Howdy all, I just thought I'd share an email with you that I wrote a few months back. I had just finished listening to a sermon in church about "Magic". While our church is generally a fairly conservative uninvasive group, the new pastor has a more hardline stance to things. Don't get me wrong - I've found this guy to be one of the most intellectually gifted men I have ever known. His insights have been astonishing and I think his knowledge of the Bible is unparalleled. Unfortunately, I think he also has a very limited mind when it comes to other beliefs, and that belief shines through with some of his sermons and comments. The following post I am about to share with you is an email I sent to my pastor as a result of a sermon on magic. I guess I did sort of ramble a little bit from time-to-time, but I thought finally that I should share this email with you guys. I was hoping to hear your thoughts (both Christians and non-Christians) about it. All the best, I hope you have a chance to read through it (I know it's long - for which I apologise in advance).

~ Regards, PA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey ******* ******* (Pastor's name removed for anonymity). How's things going this week. Good, I hope.

I apologise in advance for the length of this email, I had much i needed to say. Thanks for the sermon tonight, it was most..... interesting. I hope I don't offend, but I must disagree with your view on magic in film/book/game/etc. This is for two reasons. The nature of magic, and the nature of television (and books/music/movies/games). I believe your sermon was based on a couple of assumptions that are neither static nor realistic.

Firstly, The nature of magic.

In your sermon, you discussed the various types of magic. Not in too much detail though - do you truly think it wrong to even study what magic is? We are told to keep away from it, but is that from practicing it, or educating ourselves about it? There is nothing wrong (I believe) about being educated as to what anything is. It helps us with our understanding of other world-views, and thus helps with evangelism since we know what other people may believe. It helps remove misconceptions and preconceptions about what magic actually is (I wouldn't be surprised if there's one or two members who after your sermon thought that magic was a group of people chanting in a circle as they sacrifice a virgin to pagan gods, or even Satan). It helps us personally in identifying magic (for it can take many forms, not always obvious), and thus helps us keep to God's way and not led astray. In no way do I believe there is a command to steer clear of magic altogether - the "keep away" aspect, I think is from actively practicing it. Having only reached Christianity when i was 19/20 years old, and studying many other religions and beliefs before and since then and knowing quite a few friends that would consider themselves "witches" or "druids". I have found knowing these beliefs vitally important in understanding relationships with people of said beliefs.

I wonder how some of our church members would react when evangelizing or meeting someone on the street and they say "I'm a practicing Wiccan", or "I'm a druid". Would they know the difference between Wicca and Druidism? Would they be able to speak to them and relate to them on a personal level. Or would they think "witch = evil. Run!"

This brings up an interesting question of Ritual. As a Christian, when speaking with non-Christian friends who belong to a faith other than Christianity, we invite them to church or to Bible Study. Assuming they invite us to their place of worship, are we to decline? I would not. I would use it as a chance to see their worship, how it differs to ours, how it is similar. From there, a platform is laid to understand their beliefs, and through understanding show them how Christianity is the path to God.

So a Catholic friend invites me to mass. I agree. A Muslim friend invites me to a Mosque. I agree. A Jewish friend invites me to Synagogue. I agree. A Buddhist friend invites me to Temple. I agree. A pagan invites me to their Coven ritual....... do I agree, do I shun them. Do I tell them no, but then expect them to return the courtesy in attending our Faith. If I know nothing of druidic beliefs, do I (as I'm sure some would do) run away screaming that they're invoking the devil, thus alienating them for good (another nail in the coffin of our collective Faith)? Or in an extreme case, a member of our congregation who knows little of pagan beliefs, do they go to the police (all good intentioned) and inform them of "Satan worship" and that people's lives are in danger as they are about to sacrifice a virgin to their Dark Lord. Or do the un-educated Christians do something themselves and organize a prayer exorcism and physically tie them down and pray over them for the spirit of Satan to leave them (something that happened to at least two pagans I personally know who grew up in regional centres - I'm glad I've been able to show them that not all Christians are like that, but their views are certainly skewed by those experiences. To them, I'm an exception, not the rule).

But I digress.

You mentioned stage magic, and "real" magic (which is actually broken further down into "Ceremonial magic" and "God (not the Judaic God - though by definition it fits into the same category as other god-assisted magic) inspired/assisted magic"). Anyway, as I understood it you had no issue with stage magic, which is natural. Sleight of hand, illusion and subterfuge, we know it's not real.

