A Hero on the Cross!

And now, pave the way for this hero. Come nearer from all directions,from everywhere. Come in any way you can and strive your utmost, come hurrying and submitting. Approach in order to be taught the lesson of sacrifice,an incomparable lesson. You will say, Weren't all the stories you have previously told lessons of incomparable sacrifice?

Indeed, they were lesson of uncomparable magnificence. Nothing whatsoever can be similar to it.

However, you are now in front of a new master illustrating the art of sacrifice, a figure who, if you miss meeting him, then you have missed a great deal, indeed a great deal. Come to us, all people of faith in every nation and country.Come to us, lovers of exaltedness in every period and era. And you, too,who carry a heavy burden of illusion and you whose belief in creed and religionsis one of falsehood and error. Come with your illusion. Come and see howAllah's religion built men. Come and see what glory, what strength, whatfirmness, what determination, what sacrifice, what loyalty!

To sum up, what extraordinary and amazing greatness has been granted by the belief in truth to its sincere followers.

Can you see the crucified body? It is our lesson today - to all mankind! Indeed, the crucified body in front of you is our subject, our lesson, our master. His name is Khubaib Ibn `Adiy. Remember this name well!

Remember it, sing it, it is an honor for anyone belonging to any religion,to any sect, belonging to any ethnic group and living in any era!

He belonged to the Aws tribe from Al-Madiinah. He belonged to the Ansaar.

Since the day of the Prophet's Hijrah to Al-Madiinah and since the dayof his belief in Allah, Lord of the Worlds, he frequently visited the Prophet (PBUH).

His soul, spirit, and conscience were pure, and his belief was firm. He was described by Hassaan lbn Thaabit, Islam's poet: He looked like a falcon among the Ansaar. Allah endowed him with noble character and good morals."

When the standards of the Battle of Badr were lifted, he was there, a bold warrior and a daring fighter. Among the polytheists whom he killed with his sword during the battle was Al-Haarith Ibn `Aamir Ibn Nawfal.

After the battle was over and the defeated remnants of the Quraish hadreturned to Makkah, the sons of Al-Haarith learned that their father hadbeen killed. They learned the name of his killer very well by heart: KhubaibIbn `Adiy.

The Muslims returned from Badr to Al-Madiinah and persistently built their new community.
Knubaib was a true worshiper, a pious devotee, carrying the nature of a devotee and the longing aspiration of a worshiper. There he turned to worship with the spirit of a passionate lover, praying at night, fasting duringthe day, glorifying Allah, Lord of the Worlds.

One day the Prophet (PBUH) wanted to know the Quraish's secrets so as to be fully aware of the target of their movements and any preparations fora new battle. Therefore, he chose ten of his Companions, among whom was Khubaib, and Aasim lbn Thaabit as leader.

The expedition set off towards its destination until they reached a place between `Asafaan and Makkah. News of them reached an area of Hudhail called Bani Hayaan. They hastened to them with 100 of their most skillful spearmen. They set out to pursue them and to follow their tracks.

They almost lost them but for the fact that one of them found some discarded date pits on the sand.

He picked them up and, with the amazing skill Arabs were famous for, glanced at them, then shouted loudly so that the others could hear him, "They are date pits from Yathrib 1 . Let's follow them and they will surely guide us. They followed the discarded date pits until they could see in the distance what they were searching for.

`Aasim, the expedition's leader, felt that they were being chased, so he ordered his companions to mount the high peak of a mountain. The 100 spearmen approached and surrounded the foot of the mountain and besieged them thoroughly.

They asked them to surrender themselves after giving them their word not to hurt them. The ten turned to their leader, Aasim Ibn Thaabit Al-Ansaariy (May Allah be pleased with them all), and waited for his command. He then said, As for me, by Allah, I will never let myself fall into the protection of a polytheist. May Allah inform our Prophet about us."

