted here.
If I say something is so, it will be so. I have never lied here.
QUOTE (HAJiME @ Apr 15 2008, 06:41 AM)
Here's me trying to find proof that people ACTUALLY believe ind dragons being REAL animals.
A giant snake is not a dragon as far as I'm concerned, rendering the Sweedish sightings completely irrelevant!
A giant snake is not a dragon as far as I'm concerned, rendering the Sweedish sightings completely irrelevant!
Many of the marine "sea serpent" sightings may be dragons, as only thier sinuous neck and humps from the tops of their bodies are seen above water. Most dragons are associated with dwelling in the water, even if they do fly as well, and are even called "Great Serpent-Dragons from Heaven" such as the highest ranked Sumerian ones. Enki for example, who it both the prototype of the Eden serpent and Yahweh himself, is a water dwelling deity.
QUOTE (Dariune99 @ Apr 15 2008, 11:37 AM)
Deleted as the post i aimed this at seems to have gone
Sorry my post wasnt aimed at you, it was aimed at someone else who seems to have removed their post
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 15 2008, 12:41 PM)
Correct, and many of these images were posted on the earlier dragon threads as I said they were, including your favorite. As I have said before, once something is posted here, including hundreds of my "sources" and "proofs", it is enough. I don't have time to cater to every newbie too lazy and inconsiderate to read what other have previously posted here.
If I say something is so, it will be so. I have never lied here.
If I say something is so, it will be so. I have never lied here.
No, DC.
You either source properly, or - Snip -.
No one is calling you a liar. Are you stupid? We need to see the examples for ourselves. You can't claim the things you do without re-posting such sources to directly demonstrate what you are saying.
You are wrong. Either accept that, or source to prove us otherwise.
When you say something is so, you say it in such a misinterpreted, close minded and strange way that we need to see directly what you are reffering to.
If you knew how to formulate an argument properly, if you'd studied it, you'd know how ridiculous you sound when you tell me that it's MY fault I don't know the ins and outs of Dragon history. I, quite frankly, have never bothered wasting my time. Maybe if you provided a proper argument, with proper examples and sources and sounded half as convincing as you enthusiastically think you do, I'd want to learn more about such things.
QUOTE (Dariune99 @ Apr 15 2008, 03:59 AM)
Hi all
Im afraid i just cant resist this thread anymore.
I own a dragon website (a relatively new one which i wont name because im not here to advertise it) and i came here to discuss one of UMs members with the admin. Having seen this thread im afraid i just have to get involved hoping said member will merely ignore me.
Now i will be honest, i havent read every page but i have read two thirds of them so if what i say has been stated i apolagise in advance.
i would also like to express my sincere awe at how many creative and intelligent minds there are here. The forum owner must be very proud at what he has created.
Now on to my opinion.
Many people say dragons must have existed due to the fact that almost all cultures have their own version of the dragon but i dont think we realise just how much people travelled. Even in Neolithic times, ancient man was rarely settled in one place for long. So i think the argument can be debated.
I also dont believe that dragons were a way of explaining dinosaur bones. Its possible, and plausible but i personally think dragons are a true and powerful testimony to mankinds imagination. To explain the unexplainable and to symbolise that which needed it.
There is evidence of the belief of dragons (though not dragons that look like the ones we know) going back further than 2000BC. (i will reveal the evidence to back my claim up if asked but i wont elongate my post unnessecarily.
So this what what i think happened. This is a theory only and i have little evidence other than the few facts but it does all add up.
You may or may not know that the Celts originated near Mesopotania. For reasons current historians are not entirely sure about (though there are obviously some very strong theories) the Celts begun a mass movement across europe and finally settled in the UK (as well as many of the places on the way, hence we have the Gauls etc)
Now the Egyptians had a Deity named Re aka Ra. One of Re's enemies was a dragon or large serpent named Aapep. The Babylonians and later, the Sumerians believed a dragon named Tiamat created the world (in a roundabout way) Im afraid i do not know which of the two dragons came first but i do believe these were two of the first dragons in the world. (that we know of) Now i think the Celts carried with them, stories of either dragon and thus the european dragon tales begun. Of course as different families of Celts settled down they created tribes. Like with Chinese whispers the tales begun to differ from neighbouring tribes until the Celts of ireland had completely different stories to the ones in Gaul (france)
I can also explain the African, Etheopian, Indian and Asian dragons but i think i have said enough for now.
