it just occured do me, every time i post a "why do you believe" post, i really dont know what I am talking about. . . i havent read the bible, i dont remember when i went to church (i probably slept) and i just dont know what im talking about... "searches head for train of thought" ahh i remember,
why is religon SUCH a controversial subject... it is INSANE. maybe it IS that people force religion on others (at least they TRY) and it angers the forced upon. it would if it were me. . .
some believe through fear, some through faith, and some for rewards after death (iraqi terrorists). but its that belief that starts wars. . .
i was wondering if anyone thinks dhey have had an actual religious experience? ill be as openminded as possible.
after all, arent we here together? we alk need to show a bit more patience and care. and i almost forgot, in the 4th time i posted the "why do you" post, yes, 4th time. PA was right, i attacked the bible, im sorry for that because i did not know anything i was talking about.ni just looked for a target.
but, I am still an athiest, just more spiritual right now
Full Version: why do people fight over religion?
I think that a large part of the problem is that many people have suffered at the hands of forced religion and lash out at it. It was probably due to poor parenting skills and instead of recognizing that their parents were jerks, they try to exonerate their parents by making religion this big evil. In doing this they take personal responsibility away from mom and dad and make it "the big evil's fault" Its like watching a primal scream therapy session.
If you were raised in religion in a basic way you don't tend to rip off everyone's face for the failures of the people in your life.
If you were raised in religion in a basic way you don't tend to rip off everyone's face for the failures of the people in your life.
QUOTE(the_atheist_mind @ Sep 16 2007, 12:36 AM) 
i was wondering if anyone thinks dhey have had an actual religious experience? ill be as openminded as possible.
I followed your post well, but this confused me. What do you mean or qualify as an actual religious experience?
For what it's worth, I think the tenacity of religious belief and the intensity of reactions to religious challenges are mostly ego-defenses.
Ego gets a bad rap (ironically, even among the religious). But nobody has yet figured out how to function in a social world without a sense of self. You can withdraw from the world, and lose yourself in bliss (a trust fund is helpful), but to live in the world, you need a "you."
The marvelous thing is that you build your own you. The downside is that it is usually a house of cards, since nobody gets instructions on how to build a solid you. A few hours at Gitmo will break most people, a few months just about everybody.
Fortunately, most of us get to skip Gitmo, and so a house of cards will do nicely. It only has to last a few decades anyway. Religion is a nice glue, politics also works for some people, speaking of things that show up in warfare.
Whatever the role of religion or politics may be in disposing people to conflict, few people do anything difficult for long unless it pays. And crime does pay, if you prevail. So, indeed, Islam goes off to save souls, and by an amazing coincidence, ends up owning Spain.
The Spanish resist that, allegedly for Christ, and once they have kicked some Moorish butt, set off themselves to save New World souls. By an amazing coincidence, they end up owning Latin America.
But I am a cynical sot. I haven't had my walk in the woods yet this morning, and my house of cards is especially wobbly.
Ego gets a bad rap (ironically, even among the religious). But nobody has yet figured out how to function in a social world without a sense of self. You can withdraw from the world, and lose yourself in bliss (a trust fund is helpful), but to live in the world, you need a "you."
The marvelous thing is that you build your own you. The downside is that it is usually a house of cards, since nobody gets instructions on how to build a solid you. A few hours at Gitmo will break most people, a few months just about everybody.
Fortunately, most of us get to skip Gitmo, and so a house of cards will do nicely. It only has to last a few decades anyway. Religion is a nice glue, politics also works for some people, speaking of things that show up in warfare.
Whatever the role of religion or politics may be in disposing people to conflict, few people do anything difficult for long unless it pays. And crime does pay, if you prevail. So, indeed, Islam goes off to save souls, and by an amazing coincidence, ends up owning Spain.
The Spanish resist that, allegedly for Christ, and once they have kicked some Moorish butt, set off themselves to save New World souls. By an amazing coincidence, they end up owning Latin America.
But I am a cynical sot. I haven't had my walk in the woods yet this morning, and my house of cards is especially wobbly.
I think people find some rationalization or a perverted justification to wage war in the name of God. Like burning a woman alive in hopes of saving her soul because Mather thought the women were guilty of witchcraft.