I'd like to add another category to magic, and that is something I'll (for lack of a better word) call "Fantasy Magic". These are the movies/books/games/RPG's etc. that create an artificial magic where people can shoot fireballs and lightning bolts and summon Beholder's and Control Orcs and things like that. This is Fantasy Magic, completely unrealistic, created for entertainment purposes only. It's just not possible to smite your enemy with a ball of flame while flying away on a trusty broomstick under the cover of a cloak of invisibility.

I believe it is a great fallacy to mix Fantasy Magic and real-life magic together. Fireballs and ogre's, magic wands and fairy godmothers, these are the realm of fairy tales ("Fairy" tales - the fairy being a mythological creature also). I see no reason to necessarily throw the generalization of all magic into all forms of Fantasy fiction.

That said, I guess there may (and I'd like to stress "may") be some wisdom in what you say if we were watching something based on real life magic. A show that attempts to give true-to-life depictions of witchcraft - movies like "the Craft" or shows like "Charmed". But even these are (at best) Hollywood'ised versions of what real life is like. Very little truth remains in them. Maybe a documentary on paganism and witchcraft, do we shun that? If it extols the virtues of the practices, maybe. Though i'd also use it as a chance to learn of these beliefs and improve my knowledge of other people.

Movies and tv, books and music. What is the nature of such as this? Why do we engage in these leisure acts? Your sermon concentrated on the entertainment value. And a large underlying reason is entertainment. But as a theatre student, I have to say that this is a most narrow corridor to take. In live theatre specifically where interaction between audience and actor can reach breaking point, theatre is not necessarily a vehicle for entertainment. Theatre practicioner Antonin Artaud, a most brilliant mind, though somewhat disturbed (he was "treated" for insanity with electro-shock therapy - the "treatment" made him worse, probably), likened the Theatre to the Plague (and created theatre accorrdingly). The Plague infects and infests. It is ugly and brutal and painful. It eats away at the insides, liquifies our internal organs. When the putrification reaches the surface, it forms sores and boils and noticeable rupture points, where the infection gathers, weeping pus and spewing forth the decaying innards.

The Plague is not enjoyable. It is not entertainment. It is raw, and dirty, and painful. But in the end, the remains (survivors) are pure. Life is transformed, and people return to life irrevocably changed, but renewed.

That is the theatre, for Artaud. A place for transformation, where an audience can go through these trials and come out the other side a new being. The theatre for entertainment was pulp for the masses, not worth a dime.

Artaud's theatre is known as "the Theatre of Cruelty" for a reason. That's not to say the actors are physically harmed. Safety is always paramount for actors. It just plays with the audience in such a way to be as uncomfortable as possible, pushes the boundaries of what we consider "normal" in society.

The theatre, where interaction between human spectator and human actor is most apparent, need not always be for entertainment. But neither is the movies, necessarily. A large part of popular entertainment is for.... well, entertainment. That's what many want from the movie/tv/book experience. But it need not be so. Shock, alarm, sadden, outrage, they are just a few adjectives I can think of that movies intend. Labeling the reason for movies and books purely as 'entertainment', and as a by-product, "fun", is so grossly generalized as to be almost blatantly false (from a theatremakers perspective, at least).

Keeping the nature of theatre in mind, we go now on to your sermon point on rape. If we recoil and won't watch rape on the films, why do we allow people to watch magic? The point pressed was that rape is wrong, therefore not entertaining. But entertainment may not be the reason for it. Movies like "The book of Revelation" attempt to shock and educate us to the fact that rape isn't always done by the man (note: I won't watch this movie, nor would I suggest anyone else do, I'm just bringing it up to say that "entertainment" is most definitely not its purpose).

How is this different to magic in film? Rape is invasive. It violates someone else. It moves beyond the comfort zone of ones self, and moves to the destroying of others for own self-satisfaction. It knocks down the boundaries of what is considered right. Magic, on the other hand, concerns the individual. Though the ramifications of magic may affect others, which could be an issue, were these things actually possible. But they're not. Magic as it is depicted in pop-culture and Hollywood is so far off the mark as to not be considered the same thing at all. Games like Diablo II (very theatrically done in your sermon, by the way, cutting it up for us all to see, great punctuating effect)

~PA's note - in this sermon, our pastor came to the realisation that playing computer games involving demons and magic was wrong, and took his copy of Diablo II, which until this point he loved playing, and took a pair of scissors to it, cutting the CD/DVD up for everyone in the congregation to see

deal with mythical creatures that have never existed being destroyed by spells that also never existed. Harry Potter has enchanted flying brooms that can't in real life fly and invisibility cloaks that just don't exist. Disney movies play on the child's imagination of "once upon a time". If we shun the "once upon a time", do we shun the "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away". Do we shun the "there's no place like home".

