Sky wants to specifically discuss Gordon Cooper's stories, and I'm game.

Cooper told a lot of wondrous stories -- including how he relayed a telepathic warning from space aliens to NASA about a fatal design flaw in the space shuttle. Sadly, the sketch the space aliens transmitted seems to have gotten 'lost' before Cooper could put it into his book.

It's really sad they way his space career disintegrated in the late 1960s, leading to him quitting in anger when he didn't get the moon flight he thought was his due, and how he spent the next twenty years as naive front man for a serious of technical con artists, using his fame to persuade investors, retirees, struggling communities, and others (including all of his own money) to buy into projects that all -- every one of them -- failed [often involving the principals going to jail]. Millions of dollars, literally, sucked into oblivion because too many people had too high an opinion of Cooper's judgment.

Sad. And a story not widely told, mostly out of sympathy. I'm more sympathetic to the innocent marks who went unwarned, and went bankrupt as a result.

The fake quote that Cooper was denouncing was on a toy sold for CE3K movie publicity, not the Ferrando 'tape', which follows:

CE3K Alien Figure:
"Intelligent beings from other planets regularly visit our world in an effort to enter into contact with us. NASA and the American government know this and possess a great deal of evidence. Nevertheless, they remain silent in order not to alarm people. I am dedicated to forcing the authorities to end their silence."

Ferrando 'taped interview'
http://www.beyondweird.com/ufos/Astronaut_...ts_On_UFOs.html
http://www.skepticfiles.org/moretext/apollo.htm
http://www.unexplainable.net/artman/publis...icle_2692.shtml
etc etc
"For many years I have lived with a secret, in a secrecy imposed on all specialists in astronautics. I can now reveal that every day, in the USA, our radar instruments capture objects of form and composition unknown to us. And there are thousands of witness reports and a quantity of documents to prove this, but nobody wants to make them public.

Why? Because authority is afraid that people may think of God knows what kind of horrible invaders. So the password still is: We have to avoid panic by all means."

"I was furthermore a witness to an extraordinary phenomenon, here on this planet Earth. It happened a few months ago in Florida. There I saw with my own eyes a defined area of ground being consumed by flames, with four indentions left by a flying object which had descended in the middle of a field. Beings had left the craft (there were other traces to prove this). They seemed to have studied topography, they had collected soil samples and, eventually, they returned to where they had come from, disappearing at enormous speed...I happen to know that authority did just about everything to keep this incident from the press and TV, in fear of a panicky reaction from the public."

So I do NOT have a comment from Cooper denouncing the Ferrando quote -- I can't recall even hearing about that quote until years after our correspondence ended.

My conclusion that the Ferrando tape is bogus is mainly based on the detail of the landing Cooper is supoosed to have witnessed, an impressive UFO encounter that somehow got completely overlooked in 'Leap of Faith', Cooper's own autobiography.

Plus this "Ferrando" character never appears anywhere else in ufology, and there is no original citation, and of course, the alleged 'tape' is nowhere to be seen (or heard).

But, what does that have to do with what Astronaut Gordon Cooper has stated about his UFO experiences? He is an American hero!

There are many commercial and military pilots around the globe who have also stated what Astronaut Gordon Cooper already has. What it is, you are attacking Cooper in order to imply that UFO believers have a mental imbalance, but that doesn't reflect reality.

I can pull out some comments made by some well known UFO debunkers that are clearly a form of comic relief.

Focus, Sky. focus.

Which UFO experience are you talking about?

1. The fleets of high-flying UFOs he chased over Germany in 1951?

2. The UFO landing at Edwards AFB in 1957 he says he witnessed?

3. The UFO he encountered during his Mercury-9 space flight in 1963?

4. The UFO landing in Florida he witnessed, that left four burning indentations in the ground, as recounted on the taped interview by J. L. Ferrando?

5. The telepathic message from space aliens about a fatal design flaw in the space shuttle, that Cooper reports he transmitted to associates at NASA and thus saved the space shuttle program.

6. Other?

Sky, which of these stories do you think are legit, and which bogus?

Another question, Sky. Since Cooper is 'an American Hero', does this tell you that everything he says and writes is absolutely accurate and should not -- need not -- be investigated for verification? Are you saying that in some cases, a single witness is all that you require to establish beyond doubt the authenticity of an event?

