What if you're wrong atheists...why take the chance?


From alt.atheism

Veritas writes:

"Atheists say there is no God but you stake your immortal soul on this. What if you're wrong? What then Why take the chance?"


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********


V replies:


I don't claim there is a God or not. I am an agnostic freethinker.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0

Nor do I know if there is an entity that is responsible for intelligent design or a universal power such as Karma or other supernatural phenomena at work...I just don't know.

Immortal Soul?

Again, I don't know.

Even if it was discovered that humans came from an alien experiment eons ago that dropped off some inferior specimens to the earth to see what would happen...this would qualify as something supernatural to me and godlike in its scope.

But when it comes to Yahweh I'd stake a 85% chance he is man made.

And if I am wrong I'd take my lumps in hell as Yahweh is not a good God to worship even if Yahweh was real. We all have to live within certain moral and philosophical guidelines if we wish to be at peace. And the idea that Yahweh is a good, all loving, peaceful God is just man made fantasy if one bothers to read what it says about Yahweh in the bible.

See coming to peace with the 'Hell test' below.

Also see 'Would God approve of God':

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=318.0

When it comes to faith...faith must always be based on the fact of a 'first see-er' or 'first contact' that is telling the truth. We do not come up with ideas to base faith on all on our own. All religious faith is based on someone else's reports. If this persons report is based on lies, than the faith must evaporate.

So if you want a first hand report as to what God is or is not, go to the source of the faith. But don't make excuses for God and turn God into something that the written report does not show God to be.

All this being said... we ALL serve two higher powers...the God of Nature and the God of Inner Peace. But I do not claim these as Gods in the traditional sense that most people think of God.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=342.0

When it comes to Yahweh and being at peace with the Hell test? Many atheists have put more time in trying to understand and find God than most theists.

Hermeneutics is a major problem with religious thought. The inability to understand as the need to understand says it all about man made religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

There is such debate and disagreement as to what the scriptures really mean and the consequences of a 'bad' interpretation will mean everlasting torture and pain in hell? When deciphering code and hidden meanings becomes a life or death proposition, one has to wonder about a God that supposedly put his name on such a muddled up document.

I can also tell you that destroying another being and causing them 'pain and torturing for eternity' will yield the provider of that pain and torture ZERO peace. This concept of pain, eternal hell and karma all smacks of the human touch of 'fear based' religious thought. We can see it in a quote from a Christian list member here:

JesusForgiveThem writes:

"Do you believe in eternal suffering? I surely would hate for anyone to consciously chose to spend an eternity in hell over some foolish pride that they can't get over ... as opposed to opening your heart to Jesus and see what he has to offer before writing Him off completely."

This discussion of eternal suffering that JesusForgiveThem brings up leads us to another problem. Which divinely inspired document does one follow as there are numerous books... all claiming to the word of God? And all these documents conflict with each other? It is with this overlap of these documents that are in agreement that I seek to find peace with.

And anything that conflicts or cannot be substantiated and does not pass my empirical tests I have to let it go as 'man's ego' being injected into the equation. If God wishes to make things clear and without the need for hermeneutics then I am all ears. But until that time, we must each do the best we can and come to peace with this subject for ourselves.

But this problem of hermeneutics is not limited solely to the study of monotheism. It also encompasses the history of Buddhist thought as well. A favorite saying of the Mahayana is that of using 'skillful means' to achieve ones goal. Skillful Means = Put a Spin On It = LIE.

Now, I am not just singling out the Mahayana as the bad boys. Lies and imperfections are widespread throughout all spiritual thought that was ever created my man. Man is imperfect and as such all his religious thought it also imperfect. But within these imperfections there are also many perfection's, as seldom is a thing all good or all bad.

With my own spiritual quest I have evolved into an agnostic freethinker. From the tradition of religion telling massive lies intermingled with some truths (yes the spiritual traditions of the world contain some truth) I have learned to not believe anything that requires faith and cannot be tested and applied as a universal law to the whole of society. I apply this form of thought to all my spiritual traditions I draw from whether it be monotheism to Buddhism or Taoism.

