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Incorrigible1
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 16 2008, 08:28 PM) *
Some of the world's most brilliant scientists believe in/worship a God that the ancient evidence proves was originally considered a dragon deity. And I think these people are far less idotic or childish as you.

These scientists don't worship a dragon. That is truly idiotic.
Archosaur
QUOTE (Leonardo @ Apr 16 2008, 01:42 AM) *
Good info, archosaur, however Uktenna/Uktena is a 'great snake' motif and not described as legged or winged in many (if not all) Native American legends of it.

Uktena - Wiki

Uktena - Legend

I will admit my insertion of Quetzal was a little bit of a trap. wink2.gif Quetzal (quetzalli) is one of a member of a family of birds. Quetzalcoatl was undoubtedly serpentine (no legs, no wings) but was alternatively depicted as a man with a feathered headdress. There is some speculation the appellation is a veneration of a powerful ruler from early Aztec history ( Topiltzin Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl) and was/is it not common of tribal leaders to pick an animal motif with which to personify, adding the 'power' of the animal to their attributes and so enhancing their fitness to rule? Snakes are common in that locale if I'm not mistaken?

I don't know an awful lot about the Rainbow Serpent of Australian Aboriginal Dream Time mythology, but in all the stories/depictions I have seen/heard of it nowhere have I seen it described as having wings or legs.

Your serpentine origination of all these mythic beings is almost certainly the factual one. Snake-god motifs are common around the world as the creature was, and still is, venerated in many cultures. I would rule out any serpentine myth when looking at DC's theory of 'legged, winged, intelligent fire-breathing, demi-godlike dragons'. While the dragon may be a derivative of ancient snake-worship, usually the motif's attributes stay fairly rigid to the form actually converted into the mythic being (size being one obvious exception).

Having legs and wings I'd find it much more likely the dragon is a confusion of (real) animals which has been able to be granted very special attributes (the fire-breathing etc) due to its entirely mythic nature.


Leo, please allow me to introduce Uktenna:

Click to view attachment
from an old artifact

Click to view attachment
from a Cherokee parade. It kind of reminds me of Chinatown Dragon parades...

Actually, the "blazing diamond" that Uktenna had on it's head reminds me of the dragon pearls of the far east, the me (or power stones) of the Mesopotamian mushu, and the forehead gem of a Swiss dragon (the name escapes me). In all cases, the legends indicate that the stone is a source of great power, and the lure of many 'heroes" who would seek to take it. An interesting commonality across multiple continents.


As for Q:

http://www.sanjose.com/underbelly/unbelly/...tzy/quetzy.html
Click to view attachment
a statue dedicated to him in San Jose...today

http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme9.shtml
some bits on Mormons and Q. I need to look closer. Let me know what you all think.

edit: found more: Q Masons:
http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/order_of_the...oatl_ritual.htm

So: Uktena is a dragony as any of the ancient, pre-Hollywood dragons I have seen.

And: Q, and possibly other dragons, still seem to have an influence in today's spiritual life.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (HAJiME @ Apr 16 2008, 12:12 PM) *
Sorry for the double post, I just found this rediculoud article.

http://www.weirdasianews.com/2007/06/29/re...splay-in-china/

But the photo is kind of cool and I wondered if anyone knew anymore about it?

linked-image

...Isn't that the FAKE dragon model they used in Animal Planet's show on the theory of dragons?
Archosaur
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 16 2008, 10:51 PM) *
...Isn't that the FAKE dragon model they used in Animal Planet's show on the theory of dragons?


Yes, it is the mock up for the "discovered corpse". Good model, though.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (Archosaur @ Apr 16 2008, 08:03 PM) *
Yes, it is the mock up for the "discovered corpse". Good model, though.

Yep, thought so. They really shouldn't be saying this model is a real dragon on the internet though. We can already see what happens when people make claims like that.
GreatFenris
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 17 2008, 03:28 AM) *
Some of the world's most brilliant scientists believe in/worship a God that the ancient evidence proves was originally considered a dragon deity. And I think these people are far less idotic or childish as you.



