Human minds are uniquely different from every other species on earth.

The most radical difference...humans can think abstractly. No other species on earth has this ability.

You will never hear a symphony composed by an animal (although I love to hear the birds sing) or view an emotional masterpiece painted by an ape. Why?

The human mind can ponder infinity and fathom other dimensions in time and space and the existence of other realities. Do animals ponder these mysteries too?

Have you ever heard a great (blues) song and felt the emotion or studied a great masterpiece that stirred you from with in or tasted a wine that was so good it brought you great satisfaction and pleasure?

Were any of these emotions created by a species other then humans?

This is what I believe is refered to as our soul or spirit. This power is not present in the animal brain. It's what separates man from beasts. Is there an abstract gene? I doubt it.

My thinking is that we get the ability to ponder the mysteries of the universe from outside of our reality of life. It is a glimpse of our future existence.

This is what makes each one of us special and unique. Our ability to think in the abstract and ponder life and death.

Comments welcomed.

MaxDB

It,s true we have these wonderfull minds to think in abstract ways,be self aware and invent and appreciate beauty, to be awed by nature and the universe and to make choices in ways that animals don,t. And that certainly seperates us from them in a unique way! But with all these gifts what are we best at? It seems to me the one thing we do best is screw everything up we touch, and this is something animals will never be guilty of! Sad really, when you think of what we do with our gifts of thought and choice! (Don,t mind me, i,m just in a weird mood today!)

To be honest, if we look at the brain itself, it probably seems very similar to other animals, not much different. It is the experience itself that makes me believe we have something "more". Besides, all we have is our experience, so isn't it one of the best ways to determine what our own consciousness is? =D

Most other animals seem to be on "auto-drive". At least ALOT more than humans.

It is difficult to draw strong conclusions about the interior life of another creature. Human beings are not even reliable in doing so about one another.

Psychics aside, you can only work from what you see of behavior. So far as we know, the behaviors of producing language (spoken or written) and art (including musical production) are species-specifically human. Other candidate behaviors (tool making, ...) erode by requiring judgment calls, or it turns out that other animals do similar things to humans after all.

It is interesting that the signature behaviors which hold up involve communication.

People make inferences about intelligence and emotional richness from facility in communication. There doesn't seem to be any warrant for that, except by analogy that some human beings who have difficulty in communication are cognitively impaired. Of course, again, even that is an unreliable inference.

So, I don't know the evidence upon which you assert that animals do not think abstractly, do not engage in speculative ponderings, or have a less nuanced emotional repertoire than humans.

I do agreee that they are at a disadvantage in commuicating their interior lives to us. But communication is a two-way street, too. People who start out with the premise that there is something which "separates man from beasts" are unlikely to make much effort to meet an animal half way.

I have seen a family of three humans watch a stray dog mimic that she wanted a drink of water on a hot summer's day. She imitated lapping up water, she found a discarded empty water bottle and brought it to them, she nosed at their water supply.

Even though the people were paying attention to her, and there were three people, none of them got it. Eventually the family tired of the dog's interference with their outing, and the father shooed the dog away.

We are mammals, dogs are mammals. How much abstract thinking does it take to speculate that thirst, at least, might be pretty much the same throughout the class? The dog seems to think so.

There is a postscript to that story. Of course, I saw all of this, and understood what the dog was trying to get across. Duh. I had water, too.

After she was shooed away, she walked by me on her way to her next appointment. I offered her my water. She declined, and walked on.

It seems, then, that she wasn't so thirsty after all. Rather, she was testing whether humans were capable of abstract thought and of emotional sympathy for the plight of another sentient being. She and I had already met. I don't know whether I passed or not, but I had already been tested. The dog had other things to do right then.

That is possibly the most insightful thing Ive read on these forum.
Genius


You and me baby aint nothin but mammals....and its true. We aint special. Look at any cat, watch their eyes and their expression. And now tell me that inside they aint laughing at us. " Call that the pinnacle of evolution! HAH! 8 million years we had to wait for a tinopener..."

I suspect that its the old cultural mental block: English speakers tend to have the belief that anything that can't speak english obviously isnt as intelligent they are!
The only thing that seperates man from the beasts is mans inability to admit it is one of the beasts!

I am not asserting animals are not intelligent beings. I have observed my cat when he is in a room and the door is latched shut. I am amazed at how my cat knows to turn the door knob and watch him un-latch the door and exit a room. There is logic (the door is latched -what do I do?) and intelligence (turn the knob to unlatch) and this proves some kind of reasoning.

However, I would be totally blown away if he jumped up onto the keys of my piano (which he does) and played a beautiful musical composition (which I don't expect any time soon).

I think we are "special" from all other mammals and animals only because we have the ability to think beyond the realms of this reality.