There is no doctrine in the gospels or the epistles that suggests the church is supposed to be kicking everyone's butt. In fact we see Jesus telling Peter to put away his sword. Jesus tells Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world. The disciples wanted to bring fire from heaven down upon a town that rejected them, but Jesus corrects them again. The gospels show us the importance of compassion for our fellow man. The parable of the good samaritan portrays this perfectly. The Apostle Paul wrote the Church to seek peace and obey the laws of the land and to love one another. It makes one wonder why in the world these lessons are not obeyed, rather than what people have erroneously done in the name of God?
There is no doctrine in the gospels or the epistles that suggests the church is supposed to be kicking everyone's butt. In fact we see Jesus telling Peter to put away his sword. Jesus tells Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world. The disciples wanted to bring fire from heaven down upon a town that rejected them, but Jesus corrects them again. The gospels show us the importance of compassion for our fellow man. The parable of the good samaritan portrays this perfectly. The Apostle Paul wrote the Church to seek peace and obey the laws of the land and to love one another. It makes one wonder why in the world these lessons are not obeyed, rather than what people have erroneously done in the name of God?
I don't know, nothing better to do I guess.
Why do people fight over religion. Because religion has as many traps as it has doors.
But you can't have doors without these traps.
Every new important revelation carries an energy which can be devastating or used for good.
Religion is a bit like fire. It's a gift. You can cook with it, drive, fly, be warm, or
you can burn things with it. It can be a flame under your meal, or it can be a giant mushroom of
radioactivity.
Religion is a door that opens both the greatest and worst possibilities in a man.
Does he leads himself into a trap, makes a radioactive mushroom, and shows his words,
or makes a flame to cook, opens up doors and shows the love he is capable of
are two sides, and his choice is his own blame.
Religion is as much as fault of wars, as fission is the fault of Hiroshima.
In both cases, it is the misuse of gifts by humans that caused suffering
But you can't have doors without these traps.
Every new important revelation carries an energy which can be devastating or used for good.
Religion is a bit like fire. It's a gift. You can cook with it, drive, fly, be warm, or
you can burn things with it. It can be a flame under your meal, or it can be a giant mushroom of
radioactivity.
Religion is a door that opens both the greatest and worst possibilities in a man.
Does he leads himself into a trap, makes a radioactive mushroom, and shows his words,
or makes a flame to cook, opens up doors and shows the love he is capable of
are two sides, and his choice is his own blame.
Religion is as much as fault of wars, as fission is the fault of Hiroshima.
In both cases, it is the misuse of gifts by humans that caused suffering
Personally, I don't think there has been even one war fought over religous belief. There is always another agenda, buried beneath the oh-so obvious fervour.
QUOTE(eight bits @ Sep 16 2007, 09:54 AM)
For what it's worth, I think the tenacity of religious belief and the intensity of reactions to religious challenges are mostly ego-defenses.
Ego gets a bad rap (ironically, even among the religious). But nobody has yet figured out how to function in a social world without a sense of self. You can withdraw from the world, and lose yourself in bliss (a trust fund is helpful), but to live in the world, you need a "you."
The marvelous thing is that you build your own you. The downside is that it is usually a house of cards, since nobody gets instructions on how to build a solid you. A few hours at Gitmo will break most people, a few months just about everybody.
Fortunately, most of us get to skip Gitmo, and so a house of cards will do nicely. It only has to last a few decades anyway. Religion is a nice glue, politics also works for some people, speaking of things that show up in warfare.
Whatever the role of religion or politics may be in disposing people to conflict, few people do anything difficult for long unless it pays. And crime does pay, if you prevail. So, indeed, Islam goes off to save souls, and by an amazing coincidence, ends up owning Spain.
The Spanish resist that, allegedly for Christ, and once they have kicked some Moorish butt, set off themselves to save New World souls. By an amazing coincidence, they end up owning Latin America.
But I am a cynical sot. I haven't had my walk in the woods yet this morning, and my house of cards is especially wobbly.
Ego gets a bad rap (ironically, even among the religious). But nobody has yet figured out how to function in a social world without a sense of self. You can withdraw from the world, and lose yourself in bliss (a trust fund is helpful), but to live in the world, you need a "you."