Names DC. Give us names. I dont give a dang about yours, as I doubt the book will be released at this rate but I do want to know who these scientists are that you speak of.
bball
QUOTE (GreatFenris @ Apr 16 2008, 10:52 PM) *
Names DC. Give us names. I dont give a dang about yours, as I doubt the book will be released at this rate but I do want to know who these scientists are that you speak of.

Not to interrupt, but DC is referring to scientists who are Christians.
Incorrigible1
QUOTE (bball @ Apr 16 2008, 11:33 PM) *
Not to interrupt, but DC is referring to scientists who are Christians.

If I were Christian, I'd be damn peeved. DC impugns Christians.
HAJiME
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 17 2008, 02:04 AM) *
In all truthfullness ( and I have never lied here, even once), my book on the Roman Army that is sold in the Britsh Museum (and The Museum of London), has a color photo of the original and quite famous (if you are 'in' to such subjects), Draco, which was found at Niederbieber, Germany, and over 1,800 years old. And that's the truth.

So, this book has a picture of a model of a dragon, with some fabric attached?

linked-image

linked-image

http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/draco.htm

That is truly breathtaking. Whilst you never suggested there was any photos which prooved any live animals existence, this is an example of where you make are incoherent. I had no idea what a "Draco" was, nor why it was related to the Roman Army. With no explaination and no links, it clearly looks like you were suggesting photos of dragons. You may have never lied, but you have failed to explain, which is as good as lying. I can now see that the many dragon sightings you talk of are not what me or anyone else would consider a dragon. They are sightings of lake monsters. Aren't they? You have no evidence that anyone, in recent history, has seen a large, 4-legged reptile, with wings, a long tail... and that breaths... fire?

See, I had NO trouble finding out what a Draco was. Which basically shows you(and everyone else) that If I can't find the other "common knowledge" things you speak of (such as documented sightings of dragons) then they clearly aren't common knowledge and such documentations are unlikely to exist.

Yesterday, at work, I showed this thread to the content seekers. We had a laugh. These guys get payed to find stuff on the internet, check that the company's ideas are original and find "cool stuff" that might inspire the company's work. I work at the largest telecommunications company in the UK. And THEY couldn't find anything which suggests that anyone believes in real dragons.

If you could provide sources to your words, I'd not have an issue with any of your claims.

Edit: Removed abusive language.
AztecInca
Hajime you are in clear violation of rule 3f. Abusive behaviour: Do not be rude, insulting, offensive, snide, obnoxious or abusive towards other members. This behaviour is completly unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Please keep all discussion civil and constructive.
eight bits
It is helpful that in so few words, the modus operandi is so clearly laid out.

QUOTE
Some of the world's most brilliant scientists believe in/worship a God that the ancient evidence proves was originally considered a dragon deity. And I think these people are far less idotic or childish as you.

I can claim they agree with me = "some of the world's most brilliant"
Someone disagrees with me = "idiotic or childish"

And then there is "a God that the ancient evidence proves was originally considered a dragon deity."

The modern people do not worship a dragon, period. What the evidence shows is that some Hebrews borrowed religious ideas from some of their neighbors. Some of those religious ideas featured gods with animal qualities, and some of the animals involved were cold-blooded and big.

Fascinating as it is to ponder that people borrow ideas from one another, once an idea is borrowed, then it becomes the borrower's idea, too. And like most borrowers, Hebrews combined ideas, their own as well as others'. to create a new idea, which combination is then and thereafter their idea.

So, the actual God worshipped by modern people is like Kevin Bacon in the "six degrees of separation" game. There is a "connection" between the God of Abraham and every other god that has ever been anywhere.

But just as Kevin Bacon is not, and never was, Lillian Gish, the God of Abraham is not a dragon, and never was, either.

On another matter, DC, you have cited a work in support of your argument, namely, a book that is sold in two London museums, has been translated into other languages, has two illustrations related to dragons, and concerns the Roman Army.

The standards for scholarly citation of a published work are straightforward: provide sufficient inormation so that anyone can locate the book; minimally, the author's name or pseudonym, and the title of the book. If you are unable or unwilling to provide that much, then you ought not to have mentioned the work.

