Funny that you lend credence to the LEAST documented of all dragon stories, that of St. George. Yes, George seems to have been a real Roman soldier in the 3rd Century AD, but there was nothing about a dragon in his life until an author invented it in the late middle ages and added it to his book so George's story would be more interesting.

Most of the Christian dragonslaying stories were invented for the same book. As I have shown, dragons were actually heavenly Creatures in the real Christian theology.

Most of the medieval dragonslaying stories were clearly written as farces that were not to be taken seriously, though people seriously believed that dragons were real, and amonst the nonsense we see realistic accounts of the creatures merely raiding farms, and seen by numbers of people.

And Gilgamish's monster seems to be a kind of machine, and he himself may have originally been based on a dragon that was anthropomorshpised, as the dragon gods eventually were as well. If you read the poem there is a point where it is plainly stated he does not look like a human.

No. Probably because there is no such creature.

Ah huh.

Why won't you just supply a link to back up your claim of "A deer with gills"?

http://www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodacty...etinhensis.html

It was not from the Congo but Veitnam.

The 'gills' are flaps of skin that cover a maxillary gland that secretes "a thick, grayish-green paste with a foul, pungent odor reminiscent of the musk of mustelids"

That's what I'm looking for and it will take a bit as this was shown several years ago.

However to think that nothing is ever found in the Congo just shows ignorance.

I never said that.

Thank you for the link. See, it was that easy.

I'm a little confused by your use of the term 'false taboo', milady. Are you meaning false taboo in the sense of 'made up', or false taboo in the sense that it is real, but morally wrong?
Menstural blood, in some cultures, is still regarded as having the 'fearsome' power of potentially being able to rob a man of his strength, and segregation of menstrating women is a practice that still continues in some parts of the world today.

A fuller retelling of the Wawilak Sisters Story shows that it is probably less about colossal serpents/dragons and more about sexism, sex and fertility. This version is essentially the compilation of the four versions of this myth.

Knight, Chris (1983). Levi-Strauss and the Dragon: Mythologiques Reconsidered in the Light of an Australian Aboriginal Myth. Man, New Series, Vol. 18, No. 1, (Mar., 1983), pp. 21-50. Published by: Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland



edit:corrected OCR (text recognition) generated 'typos'

By false taboo I mean morally wrong and made up in a sense. It's morally wrong to segregate women over something they have no control over and that happens naturally. That's just unfair and sexist. It's made up in that menstrual blood isn't any more dirty than other blood. It's merely the lining of the uterus. There's nothing disgusting about that.

Exactly, it is not ethical to discriminate against a sex because of an incontrolable bodily function.

You shouldn,t descriminate against someones sex full stop, nice incorrigable real classy

Yeah. Sexual discrimination is bad, but not as bad as you monsuier Incorrigible.

It's a comical line from an old Monty Python flick, Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Quote "NICH"

Did you say shrubberies?

Quote "NICH"

IT!!!!

thats right the forbidden word

IT!!

And check out this pic

Tis called a forbidden word for a reason dude also that pic would make a cool tatoo is it of Quatzelaquatal

Just when this thread has a spark of intelect, it gets stoopid again.

I have a question for DC, since he seems to be our resident expert on all things dragon......

Where do dragons fit in the 21st century ?? Do you believe they still exist ?? I've read in your previous posts that you believe dragons were god-like creatures who possessed intelligence and communication skills, do you think they somehow managed to survive into the 21st century and are alive today ??

I hope you haven't abandoned this thread.......