Moving away from magic, this opens a whole can of worms. Do we shun the Superman movies? Do we shun the Brothers Grimm and their Fairy Tales. Do we shun the Sound of Music, with its Catholic overtones (my God, Catholic - run away, for the sake of your eternal soul, run away). Why not just throw our tv's and stereo's and book collection out. Or sell them and give the money to the church, that would be best, right?

The list is endless. In the end, I agree with the major premise of your talk - it depends WHY we watch the shows/read the books/listen to the CD. But to see a fairy tale as "this is evil" is just plain ludicrous for so many reasons, not the least of which is the magic is completely unrealistic from real life spirtual mysticism.

Though one could argue that tv is a form of illusion, thus anything that happens on film could be considered the same as stage magic, all smoke and mirrors. Did this possibility enter your thoughts?

Before I end off, I'd like to discuss one more issue that came across to me. Touchy subjects of divine gifts. Precognition, for example. I have no doubt that this is possible. People who can see future events, not because they set out to try and see them or find them (which one could rightly class as "divination"), but because of a natural ability they have that just comes uncalled. You could argue the gift was given them by God, but how does one know? How is one able to discern that this special gift was provided by God. Especially when the gifted one is non-Christian. Does one ignore the gift they have, do they help people with it. If a Christian has been given the gift, does this mean it is from God, or is it a temptation they are to avoid.

(As an interesting aside here, the Wiccan who uses magic often leans on the concept of gods and goddesses to tap their abilities. From their point of view, tapping the power of the Chrisitan God is exactly what Christians do when they pray and ask for healing/guidance/requests. From the larger view beyond Chrisitanity, an outsider looking in may not necessarily see any difference in application and effect of what a Christian does when praying and what a Pagan does when doing magic).

And so I come to the end of my overly long discourse on your sermon. Thanks for taking the time to read it all (if you got this far, haha). If you could, I'd appreciate some feedback on this.

Regards, Paranoid Android

I only skimmed this, because it's hardly brief; but from what I gather.. I would have to disagree with the basic idea of the sermon..

Firstly, the notion that any sort of magic is in fact possible or real is quite hard to take seriously. If "magic" exists, it is something natural we have yet to accept. Of course, there's the problem that nobody can step up to the plate and demonstrate it; so it's entirely reasonable to conclude that it, in fact, almost certainly does not exist in any way, shape, or form.

Secondly, onto the avoidance of "bad" or "ungodly magic" or things related to it. I think, in some respect, that's simply all talk. For example, if you live in a village of indigenous people, and at one point a giant veiled statue appears in their village overnight. The chief of the village tells the people not to lift the veil, or they'll be burnt to ashes where they stand. Of course, they wouldn't be burnt to ashes, but their fear of the "spirits" around them and their trust in the chief makes the statue a complete taboo. Entertainment involving magic or demons is simply entertainment, as long as you find it entertaining; it's not inherently negative unless you make it out to be that way. It may sound like I'm not taking into account how very real demons may seem to be for Christians, but simply that I can't understand why any form or representation in an entertainment medium should be considered evil or wrong. Trying to limit the imagination is a harsh practice, the only needed restraint is keeping the imagination confined within itself and not projecting it into reality, if it's something that should stay in the imagination.

And as for the "dealing with the devil" in terms of wiccans, or practicioners of ritual or "magic", I think it would be in any case a poor choice to make assumptions about people like that. People are people, we all have imaginations and we all have beliefs in some form. You can relate to any human being on some level and especially a normal person who just happens to hold a belief you don't agree with.

Man PA, I was eating. I think you could have left off the last three chapters.




You never know PA we might pull you over to our side yet. What until we bring out the dark chocolate cookies I am making for Samhain. I have invited Christians to our rituals, I have never had one taker.