Here's a specific technical story from Cooper's book that can be checked against known science and technology, and other witnesses. It shares several narrative features with directly UFO-related stories that Cooper has also told.

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenom...ned_000929.html

Is there anyone who really believes that a handheld camera inside a Gemini cabin can get pictures from orbit on which license plates can be read?

We're not talking about the Hubble Space Telescope or its NSA cousins of the 1980s and 1990s here -- This is 1965, a handheld camera in the lap of an astronaut. Can anyone figure out several technological issues that make license-plate-clarity from a Gemini manned spaceship simply impossible?


Then we can speculate on why Cooper would tell such a story, and for whose benefit?

I'm a little surprised nobody seems interested in this massive coverup.

For propaganda purposes, information like this really must be kept from the public, I guess.

See if ANY of the UFO propaganda websites out there even allude to it?

Any SINGLE one of them?

I know Cooper has been open in interviews and makes mention of his UFO experience.
Armstrong and Aldrin havent stated anything on tape (Buzz indicates that the "UFO" could have been come panel debris and the story had been stretched according to wiki, and there is no moon cities).

I'm skeptical on John Leer, I've seen these moon pictures that he provides and there is a real stretch of an imagination to see what he sees in the moon photos.

Are there more "taped" conversations with Astronauts that we can see? (youtube?)

All of his known UFO experiences. I have added the link to Space.Com as one reference.

wait-he said he got a message from space aliens?

[twlight themes plays]

"Area 51 and Gordon Cooper's 'Confiscated Camera'
By Jim Oberg
Special to SPACE.com
posted: 11:34 am ET
29 September 2000"

Why am I not suprised!



Cooper's experience relates to thousands of other UFO case files of highly experienced military and commercial pilots around the globe.

Coopers F-86 facility Encounter (Youtube)

Edit added:
Buzz Explains on Larry King (Youtube)

And, UFOs have made their appearances over the Edwards AFB area before.

http://www.nuforc.org/Muroc.html

You mean all the ones I listed?

Does that include the Mercury-9 space UFO I listed.

do you think that is a credible story?

Why can't you answer?

That's the theme of this thread.

Stay on theme, or go play in your own sandbox somewhere else.

But whenever I try to focus attention on investigation to any specific event, you always seem
to reply, "Well, there are hundreds of others!!"

Nice dodge. Intellectually bankrupt, but apparently, around here, effective.

Want to discuss the Edwards sighting?

Here's a teaser: that case was discussed in 1968 by James McDonald in his congressional testimony. It is a Blue Book event, was researched, and filed in the Blue Book archives. The records -- and photos -- are still there and accessible by any investigator. The young officer in 1957 who wrote up the report, per AF regs, was Lt. Hubert Davis, whom I have interviewed, along with Cooper's supervisor in 1957.

Neither McDonald, not Davis, nor the witnesses Gettys (I have letters from him) and Bittick, ever seem to mention 'Gordon Cooper' as taking part in the incident. Cooper's name appears nowhere on the records of this incident.

Thirty years later, he remembers he was involved. What are various explanations for this, so you suppose?

I'm still trying to figure out who is for Gordon Cooper and who is against in this argument.

Simple question, Sky.

Cooper claims he took pictures with a handheld camera from inside Gemini-5,
that you could read license plates on, from cars on the ground.

Doesn't that sound a MITE exaggerated to you?

Do you think that is even physically possible, and do you think
that Cooper actually took and saw such pictures?

This is technology, checkable, verifiable technology. Go on,
tell us, how good is your comprehension of such technology?

Come on and answer. Surprise me.

It is, and I have seen actual spy photographs from an early satellite and they were very impressive.



Not license plates with that kind of camera.

Thanks, Sky.

Actually, probably not license plates with ANY kind of space-based camera, but pretty good views -- in later years, down to half meter resolution, even tenth meter resolution with repeated passes and post-processing.


But not handheld, and not in 1965.

So I propose that we realize that Cooper, who enjoyed talking to audiences and entertaining them -- it was a generous, kindly instinct -- could on occasion 'stretch the truth' to make his listeners happy. Especially with UFO audiences, what's the problem with that? It's what they wanted.

http://www.nicap.org/ufoe/section_5.htm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4398747992022736462

Well, I think I'm FOR figuring out how much of Cooper's stories -- or stories attributed to him by others -- are reliable indicators of actual events.