MaxDB

Can you play a beautiful musical composition? I cant, and im a superior human. Besides, pianos werent made with cats in mind, they would be very tricky to use! Hell I find them tricky to use. And just we consider mozart to be amazing doesnt mean a cat would, he might think it was rubbish, and how do you know other cats don't listen in wonder at your own cat's musical abilities? you and the cat have different standards, different ears and different minds, you both listen to music in different ways. You are hardly likely to enjoy each others taste in music! I personally hate rap, but like wagner, and I wouldnt expect all rap fans to agree!
Prove to me that every time your cat lands on the keys of your piano he isnt playing a melody that cats the world over would adore? He might be a better piano player than you are. But becouse your ears are different and youve been brought up to listen to different things you cant spot his genius.

Because he never plays the same tune twice. LOL

First, I was using music as an example. I don't have enough space or time to cover what the ability to think abstractly lets us accomplish as humans.

Think hard enough and you'll come up with a few on your own.

MaxDB

How do you know? maybe thats how cat music is supposed to be played....
Lets be honest tho, it wasnt a terribly good example was it? Everything is persepective, and from a cats perspective Humans are good for only one thing: Opening tins!
Ive been thinking hard and I cant come up with a single example of why the human brain is special compared to every other brain. We might be able to do certain things better than other animals, but they can do some thing better than us so it evens out eventually. Any opinion that we rule the world is only our opinion, not theirs! Pratchett, Stewart and Cohen in their brilliant Science of Discworld books suggest that the only thing that sets us apart is the ability to tell/make stories(in our heads and about ourselves), but even then its only our environment that does that to us.
We are brought up to do it and its a good predicting tool, which from an evolutionary point of view is very useful. Or has been so far!
Most animals dont, or at least not to the same extent, but they did point out that its not becouse theyre brains aren't capable of it becouse they are, and anyone who's had a pet will realise they pick up the ability very quickly! Its just not part of most creatures environments.

Our brains aint particularly special compared to any other creature. Its that the world we live in requires us to use more parts of it(or just to use them differently), and that drives our world and that in turn drives our thoughts...Let any other animal into the same world/environment and you can see the thought process' adapting!

As far as the physical make up of brains...you're correct. Look at an apes brain and a human brain and they pretty much "look" the same.

That means there must be something else besides the physical make up that sets our brains apart.

There is something meta-physical, the ability to think abstractly, that takes that same slab of tissue and makes the human mind special.

Actually, I am very disappointed that we have been given the gift of abstract thinking and how putting it to good use could solve many of mankinds problems today...but many in power choose to control and destroy others with it instead.

MaxDB

But im not just talking about their physical make up. You have no way of knowing whether abstract thought is limited to humans.

Thats the crux of your argument and youve no proof of it. Unfortunatly for me though an animal can appear to have abstract thoughts I cant prove that theyre, even though they appear to be to me! BUt lots of animals have shown that their mental powers can grow and adapt as their envornment changes. The Science of Discworld example was a Mantis Shrimp called Dougal, who liked shrimps. He was given puzzles of increacing difficulty to get his shrimps, first they'd be in a box, then in a box with an elastic band round it. Each challange was overcome, adn eventualy Dougal was presented with a shrimp with no task to perfom. He took one look at the shrimp, which he could have caught easily, and went back to bed. We cant prove he was thinking "too easy, can't be bothered, can I have a real challange please!?" but thats what his actions would indicate, as if he was then presented with a shrimp in a box he would work out a way to get at it.

If there is even one shred of evidence (And I would submit the above story as proof becouse its easily as strong as the counter argument!) that any other animal is capable of abstract thought even for a moment your whole theory comes tumbling down.

The human mind aint special.

The fact that we can even ponder and debate this is proof enough for me that you're wrong. Animals can learn...that's a fact. Animals can adapt to an environmet or different situations.

Animals may in fact think abstractly. Animals are fascinating creatures. I am saying we are more then just animals. You are saying we are no different.

But I'm talking about the actions and results form abstract thinking...not just day dreaming. I can look around a SEE these actions and results from humans...stories, painting, music, machines, monuments, etc.

I don't see ANY evidence of these same results in the animal world.

MaxDB

So just becouse an animal cant build human things and do human things its not as advanced as a human?
Thats hardly a fair test. They aint got opposable thumbs!

Just becouse they cant have a debate like this in English you assume they incapable of having a debate at all. Come on lets see how good you are, you try and have this debate in a language a dog would understand. Shouldn't be hard as your a human and "special"

Humans are animals with delusions of grandeur.

Believe what you want. I personally don't have to have a debate with a dog to know I'm right.

I SEE the proof all around me.

I see no proof for what you're saying.

Do you really believe animals have debates? LOL

MaxDB

And can you prove animals do not?