Always a possibility, my friend But unlikely. Chances are we're both going to end up in a stalemate and be happy to accept each other just as we are.

Those cookies sound awesome though - you'd have me going with you.

Wow...that was a great post





This part especially, if I could get some Christians I know to come to one of my rituals, or even just sit zazen with me for a little while and just talk, without a debate, just freely talk about what we are doing and what is going on, I think they would understand everything a lot better. I would go to a church if someone invited me, but most Christians seem to think that even just attending a ritual, even if they don't join in on it, seems to be a form of blasphemy.

I would love to see what your pastor wrote back to you about this, if he did write anything back.

^I actually had a long discussion with him at church about it. As you saw, it was a long email, and rather than typing it out (which would take up more space than my original email) he discussed the individual points.

In short, we ended up in a bit of a stalemate. I don't think i changed his mind, but I hope I gave him some things to think about.

There is no difference between magic and religion.

In concept, maybe, but in general, I've found magic to be the more believable of the two.

It's been my experience that both magic and religion (I am defining "religion" as personal Faith here, I am not referring to the institutions or buildings) are effective and real. I am fully convinced that there is another realm (spirit real/dimension) that people can tap into if they desire. When someone does this, an effect that people describe as "magic" occurs. It won't result in flying broomsticks and fireballs shooting from fingertips, but it is no less real for that.

People can also tap into the power of God through prayer. This is also real. I have observed both to be real and useful. While I don't agree with Gideon about religion and magic having "no difference", I would agree at least that they are both real.

~ PA

There is no difference in tapping into "special powers ordained by god from the spiritual world" and throwing fireballs. Both are fictitious and require faith in a belief rather than any real world testable phenomena.

I respect your beliefs PA, but if you cannot see that belief in one form of magic while denouncing others is a bit hypocritical then I am not sure what to say. Compartmentalized logic maybe, I don't know psychiatry is not my thing.

^I wasn't "denouncing" anything. I said they were both effective and real. I did say I believed in both. Didn't I?

You believe people can throw fireballs and ride orcs?

Edit: Also can we get a short synopsis of how the talk with him (your pastor) went?

Now I have a chance to be more specific. The only "difference" is the terminology. When a Priest says, "take, eat, this is my body", no matter whether you are Catholic or protestant, there is no difference whatsoever than a wiccan Priestess blessing cakes and wine. None, zero, zilch. It's all the same, the same one God whether you say YHVH, Kuan Yin or Hecate, or, for that matter, the Law of Attraction or the Force.

Gideon is right. One groups magic is another group’s evil, and visa versa. In my opinion Christians practice just as much magic as Wicca’s do. The only difference is what they worship, and that Wicca’s are up front and honest about it.

No, I don't believe this is possible. But then again, nobody else does, either. It's fiction. Not even witches or warlocks or druids believe you can throw a fireball from thin air. I know what point you are trying to make, but my discussion is concerned with beliefs that people actually hold, as opposed to those Eddings fans who happen to like a good novel (btw, I love David Eddings, among other fantasy-writers).

It was months ago, so unfortunately I can't give you a detailed synopsis. In general though, we spoke at length on the matter - there were 4 main issues that i think we discussed, but I couldn't say what the overall response of it was:

~ The nature of magic. It was my contention that "magic" was subtle, not as obvious as Diablo demons and firebolts and lighting strikes. My pastor disagreed and said that in the Bible that's exactly what magic was like - pointing to the priests advising Pharaoh as an example (these priests were able to do many of the same magic tricks that Moses was able to do with the power of God, except that God proved his power by doing it better and more decisively (eg, both turned their staffs into snakes, but Aaron's staff ate the other snakes). It is true that the Bible doesn't give us detail as to whether Pharaoh's advisers were really magicians, or just illusionists, so I'll give him the points for this one.

But then I countered by saying that Simon Magus could do many of the miracles that the apostles (and Jesus, while he was alive) could perform. But there were some things he couldn't do, and Simon attempted to "buy" this information from Peter, as if it was a trick to be peddled. Many consider Simon Magus to be a simple illusionist, but like the priests of Pharaoh, there is no biblical indication either way. But the fact that Simon tried to buy the trick as if it were an illusion is a big give-away. Points to me.

So far we're even.