It's not as simple as saying he's a HERO and everything he says is Gospel -- or that he's a UFO nut and everything he says is fantasy.

It's somewhere in between -- but exactly where -- needs an investigation, not knee-jerk jusgments either way.

So i investigated (nobody else ever did) and I'm happy to discuss my results.

Also, we may ask, WHY did nobody else ever investigate any of his stories, but just use them as-is for propaganda?

Hey now! Don't make sweeping generalizations like that. Actually, if you look back, you'll see there are actually many folks that don't fall that bologna.

That's a prime example of the problem, and you alluded to it earlier I believe. There is NO staying on topic, or on point with some posters. You are discussing ONE specific case, individual, example, and SOME people will commence to tossing data (often fuzzy) and thousands upon thousands of similar cases or eyewitnesses at you to diffuse the point.

We have MORE evidence that ghosts exist. Does anyone else see the irony there? Proof of the paranormal thanks to knuckleheads and NON-scientists with off-the-shelf equipment, yet no where near as good evidence of UFO's with all these so called scientists hot on the case!

And the relevance of this section on pilot sightings to the Cooper stories is -- exactly what?

Are you saying that Cooper did see UFOs while in FLIGHT on Mercury-9?

I am justly rebuked, and concede the point.

No just reference to other sightings by professional pilots.
I thought you wanted history on the "hundreds of cases" ....if i missed the point apologies....in my defence i'm seriously hungover and fuzzy

But, Cooper was very serious in regards to his own UFO experiences and even cleared the air when it was reported that he saw a UFO in space. He could very well have gone along with that story, but didn't.

I can't investigate hundreds of cases. I try to concentrate on ones for which I have a professional background, and access to resources.

I raised the 'Mercury-9' Cooper space UFO story as a trap, too. I think by now it's clear that everybody at this thread agress it is a totally bogus story, no matter how often it is repeated on UFO propaganda websites.

Cooper says it's a totally bogus story. I choose to believe him on this statement because his words are consistent with other experts and with existing records.

On other statements, however, we run into serious descrepancies between his version of a particular event, and that of other witnesses, and of existing records.

In the case of his story about his spy camera on Gemini-5, we have reached a consensus that his claims about seeing those license plate photographs are unbelievable. Why he made the claims, we'll never know. I'm willing to speculate it was a hospitable tall tale to amuse his audiences who loved such stories. I think there are other stories he has told that are like that, too.

In regards to Astronaut Gordon Cooper's UFO experience over Germany, other pilots reported in other locations as well.

I can't help thinking this guy is too perfect. Perfect position to reveal all, and yet perfect position to muddy the waters too..

Lets play hypothetical here

Say your a patriot who goes through the process of the military, then the even more rigerous process of NASA training, by the end of all that it would be safe to say you believe pretty strongly in your country. Now say you see something on your travels through space, and like a good American you keep it secret because thats what your CO tells you to do. And that works for a while becaue the climate of the day promotes its success. But time passes and information becomes less a sacred cow and more chance to sound important so now what. Your retired and alone no unit for support, but your still vehemently patriotic, what do you do? Mess everyone up and still keep the secrets. First you tell people you saw something, they have to believe you because there are only a handful of people who have been in your position ever, lends credibility to your words. But then you do something funny, you tell stuff that couldn't possibly mesh with your earlier statements thereby muddying the waters. Voila secrets kept, fun had, waters muddyed, mission accomplished.

Or he's experiencing the early stages of senility and his earlier statements are accurate but undermined by the nutty stuff after.

Or its all the truth.

Indeed they did.

And I offer no prosaic explanation for those reports -- I don't know of anybody who has even investigated them.

But i'm glad you brought them up.

You see, there apparently are no such press reports of anybody in Germany in 1951, especially near Cooper's air base in Munich,
who reported seeing anything like Cooper now remembers he saw there and then.

In the cases you cited (thank you, again), there were numerous witnesses and press reports.

In Cooper's story, there are no contemporary confirmatory reports.

He alone apparently witnessed the phenomenon.

Curious, nicht wahr?