The marvelous thing is that you build your own you. The downside is that it is usually a house of cards, since nobody gets instructions on how to build a solid you. A few hours at Gitmo will break most people, a few months just about everybody.
Fortunately, most of us get to skip Gitmo, and so a house of cards will do nicely. It only has to last a few decades anyway. Religion is a nice glue, politics also works for some people, speaking of things that show up in warfare.
Whatever the role of religion or politics may be in disposing people to conflict, few people do anything difficult for long unless it pays. And crime does pay, if you prevail. So, indeed, Islam goes off to save souls, and by an amazing coincidence, ends up owning Spain.
The Spanish resist that, allegedly for Christ, and once they have kicked some Moorish butt, set off themselves to save New World souls. By an amazing coincidence, they end up owning Latin America.
But I am a cynical sot. I haven't had my walk in the woods yet this morning, and my house of cards is especially wobbly.
A cynical sot for sure!
But you are correct in your assessments for the most part. 
And your house is not wobbly at all, or so it seems. I think most people yearn to 'know' something solid...something tangible...something they can get their heads around. Unfortunately the 'knowable' is quite illusive. So, when someone does 'know', then their 'knowing' becomes a creation of their own mind. People are very protective of their own creations; especially the 'mental' creations. People will tend to 'congregate' with those of similar 'knowing'. And of course there are always those who are at hand, more than willing, to take advantage of the 'know' that people 'know that they know'.
Manipulation of the faithful is an extremely easy task. Therefore, religious wars are always taking place. And as DogsHead so astutely observed:
QUOTE
There is always another agenda, buried beneath the oh-so obvious fervour.
people fight over religion because they want to be 'right'. when another belief claims to be the way to God insecurities float to the top. no other reason. it is the same reason people ' force' thier beliefs on others. insecurity. somehow the more that follow you seems to make you 'right'.
if you look at it honestly it's a childs game really. King of the mountian. Dad/Mon loves me more. all built with rules to 'make it so'. In that sense having a man god really takes the cake. it makes a belief more 'real'. My god did this vs your god did that sort of thing. it's a oneup kind of game.
the most God like ideal however is that God never created a religion nor cares which you follow or don't follow. All other ideas of God are confining.
if you look at it honestly it's a childs game really. King of the mountian. Dad/Mon loves me more. all built with rules to 'make it so'. In that sense having a man god really takes the cake. it makes a belief more 'real'. My god did this vs your god did that sort of thing. it's a oneup kind of game.
the most God like ideal however is that God never created a religion nor cares which you follow or don't follow. All other ideas of God are confining.
I'm not so sure if people fight because they want to be 'right' although thats the way it seems. I think it has to do more with the fact that they don't want to be 'wrong'.
In most cases religion teaches that if you don't believe in a particular religion you will suffer consequences. For example if your not a Christian and don't accept Jesus you go to hell. People fear those consequences so they go around finding ways to reinforce their beliefs, they go around convincing others to believe as they do so they can feel more secure with their beliefs, they discredit other beliefs to make theirs seem more real. People also want to believe that there is a higher a purpose to life, they want their lives to have more significance then it actually does. People are not satisfied with just existing and just being alive and being happy with what they have. They want to believe in the fantastic. People also fear the unknown and therefore the place their faith in religions that give them all the answers...but when a different religion provides different answers they again fear being wrong because if they are wrong then they go back to not knowing.
The majority of people subconsciously don't think that their beliefs are right...they just hope they are. If everybody was comfortable with their believes then there would be a lot less fighting. They just don't want to be wrong because in truth
their fear of being wrong outweighs their satisfaction of being right.
Our fears and egos hold us back more then anything else...humanity could be so much more if it put away those to things.
In most cases religion teaches that if you don't believe in a particular religion you will suffer consequences. For example if your not a Christian and don't accept Jesus you go to hell. People fear those consequences so they go around finding ways to reinforce their beliefs, they go around convincing others to believe as they do so they can feel more secure with their beliefs, they discredit other beliefs to make theirs seem more real. People also want to believe that there is a higher a purpose to life, they want their lives to have more significance then it actually does. People are not satisfied with just existing and just being alive and being happy with what they have. They want to believe in the fantastic. People also fear the unknown and therefore the place their faith in religions that give them all the answers...but when a different religion provides different answers they again fear being wrong because if they are wrong then they go back to not knowing.