For the rest, we discussed matters of how magic is portrayed in the popular media. He argued that according to the Bible magic is wrong. According to the Bible rape is wrong. But we are happy to watch a movie that extols the virtues of magic, yet we would recoil at the concept of a movie which revolved around rape. I spoke about the nature of theatre and how "entertainment" wasn't the sole purpose of any movie (though often times it is). That then led to what circumstances would be acceptable to see a piece of theatre involving magic.

Really, it seemed to be a stalemate. i believe I "won" the debate. He believes he "won". In the end, we both agreed to disagree, and agreed that whatever our points of view, they were not part of "essential doctrine" (that is, they did not impact on our eternal salvation). We thus agreed to leave it at that, and moved on our separate ways. As long as we both agreed that practicing it was wrong, and that we should be careful when exposing children to ideas of magic, even if it was in the context of a cartoon or a children's program. But I never disagreed with that - heck, when I was young, my parents sat me down and made sure taht I knew Road-Runner wasn't real, and that what happened to Wyle E. Coyote wasn't real and couldn't happen to us in real life. that's just common sense, if you ask me. If you don't teach kids that a cartoon is only a cartoon and not real, then who knows what ideas can slip into their heads.

As I said...... a stalemate.

~ regards, PA

PA you opened this thread with an intresting post.......now I would like it if you spoke a lil on how you have experienced magic ....I have never experienced it...to be honest I was sceptical about it..

There was a fantastic article I had to read for one of my classes, called "Communion: Ritualized Cannibalism". I cannot remember who wrote it but the author mapped out the evolution of religion juxtaposed with social development. Made a lot of sense to me!

That's almost offensive! But I like it!

Pa, that is an excellent e-mail i read it all, and rarely does one challenge the 'pastor' its more or less taken to be authority...

You brought up excellent points , one being one must live the example they are advocating in practice, and at all times..

One, should also learn of things in that learning one discerns the value from the worthless..

I would be curious to know his response...

I have to share my ex husband changed the way his church views divorce by speaking up , he changed it for the better for alot of folks and now he runs a group that encourages members to divorce in love to great success...He always tells me he was inspired by the way we changed the form of our marriage to a great friendship, and thought it could help others....hopefully this helps you stay hopeful and keep your voice....Good things do happen....

I do feel that the members are jsut as responsible for bringing in change and new ideas and i commend you for your courage and care.. the church is lucky to have you ...

Back in my early years, before Christianity, I did dabble in the Occult. That included manipulating the natural forces to produce a desired result. Just to use one example - when I was first starting out, myself and three friends who were all in it together, decided to perform a ritual to make it rain. There had been no forecast of rain, and we are far from the sea so we're not in an area that gets a lot of rain that can just "blow in" unannounced. We finished the ritual, there was a wind blowing and the temperature had dropped noticeably. That day, within two hours of completion of the ritual, my suburb was hit with the most fierce hail-storm seen in the area in 15 years (it was on the news - freak storm, no warning).

One could call it pure luck or coincidence, if one were inclined to view it that way. It wasn't the whole X-men thing where we controlled the storm and made lightning strike in the area we wanted - for all we know, it was just a storm that appeared out of nowhere.

That's the most obvious example, and the one that sticks out to me. But it has been my experience through life that there is a spirit realm that we as humans cannot see. This spirit realm does interact with our world, and it does affect our world. Magic is one way that people can try and access some of the power of that spirit realm. And it is effective. But to me as a Christian, to use this power would be to say to God who is my creator "Look, thanks for all the help, but I think I'll rely on something else for my power". That I will not do - I Trust only in God, he is my strength and power, my rock and fortress.

~ Regards, PA

Because no one believes it does not make unreal, and because many believe it hardly makes it real. My point is, magic is magic. I find it hard to understand how one could believe in some forms of magic but not others, because belief in one form requires faith, not empirical evidence. At what point do we realize its all fantasy? That walking on water and turning water to wine is just as fictitious as throwing fireballs and riding orcs?




Very excellent point, we should be careful when exposing children to unrealistic ideas and fantasy that can confuse them with how the world really works. But, I guess here in lies my confusion. If you are going to tell your children that cartoon magic is unreal, then why turn around and say bible magic is? As a parent, I want my children to know the real world. I think it is confusing to tell children Harry Potter and his magic are fiction and possibly evil works, then tell them Jesus walked on water, God made it rain frogs and parted a sea etc.