Given that you have not backed up your claim that the work exists, people are entitled to draw whatever conclusion they wish about your scholarship and about whether or not you are telling the truth that such a work exists.

Self-serving statements that you are not lying are no substitutes for missing citations in standard and usual form. No privacy question arises; your claim is that this is an already published work.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Incorrigible1 @ Apr 17 2008, 12:06 AM) *
If I were Christian, I'd be damn peeved. DC impugns Christians.


There are a number of scholars of near eastern religion who see the undeniable proof that Yahweh is simply a recast of earliers gods, particularly Enki,"the Great Dragon who stand in Eridu", who creatd the garden of Eden, tricked a man named Adam out of Eternal Life, warned the original Noah of the great flood, etc. etc.

So if Yahweh is real, he is the dragon Enki. And many things in the Bible prove he was still regarded as a dragon by the ancients. Even other cultures like the Persians acknowledged he was a true entity, but a dragon, as did at least half the early Christian world. And this would explain a lot of things, wouldn't it? Of course we are going to see these creatures, even today in fleeting glimpses, because they are physical creatures we used to feed our best animals and sometimes even children to.

But being infinitely superior to us, they can easily elude any serious attempts to capture them.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (eight bits @ Apr 17 2008, 05:14 AM) *
It is helpful that in so few words, the modus operandi is so clearly laid out.


I can claim they agree with me = "some of the world's most brilliant"
Someone disagrees with me = "idiotic or childish"

And then there is "a God that the ancient evidence proves was originally considered a dragon deity."

The modern people do not worship a dragon, period. What the evidence shows is that some Hebrews borrowed religious ideas from some of their neighbors. Some of those religious ideas featured gods with animal qualities, and some of the animals involved were cold-blooded and big.

Fascinating as it is to ponder that people borrow ideas from one another, once an idea is borrowed, then it becomes the borrower's idea, too. And like most borrowers, Hebrews combined ideas, their own as well as others'. to create a new idea, which combination is then and thereafter their idea.

So, the actual God worshipped by modern people is like Kevin Bacon in the "six degrees of separation" game. There is a "connection" between the God of Abraham and every other god that has ever been anywhere.

But just as Kevin Bacon is not, and never was, Lillian Gish, the God of Abraham is not a dragon, and never was, either.

On another matter, DC, you have cited a work in support of your argument, namely, a book that is sold in two London museums, has been translated into other languages, has two illustrations related to dragons, and concerns the Roman Army.

The standards for scholarly citation of a published work are straightforward: provide sufficient inormation so that anyone can locate the book; minimally, the author's name or pseudonym, and the title of the book. If you are unable or unwilling to provide that much, then you ought not to have mentioned the work.

Given that you have not backed up your claim that the work exists, people are entitled to draw whatever conclusion they wish about your scholarship and about whether or not you are telling the truth that such a work exists.

Self-serving statements that you are not lying are no substitutes for missing citations in standard and usual form. No privacy question arises; your claim is that this is an already published work.


A large intelligent reptile deity by any other name is still a large intelligent reptile deity. You do not hae to use the Greek derived workd "dragon" (even though the ancient Jews DID when translating the hebrew name of the highest heavenly creatures).

A God cannot be simply what people feel most comfortable with. If He was originally conceived as a great reptile, then chances are that is His true form.

My books in those two museums have no bearing on these discussions. The Dracons that the book contains are real ancient artifacts but not real living Drakons or thier remains.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Incorrigible1 @ Apr 16 2008, 08:41 PM) *
These scientists don't worship a dragon. That is truly idiotic.


No they shouldn't, for Yahweh was simply an assistant to the creator entity. That is why many scientists claim to be deists, believing there is a creator entity, but not convinced the biblical Yahweh is that creator.

And Actually, the real Bible says he isn't. The real Bible says that the fire spewing, winged, calve and virgin-eating Yahweh is a tribal assistant 'god' that was assigned to be a tribal deity for the Hebrews. The creator was called El or Elohim. We see the difference in both the Bible and in Cannanit beliefs, but later, the Jews melded El and Yahweh into the same deity.