The majority of people subconsciously don't think that their beliefs are right...they just hope they are. If everybody was comfortable with their believes then there would be a lot less fighting. They just don't want to be wrong because in truth
their fear of being wrong outweighs their satisfaction of being right.
Our fears and egos hold us back more then anything else...humanity could be so much more if it put away those to things.
QUOTE
Personally, I don't think there has been even one war fought over religous belief. There is always another agenda, buried beneath the oh-so obvious fervour.
Dogshead is absolutely right. War is about competition over resources. Religions coexist peacefully in areas and times when there is NOT a competition for resources. Religion is nothing more than an indentifying characteristic that is used to give good people the ability to do evil things and believe that they are doing good. It's about competition for resources.
Religiosity is very dangerous, people really get wrapped up in it. it is from man for man. Man likes to be in control, When you add religiosity to the scene you get . fighting for control. people get so wrapped up in religion they forgot why they even stepped into it.
QUOTE(DogsHead @ Sep 16 2007, 05:49 PM)
Personally, I don't think there has been even one war fought over religous belief. There is always another agenda, buried beneath the oh-so obvious fervour.
i got to here lol, i believe that too.
people are always fighting for land or some "thing"
wanna know why we are in iraq?` oil.
think of it like playing king of the hill. each wants to be on top. the right one. to not be right means your further from god. ( which of course is nonsense)
each thinks you can only get to god jumping through the hoops they have set up for themselves. rules , laws , sins , tradition , superstition , messiah , waiting for the messiah ............................ add to that land they consider holy.
and when they feel threatened they fight.
each thinks you can only get to god jumping through the hoops they have set up for themselves. rules , laws , sins , tradition , superstition , messiah , waiting for the messiah ............................ add to that land they consider holy.
and when they feel threatened they fight.
QUOTE(Lt_Ripley @ Sep 25 2007, 12:21 PM)
think of it like playing king of the hill. each wants to be on top. the right one. to not be right means your further from god. ( which of course is nonsense)
each thinks you can only get to god jumping through the hoops they have set up for themselves. rules , laws , sins , tradition , superstition , messiah , waiting for the messiah ............................ add to that land they consider holy.
and when they feel threatened they fight.
each thinks you can only get to god jumping through the hoops they have set up for themselves. rules , laws , sins , tradition , superstition , messiah , waiting for the messiah ............................ add to that land they consider holy.
and when they feel threatened they fight.
People fight over religion for exactly the same reasons they fight over their football teams. We are territorial hunter gatherers deep down. Religion is an identity we use to label the 'opposition' until the human race can obtain a more intellectual form of enlightenment fighting over religion is unfortunately here to stay!
QUOTE(DogsHead @ Sep 16 2007, 05:49 PM)
Personally, I don't think there has been even one war fought over religous belief. There is always another agenda, buried beneath the oh-so obvious fervour.
Exactly! Religion is a handy excuse to commit horrible acts of violence and fight to force others to think and be just like they are and to grab all the other guys goodies while your at it! And if there wasn,t religion to fight in the name of, people would just find another reason or cause to be on top and have it all! Just arrogent human nature at it,s worst! And it will always be that way! World peace is a fairy tale whith a not so happy ending! Not as long as we humans are in controle anyway!
Even people of the same religion but in different denominations fight amongst each other. Now, that isn't exactly setting the best example. I know from hearing people here with different interpretations of the Bible, and from a Penecostal church which consisted of the pastor being disrespectful and making fun (in ways, hard to explain) of Catholics, Baptists and Buddhists.
I'm not sure why others fight each other, thinking their religion is the "best". When I was younger, my parents let me go to many different churches with different beliefs. This was to make me more open-minded and to also ultimately help me figure out what I wanted to follow and why. As a result, I go to a baptist church, but I also have friends who are JW, Wiccans, Catholic, etc. We do not condemn each other for our choices, although I have to say sometimes we get into interesting conversations about why we believe what we believe.
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