This is useful speculation, but incomplete. You should also do some thinking
about how various hypotheses can be checked. We are not helpless here --
there are libraries, veterans' associations, public gatherings, all that
may contain helpful context.

The problem with the option "it's all the truth" is that this leaves us with
conflicting records and testimony that then would have to be bogus. So
we have to judge propensity for bogusity for various claims. And the best
way to make an informed judgment is to develop a documented track record
for the different sources.

Makes a person wonder why many UFO reports were not investigated and others were simply explained away.

Probably a short attention span, and reluctance to stay on theme -- there's a
lot of that sloppy attitude going around, including locally....

Most UFO experiences aren't even reported, as you know. And for many
witnesses, the last thing they want is a prosaic explanation -- why risk
losing the thrill if it were counterfeit?

So back to focus -- isn't it curious how there indeed are lots and lots
of contemporary newspaper stories in Europe about pilots spotting UFOs, but
somehow Cooper alone is the witness to the report near Munich in 1951?

How would that situation be established? I mean, what sort of research
would be needed -- and if done thoroughly, would be sufficient -- to
demonstrate that there are no contemporary corroborative accounts?

Then we can ponder the implications....

well you can do all the fact checking and confirmation you want it still won't fix the underlining problem with this particular aspect. Human witnesses must now fo the sake of integrity be eliminated from the word of UFO confirmation. Even people of unassaliable character can be doubted because it comes down to one human taking the word of another human. Which everyone knows is a little on the light side these days. So for the sake of sanity keep any confirmation to the clearly technical elements, leave it to the science of radar waves and vectors etc.

This is not to disparage any human sightings its simply a clearer method to make people take the subject more serious. Just based on math we are not alone, are we visited?, i don't know. I have only our science to go by so my answer is probably no based on time and distance. But everyday we revise and refine our knowledge so maybe it will change soon too. I have always had a problem arbitrarily dismissing human sightings, especially the ones made but people with a long track record of sound reasoning. From what I've seen even if your a highly respected, long standing member of a community that all goes out the window once you say you saw some strange lights on the horizon that were not swamp gas reflecting moonlight off the butts of ducks.

I'm not that pessimistic. I think when properly calibrated and not over-interpreted, eyewitness accounts remain critically important for any unusual phenomena or event.

When it comes to demonstration of ETI contact, however, I'd be much more confident in informational evidence -- like, when and
where in the sky the next supernova will appear. Hey, these guys might be starfarers, so it'll be on their nav charts because it's already
happened, even if the light hasn't reached this boondocks planet yet. So tell us in advance. THAT would be mighty persuasive!

That would do it for me.

How disheartening to find all this out.
I watched "Out of the Blue" (the first version that came out in 2003) again today (not the new one that has been recently released)

About 25 minutes into the 90 minute film they discuss Coopers' sighting and I hear what he says. At first (to me), it sounds like the narrator puts words into his mouth about being at the sight when the "crew" took the film of the object back on May 2 1957. Like he WAS there and SAW this. But I don't actually hear COOPER say this (it's the way they presented it ) . But I hear COOPER, himself stating HE handled the flm etc etc. Not ever saying he was actually there WHEN the incident took place but that he said he handled the film and only took a look at the film when he held it up to the window...

*sigh* oh well...



I'm sure you've figured this out by now (as I am a bit behind on this topic) .. but you can also see what I am referring to HERE

Very perceptive of you. As for Cooper's original story, he gave an early version
in 1978, in an interview with Lee Spiegel (for OMNI magazine). Lee asked him
directly about Edwards, and he evaded any discussion by saying,
"I'd just as soon not get into the Edwards incident. I didn't get to see
anything personally, it was all second hand evidence really."

That story later did indeed improve with time.

I'm still in touch with Lee, let me see if I can get a copy of that tape,
if he still has it.

In July, 1978, my wife Linda introduced me to Lee Spiegel, who was working as a Maitre D' at a place called Boodle's in the East 70s, and he acquired for me a colorful invitation from Eric Gairy, Prime Minister of Grenada to attend the United Nations special UFO day. Everyone was there, Astronaut Gordon Cooper, Len Stringfield, UFO researcher, Sir Eric Gairy, then still Prime Minister of Grenada, Lee Spiegel, Research and Visual Consultant on UFO data, Dr. Allen Hynek, Director of the Center on UFO Studies, Evanston, IL, and others. I went upstairs to the Reception room and photographed and met some of these people, William Moore, Stanton Friedman. I still have my souvenirs of that day.