This combo deity of dragon and creator is essentially the God of the several religions that ackowledge the Bible.

And interestingly, we see other tribal dragon dieties all over the world.

eight bits
QUOTE
A God cannot be simply what people feel most comfortable with.

Says who? You're a theologian now, too?

QUOTE
My books in those two museums have no bearing on these discussions.

Then why did you bring it up?

In any case, you cannot unring the bell. You attempted to bolster your reputation for scholarly achievement by alluding to a published book you claim to have written. That it was translated into other languages impressed you as relevant to these discusions, surely the title and pseudonymous author are at least as relevant.
veledran
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 16 2008, 08:59 PM) *
The reason the head looks so big is becasue the body is supposed to be dessicated, much like the remains of the "iceman".


That would not cause that much change to the neck. The size does not match up. You can also look at the other portions of the 'body' to see how much they have 'changed'.

You can look at the picture here to see what it does to the body.


linked-image
HAJiME
Couldn't find DC's book at the British Museum.

I guess it must be SO good it sold out.
667-Neighbor of the Beast
QUOTE (HAJiME @ Apr 17 2008, 05:16 PM) *
Couldn't find DC's book at the British Museum.

I guess it must be SO good it sold out.


Or, it simply does not exist. Has anyone here ever heard of an author that does NOT want people to read their book, or even know what it is??
eight bits
Thanks for the look-see. Can't say I'm surprised that you couldn't find it.
The One Who Is
QUOTE (667-Neighbor of the Beast @ Apr 17 2008, 04:20 PM) *
Or, it simply does not exist. Has anyone here ever heard of an author that does NOT want people to read their book, or even know what it is??

Well, I for one have written things in the past that I wouldn't want to be associated with now. XD

(No, not full-length books, dang it.)

Perhaps, contrary to his current religious system, DC included sources in that work?
Dragon Seeker
Well actually i would like to search for his book, if i knew the title of it
The One Who Is
So would I. I was going to message DC asking if he would name it in confidence, but his inbox is full. disgust.gif
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (The One Who Is @ Apr 17 2008, 04:12 PM) *
So would I. I was going to message DC asking if he would name it in confidence, but his inbox is full. disgust.gif

How convenient....
Incorrigible1
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 17 2008, 06:55 PM) *
How convenient....

Probably all those dragon-worshiping eminent scientists sending kudos............
The One Who Is
QUOTE (Incorrigible1 @ Apr 17 2008, 07:04 PM) *
Probably all those dragon-worshiping eminent scientists sending kudos............

And those shady people from the British Museum...

QUOTE (CLASSIFIED)
DC:

So far, the non-disclosure project has gone without a hitch. We have successfully prevented thousands of people from reading your book. Fortunately, due to people's lack of knowledge on or interest in the subject, it was only rarely necessary to take any steps to do so. In a recent incident, however, an individual appeared to undergo a meticulous search for the published manuscript, and we were forced to surreptitiously distract him while removing the books from their shelf to a more secure location behind those pamphlets on the racks no one pays attention to.

Luckily, we pulled it off without a hitch. The director has become somewhat worried, however, as we do not know what sparked this individual's interest. Of course, due to protocol, we could not inquire. There is a definite possibility that someone attached to the project itself has been leaking information. Keep your eyes open.
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (The One Who Is @ Apr 17 2008, 05:23 PM) *
And those shady people from the British Museum...

....Wtf???? The whole point of publishing a book is for people to be able to read it......
The One Who Is
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 17 2008, 07:25 PM) *
....Wtf???? The whole point of publishing a book is for people to be able to read it......

Evidently not... xP
Lady Otterwynnd
QUOTE (The One Who Is @ Apr 17 2008, 05:27 PM) *
Evidently not... xP

no.gif That's kind of ridiculous considering DC claims to have enough evidence to support his theory in that book. If there really was that much evidence, he wouldn't want it to be hidden and hard to find. So, we can assume that this book isn't as reliable as he says, I guess. Until I read it, I can't say I believe what he says.
The One Who Is
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 17 2008, 07:33 PM) *
no.gif That's kind of ridiculous considering DC claims to have enough evidence to support his theory in that book. If there really was that much evidence, he wouldn't want it to be hidden and hard to find. So, we can assume that this book isn't as reliable as he says, I guess. Until I read it, I can't say I believe what he says.