The spearmen then began to throw their spears at them. Their leader Aasim was wounded and died as a martyr. In the same way seven others were wounded and died as martyrs.

The rest were then called and promised that they would be safe if theycame down. The three descended, Khubaib and his two friends. The spearmenapproached Khubaib and his companion, Zaid Ibn Ad-Dithinnah, and tied themup. Their third one recognized the beginning of their deceipts, so he decidedto die there where `Aasim and his companions had fallen. He died where hewished. That is how some of the greatest, most faithful, most loyal to Allahand his Prophet (PBUH), and most sincere believers passed away. Khubaib andZaid tried to untie themselves, but they were fled very thoroughly and tightly.

The deceptive spearmen took them to Makkah where they sold them to thepolytheists. The name of Khubaib reached everyone's ear. The sons of Al-HaarithIbn Aamir, who had been killed in Badr, remembered his name very well andwere moved by spite and hatred. They hurried to buy him. Most of the inhabitantsof Makkah, who had lost their fathers and leaders in the Battle of Badr,competed in purchasing him in order to take revenge. They enjoined each otherto take revenge on him and commenced to prepare him for a fate to satisfytheir desire for revenge, not directed at him, as such, but at all the Muslims.

Some other people took Khubaib's companion Zaid Ibn Ad- Dithinnah and set out to torture him severely.

Khubaib submitted his heart, his whole life, and destiny to Allah, Lordof the Worlds. He turned to His worship with a firm soul, unruffled and fearless, accompanied by a divine tranquility. Even hard, solid mountain rocks andterror itself might melt and simply vanish due to it.

Allah was with him, and he was with Allah. Allah's hand was over him, and he could almost feel His fingers within his chest.

One day, one of Al-Haarith's daughters entered where he was kept as a captive at Al-Haarith's house. She quickly hurried out, calling the people to see an unbelievable thing! `By Allah, I saw him holding a big bunch of grapes, eating from it while being fettered with iron chains - at a time when there isn't a single grape in Makkah. I can't think of it except as being a blessing from Allah!"

Indeed, it was a blessing given by Allah to His virtuous worshiper, asHe gave to Maryam (Mary, mother of Jesus) daughter of `Imraan before: "Whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary he found her furnished with provision, he said,"O Mary from where did you get this?" She said. "It is from GOD, surely GODprovides who He pleases without measure" (3 : 37).

The polytheists brought him the news of the death of his companion ZaidIbn Ad-Dithinnah (May Allah be pleased with him). They hoped thereby to break down his nerves. However, they did not know that Allah, the Most Merciful, had invited him into His hospitality, blessing him with divine tranquility and mercy.

They set Out to bargain with him over his faith, promising to save hislife if he disbelieved in Muhammad and his Lord, but they were like childrentrying to catch the sun by a mere arrow-shot.

Indeed, Khubaib's faith was like the sun in its strength, flame, light,and far-reachedness. He shed light upon those seeking light and warmed thoseseeking warmth, but the one who approached him to challenge him would beburned and destroyed.

When they lost hope of reaching their desire, they took the hero to face his destiny. They took him to a place called At- Tan'iim, where he wouldbe killed.

As soon as they reached this place, Khubaib asked them to allow him topray two rak'ahs. They allowed him with the hope that he would make up hismind to announce his surrender and disbelief in Allah, His Messenger andHis religion.

Solemnly, peacefully and humbly Khubaib prayed two rak'ahs.

He felt the sweetness of faith within his soul, so that he wished thathe could keep on praying and praying. However, he turned toward his killersand said to them, "By Allah, were it not for your thinking that I'm afraidof death, I would have continued praying." Then he lifted his hands towardsthe sky and said, "O Allah! Count them one by one and then perish them all!"Then he scanned their faces intently and set out singing:

When I am being martyred as a Muslim,
I do not care in what way I receive my death
For Allah's sake.
If He wishes,
He will bless the cut limbs.