Now some of these spiritual truths are 'lesser truths' and subjective in nature. The application of such relative truth is more or less unimportant and up to the likes or dislikes of the individual. But the larger truths that are universal in nature are what I try to distinguish and then follow. If a concept is not 'crystal clear' and requires much speculation, I let it go. We can see what has happened in religious history when man gets too 'enthused' about interpretation. I do not wish to follow in those footsteps.

How do we know we have made an honest effort at this decoding business? For one, we do not fool with decoding, we just think and test for truth. Number two, we come to peace by giving it the 'hell test.' We work towards moral and ethical principles and develop what is called a 'good heart' which also aligns us magically with the empirical basics of religious thought in the various documents attributed to be the word of God.

If we are successful at this quest and ethically and morally sound, when it comes time to die we can be at peace knowing we have done our best in this area. And if we find out that there is a hell and the entity 'claiming to be God' (for lack of a better name) has domed us to hell from 'not decoding it right' even with our best efforts, we can be at peace with knowing God is an unjust God and not a real God but an alien 'god bully' of sorts.

And when it comes to dying and the title 'loving God', we as imperfect humans that strive to develop a good heart will contain infinity more of that true 'Godly nature' that this 'alien god bully' claming to be God that seeks to torture those that have worked along spiritual lines to be good people.

This is the 'hell test' in a nutshell - you are at peace with your actions and you are authentic as well about your life. When you align Right Actions + Authenticity this equals PEACE - Just as Socrates told his accusers when they condemned him to death. Socrates had no fear of evil in this life or after death:

"Wherefore, O judges, be of good cheer about death, and know this of a truth - that no evil can happen to a good man, either in life or after death."

As I write this post, I am reminded of aliens in an old "Superman" movies that came to earth to tell us to 'bow down' to them or else? Yes, the aliens in the movie had great powers but they were not God...they were just gods to us humans. Seek truth, seek inner peace, seek the development of a good heart and put your best efforts into finding it and you too can be at peace with this subject.

Of course, if one has never found inner peace all that I am telling you is unbelievable to you? Always remember...a wise mans knows what he says and a fool can only say what he knows. Learn to say what you know, and also know right from wrong actions and you can be at peace with your life or any life to come as well.

One last point. If you look at the name of the Christian I quoted above it is JesusForgiveThem it tells an interesting story in itself. If a God needs to be told by JesusForgiveThem or any other of us humans what to do, what is right or wrong and we can sway an omnipotent and perfect God just by begging...then that is one scary God. For we can see what has happened on earth when human demigods have been in power.

See:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/burning.html






Take care,


V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2

50 procent chance of getting it right, right? That's enough for me. I'm sure God is a better and far more loving judge than any earthly judge (if there is a God), so I'm not worried about a thing

Like I've always said, I see it like Ivan in the Brother's Karamazov that even if God does exist he's a cruel entity and somehow its not possible for me to give myself completely over to him when it means that others will suffer. The suffering of others is just the one part that I can't reconcile with God.

If atheists are wrong ,it still leaves the problem of which religion is right to follow ,What if we spend our life worshipping the wrong god ?If you are going to believe in God ,which God do you choose?if you choose the wrong one you still go to hell.So it is not just a matter of believing in god you have to believe in the right one or you have wasted your life ,That is something that applies to believers also ,they are just hoping they have picked the right one
However not to worry ,we will all enter that eternal darkness from which there is no return

fullywired

i guarantee that this suffereng is probably man-made.

its unfortunate, but how could we appreciate the beauty of life without some ugliness? i havent had a wonderful life, but my trials have built my character and im a better person for it.

i would encourage all to at least give christ a chance and seek his knowledge. dont judge until you, open-mindedly, explore his love. if your still left wanting, then fair enough. i feel that if you truly open your heart, he will touch you. i can attest to his love in my life. im a better father and husband through practicing his ideas and embracing his love.

some people use evangalizm to "boost numbers." this is wrong. a fake "christian" only sets christianity back, because they arent representing the words of christ and makes us appear to be hypocrites.

even atheists, though they may not believe in the divinity of christ, must admit that if everyone practiced what christ preached, the world would be a better place. you may not believe he was god, but he believed in what he preached so much that he endured the most inhuman execution known to man. you have to admit, thats admirable.