Please bear in mind that this is my opinion only. The Celts certainly travelled across Europe (as far as i am aware) as did Tiamat and Aapep come to be in their relative countries but much of the rest is theory only.
So come pick holes in it
Dariune aka Lex
Edit: Ive just read the last few pages as well. I dont want to start a row but i believe the first know Chinese dragon myth was the half horse half dragon creature which came out of the lake and taught Fu Hsi the art of caligraphy. This was supposed to have occured between 2982bc - 2900bc. The first evidence of Chinese dragons that i am aware of was some burial pots that were found with snake like flying creatures adorned on it along with some pig snouted dragon like creatures on some ornaments. These date roughly back to 4000bc.
Im afraid i just cant resist this thread anymore.
I own a dragon website (a relatively new one which i wont name because im not here to advertise it) and i came here to discuss one of UMs members with the admin. Having seen this thread im afraid i just have to get involved hoping said member will merely ignore me.
Now i will be honest, i havent read every page but i have read two thirds of them so if what i say has been stated i apolagise in advance.
i would also like to express my sincere awe at how many creative and intelligent minds there are here. The forum owner must be very proud at what he has created.
Now on to my opinion.
Many people say dragons must have existed due to the fact that almost all cultures have their own version of the dragon but i dont think we realise just how much people travelled. Even in Neolithic times, ancient man was rarely settled in one place for long. So i think the argument can be debated.
I also dont believe that dragons were a way of explaining dinosaur bones. Its possible, and plausible but i personally think dragons are a true and powerful testimony to mankinds imagination. To explain the unexplainable and to symbolise that which needed it.
There is evidence of the belief of dragons (though not dragons that look like the ones we know) going back further than 2000BC. (i will reveal the evidence to back my claim up if asked but i wont elongate my post unnessecarily.
So this what what i think happened. This is a theory only and i have little evidence other than the few facts but it does all add up.
You may or may not know that the Celts originated near Mesopotania. For reasons current historians are not entirely sure about (though there are obviously some very strong theories) the Celts begun a mass movement across europe and finally settled in the UK (as well as many of the places on the way, hence we have the Gauls etc)
Now the Egyptians had a Deity named Re aka Ra. One of Re's enemies was a dragon or large serpent named Aapep. The Babylonians and later, the Sumerians believed a dragon named Tiamat created the world (in a roundabout way) Im afraid i do not know which of the two dragons came first but i do believe these were two of the first dragons in the world. (that we know of) Now i think the Celts carried with them, stories of either dragon and thus the european dragon tales begun. Of course as different families of Celts settled down they created tribes. Like with Chinese whispers the tales begun to differ from neighbouring tribes until the Celts of ireland had completely different stories to the ones in Gaul (france)
I can also explain the African, Etheopian, Indian and Asian dragons but i think i have said enough for now.
Please bear in mind that this is my opinion only. The Celts certainly travelled across Europe (as far as i am aware) as did Tiamat and Aapep come to be in their relative countries but much of the rest is theory only.
So come pick holes in it
Dariune aka Lex
Edit: Ive just read the last few pages as well. I dont want to start a row but i believe the first know Chinese dragon myth was the half horse half dragon creature which came out of the lake and taught Fu Hsi the art of caligraphy. This was supposed to have occured between 2982bc - 2900bc. The first evidence of Chinese dragons that i am aware of was some burial pots that were found with snake like flying creatures adorned on it along with some pig snouted dragon like creatures on some ornaments. These date roughly back to 4000bc.
Tiamat was never a true dragon, nor was Apep. They were both simply enormous serpents, Tiamat being depicted as a 7 headed serpent on sumerian cylinder seals. Ironically Marduk himself is considered a 'true' dragon of the Mushushu type who defeats the snake, Son of another dragon diety Enki. The ancient believed both of these deities could assume human form , and are often depicted in this more familiar form.
The is a commonly misidetified Babylonian frieze of supposedly Marduk subduing Tiamat in the form of a lion-like dragon, but this is incorrect. This monster is a male, with a clearly depicted penis, and may be the ZU. But it was never intnded to be the 7 headed sea serpent Tiamat.