Just for the record, you do realize that I was joking, right? XD

But, yeah, I agree.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Lady Otterwynnd @ Apr 17 2008, 07:33 PM) *
no.gif That's kind of ridiculous considering DC claims to have enough evidence to support his theory in that book. If there really was that much evidence, he wouldn't want it to be hidden and hard to find. So, we can assume that this book isn't as reliable as he says, I guess. Until I read it, I can't say I believe what he says.


As usual, 'you don't have a clue'.

My book at the BM Gift Shop IS NOT the new dragon book, that hasn't been released yet. It is a book about the Roman Army, that happens to have photos of an original Roman Draco Standard in it.

I doubt anyone here is interested in the Roman book, though it is very popular in that field.
theSOURCE
Ahh, so you're the one who wrote this book.

linked-image

draconic chronicler
QUOTE (theSOURCE @ Apr 17 2008, 09:01 PM) *
Ahh, so you're the one who wrote this book.

linked-image


You'll find no Dracos there. That was the clue.
theSOURCE
It was a joke DC. Please lighten up for once. rolleyes.gif
Dragon Seeker
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 18 2008, 01:11 AM) *
As usual, 'you don't have a clue'.

My book at the BM Gift Shop IS NOT the new dragon book, that hasn't been released yet. It is a book about the Roman Army, that happens to have photos of an original Roman Draco Standard in it.

I doubt anyone here is interested in the Roman book, though it is very popular in that field.


Ok DC a couple of things One: You need to learn how to take a joke as theSOURCE has pointed out and Two: I do believe we asked for a title not a riddle, so stop being a jerk and just give us the answer we are looking for please.

Why am i saying such things? Simply because im not in that great a mood for one and for two, I HATE RIDDLES!!
Dariune99
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 18 2008, 02:11 AM) *
As usual, 'you don't have a clue'.

My book at the BM Gift Shop IS NOT the new dragon book, that hasn't been released yet. It is a book about the Roman Army, that happens to have photos of an original Roman Draco Standard in it.

I doubt anyone here is interested in the Roman book, though it is very popular in that field.


Ah a book about Romans? That would be immensly interesting. You see my brother is a historian with the Romans as his Forte. Where i went down the path of mythology he went down the path of Tetsudo formations, Gaius Marius and superb engineering. Therefore im sure, now that you know that some of us would find it interesting, that you could divulge the name of the book for the benefit of us lesser beings.

Disclaimer: I do not believe we are lesser beings really, i was joking.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 17 2008, 10:19 PM) *
Ok DC a couple of things One: You need to learn how to take a joke as theSOURCE has pointed out and Two: I do believe we asked for a title not a riddle, so stop being a jerk and just give us the answer we are looking for please.

Why am i saying such things? Simply because im not in that great a mood for one and for two, I HATE RIDDLES!!


If I still lived in Europe it would not be such a big deal. But the new dragon book will upset a lot of people becasue of the connection between dragons and the deities of current religious beliefs. Therefore I will need to publish it under a pseudonym. I am now stationed deep in the Bible Bet of the Southern U.S.

Although this book does show nice photos of the best documented Roman military draco, it has nothing to do with whether or not dragons are real creatures.
667-Neighbor of the Beast
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 17 2008, 11:19 PM) *
Ok DC a couple of things One: You need to learn how to take a joke as theSOURCE has pointed out and Two: I do believe we asked for a title not a riddle, so stop being a jerk and just give us the answer we are looking for please.

Why am i saying such things? Simply because im not in that great a mood for one and for two, I HATE RIDDLES!!


thumbsup.gif
Sporkling
May I ask, in your opinion, where did the first dragon sighting come from?