It was perhaps the first time in Arab history to crucify a man then kill him on the cross. They had prepared out of palm tree trunks a huge crosson which they fixed Khubaib, his limbs tied tightly. The polytheists gathered in obvious glee at his suffering while spearmen prepared their lances.

All that cruelty was intentionally performed slowly in front of the crucified hero. He did not close his eyes, and amazing tranquility beamed from his face.Then spears began to skirmish and swords to tear his flesh into pieces.

One of the Quraish leaders approached him saying, `Would you like Muhammad to be in your place and you be healthy and secure among your kin?"

Only then did Khubaib burst like a thunderstorm, shouting to his killers, "By Allah, I woud not like to be among my relatives and sons enjoying all the world's health and well-being while even a tiny thorn hurts the Prophet."

They were the same great words spoken by Zaid Ibn Ad Dithinnah when hewas being killed! The same amazing, dazzling strong words Zaid said one daybefore they were said by Khubaib. At that, Abu Sufyaan, who had not yet embraced Islam, had to shake his head and say astonished, "By Allah! I've never seen anybody love somebody else the way Muhammad's companions love Muhammad."

Khubaib's words were so provocative that the spears and swords began to tear the hero's body to pieces, attacking it with complete madness and cruelty.

Not far away from the scene, birds and buzzards were flying around as if waiting for the butchers to end their task and leave the spot so that they could approach the fresh dead body to have a delicious meal. However, soon they called to one another and gathered, and their beaks moved as if whispering and talking. Suddenly they flew away in the sky, far, far away. They smelled by their instinct the scent of a pious, repentant man which spread from his crucified body, so they were ashamed to approach him or to hurt him. The flockof birds flew away, just and pure, into the vastness of space.

The group of malicious polytheists returned to their dens in Makkah while the dead body of the martyr stayed there, guarded by a group of Quraishispearmen.

When they were lifting Khubaib onto the palm trunk cross and tying himfirmly, Khubaib turned his face towards the sky asking his Ever MagnificentLord, "Allah! We fulfilled the mission of Your Messenger. Inform him in theearly morning of what is happening to us.

Allah responded to his prayer. while he was in Al-Madiinah, the Prophet(PBUH) was filled with a strong feeling that his Companions were facing asevere trial, and he could almost see the crucified dead body of one of them.

Immediately the Prophet (PBUH) sent for Al-Miqdaad lbn `Amr and Az-Zubair lbn Al-'Awaam.

They mounted their horses and set off to cross the land rapidly. Allahguided them to their desired destination. They lowered Khubaib's body toa pure spot of ground waiting to shelter him under its moist soil.

No one knows to this day where Khubaib's grave lies. May be that is better and more respectable for him so that he remains in history's memory and in the conscience of life a hero, a hero on the cross.

source:http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=6

That was nice! Oooh my popcorn is done. Let me get it during intermission and then could you please tell me the story of Ali Babba and the forty thieves? I like that story better!

Ali Baba is a fictive story , i am not interested in fiction ,

Here's the thing.

You tell children certain stories. You tell young people certain stories. You tell soldiers certain stories. All the while to either entertain, teach, or psychologically condition in preparation for some task.

In the case of soldiers- you really have to use strong conditioning to make them overcome fear. These islamic stories are just more of that. You want warriors? You condition them with stuff like this, from the earliest years in life.

It's like brainwashing.