Do I really have to? Isn't it kind of obvious? LOL

I like a challenging debate but I'm not going to waste my time with a 5 year old mentality...get real.

If you don't understand by now the point I'm trying to make about this...go discuss it with a pack of animals. Seemingly, they'll tell you just what you want to hear.

MaxDB

I can't hear things think.

I believe what makes the human mind so special is that it is the only mind on the planet that has power. The human mind can think a thought which then can become something tangible. No other creature has that ability. Creatures perhaps can logically think and respond, but everything that we have, except the elements and minerals, of course, started with a thought.

I personally believe that before the Tower of Babel, humans were united in the ability to hear words and each person understood what they meant in exactly the same way. This is contrasted in how we are today in that when someone says a sentence, everybody has their own take on it. It means different things to different people. But back in antiquity, everybody was on the same page in their understanding. I believe they were united in thought, and perhaps could even communicate telepathically. With the wrong motives and evil intent, people could be quite dangerous in their plans united like that and hence, the scattering at the Tower of Babel. A switch was thrown to the off position in the mind which I believe is going to be turned back on.

All of this would be incorporated within the concept of the "mind of Christ;" Christ meaning the anointed one. Those putting on his mind and experiencing regeneration into pure intent, will receive power to become the sons of God or in other words get the switch turned back on, having been trained to use the power to do good in the earth and not evil.

The biggest war on earth is actually an ongoing thing and it is the battle for the mind. Every dictator and despot has done everything they could to get control of mankind's mind. However, history has proven that it is about as possible to get everyone's mind on the same page as it is to herd cats.

there are alot of things about the human body that stuns me!!! the one that intrests me alot is the human brain. the simple things are body does, have you ever really think about your beating heart. and that that simple musle is pumping blood through your body, and if it stopped you could die.
animals have instint, we have reason. simple fact.

The fact is that logically you can never ever prove that humans are the only animal that has ever had a an abstract thought or a debate! We cant possibly know every single thought those creatures have had, and therefore you cant simply assert they have never had these thoughts.

We cant discuss this with a pack of animals becouse we cant speak their language....

ANd when we ask you to prove it, its your assertion, so yes you really have to!

"Lol! Its bleedin obvious" is not an argument.

I think both of us have both. Ive seen cats reason how to get a pork chop from under a red hot grill, and I know after a few beers in a night club instinct is a powerful force for starters it gets you home....
not sure what you have could be called a fact.

when i said we have reason and animal have instinct. what i meant was we have the abiltitly of free will. we do what we think is best. animals do what their body tells them, aka:instinct.
Now i do think that we have some instincts too, but we also have the power of reason.

All we have is the ability to rationalize and think abstractively, but we can empathize and communicate at a higher level than any other known species known on earth. And more brain power. Mind over matter!!

what method do you use to determine what creature has the more powerful brain?

How do you measure abstract thought in other creatures brains? Can you do it in humans? and how do you do it with other creatures that dont speak english?

how do you rate the levels? are these levels your inventions, and how do you apply them to individuals?

Umm, I'm pretty sure the method I use to determine that we have more brain power simply due to the fact that you don't see a dog owning a house, or driving a car, or ruling a country. It's not because we have opposable thumbs you know..

The rest is just basically common sense. You waste your time talking to an animal and see if they can think abstractively.

i dont own a house, drive a car, or rule a country, yet my thoughts are more abstract than most

but you know how to do some math, you can play an instrument, you can use this computer to read random things, and put your 2 integellence cents in it.

Trying to speak a language i don't understand isn't going to tell me what it thinks.

that's why he said go waste your time trying to...

isn't someone making a machine to read animals thoughts are something like that? or is that just the movies? LOL i fogot!!!

Good thing that some of them can learn

http://www.koko.org

Humans arguing that our brains are not superior to animals! Maybe there's more stimulating conversation over at the "dolphin forum".

Hey! Maybe animals can get us humans out of all of the mess the world is in...if only we could speak their language! LOL

Trying to put human characteristics on animals is why we have cartoons.

If this is our educated future, I'm afraid this world his going down the drain...

MaxDB

To me, denying we have something "special" over other animals would be silly. Sure, they may show similar traits, like using logic for problem solving(The cat opening a door), but we move onto an entirely different level. Animals can't save other animals from going extinct. They can't create medicine to cure certain sicknesses. They have to evolve, because they can't change their own environment(Unlike us). They can't communicate in such a complex way, to where they can do things such as creating "sports" with rules. They can't cook their own meals to make it more enjoyable. They can't create philosophy. The list goes on forever. Sure most can be grouped into certain catagories, but it's still shows that we have "something" over other animals.

Another thing is variations in personality. Sure, some pets may have their own personalities, but in general most animals are the same as their species. Humans vary so greatly, it's not even comparable to animals.