By the way, DC your inbox is full.
Dariune99
Thats not an easy question to answer.
i would say the first draconic creature to be talked about would probably be the dreamtime rainbow serpent believed in by the natives of the Congo region of west africa, Dahomey, Nigeria, the caribbean island of Haiti, Melanesia, Polynesia, Papua New Guinea and Australia. That predates pretty much anything else we have recorded. After that i would probably have to say Aapep/ Apothis from Egypt, Tiamat from babylon or the unnamed dragon found by Fu-Hsi in China.

tipsy_munchkin
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 18 2008, 12:17 PM) *
If I still lived in Europe it would not be such a big deal. But the new dragon book will upset a lot of people becasue of the connection between dragons and the deities of current religious beliefs. Therefore I will need to publish it under a pseudonym. I am now stationed deep in the Bible Bet of the Southern U.S.

Although this book does show nice photos of the best documented Roman military draco, it has nothing to do with whether or not dragons are real creatures.


Surely though you can see how giving the title of this publication would add to your credibility. It is not so much a matter of wether this previous publication relates to the dragon theory but more that it is suspicous, that even though as you state it has nothing controversial in it, that you refuse to divulge the title.

There would be no harm done to you to give this information but it would help a great deal in removing the suspicion that you fabricated this text to lend yourself credibility. I see no reason to withhold the title even though it bears no direct relation to the topic. You did bring it up in the first place for some reason I would assume to lend credibility to yourself but it doens't do so unless we know wether it actually exists.
Dragon Seeker
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Apr 18 2008, 12:17 PM) *
If I still lived in Europe it would not be such a big deal. But the new dragon book will upset a lot of people becasue of the connection between dragons and the deities of current religious beliefs. Therefore I will need to publish it under a pseudonym. I am now stationed deep in the Bible Bet of the Southern U.S.

Although this book does show nice photos of the best documented Roman military draco, it has nothing to do with whether or not dragons are real creatures.



Again DC with no title, honestly im begining to dout that you even have a book and are just trying to make yourself look cooler online
Incorrigible1
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 18 2008, 08:14 AM) *
Again DC with no title, honestly im begining to dout that you even have a book and are just trying to make yourself look cooler online

Hero worship dies hard. Congratulations for achieving a minor awakening.
Dragon Seeker
QUOTE (Incorrigible1 @ Apr 18 2008, 02:17 PM) *
Hero worship dies hard. Congratulations for achieving a minor awakening.


Who said i worshiped him as a "Hero", i simply agree with most of his statements cause they pulled my ass out of the fire once or twice, but now im trying to get my info correct, because i really hate relying on others to "pull my ass out of the fire" so to speak, i'd rather to that on my own thank you
Evangium
QUOTE (Dariune99 @ Apr 18 2008, 10:37 PM) *
Thats not an easy question to answer.
i would say the first draconic creature to be talked about would probably be the dreamtime rainbow serpent believed in by the natives of the Congo region of west africa, Dahomey, Nigeria, the caribbean island of Haiti, Melanesia, Polynesia, Papua New Guinea and Australia. That predates pretty much anything else we have recorded. After that i would probably have to say Aapep/ Apothis from Egypt, Tiamat from babylon or the unnamed dragon found by Fu-Hsi in China.