Fror AbdullahS.
Sebastian was a man of great faith, a good christian man, and was born in Narbonne, and after taught and endoctrined in the city of Milan, and was so well beloved of Diocletian and Maximian, emperors of Rome, that they made him master and duke of their meiny and power, and always would have him in their presence. And he was always with them in habit of a knight, and was girded with a girdle of gold above like as was used. And all this did he not for jollity, ne for cause that he dreaded death, or to die for the love of Jesu Christ, but he did it for to comfort the christian men in their belief when they were in distress for to reny the faith for dread of tormenting their body.
It happed that two brethren german, very christian men and noble of lineage named Marcus and Marcellianus, were taken and constrained by the emperor for to worship and do sacrifice unto the idols, and there was given to them thirty days to be in prison without to receive death for their christian faith, within which time they might counsel and advise themselves whether they would do sacrifice to the idols or to leave, and their friends were suffered in this time of respite to come to them in prison, for to entreat and revoke them from their faith for to save their lives. Then came their parents and friends to them, and began to say: Whence cometh this hardness of heart that ye despise the old age of your father and mother which be now old? Ye get unto them new sorrows, the great pain that they had in your birth was not so great as the sorrow that they have now, and the sorrow that your mother that she had; but she had understood that which S. Sebastian had said and had seen the light about him, and she fell down to his feet, and by signs of her hands made prayers to him. And after when S. Sebastian knew that she had lost her speech, anon he said to her: If I be the servant of Jesu Christ and if all that I have said be true, then I pray him that he will render to thee thy speech again that opened the mouth of Zacharias the prophet. And anon escried this woman much high, and said: The word that thou hast said is very true, and blessed be thou and the word of thy mouth, and blessed be all they that by thee believe in Jesu Christ the son of God, for I have seen certainly seven angels tofore thee holding a book, in which was written all that which thou hast said, and cursed be they that believe thee not.

And Nicostratus husband of this woman, and the father and mother, and all the friends of Marcellianus and Marcus received the christian faith and were all baptized by Polycarpus the priest unto the number of seventy-eight persons, men, women, and children. And ten days during they abode together in orisons and prayers, and thanked God of his benefits. Among them was Tranquillinus, father unto the holy martyrs aforesaid, which had eleven year during, the gout in his feet and hands, and as soon as Polycarp had baptized him he became as whole and sound in his feet and hands as a child.