Perhaps I've mislead you with my wording, my apologies if that is the case. I was thinking more along the lines of, for example the titans of ancient greek mythology, a great being's mundane actions (be it dying or some other action) create the world/universe that humans now live in.
As for the rainbow serpent behaving like a snake these stories show him to be doing just that-
First of all, I do apologise for using a site aimed more at upper primary school children as my first reference, but it does have a good collection of dreamtime stories (to me they appear to be a collection of Arnhem Land,North Queensland/Cape York and Central New South Wales stories. Unfortunately they don't really say where each one came from). The rainbow serpent story is toward the end of the page. It's interesting to see that despite being set in the Dreaming, that the actions of the rainbow serpent are spoken of in a manner that suggests they occured a long time before this story takes place Link
This next story shows him as a fearsome predator (and anyone reading it would be advised to note just how much like a typical constrictor his technique is. I can't really say anything about sea snakes, since I have no idea how they attack their prey, other than with powerful toxins) Link
This next one, whilst it is more of the intelligent creator vein, could possibly reflect an observation of certain species of snake and their dietry habits

And of course there's the version of my grandmother's people (unfortunately unverifiable via internet, so take it or leave it), where the Great Dividing Range (a mountain range that extends from Victoria to Queensland) is the exposed coils of the sleeping snake.
I've also heard a story (through one of the forum's members) that two mating 'rainbow serpents', created a large crater in Wolfe Creek.

Actually the tangent is quite relevent. Belief tends to transform as it migrates across time as and space. The spread of Bhuddism into China is a superb example, as we see the almagamation of old beliefs with the new.

In the information age, our cultural borders are so porous that we see more and more the emergence of universal claims of pan-global mythology.
All it takes these days is one person to stumble upon Joseph Nigg's 'The Book of Dragons & Other Mythical Beasts', for example, and suddenly the universal claim that all great serpents are dragons, becomes established fact (since the criteria for 'credibilty' seems to be 1.Is a published author, high ranking military officer, scientist with security clearence, etc... 2.Found on a global information exchange [the www.] ). Link
Or a misunderstanding of something presented as serpent divinity in myth and legend Link, as all people believed in the same serpent, and we can confirm that these great serpents existed as megafuana.
Of course the problem with these universal statements, is that they only take into consideration the superficial similarties (so from an argumentitive POV, is a hasty or sweeping generalisation).

My earlier point I tried to present to DC re: Radcliffe-Brown was- . Essentially he would have relied on an interpreter to translate for him, so his research would have been a little skewed as he would have had to 'mentally fill in the blanks' to bring those stories into his terms of understanding.
Additionally, by 1926 a few of those language/tribal groups were 'extinct', and despite his extensive travels, I doubt he came into contact with every group either, so he could not say (nor do I believe that he ever did) that all Aboriginal people believed in the rainbow serpent. Instead he identified a superficially similar pan-Australian myth within certain groups, and from there it was transformed to a universal pan-Austalian mythos. Which is all well and good, but that still lives a few missing links and some other elements that are overlooked (frogs and Kookaburras as rain and flood bringers/heralds).

And then there is the different descriptions of the serpents 'form' and habitat. In some mythology, the rainbow serpent is a rainbow (as he moves from waterhole to waterhole), and in others is a dark streak 'visible' in the milky way. If we look around the world, we see that other cultures have also looked at the night sky and imagined great snakes and dragons dwelling in the constellations, or present as the rainbow. But to say that over 50,000 years of time and space (and only recently have we developed the capability to rapidly share our culture and belief) that these people all believed the same thing requires some extraordinary proof. Be that secret hubs of civilisation, lost 'technology'/travel cabalities or flesh and blood superbeings.

IMO, your are more than correct in your ascertation that the Eurasian mythology was merely the result of gradual expansion due to the exchange of belief and culture.

So which culture do you claim did not originally regard dragons as beneficient Gods? The only possibilities may be some of the more barbarian cultures like the germanic people, who because of their illiteracy, we have no idea of their earliest beliefs. But even here, there are so many dragonforms in thier art, that this is probably unlikely. Dragon effigies on coffins suggest a guardian nature of dragons which is quite universal. So with peoples with virtually no records you cannot make a realistic appraisal. And if we concede that 'civlization' sprung from major centers like Mesopotamia and China, then in those places the dragons are essentially beneficient dieties, though sometimes with tempers.