Understand as well, that the Tiamat story is a rather crass, later imitation of the story of the dragon Enki defeating another chaos serpent called Apsu. The Marduk story was added so Marduk would seem more important than Enki. Some see this is a transition from the dragon gods like Enki, to the more human hero god, Marduk (who was still the son of the dragon god Enki), and could still transform into a dragon if necessary. Like other Suerian dragno gods, when depicted as a human, a dragon is at his side or behind him to show that he is also a dragon. Or at least this is the interpetation of the scholars who study this. For the record, while I believe the dragons theselves of these legends are based on living creatures, I do not believe they can change into humans or have human offstrping.
The true (winged and footed) dragons of Sumeria were generally benefient gods, though they could have a temper, much like the similarly benificient Chinese dragons of the same time period.
Welcome to UM, Lex, by the way. Though unfortunately, here, unlike your own "forum", you cannot simply ban anyone who doesn't agree with your "genius".
QUOTE (DC)
Many of the marine "sea serpent" sightings may be dragons, as only thier sinuous neck and humps from the tops of their bodies are seen above water. Most dragons are associated with dwelling in the water, even if they do fly as well, and are even called "Great Serpent-Dragons from Heaven" such as the highest ranked Sumerian ones. Enki for example, who it both the prototype of the Eden serpent and Yahweh himself, is a water dwelling deity.
QUOTE (DC)
Tiamat was never a true dragon, nor was Apep. They were both simply enormous serpents,
You, sir, are a hypocryte.
DEFINE ME A DRAGON.
Explain to me why, with proof, why Tiamat and Apep were not dragon's... and yet Champ, for example, is.
QUOTE (bball @ Apr 14 2008, 11:20 PM)
oo someone is getting a little irritated. Don't get mad at me for pointing out your attempt to lie. If it weren't a big deal you would just post some typical Han dragons. But you didn't. And I see LadyO tried to do your work, which conveniently doesn't exactly support what you have said.
And again I ask. You have avoided this question twice already.
Just what records are you referring too here? Please show me this information. It shouldn't be too hard. I would think you would jump at any opportunity given to you to support yourself.
And again I ask. You have avoided this question twice already.
Just what records are you referring too here? Please show me this information. It shouldn't be too hard. I would think you would jump at any opportunity given to you to support yourself.
i will wait for your apology for saying I was lying about the han dragons. You can now see I was right all along.
As for records, ancient chinese accounts are filled with anecdotes that confirm dragons inter-related with people. Any good website about chinese dragons relates these accounts. Like the western looking Chinese dragons, this is common information you will have no trouble finding so no need for me to dredge it up again and again.
QUOTE
ancient chinese accounts are filled with anecdotes that confirm dragons inter-related with people.
Source?QUOTE
Any good website about chinese dragons relates these accounts.
Example?QUOTE
Like the western looking Chinese dragons, this is common information you will have no trouble finding so no need for me to dredge it up again and again.
I cannot find anything. And if it was common information easy to find, why do you need to "dredge" it up?
Please, for god sake, post at least one of these "good" websites "filled" with accounts of dragons taken seriously as real creatures.
Or anyone, for that matter, lets make "chinese dragon" the most searched thing on Google today.
QUOTE (HAJiME @ Apr 15 2008, 07:11 AM)
You, sir, are a hypocryte.
DEFINE ME A DRAGON.
Explain to me why, with proof, why Tiamat and Apep were not dragon's... and yet Champ, for example, is.
DEFINE ME A DRAGON.
Explain to me why, with proof, why Tiamat and Apep were not dragon's... and yet Champ, for example, is.
The dragons that my book proports as real creatures, are long necked, winged, scale-covered creatures with powerful clawed feet and a long tail. They are not merely a legless snake. But understand that in ancient times the word 'serpent' could apply to any 'reptile'. Even in modern fatasy literatue, authors frenquenly use the term 'serpent' for a classic, winged and footed dragon.
even the term Drakon can mean a full fledged dragon ins some ancient literature, while merely an intelligent , though legless serpent.
It is implied that the Eden serpent had wings and feet that were taken away after the incident with eve.
Some people have actually claimed to see Champ out of the water, and described a thick body and even waling on legs.
I think perhaps Draconic it is better if you and i ignore each other so as not to upset the flow of the thread. Certainly discussing my suspending you from DT is not called for. It is irrelevant to anything here. i also dont recal ever claiming to be a "genius"
Im not sure where you get your sources but if i may i will try to elaborate.