After the ten days, Agrestin and Chromatius, provosts of Rome, made Tranquillinus their father to come tofore them, and demanded of him how his sons were advised and counselled, and he answered: Much well did ye when ye gave to them respite, for in the meantime they that should have died have found life and joy. And the provost supposed that his sons had been turned, and said: To-morn I shall see how thy sons shall make sacrifice to the idols, by whom thou and they may dwell in peace. And Tranquillinus said: Gentle man, if thou wilt justly adore and work about me and my sons thou shalt find that the name of christian men is of great virtue. And the provost said: Tranquillinus, art thou wood? And he answered: I have been out of my wit, but as soon as I believed in Jesu Christ I received health of body and of soul. The provost said: I see well that the respite of thy sons hath brought thee in error. Tranquillinus said: Know you of what works come error? The provost bade him say, and he said: The first error is to leave the way of life and go by the way of death for to dispute that men which be dead for to be gods, and to adore their images, made of wood or of stone. The provost said: Then they be no gods that we adore? Tranquillinus said: It is read in our books what men they were that ye adore for gods, how evil they lived, and how mechantly they died. Saturnus whom ye worship for god was lord of Crete, and ate the flesh of his children, how? is not he one of your gods? And Jupiter his son, whom ye adore, which slew his father, and took his sister to his wife, what evil was this? how art thou in great error that adorest this cursed man, and sayest to the image of stone: Thou art my god, and to the stock of tree: Help me. The provost said: If there be none but one God invisible that ye adore, wherefore then adore ye Jesu Christ whom the Jews crucified? Tranquillinus answered: If thou knewest of a ring of gold in which were a precious stone, Iying in the mire of a valley, thou wouldst send thy servants for to take up this ring and if they might not lift it up, thou wouldst unclothe thyself of thy clothes of silk and do on a coarse coat and wouldst help to take up this ring and make a great feast. The provost said: Wherefore hast thou put forth this proposition now? Tranquillinus answered: For to show to thee that we adore one only God. The provost said: What understandest thou by this ring? Tranquillinus said. the gold of the ring is the body human, and the precious stone signifieth the soul which is enclosed in the body, the body and the soul make a man, like as the gold and the precious stone make a ring, and much more precious is the man to Jesu Christ than the ring is to thee. Thou sendest thy servants for to take up this ring out of the dirt or mire, and they may not. Thus sent God into this world the prophets for to draw the human lineage out of the ordure of sins, and they might not do it. And like as thou shouldst leave thy rich clothes and clothe thee with a coarse coat, and wouldst descend into the privy, and put thy hands into foul ordure to take up the ring, right so the majesty of God hid the light of his divinity by a carnal vestment, which he took of our nature human, and clad him therewith and descended from heaven, and came here beneath into the privy of this world, and put his hands in the ordure of our miseries in suffering hunger and thirst, and took us up out of the filth and washed us from our sins by the water of baptism. And thus he which despiseth thee because thou shouldst descend in a foul habit to take up the ring, thou mightest well put him to death. Thus all they that reny or despise Jesu Christ because he humbled himself for to save man, may in no wise escape from the death of hell. The provost said: I see well that these be but fables; thou hast taken respite for thy sons, knowest thou not well that the emperor our lord is cruel against christian men? Tranquillinus said: It is folly to doubt more human puissance than the puissance divine, they that be cruel against us may well torment our bodies but they may not take from our heart Jesu Christ. Then the provost put Tranquillinus in the hands of the sergeants saying: Show to me the medicine by which thou art healed of thy gout, and I shall give to thee gold without number. Tranquillinus said: Know thou that much evil shall come to them that sell and buy the grace of God, but if thou wilt be whole of the malady of the gout, believe in Jesu Christ and thou shalt be whole as I am. The provost said: Bring him to me that hath healed thee. Tranquillinus went to Polycarp and said to him all this, and brought him with S. Sebastian unto the provost and informed him in the faith, and he prayed them that he might have his health, and S. Sebastian said that he should first reny his idols and give him licence to break them, and then he should have his health. Then Chromatius the provost said that his servants should break them . S. Sebastian said: They be afeared and dare not break them, and if the fiends hurt any of them by any occasion, the misbelievers would say that they were hurt because they brake their gods.

And then Polycarp and S. Sebastian destroyed more than two hundred idols. Then said they to the provost: Why hast thou not received the health whilst we brake the idols? Thou keepest yet thy misbelief or else keepest yet some idols. Then he showed them a chamber which was light as had been of stars, whereupon his father had dispended two hundred pods of gold, by which he knew things for to come. Then said S. Sebastian: As long as thou keepest this whole thou mayst never have health, and then he agreed it should be broken. Tiburtius, his son, which was a noble young man, said plainly that so noble a work should not be destroyed: How well I will not be against my father's health, this will I well, that there be ordained two furnaces of fire burning, and then I will that ye destroy this work, and if my father have his health I shall be content, and if he receive not his health, then I will that ye two shall be burnt in these two furnaces of fire all quick. And S. Sebastian said: Be it as thou hast said.

And forthwith they went and brake the chamber. And in the meanwhile the angel of our Lord appeared to the provost and said his health was given to him, and anon he was all whole, and ran after him for to have kissed his feet, but he denied him for he had not received baptism. And then he and Tiburtius his son with one thousand four hundred of their family were baptized.

Then Zoe was taken of the miscreants and tormented so long that she gave up the spirit. And when Tranquillinus heard that, he came forth and said: Alas! why live we so long? Women go tofore us to the crown of martyrdom; and within a few days after he was stoned to death. And Tiburtius was commanded that he should go barefoot upon burning coals or else do sacrifice to the idols, and then he made the sign of the cross upon the coals and went on them barefoot, and he said: Me thinketh I go upon rose flowers in the name of our Lord Jesu Christ. To whom Fabian the provost said: It is not unknown to us that your Jesu Christ is a teacher of sorcery.

interesting story , never heard of it before , is this from a Mormon perspective

Saint sebastian is a canonised christian saint. a martyr. Died circa 247 a.d. As far as i'm aware he has absolutely nothing to do with the mormons. i could be wrong though.