Jim, when you speak to Lee, say hello and thanks again from me.

Will do. We were a brash young group of writers and editors who were brought together to produce OMNI magazine. I had stuff in the first issue, and the second, and and and... and eventually, in the final paper issue too, as media evolved. It was a grand, creative experience.

I wanted to work at OMNI so bad, but I had to settle for Beyond Reality Magazine & UFO UPDATE, both the product of Harry Belil. It was a one-man, schlock operation and I did help clean it a bit but not too much. I'm on the masthead of a few issues. But, fortunately, that association got me invited to an annual Christmas party in New Jersey by UFOlogist extraordinaire James Moseley, editor of Saucer Smear. The personalities I met, and then my being mentioned in the newsletter was just too much! And in the movie "UFOria," a science fiction/comedy movie starring Fred Ward, Harry Dean Stanton, Harry Carey, Jr. and Cindy Williams, you see Cindy browsing through an issue of, you guessed it, Beyond Reality magazine. I may not have been young then, but I sure was brash!

I will SY IT AGAIN!!!!!

The guy said he was connected by space aliens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????????????

Actually, he said a FRIEND was telepathically contacted by space aliens,
and he believed her and relayed her warning to
a friend in the space shuttle program, Ben James.

Conveniently (and Clark McClelland does this all the time, too), by the time Cooper published
his book, Ben James was dead. No verification (same old refrain).

But I checked with the lead engineers of space shuttle development, and they told me they
never heard of the warning ('something wrong with the cabin life support design'), and there
were no engineering changes made to cabin life support in that time frame.

The pattern of this story, of the flying saucer trip that Cooper says he was invited on (he packed a
traveling bag and some cameras to get ready, he writes), or his horrible investment advice to people
who trusted his reputation (he lost all his own money, too), paints a portrait of an innocent gullible
guy not well connected with hard reality.

He thinks he was treated harshly at NASA, too, because he never got to walk on the Moon. But
other astronauts tell me that Slayton bent over backwards to give him new chances to get straight
and serious about flight training, not weekend jet-ski and plane racing -- he (alone among Mercury
astronauts) was given a 1966 backup Gemini crew assignment (Gemini-12) to see if he performed up
to the required level of commitment, and then -- when the results were dubious at best -- he was
given a backup Apollo crew assignment (Apollo-10, with, interestingly enough, Ed Mitchell), that he
badly flubbed. He just didn't pay attention to his classes, his workbooks, his technical assignments --
he figured he had a command module pilot to handle that vehicle (Donn Eisele) and a lunar module
pilot to handle that one (Mitchell), and all he needed to do was handle the stick. He couldn't hack the
engineering classes. People who trained with him tell me he didn't even try to look like he cared.

Slayton was desperate since he had concluded sending Cooper up on a mission was doomed if anything
unusual occurred. By sheer luck, that was the period that Alan Shepard got his ear surgery, that worked,
and he returned to flight status -- and Slayton slipped him into the place on the crew that Cooper had
worked with (Eisele, too, was later replaced, by Stu Roosa, for personal behavior atrocities).

That crew, the Apollo-10 backup crew, would have rotated to fly Apollo-13. The consensus in the spaceflight
community is that had Cooper been left in command of that mission, and the explosion had occurred as
it really did, all three men would have died. Cooper wasn't a Jim Lovell, the man who accidentally was in
the right place at the right time.

Lovell, as you recall, had been rotated from backup commander of Apollo-11 (after flying to the Moon on
Apollo-8), to commander of Apollo-14. But Slayton, relieved but cautious, wanted to give Shepard and his two
rookie crewmates more training time, and switched the Apollo-13 and Apollo-14 crews -- hence Lovell's
presence there. His knowledge and his character saved the crew when catastrophe struck.

Cooper, in mid-1969, was outraged not to have been given what he felt he 'deserved', the Apollo-13 mission.
Slayton tried to find another space mission that Cooper could get, that he wouldn't kill everybody on board by his
inadequacies, and asked him if he wanted to be the first commander of the Skylab space station. That flight was
still two or three years away and involved 28 days of circling Earth. Cooper was even more pissed -- he told Slayton
he wouldn't hang around for partial flight duties (the word he used was 'half-astronaut') when he should be going
to the Moon. Slayton was unmoved. Cooper quit a few days later.