According to the Enuma Elish which is told on a set of 7 tablets found in Ninevah in Iraq and dated to around the 2nd century BC. They tell of Apsu, the spirit of fresh water and Tiamat, the spirit of salt water and chaos. Tiamat was portrayed as a large dragon, with a serpentine body, horns and a long tail. The short of the tale tells of their offspring rising up against Apsu and killing him. In her rage at Apsu's death Tiamat declares war against her offspring and spawns eleven creatures to aid her. They were the viper, shark, scorpion man (Girtabili), storm demon, great lion, dragon, mad dog and four nameless ones. With Apsu gone she also enlisted the aid of the god Kingu to command her armies. It was the god Marduk or Merodach who finally killed Tiamat by trapping open her jaws with a net and shooting her heart with his bow and arrow. From her body came came the earth and milkyway and from her blood came the rivers.
Marduk was depicted in several ways but i have never seen him depicted as a dragon. Tiamat was supposed to symbolise all that is Chaos.
Of course religions change, as do dragons. When Christianity came to England the Celtic dragons were demonised. When Bhudda became popular in England the naga became benevolent.
Change is all part of the dragon mythology evolution.
Im not sure where you get your sources but if i may i will try to elaborate.
According to the Enuma Elish which is told on a set of 7 tablets found in Ninevah in Iraq and dated to around the 2nd century BC. They tell of Apsu, the spirit of fresh water and Tiamat, the spirit of salt water and chaos. Tiamat was portrayed as a large dragon, with a serpentine body, horns and a long tail. The short of the tale tells of their offspring rising up against Apsu and killing him. In her rage at Apsu's death Tiamat declares war against her offspring and spawns eleven creatures to aid her. They were the viper, shark, scorpion man (Girtabili), storm demon, great lion, dragon, mad dog and four nameless ones. With Apsu gone she also enlisted the aid of the god Kingu to command her armies. It was the god Marduk or Merodach who finally killed Tiamat by trapping open her jaws with a net and shooting her heart with his bow and arrow. From her body came came the earth and milkyway and from her blood came the rivers.
Marduk was depicted in several ways but i have never seen him depicted as a dragon. Tiamat was supposed to symbolise all that is Chaos.
Of course religions change, as do dragons. When Christianity came to England the Celtic dragons were demonised. When Bhudda became popular in England the naga became benevolent.
Change is all part of the dragon mythology evolution.
QUOTE (Dariune99 @ Apr 15 2008, 07:32 AM)
I think perhaps Draconic it is better if you and i ignore each other so as not to upset the flow of the thread. Certainly discussing my suspending you from DT is not called for. It is irrelevant to anything here. i also dont recal ever claiming to be a "genius"
Im not sure where you get your sources but if i may i will try to elaborate.
According to the Enuma Elish which is told on a set of 7 tablets found in Ninevah in Iraq and dated to around the 2nd century BC. They tell of Apsu, the spirit of fresh water and Tiamat, the spirit of salt water and chaos. Tiamat was portrayed as a large dragon, with a serpentine body, horns and a long tail. The short of the tale tells of their offspring rising up against Apsu and killing him. In her rage at Apsu's death Tiamat declares war against her offspring and spawns eleven creatures to aid her. They were the viper, shark, scorpion man (Girtabili), storm demon, great lion, dragon, mad dog and four nameless ones. With Apsu gone she also enlisted the aid of the god Kingu to command her armies. It was the god Marduk or Merodach who finally killed Tiamat by trapping open her jaws with a net and shooting her heart with his bow and arrow. From her body came came the earth and milkyway and from her blood came the rivers.
Marduk was depicted in several ways but i have never seen him depicted as a dragon. Tiamat was supposed to symbolise all that is Chaos.
Of course religions change, as do dragons. When Christianity came to England the Celtic dragons were demonised. When Bhudda became popular in England the naga became benevolent.
Change is all part of the dragon mythology evolution.
Im not sure where you get your sources but if i may i will try to elaborate.
According to the Enuma Elish which is told on a set of 7 tablets found in Ninevah in Iraq and dated to around the 2nd century BC. They tell of Apsu, the spirit of fresh water and Tiamat, the spirit of salt water and chaos. Tiamat was portrayed as a large dragon, with a serpentine body, horns and a long tail. The short of the tale tells of their offspring rising up against Apsu and killing him. In her rage at Apsu's death Tiamat declares war against her offspring and spawns eleven creatures to aid her. They were the viper, shark, scorpion man (Girtabili), storm demon, great lion, dragon, mad dog and four nameless ones. With Apsu gone she also enlisted the aid of the god Kingu to command her armies. It was the god Marduk or Merodach who finally killed Tiamat by trapping open her jaws with a net and shooting her heart with his bow and arrow. From her body came came the earth and milkyway and from her blood came the rivers.