Abdullah-

The article continues-

And Tiburtius was commanded that he should go barefoot upon burning coals or else do sacrifice to the idols, and then he made the sign of the cross upon the coals and went on them barefoot, and he said: Me thinketh I go upon rose flowers in the name of our Lord Jesu Christ. To whom Fabian the provost said: It is not unknown to us that your Jesu Christ is a teacher of sorcery.

To whom Tiburtius said: Hold thy peace thou cursed wretch, for thou art not worthy to name so worthy, so holy and so sweet a name. Then the provost was wroth and commanded to smite off his head, and so he was martyred. And then Marcellianus and Marcus were sore tormented and bound to a pillar, and as they were so bound they said: Lo! how good and joyful it is brethren to dwell together. To whom the provost said: Ye wretches, do away your madness and deliver yourselves, and they said: We were never so well fed, we would that thou wouldest let us stand here till that the spirits should depart out of our bodies. And then the provost commanded that they should be pierced through the body with spears, and so they fulfilled their martyrdom.

After this Saint Sebastian was acccused to the emperor that he was christian, wherefore Diocletian, the emperor of Rome, made him come tofore him, and said to him: I have always loved thee well, and have made thee master of my palace; how then hast thou been christian privily against my health, and in despite of our gods? Saint Sebastian said: Always I have worshipped Jesu Christ for thy health and for the state of Rome, and I think for to pray and demand help of the idols of stone is a great folly.

Of course, all this is well and good. Sebastian was a man who lived until he "crossed" the ways of Rome. As a member of the Praetorian Guard, there were creeds and standards, and he, apparently, fell out of favor with those.

Who wouldn't? Who in their right mind engages in animal sacrifice, or any such nonsense? By the same token, the stories of Sebastian's magic aura also must be questioned.

In any regard, in Rome, men lived, and men died. That was life.

I found a Wiki entry on Sebastion-

"According to Sebastian's fifth-century Acta , still attributed to Ambrose by the seventeenth-century hagiographer Jean Bolland and the briefer account in Legenda Aurea which is followed here, he was a man of Gallia Narbonensis who was taught in Milan and appointed as a captain of the Praetorian Guard under Diocletian and Maximian unaware that he was a Christian. Sebastian was reportedly known for having encouraged in their faith two Christian prisoners due for martyrdom, who were bewailed and entreated by their family to forswear Christ and offer token sacrifice.

His aura cured a woman of her muteness, and the miracle instantly converted seventy-eight people. The father of the two prisoners having been cured of gout was confronted by the provost, who was convinced to break the idols. Diocletian reproached Sebastian for his supposed betrayal, and "he commanded him to be led to the field and there to be bounden to a stake for to be shot at. And the archers shot at him till he was as full of arrows as an urchin is full of pricks and thus left him there for dead. Miraculously, the arrows did not kill him.

The widow of St. Castulus went to retrieve his body to bury it, and found he was still alive. She brought him back to her house and nursed him back to health. The other residents of the house doubted he was a Christian. One of those people was a girl who was deaf and blind. Sebastian asked her "Do you wish to be with God?" he then made the sign of the Cross on her head and she then said "Yes", regaining at the same time her sight.

Sebastian then stood on a step and harangued Diocletian as he passed by; the emperor had him beaten to death and his body thrown in a privy. But in an apparition Sebastian told a Christian widow where they might find his body undefiled and bury it "at the catacombs by the apostles."


Oh, and the paintings commisioned by the Church really go the distance to "educate" people.




Long Live The Renaissance!!!

thanks for the interesting posts

Thank you, Abdullah.

I take it then, you are a kind person. Like you, I believe there is harmony when there is an order to life.

I believe in having standards. I believe there is a natural goodness, a natural moral quality. And, to not be that way, means something is wrong.