Actually you dispute what real anthropologists agree on. That yes, these dragons have remarkable similarities despite being believed in al over the world.

The original Ddraig Goch really does not suggest a noble, protective symbol, but rather what the ancients probably regarded as "comedy" , that it was a stupid beast captured and subdued because of its taste for intoxicating beverages (mead). Perhaps even this is based on some real incidenct,t au'a a sfe d


And understand tha t I never proposed every dragon legend should be taken literally. For example, all of the dragon slaying fables are pure nonsense, though in some cases may be based on a dragon leaving an area.e obafairystoiresemust be

As I am sure you discovered yourself Arch, the more the subject is studied, one finds far more precedent for dragon legends to have a basis in fact, than less. And as more and more people populate the earth, prying into the most remote places, we have more and more 'dragon' sightings. More people may believe in dragons today, than in any previous period of history (though in some cases they may not be aware their diety was originally a dragon).

I made no misake in my assesment. There is no physical evidence to suggest humans have ever killed a dragon, and i cannot imagine any sane adult believing people with primitive weapons could do so, if we imagine the dragon to be the dragon of popular culture (large as T-Rex, intelligent, covered in scales , etc). And there are scientists who have made the statement that if large theropod dinosaurs like the T Rex survived extinction they would have wiped out the human race. An now we are talking about a landbound 'dragon' with unimpressive intelligence.

Part of the whole dragon premise is the belief that they taught humans technologies, not that they were simply a walnut brained dinosaur that survived extinction. Maybe we only survived megafauna like the saber toothed cat and dire wolf becasue our ancestors were protected by their 'dragon gods' exactly as ancient human legends and hymns attest. The "great dragon of the earth" Enlil was proclaimed in his hymns to be "a good shepherd" who protected his human flock from danger. There is a big difference between killing a fleeing herbivore like a mammoth, and killing an armored carnosaur that would actively hunt piddling little naked monkeys for food. And then give the carnosaur human or better intelligence, and it is no wonder our ancestors regarded such creatures as omnipotent gods. Interestingly, it is only dragons that man has universally believed to have great wisdom. Virtually all other gods, have been made in his own image.

If sperm whales were intelligent enough to have known man was a deadly opponent, and must be destroyed, they could have sunk every wooden ship with impunity, as demonstrated in one rare actual case, and man never could have ventured into that element. That is the power of intelligence, and why it is ludicrous to imagine man defeating a giant armored reptile with similar intelligence to his own. Stop playing D&D guy, it will only rot your mind.

Yes, I have advised and portrayed my reconstructions in many history channel productions. But I doubt this will reveal my identity here, where everyone is seemingly 'allergic' to history and seem to spend their time watching cartoons and playing dragonslayer video games, which like you, they seem to ascertain 'man's capabilities'.

I have a question for DC, since he seems to be our resident expert on all things dragon......

Where do dragons fit in the 21st century ?? Do you believe they still exist ?? I've read in your previous posts that you believe dragons were god-like creatures who possessed intelligence and communication skills, do you think they somehow managed to survive into the 21st century and are alive today ??

I hope you haven't abandoned this thread.......

Yes, I believe they are still with us. This is really the only explanation for the thousands of sightings by reliable witnesses, of large reptilian creatures, that logic dictates cannot live in deep lakes around the world. Imagine if such a creature was extremely long lived and intelligent, and would not require a large breeding explanation. Then one or two such creatures could easily elude scientific investigation. It is pretty clear they can even leave the water, according to several eyewitnesses and general dragon accounts.

And nothing about them really would have to 'defy science'. Humans can speak, so another animal could. Whales have a type of language.

Some scientists believe humans could become virtually immortal if the aging process could be shutdown, and some believe it may be possible. Spewing fire, if not an exaggeration, is certainly no less a feat that electrocuting your prey like an Eel.