Marduk was depicted in several ways but i have never seen him depicted as a dragon. Tiamat was supposed to symbolise all that is Chaos.
Of course religions change, as do dragons. When Christianity came to England the Celtic dragons were demonised. When Bhudda became popular in England the naga became benevolent.
Change is all part of the dragon mythology evolution.
Marduk nearly always has a 'true' dragon at his side, the way ancient near-eastern artists denoted a dragon-god if shown as a human. We see this in depictions of ningishzida as well. This is not my idea, but noted by trained scholars of near-eastern ancient culture. In the land where Marduk became most venerated, Babylon, Marduks father enki/ea is described in an ancient humn with the physical appearance of a scaly dragon with heel-less feet like a theropod dinosaur. But like marduk, he was believed to take human form if he wished and is jmost often depicted in this form which humans were naturally more comfortable with.
Humans erroneously like to think of this as "the orignal dragonslaying story", oblivious to the fact, that the slayer is a dragon-god, (that can take form of a human), and that the 'dragon' is not a true dragon, but only a giant seven headed snake, as seen in the most ancient depictions.
I cannot help it if D&D geeks have transformed Tiamat from a snake, to a winged, footed dragon.
A couple of comments here: HAJiME and Im-postle-able, please avoid the profanity, i've had to edit some of your posts to remove the obscenities.
Secondly, Dragonic Chronicler and Dariune99 i'm going to need to ask you not to bring up issues from other web sites or forums, if you'd like to discuss anything that happened elsewhere it's best to do that in private via PMs or by e-mail.
Thirdly to everyone, lets demonstrate that the subject of dragons can be discussed on here in a civil and constructive fashion.
Thank you.
Secondly, Dragonic Chronicler and Dariune99 i'm going to need to ask you not to bring up issues from other web sites or forums, if you'd like to discuss anything that happened elsewhere it's best to do that in private via PMs or by e-mail.
Thirdly to everyone, lets demonstrate that the subject of dragons can be discussed on here in a civil and constructive fashion.
Thank you.
QUOTE
The dragons that my book proports as real creatures
What book? Your book, that you've written?
QUOTE
But understand that in ancient times the word 'serpent' could apply to any 'reptile'.
Why then are Tiamat and Apep not dragons, but "simply enormous serpents", in your own words?
QUOTE
long necked, winged, scale-covered creatures with powerful clawed feet and a long tail.
So anything lacking these characteristics is not a dragon?
QUOTE (from Wikipedia article on Lindworm)
several people in Småland, Sweden that said they had encountered giant snakes, sometimes equipped with a long mane. He gathered around 50 eyewitness reports
...So not dragons?
QUOTE (SaRuMaN @ Apr 15 2008, 12:49 PM)
A couple of comments here: HAJiME and Im-postle-able, please avoid the profanity, i've had to edit some of your posts to remove the obscenities.
Secondly, Dragonic Chronicler and Dariune99 i'm going to need to ask you not to bring up issues from other web sites or forums, if you'd like to discuss anything that happened elsewhere it's best to do that in private via PMs or by e-mail.
Thirdly to everyone, lets demonstrate that the subject of dragons can be discussed on here in a civil and constructive fashion.
Thank you.
Secondly, Dragonic Chronicler and Dariune99 i'm going to need to ask you not to bring up issues from other web sites or forums, if you'd like to discuss anything that happened elsewhere it's best to do that in private via PMs or by e-mail.
Thirdly to everyone, lets demonstrate that the subject of dragons can be discussed on here in a civil and constructive fashion.
Thank you.
Thats what i said.
But i think perhaps it was a mistake my coming here. Its a fantastic place and my genuin respect lays with the owners and workers of this site. But already i have sparked a row when all i sought was conversation.
i shall go back to where i came from
Have fun all, oh and no hard feelings people ok
I'm not saying don't use the forum, you're very welcome to participate on the boards, you are someone who is very knowledgable on this subject and we'd love to hear your contributions.
All we ask is that any past personal conflicts between the two of you not be brought up in the discussions.
All we ask is that any past personal conflicts between the two of you not be brought up in the discussions.
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