I'm of the opinion that the modern overarching concept of the 'Rainbow serpent' (in reference to Australian Aboriginal beliefs) is more of an unintentional invention of Radcliffe-Brown than a universal belief shared by all.
On the face value, it can be taken that the rainbow serpent is a common belief for all Aboriginal people, however examined in a little more detail, one soon sees myriad discriptions and depections spread across the tribal groups. In some cases there is even a total abscence of said creature in tribal lore...
Likewise, the rainbow serpent isn't always the intelligent creator or protector/destroyer associated with dragon gods. In some lore he is simply a very large snake and behaves accordingly (with rivers, mountains etc.. being created as a result of his movements, rather than an intentional act).
But the association with the serpent undoubtedly shows that snakes possibley had a huge effect on the evolution of human pysche.
In christian lore, the snake tempts with the oppurtunity to literally taste forbidden knowledge (then as punishment, is forever cursed to live in the dust and be feared and reviled by man). Other ancient cultures have also associated the serpent with hidden knowledge (unfortunately ancient history is not a strong suite for me, so hopefully others can offer up examples). At risk of causing unintentional offence to some participants in these discussions, it would certainly be a more plausible argument to put forward that the concept of 'dragon' evolved from snakes.
Dragon Seeker
QUOTE (Evangium @ Apr 18 2008, 02:32 PM) *
I'm of the opinion that the modern overarching concept of the 'Rainbow serpent' (in reference to Australian Aboriginal beliefs) is more of an unintentional invention of Radcliffe-Brown than a universal belief shared by all.
On the face value, it can be taken that the rainbow serpent is a common belief for all Aboriginal people, however examined in a little more detail, one soon sees myriad discriptions and depections spread across the tribal groups. In some cases there is even a total abscence of said creature in tribal lore...
Likewise, the rainbow serpent isn't always the intelligent creator or protector/destroyer associated with dragon gods. In some lore he is simply a very large snake and behaves accordingly (with rivers, mountains etc.. being created as a result of his movements, rather than an intentional act).
But the association with the serpent undoubtedly shows that snakes possibley had a huge effect on the evolution of human pysche.
In christian lore, the snake tempts with the oppurtunity to literally taste forbidden knowledge (then as punishment, is forever cursed to live in the dust and be feared and reviled by man). Other ancient cultures have also associated the serpent with hidden knowledge (unfortunately ancient history is not a strong suite for me, so hopefully others can offer up examples). At risk of causing unintentional offence to some participants in these discussions, it would certainly be a more plausible argument to put forward that the concept of 'dragon' evolved from snakes.


An interesting idea, it certainly is possible the dragons "evolved" so to speak, from snakes (and que DC in 3...2...)
Evangium
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 18 2008, 11:34 PM) *
An interesting idea, it certainly is possible the dragons "evolved" so to speak, from snakes (and que DC in 3...2...)

At risk of making a unversal claim, it does seem that many people across all races and cultures have a dual fear/fascination reaction to snakes. Even those who haven't seen one in the flesh. So it's not such a leap of logic to make them even more fearsome in our minds (another thing that seems to be common in humans).

Dariune99
QUOTE (Evangium @ Apr 18 2008, 02:32 PM) *
I'm of the opinion that the modern overarching concept of the 'Rainbow serpent' (in reference to Australian Aboriginal beliefs) is more of an unintentional invention of Radcliffe-Brown than a universal belief shared by all.
On the face value, it can be taken that the rainbow serpent is a common belief for all Aboriginal people, however examined in a little more detail, one soon sees myriad discriptions and depections spread across the tribal groups. In some cases there is even a total abscence of said creature in tribal lore...
Likewise, the rainbow serpent isn't always the intelligent creator or protector/destroyer associated with dragon gods. In some lore he is simply a very large snake and behaves accordingly (with rivers, mountains etc.. being created as a result of his movements, rather than an intentional act).
But the association with the serpent undoubtedly shows that snakes possibley had a huge effect on the evolution of human pysche.
In christian lore, the snake tempts with the oppurtunity to literally taste forbidden knowledge (then as punishment, is forever cursed to live in the dust and be feared and reviled by man). Other ancient cultures have also associated the serpent with hidden knowledge (unfortunately ancient history is not a strong suite for me, so hopefully others can offer up examples). At risk of causing unintentional offence to some participants in these discussions, it would certainly be a more plausible argument to put forward that the concept of 'dragon' evolved from snakes.


Oh i could not agree more. As i read your post i was nodding in agreement with sentence after sentence.
i am aware that not all oboriginal tribes worshiped the rainbow serpent. And the truth is, we cannot really know who believed in the rainbow serpent and who did not all that time ago. I will confess now that my knowledge here is rather lacking because the rainbow serpent predates many of the dragons that i believe led to the dragons we all know now and so is not really my field.

Tell me more on how the rainbow serpent was sometimes depicted as being merely a snake with no cultural function. It seems odd to me that a mythological creature such as the rainbow serpent could be thought up to serve no celestial, destructive or benevolent purpose.