To the bold: If they were smart enough, they could figure it out without us even having to tell them, eh? The the rest of your post, I agree.

interesting thread, im sure theres a book around here somewhere, with "DONT PANIC" on the cover that can help with this debate.........

Well the capabilities of the human mind is something that has potential to achieve many feats and such, unlike animals, because of the more complex comprehension and consciousness that humans CAN have. The reason as to that is most likely the fact that they haven't achieved a state where they can truly think freely, without having an oppressive force that has conditioned it for quite some time. This would be known as society and the leaders that have helped structure these ways of life, though it can be argued that the human mind is still young and the human has not matured to understand how to exist harmoniously, since the issues they have are yet to be resolved. A person cannot simply say and think, "I want harmony and peace," and poof it happens. It doesn't work that way, however, it can be a goal to work towards, which will probably be far into the future, if it were to truly happen.
It's strange that people don't really talk about the lessons that humans need to learn in order to achieve that certain requirement for betterment, and for a better way of existence. There are dreams in which people can imagine, smile upon, but they aren't real if it doesn't happen in "reality", there are steps to that path, and it is not likely that change for betterment can happen entirely in a lifetime, it can take generations. So what then?

the fact that we are aware of being aware or in other words, consciousness.

The thing is that nobody can prove either way what thoughts any other creature is having. Just looking at physical actions and outcomes doesnt give it away....after all how much goes on in your head that you never express? Therefore any argument that animals are less special becouse they cant play a musical instrument designed for a human is therefore a bit silly.

That is a fact and it will stay a fact regardless of how much you postulate that common sense says we are intelligent.
Btw Common sense is entirely dependant on culture and upbringing and experience, which is unique to every individual, as a result its not exactly a reliable benchmark to test everything else against!

I really don't have a problem with someone telling me I'm wrong and I love a good debate.

A large majority of the people on this forum do not seem to know the art of debating.

Also People...read the whole thread before posting.

No one said animals are less special because they can't play an instument anywhere in this thread. It was said they are not capable of writing a symphony, writing a novel, painting a masterpiece, etc.

Do you want to argue this point? Telling me that I can't know what animals are thinking so I'm wrong is not a counter point...it is a cop out.

Telling me you have heard several symphonies written by apes or went to an ape art gallery and pointing me to your evidence is the art of debating.

My point is that we have re-shaped our whole environment (Not necessarily for the better) in ways that animals cannot do. Are they just lazy? They don't care? Again...Telling me that I can't know what animals are thinking so I'm wrong is not a counter point...it is a cop out.

Telling me why you believe they COULD do these things but choose not to is a counterpoint. Again...are they lazy? Don't care? Don't you think if they could, they would. If not, why not?

Cause we don't know what they're thinking...COP OUT!

Judging by the responses to this thread, many people here must believe animals are deep thinkers and actually hold debates because they have stated such and since I can't know what animals are thinking ...I'm wrong.

Point me to your evidence that animals DO debate, DO paint, DO write symphonies...prove what YOU believe. That is the art of debating.

Again, tell me why you believe I'm wrong and give me your rationality and why YOU believe animals are deep thinkers and actually hold debates.

I came to this Forum for some deep thinking, stimulating conversation...maybe this isn't the right forum?

MaxDB

Me too.


Well music was your example, my point is that they aint capable of writing a symphony or a novel etc, becouse those are human things and they aint humans!

not saying your wrong, just that without that proof, you've erm...got no proof basically.

Funnily enough there is an ape art gallery(or at least I assume its in a gallery, definatly stuff painted by apes though), and an elephant that paints and signs its paintings. Not like a human does of course but thats becouse its not a human and why should we expect them to do everything the way we do....maybe theyre too clever for that.

How is that special compared to living in harmony with the environment, its just greed!

I dont believe that they do becouse I know what that means and I look for proof instead, and as Ive pointed out becouse we're not mind readers, there isnt any.

AS I said, I dont, Im just pointing out that you cant be proven right and that there are other possibilities no matter how wierd they may seem to you, which from the point of view of evidence are just as valid.

Did you even read the whole post?

Cop out. You are saying my proof is wrong without any counter proof.

Why are they too clever...what are basing that on?

I'm done with this forum.

You guys have fun shooting peoples ideas down with zero counter-evidence. Please do learn the art of debating...you might learn something.

It's like a dog chasing it's tail...going no where. Maybe some of you guys could ask the dog why he's spinning in circles. He's probably deep in thought...contemplating the Universe. LOL

I wish I could say it's been intellectually stimulating but I'm not a liar.

Signed out...for good.

MaxDB

Dude, Im not trying to say your completely wrong, just that theres no proof either way, and no way of getting any.
Im just pointing out alternative possibilities, and we can never be 100% sure which is the right one.