On the outside, I prefer logical thought, over feelings or intuition. On the inside, there is a small voice of intuitive quality. My mother is very intuitive, and that is the only indication I have ever seen that life might connect to a non-material purpose.

Words alone do not do it for me. I need to see examples of goodness to know there is something behind the scriptures of this world.

In the West, we have what is called "tough-love". It usually means a parent enforces a childs good behavior with assuredness. The idea is not to always restrain the child. Only temporarily, until they become accepting of better ways.

As adults, persons are responsible for their own behavior. They can not break the law- i.e. infringe on the rights or personal well-being of others. They are free to express themselves, as long as it is rational and morally descent.

It is the concept of natural goodness, that all are born with, and encouraged to express. To bring out their greatness, that it may contribute to the betterment of this world.

This way also allows for freedom of law abiding religious practice, of whatever faith. However, smaller nations of less plurality often prefer a dominate faith, as compared to the United States.

Thank you.

all humans can live in harmony alongside eachother , as long as we are open minded , and tolerant towards eachother there will be a society of understanding and harmony , but respect must come from both sides , as we face in todays society mostly respect comes from one side and the other sides tries to divide , our biggest enemy is this world is Satan who puts hatred in mens heart , but my personal belief is that if we show respect and share it with others it might influence others , and change their attitude , we must never generalize eachother , but always try to see the goodness in people , Islam is totally against hatred but teaches tolerance and peaceful coexistence with the other religions ,history shows us many different sides of the human character , i think tolerance and a good understanding of eachothers faith will change a lot , because the biggest enemy of the intellect is ignorance , peace all

Abdullah,

Respect is a key word, and it is worth commenting on. It seems that some people stop respecting others for abstract reasons- reasons that have no basis in hard reality.

For example- many centuries ago, the Catholic Church was having internal power struggles, along with the rulers of Europe. Then, the Protestant Reformation occured, with non-latin Bibles being published in Belgium and sold throughout Europe. Since this empowered the common man with education, and further threatened the Church's dominance over individual lives, it became illegal to publish native language Bibles or possess them.

Also, many people were forced through brutal supression to follow the Catholic belief system.

This is just an example of what goes wrong when a religion and the government are officially connected.

In the West, we try to elect our own chosen representatives, who are not allowed to favor a particular creed, over another. The laws judge men as men, not as followers of a creed. A rule of law, not of men.

A man can commit a crime, and face penalty of the legal system- not at the hand of outsiders. Also, outsiders can not trump up accusations based soley on difference of creed or religion. Vigilantiasm or terror or non-legal revenge is understood by all to be verbotten. In America, we try _not_ to have Catholics versus Protestants; or secularists versus religious groups.

We encourage that all respect each other, and respect the rule of law.

We also have found that that life in America is expensive, without enough domestic oil. So, men and women must both recieve education and enter the workplace. In fact, most new businesses in America are started by women. Unfortunately, few new businesses succeed. Those new businesses that do succeed show that women are highly capable, creative, and talented. They receive much respect.

And, life in the West is fast-paced. There is little time to have more fashion-wear, like veils, if you know what I mean. For example, a veiled woman driving a car would be a dangerous proposition. Women police officers wearing a veil would be at risk in the course of their duties. Women airline pilots would put many passengers at risk, if they had to cover up while flying an airplane.

I can understand keeping sand and grit out of one's eyes and mouth, and how much a head cover would help, in that type situation.

But, not in the modern West, where few live in the desert.