Its not about my suffering. My suffering is a pain in the a*** because it usually turns me into an emotional puddle of jello to some degree.

I'm talking about the suffering of children. Of watching others suffer. That's too much. And whether it be at the hands of others or not, its still wrong.

I'm sure if God was real and us atheists were wrong, and we all decided to act like a good Christian even though we didn't really believe in God, he would know.
Are you trying to draw a correlation with Pascal's Wager?

That's exactly what I was thinking. Being a hypocrite isn't going to save anyone, they would just be lying to themselves and God.

thats true. perhaps these things make god just as miserable as it does us.

as a christian i have seen the damage "fake" christians have wrought against the world. they have almost ruined the christian name.

ITS ALL bull - CREATED TO SCARE THE MASSES
THIS IS NOT A SPOILER
but hey i will take what comes - i mean - a never ending nothing sounds like a nice break to me

Almost?

well, for many people, including yourself, the damage is done.

please understand that this isnt reflective of all christians.

"The suffering of men is both useful and nessecary"



Why not anyother Religion. I do feel better when I wake up with set beliefs,
and atheists why not take part in a Religion that doesn't believe in god.
Feel free to correct me if Im wrong, but I don't think Buddists believe in a
creator, they simply have ways they believe to live.

If God and Jesus do exiest (I know they do) Im absolutly sure that they will
have mercy on all atheists. God loves all of his creations.

"Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
Their ears dull, And their eyes dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed."

YHWH

Atheists are free to believe what they wish, we are all free to choose.

However I hope that atheists finally choose to believe in a God (you don't have to choose a "religion" to believe in God, as faith in its true form is a private pact/covenant between you and God) Choosing to study and understand a Prophets teachings (be it from whatever source, Abraham, Jesus son of god, Mohammed, Krishna, Budda, the Bab... whomever) doesn't instantly write you into a Religious community and force you to abide by some organized Clergy.

Christ tells us we ourselves are temples, he never told anyone to create a church with clergy, as far as my own opinion about this, the organization of a "Church" is a man made concept.

The fundamentals of ensuring your existence in the here-after is Believing in God, believing in your spiritual existence, and being a "positive" contributing person to a mankind.


I believe Science will prove soon enough that our existence is not mere "chance", that the complex machinery behind what we are made of will unfold. It is not my place to tell anyone what to believe, I can only hope that everyone can believe in something.

My what a unique and innovative concept........not.

So, y'all think that it would be better to pay lip service to god than to not believe.
You must think your god is a fool.

And, as another has said..... "which god?"

the only god of creation ever mentioned

i gotta agree with what your saying.

First off, I'm agnostic. I was born a Catholic, but in the past year i've found that i don't exactly agree with the views of my (former) religion. Before i even anwser your question, yes, i've read the Bible - most of it at least - and though i'm not an atheist, i have had of tendencies toward the religious stance.

Frankly, i find it hard to believe in a 'god' (using the term very loosely here) that is completely 'perfect' and who i cannot relate to at all. Now i know most people will say 'that's why god sent a son', but to be honest, his 'son' didn't prove that he had any human qualities at all. Even now, though i am open to the idea of a higher power, i find it extremely difficult to 'worship' something that i can barely relate to.

Also, i personnally think that religion is just something that humans use as a sort of 'hope' for the future. If they didn't have religion, if they didn't have something to assure them that everything was going to be okay and that everything has a reason, our world would be even more chaotic than it is now.