I personally believe that dragons are a result of early man trying to explain things. Most mythological beings are based on a real creature and like you i believe the dragon was initially based on the snake. Especially as early dragons are all snake like in appearence compared to the ones we know now. Also if you follow the trend (which i wont go into here) it would appear that the legends sprung up in a pattern through out the world. For instance, The Naga became popular in India when the Bhudda religion spread, taking over the maritime naga tribe and converting their destructive Naga gods to protectors of the Bhudda. This in turn started to spread to China. With trade and travel the legend of the Naga spread to China which may well have inspired the Half horse half snake creature which, as legend would have it, taught the chinese caligeraphy.

Sorry i went off on a tangent there
667-Neighbor of the Beast
QUOTE (Dragon Seeker @ Apr 18 2008, 09:14 AM) *
Again DC with no title, honestly im begining to dout that you even have a book and are just trying to make yourself look cooler online



Now your catching on!! thumbsup.gif
667-Neighbor of the Beast
QUOTE (Evangium @ Apr 18 2008, 09:32 AM) *
I'm of the opinion that the modern overarching concept of the 'Rainbow serpent' (in reference to Australian Aboriginal beliefs) is more of an unintentional invention of Radcliffe-Brown than a universal belief shared by all.
On the face value, it can be taken that the rainbow serpent is a common belief for all Aboriginal people, however examined in a little more detail, one soon sees myriad discriptions and depections spread across the tribal groups. In some cases there is even a total abscence of said creature in tribal lore...
Likewise, the rainbow serpent isn't always the intelligent creator or protector/destroyer associated with dragon gods. In some lore he is simply a very large snake and behaves accordingly (with rivers, mountains etc.. being created as a result of his movements, rather than an intentional act).
But the association with the serpent undoubtedly shows that snakes possibley had a huge effect on the evolution of human pysche.
In christian lore, the snake tempts with the oppurtunity to literally taste forbidden knowledge (then as punishment, is forever cursed to live in the dust and be feared and reviled by man). Other ancient cultures have also associated the serpent with hidden knowledge (unfortunately ancient history is not a strong suite for me, so hopefully others can offer up examples). At risk of causing unintentional offence to some participants in these discussions, it would certainly be a more plausible argument to put forward that the concept of 'dragon' evolved from snakes.


I agree with this. Sounds very plausible. It makes sense that, since humans for the most part have a natural fear of snakes, might have created the legends of dragons by trying to make them even more intimidating. Adding things such as wings, legs, fire breathing, intelligence, would succeed in making them a much more powerfull and frightfull creature.
667-Neighbor of the Beast
QUOTE (Dariune99 @ Apr 18 2008, 10:06 AM) *
Oh i could not agree more. As i read your post i was nodding in agreement with sentence after sentence.
i am aware that not all oboriginal tribes worshiped the rainbow serpent. And the truth is, we cannot really know who believed in the rainbow serpent and who did not all that time ago. I will confess now that my knowledge here is rather lacking because the rainbow serpent predates many of the dragons that i believe led to the dragons we all know now and so is not really my field.

Tell me more on how the rainbow serpent was sometimes depicted as being merely a snake with no cultural function. It seems odd to me that a mythological creature such as the rainbow serpent could be thought up to serve no celestial, destructive or benevolent purpose.

I personally believe that dragons are a result of early man trying to explain things. Most mythological beings are based on a real creature and like you i believe the dragon was initially based on the snake. Especially as early dragons are all snake like in appearence compared to the ones we know now. Also if you follow the trend (which i wont go into here) it would appear that the legends sprung up in a pattern through out the world. For instance, The Naga became popular in India when the Bhudda religion spread, taking over the maritime naga tribe and converting their destructive Naga gods to protectors of the Bhudda. This in turn started to spread to China. With trade and travel the legend of the Naga spread to China which may well have inspired the Half horse half snake creature which, as legend would have it, taught the chinese caligeraphy.

Sorry i went off on a tangent there


No need to apoliogize. For once, this thread has an intelligent topic to discuss.
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