When Shepard walked on the moon, in a mission Cooper thought of as stolen from him, reportedly Cooper went out
of the country for awhile so as not to be exposed to the press coverage -- now THAT'S bitterness.

In later years, most former astronauts often took part in space conferences and symposiums and ceremonies. To
a large degree, Cooper boycotted them all. The only public events he seems to have been happy at were UFO conferences
and a bizarre series of cameo appearances on the Letterman show, where he actually was the butt of Letterman's
jokes but didn't seem to mind.

It's a sad story. And it's the context of his later activities and stories.

Jim human witnesses can ALWAYS be doubted and with doubt of one thing comes doubt of other related things, even if they have the security of being technologically accurate people will still be doubting it because they will link it with the human factor.

I suggest there is a gradation of 'doubt level' depending on the individual, their experience, and the topic they are testifying about. For important issues I think the 'doubt level' can be adequately suppressed -- and credibility enhanced -- by good investigative work. It is not a question of dismissing any subjective testimony automatically, out of hand, and with the same degree of confidence across the board.

Good investigative work is what excluded many UFOs as those of mankind.

Another UFO story associated with Cooper's name apparently is not Cooper's responsibility at all -- it appears to be a hoax.

Alleged J. L. Ferrando 'taped interview' with Cooper
http://www.beyondweird.com/ufos/Astronaut_...ts_On_UFOs.html
http://www.skepticfiles.org/moretext/apollo.htm
http://www.unexplainable.net/artman/publis...icle_2692.shtml
etc etc

No Mercury UFO

"No, somebody made a lot of money selling … lies on that one," Cooper, the sixth American in space, told Art Bell on the syndicated "Coast to Coast" talk radio show Thursday night. "It was totally untrue, sorry to say."

"However, the retired air force colonel, who once lectured the United Nations on the reality of UFOs, still holds an "unshakable" belief in extraterrestrial intelligence, thanks largely to personal experience."

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/cooper.html

How did you -- or anybody you know -- seek corroborative testimony on the 1951 Germany story?

Assuming there might be a need for it, what would you suggest be the approach of an investigator?



On the other hand, several UFO investigators did look at the May 1957 Edwards story. James McCampbell,
for example. The story is treated in detail in his 1968 congressional testimony. The story is thoroughly documented
in the Blue Book files, where the photos were sent -- and where they currentl;y reside, accessible to any
interested researcher.

Oddly enough, McCampbell (writing in 1968) makes no mention of Cooper's involvement in the Edwards report.
Neither does the Blue Book report. How can this be explained?



The alternate approach, to believe every word of Cooper's every story because he is a HERO -- you've already
abandoned that, by admitting that his claim to have seen license plates on hand-held photos he took from Gemini-5
was impossible.

So let's look at the evidence.....

Looking back into history, UFOs were overflying Europe and other pilots made similar reports as well, so Cooper could be telling the truth since we can find similar UFO reports to his.



I have a very big problem with Project Blue Book and in 1966, it became known that many of the explained case files in Blue Book were found to be flawed. As far as Cooper's comments are concerned, I am a bit familiar with his account, and I am also aware of other UFO reports over the Edwards AFB area made by military personnel of flying saucers that were not theirs.

I am also aware that such flying vehicles were also seen over other military and nuclear installations and records show that the military became alarmed over those instrusions by UFOs, and Cooper was not present during those incidents, but it shows that similar UFO accounts to what Cooper has stated, can be found in actual government documents.

And there are records all over the place to prove this, your right there Nativechick, there was the incident in england on one of thier bases that was well documented.
What bothers me is this, why would anyone come forwarcd to recieve the disdain and ridacule of the majority, if they thought they were not at all sure what they saw was in fact there. And some of the people who come forward are not your basic tinfoil hat wearing types. Its people the majority trusts to gaurd and defend thier lives, strange. sSo if you follow it logically you would have to say this

1. either every single person who comes forward is nuts period.
2. some are actually telling the truth and are right in thier assertions.

Which is more likely?