It is obvious that you think you have chosen the right religion but what if your wrong ? my point being that you won't know until the final curtain and if your wrong you won't even know then ,only if your right will you know .my only regret is that at the final curtain I won't be able to turn to you and say "I told you so "


fullywired

what a glorious victory you will have wrought!!!

I am not after victory ,just trying to stop you wasting your life.



fullywired

How does being Atheist or Agnostic mean that we're wasting our lives...
I would assume that if there ends up being no god when it comes down to it , it will be the religious fanatics and extremists who would have wasted their lives...

Just a honest question and an opinion.

Because god is the source and oneness and light, and love, like a soil that everything grows from.
if a plant rejected the soil in which it grew, it would wither.
But if it spreads its roots deep into the ground and becomes connected with it, it grows
to be a tall sequoia tree, a witness of ages

and I'm not talking about christianity here, that is just one expression of spirituality,
each level of growth has its own expression.
for some spirituality is burning a dead animal that could be food in an expression of sacrifice to the higher power, because they know no better, for
some it is mediation, for some it is church sessions. Some like to call this oneness the light, some like to call it Allah,
some like to call it the great white spirit.
It is pointless to judge these manifestations of spirituality.
For each his own way of growing depending on how far he can see.

To each their own. Believers need to believe, others don't.

so what? If your believe makes you happy, then all is good.

My question is why do y'all feel incomplete if others have a different path?


But I know the answer I will get.

Yes, you can assume the answer

Look at it from our perspective.

Imagine if you knew, or if you will, thought you knew, something really important that affects people's lives, and your family didn't know. Wouldn't you be happier if they knew too?
Or, imagine how you would feel if you were educated in various sciences, and the world operated on some uneducated principles.

Some people get mad over it, some people get sad, and some are hopeful

but you can't be indifferent if you at least a little care for humanity as a whole.

Well now replace that privileged knowledge with what believers consider to be knowledge (what they believe in), and the feeling is the same.

mhm.

To believe out of fear would nont be belief in the first place. It would be pointless

What if Atheism is wrong?

Well, I'm not a dead Atheist, so I couldn't tell you.

BING! BING! BING! We have a winner!!!!!!


Now, do me a favor and turn that arguement around. What if I am happier being a non-believer? Let me share MY truth with you. You will be happy because I am happy knowing my truth. So, logically, I want to share my happy truth with YOU!

OR, you can believe what you will, and allow others to do the same.
Because, obviously & logically, if one were NOT happy with their current belief system, they would change it, no?
As I did. I followed your god, was instructed in the teachings of the christians. However, it NEVER made sense to me, and made me fearful rather than comforted. So, when I became of age to make my own decisions, I stepped outside those teachings and sought another path. One that makes sense, to me at least, and brings me comfort. And I daresay that I am probably as happy & content with my path as you are with yours.

I was replying to skim who is a believer not an atheist


fullywired

I agree 110%. I'm happy not knowing and potentially not believing. I, as well, grew up as a Christian - Catholic actually. Frankly, i was not happy and didn't agree with what they saw as 'truth' so i quested for my own truth. In my opinion, i find that religion causes more hate, violence, and ignorance than it causes good.

seems like catholicism is an atheist-factory

many people born into catholic families are predisposed to be atheists it seems

Any god that would condemn me for lack of belief ... is not a god I'm interested spending eternity with. No thanks. I'll gladly live my life the best way I know how, try and make a positive difference in this life--instead of doing so for want of a heavenly reward--and take my chances with an afterlife.

Sean

I am not an atheist in any sense of the word. yes, i openly 'bash' (using bash for lack of better word) religion, but to be perfectly honest, i am trying to find something that i can believe in. Atheists flat out say there is no god. Frankly, for all i know, there could be one. If there is a god though, i will have a few things to say to him.

I don't think there's anything to worry about when it comes to believing or not believing. After all, if god loves all it's creatures, than surely he will forgive non-believers for, well, not believing in him? After all, could you condemn someone you love to hell? I doubt it.