Take care.

if you refer to the Hijaab(veil in english) first of all it doesnt harm any society to see a women wearing a veil , people accept for example , Caps , Hats , turbans and even the veil is accepted and respected by most westerners , the west according to its civilians is very tolerant towards other religions , philosophies and ways of life , the west accepted the Turbans of the Sikh religion , the west accepted the Orthodox jewish dress wich also contains covering the hair , the west accepted its nuns , and even many western women wear a sort of veil as fashion , so i totally dont agree with your statement , that the veil(hijaab) will not help/work in the west , also your comparison desert-veil is not correct , of course anybody that travels through the desert has to cover its face both men and women , but the muslim women wear it because its a religious obligation ,

* Islam requires both men and women to be modest not only in behavior but in dress. Some Muslim women wear modest dress, or hijab, that covers most of the head and body.

*Sikhs—followers of Sikhism, a religion from India—also keep their heads covered. Sikh men wrap their heads in cotton turbans, while Sikh women may wear turbans or headscarves.

*Most Hasidic Jewish men wear payos, curled forelocks, and tzitzit, fringed shawls, both of which were worn by some ancient Israelites. Jewish men of all backgrounds may wear yarmulkes (skullcaps).(orthodox jews cover their hair most of the day)

*Plain people” such as the Amish and Mennonites dress in simple clothing that reflects a devotion to traditional ways. Men often wear plain hats and long coats, and women wear simple dresses and aprons.(sometimes veils)

all religions can live together , we have to respect eachothers belief system wich is also stated in the western consitutions (dutch constitution gives a person freedom to choose his religion , freedom to practice his religion etc etc, if people are simplistic and dont accept eachother then they become a problem in the society not the women/men that covers his head and tries to coexist and just practices his religion , anyway i respect everybody his opinion , peace and take care

You might, and I might. But it is clear that the gist of Islam has not nor will not. My family was slaughtered in the field of blackbirds in serbia by the Muslim invaders. Nice religion!

Sorry to hear that. My family was slaughtered by serb invaders in bosnia during 1992 and 1995.
More than 200 close members of my family ( oncles, aunts, thir children, cousins - in this case mostly females ) were killed by serbian neighbours turned soldiers in the name of the orthodox church.
More then 300 members of my family were killed in Srebrenica ( mostly men and teen age boys ) in 1995 - were the total amount killed was around ( and serbia confessed it ) 8000 - in only on day.
Slaughtered like animals in the name of the serbian orthodox church. Truly, a nice religion.

In your case, the fight on the field of the blackbirds ( Kosovo Polje ) hapened in 1389, 700 hundred years ago. And it was not done by muslims but by the ottoman empire ( turks ) who happend to be muslims.

Let us see. You remeber a lost battle ( in serbian mythology they acctually believe they won and as such celebrate it ( sick ) ) that happpend 700 years ago and you theach your kids at home and in school how barbaric muslims are, but you try to denie and hyde what serbs did to muslim and croat women and children just a few years ago????

Abdullah and everyone else-

I appologize for bringing up the subject, as it was not my intention to inflame others.

Abdullah is right to have his beliefs and convey them. My point was more that restricting vision or peripheral accuity is a safety hazzard in many situations. That goes for hair, as well.

I recently sent a message of congratulations to a fine singing choir in Croatia, for whom I have the highest regard. They have worked with an american women's choir, Voices From The Heart, as well as the American Chamber of Commerce in Croatia to raise money for landmine removal in Croatia.

Being an American, I only know the basic reasons for those wars. But, I can appreciate that it was nothing to be taken lightly.

Thank you. And, I do think that in some ways, a scarf can be aesthetically appealing. But, it perhaps should be a matter of choice for those who are of another belief or non-belief.

many friends of mine , were slaughtered , their women were raped , pregnant women their chests were cut open with knifes , old men their throats were cut , young boys were executed all done by civilized christian serbs ,

You know, reading all about slaughter and the restrictions placed upon people in all different religions, I am just glad I belong to no religion!

Evil men bear rotten fruits and good men bear good fruits both do not require religion to accomplish what their hearts desire. An excuse is what an evil man consoles his evil heart with, and religion and politics are handy excuses.
Irish

Correct.

That's way alot! Jeez

Dam Irish, how do you manage to make so much sense with so few words...