The reason people believed they were gods was becasue they claimed they did 'god-like' things, like teach technologies, agriculture, domestication, laws, etc. And if true this only makes sense if they were instructed by some higher being, that at some point when human development was high enough, caused the 'dragons' to depart human contact. Some people, like Stichin, suggest these dragons were actually 'aliens', but this doesn't answer where did the aliens come from, and why hasn't so much as a single extraterrestrial lug nut ever been found..

Yes, I believe they are still with us. This is really the only explanation for the thousands of sightings by reliable witnesses, of large reptilian creatures, that logic dictates cannot live in deep lakes around the world. Imagine if such a creature was extremely long lived and intelligent, and would not require a large breeding explanation. Then one or two such creatures could easily elude scientific investigation. It is pretty clear they can even leave the water, according to several eyewitnesses and general dragon accounts.

And nothing about them really would have to 'defy science'. Humans can speak, so another animal could. Whales have a type of language.

Some scientists believe humans could become virtually immortal if the aging process could be shutdown, and some believe it may be possible. Spewing fire, if not an exaggeration, is certainly no less a feat that electrocuting your prey like an Eel.

The reason people believed they were gods was becasue they claimed they did 'god-like' things, like teach technologies, agriculture, domestication, laws, etc. And if true this only makes sense if they were instructed by some higher being, that at some point when human development was high enough, caused the 'dragons' to depart human contact. Some people, like Stichin, suggest these dragons were actually 'aliens', but this doesn't answer where did the aliens come from, and why hasn't so much as a single extraterrestrial lug nut ever been found..

Yes you can believe all these monster sitings are long lost dragons of the ancient days.
But, simply put, this is just your belief DC. There is no evidence to suggest or support such a claim.

I would also like to add that it is physically impossible for anything to breathe or spew fire. Flesh and flame do not mix and if anything did have that ability their flesh would immediately catch on fire thus killing it.

That is not the only explanation, it merely the only one you will accept. How can you claim all these witnesses are reliable? You can't. Simple as. If they can be seen by so many people why can not they be scientifically observed? That seems rather contradictory does it not?

Well most animals have communication skills of sorts.
However you comparison of breathing fire and producing electricity is not a good one. Life is naturally bio-electrical, we produce electricity all the time. Comparatively we do not produce fire in our body. So it is in fact a far greater feat.

Of course by the same argument no evidence (no eyewitnesses are not evidence) has ever been shown of dragons and I know you will make your immortality argument, but holds little ground since there is absolutely no evidence of any immortal animal or anything that could suggest it any animal could not be killed.

I would also like to add that it is physically impossible for anything to breathe or spew fire. Flesh and flame do not mix and if anything did have that ability their flesh would immediately catch on fire thus killing it.

My question is there an ACTUAL account of what dragons scales are made of? Because the only things I have ever
read about dragons is from fantasy stories that were simply made up.

You know your run of the mill Flame, Ice, Acid, spewing great winged flying tank... DRAGON

But, when you get down to the ancient history on this subject, I just can't seem to find much
on what these things were made of.

Sure there is. Hundreds, even thousands of sightings, universal human belief, if they are real creatures, all the evidence suggests they must be intellgient, like the "dragons of old, or we would have caught one by now.

That is a big 'if.' This line of logic doesn't make much sense. You need evidence that they exist at all, before you can even begin to say that the evidence suggest any kind of characteristic.

Yes you can believe all these monster sitings are long lost dragons of the ancient days.
But, simply put, this is just your belief DC. There is no evidence to suggest or support such a claim.

Producing flamable gas is a FAR more common trait in animals can an electricity weapon. Surely you know that.

Reptile scales are made of keratin, like the horns of a bull, which incidently make incredibly tough, lightweight armor. I have a reconstructed dark age helmet made from bull horn plates, and it is stronger and lighter than steel.

Scaled up to say a 50 foot long creature, it is unlikey a human would have the strength to penetrate a dragon's scale armor, and the Bible is very clear on this in its detailed description of the Leviathan, which may be a description of Yahweh Himself. The writer states that no weapon of bronze or iron can penetrate the creature's scales.