Personally, I don't consider myself anything. I'm not atheist, not religious, not really anything. And I'm not too worried about it either. I'm not going to waste my time worrying and thinking too much about something that I'll never know for sure anyway, until I'm dead, after which it's pointless to start thinking about it.

LOL!

funny, cos its true

We all could be wrong, even the most certain christians and atheists.

Everyone is so sure of their stance on theological issues, yet so ignorant at the same time. I might be wrong about Jesus, Allah or Vishnu, but I applied skepticism to god. I could be wrong to do that, I really dont know. I dont rule out the possibility that God exists, but I dont act on it. If I acted on every theological possibility I'd have my hands full for the rest of my life.

http://www.lyrics007.com/Queen%20Lyrics/Pr...e%20Lyrics.html

Imagine there is a galaxy of stars, each star is a living entity of light, and as you go to the middle the stars get denser, until they become one ball of light.
And imagine that this whole galaxy is god, and that the further you go from the center this god "spills" around and the tiny little parts of it,
consider themselves separate from all others.
If the universe has nothing except this galaxy of light and darkness around it, how can one of these particles of light rebel against god and still
be something?
If god is in everything, then rebellion is like striving to be nothing.

Not believing in god is one thing, and I really don't mind people having legitimate views such as that

what I see as senseless is believing in gods existence and still refusing to come to him.
When two people come together, that's god, when they go apart, that's darkness. So if you reject that togetherness and love,
it is rejecting your own self and your place in the universe, because you yourself are a building block of this god.

But sorry if I didn't get you right.
Being a rebel and being an atheist is not the same thing. Being a rebel is denial and pain.
And rebels are those who perceive god as cruel.
God is like a hologram, depending on where you stand, you will see him as an avenger, or
as a being of love

It depends where in the great pyramid you are.
The top of the pyramid makes all points come together in one point, becoming mathematical point (infinite oneness)
on the top.
But as you go down, so does this oneness feel colder and more separate.
It is an illusion of the perceiver. Like a function outputing itself into itself: we see the god that we are

I don't believe in a deity simply because there is absolutely no evidence for one. If there was a god, and it showed itself, I would still reject it. Why? Any god that would create a world of such cruelty and barbarity, is not a god worthy of anything but scorn IMO.



I'm actually agnostic now. And if god does exist, IT is most certainly cruel. Again, any god that would create a world such as this ... is a monster.

Sean

I agree that any God who would create a world like this would be a very cruel God. But at the same time, what if God is just part of the universe? What if there is one central "source" of which everything comes from. That could also be called God... That's my favorite view of the universe. A divine being in and of itself. Everything is actually connected, leading back to it's source....

I don't see cruelty in the world, all I see people tripping and falling over their own shoelaces.

But I guess if you see death as something negative, then It could be a cruel world,
but god(cruel god) and death-as-an-end usually don't exist in the same model of things, at least
not in the model we are discussing

And yet you understand what the word cruelty means? Come on, NW, surely you can do better than that

Give me an example of this cruelty you see from first hand experience

How about an animal being skinned alive?

I suppose it is done by human bodies controlled by god himself in a trance?

A man chose to do it as his own free choice.
It's his blame

When is it going to sink into that milky head of yours that MOST OF US went this route before? You keep saying this !!!

Some of us were fantically faithful. Then something or a couple things went "click" or "pop" in our bubble ! No it wasn't an unanswered prayer/s or bad experiences but may have been a mixed bag. What a drag !

Otherwise I pretty much agree with you.

Accepting Christ into your life is the best thing for you I am sure but some of us can be great fathers/wives/husbands because we want to create a positive effect in others lives and it's JUST PLAIN LOGICAL to be the best you can be.

I REALLY ADMIRE unbelievers who are kind,loving,giving people without any motive of fear or reward in the end. To me these are our TRUE SELFLESS HEROES. Simply the Best..............

So it isn't cruelty?