I guess my problem here is, one cannot really excuse something as fantasy because there is no proof it exists then turn around and promote something fictional which also lacks proof. This is very illogical, yet society (well much of it) seems to be ok with doing it.

I think you've been to all the wrong churches then. In all my days as a Christian, I have yet to meet a pastor who is considered the sole authority on the Bible. It is true that people out of Bible college have a greater knowledge of the Bible than many others. But they are not infallible, and people take the time to question them and challenge their views all the time.

At my church, back before our old pastor and assistant pastor left to go elsewhere, there was actually a bit of a running battle between the two of them on some issues. They both held different views on certain interpretations of scripture. When you have two pastors who both say different things, it's pretty ha rd to view them as the "authority". This is what I have experienced constantly. Different pastors have different views. Overall, the general theology is the same, and they preach the same message of Christ crucified. But pastors are not "the authority", they are just people who have studied through college and know a lot about the bible. It doesn't make them right, and it doesn't mean they can't be challenged. It happens all the time, to one degree or another.

~ Regards, PA

Using this argument, if I say Lord of the Rings is not real, then I also have to say the Bible is not real, because they are as real as each other. This stems from your belief that the Bible is fictional. The Bible does lack "proof" in the scientific sense, but it does not claim to be fiction. It does not make me hypocritical that I believe one but not the other. It is a fallacy to suggest that if we accept the Bible then we should also accept Lord of the Rings - one was written as fiction, known to be for entertainment only. The other was written as a serious and true account.

Now, whether you believe what that account says or not is a different matter. You can choose to not believe the authors of the Bible - they might have been lying, or hallucinating, or simply tricked by someone, or any other number of things. But it does not fit that if you disagree with them that it is the same as a piece of fiction written as fiction. That doesn't make sense.

Know what I am saying.

~ PA

Actually its not, no where in the book LOTR does it say "CAUTION THIS IS A WORK OF FICTION". Imagine something for me, imagine in 2,000 years someone has a copy of LOTR. The translate it across a few languages and know nothing of the original author other than speculation or the book itself (Which parts are narratives of the characters). Would you draw the conclusion the book is real or the book is fake? In that sense it could be just as real as the bible since it does not claim to be fictitious. Its not a fallacy to suggest accepting the bible is akin to accepting the LOTR. It is however PA, a fallacy to suggest that because the bible does not state it is a work of fiction that it is not. That is wishful thinking and guess work.




No, I don't know what you are saying for the reasons above.


A PURPLE ELEPHANT CAME INTO MY BED ROOM LAST NIGHT AND TOLD ME IT CREATED MANKIND TO LOOK AFTER ELEPHANTS ON EARTH.

I could state this is a true statement and not fictitious, because I, the author, does not state it is a fictional statement does not make it so. Ron L. Hubbard wrote the rules for Scientology, he states they are real.... Does that make them real? Did an extra-galactic emperor named Xenu imprison thetans on our planet? Because one fails to mention Hubbard's works are fiction does not add to their credibility, that would be a fallacy.

So using your reasoning, why should I accept "History of War - an account of the Second World War". It doesn't claim to be fiction either - of course, because it's a factual account of WWII. Imagine 2000 years in the future, this book is found and translated across a few languages. You know nothing of the author, or even of the war itself. Would you draw the conclusion that the book is real or fantasy?

If you state this as fact and believe it to be so, then so be it. I can choose to not believe your account, I think we both know that you are making this up to prove a point. But if someone really does believe this, I can only say "I don't believe you".

The fact that we do have people (Scientologists) who believe in the works of L. Ron Hubbard, says to me that I can disagree with everything Hubbard wrote, but it does not necessarily then go on to mean that it is "fiction". Hubbard may very well have believed everything he was writing - his followers certainly do.

So it becomes a matter of whether you trust the accounts. it just so happens that I trust the accounts in the Bible. It doesn't make a me a hypocrite to not trust the accounts of other Faiths. Accept all, or accept none. Whatever happened to discernment?

This is my final post on the matter, since we seem to be moving away from the topic of magic and into validity of the Bible.

~ Regards, PA

The only difference is one is permitted by God and the other isn't (being magic). Before I believed in God i was studying the dark arts, I was into some very occultic type stuff and have seen some crazy magic being down. I thought to myself evil reveals its face a lot easier than good does. People think that since we live in this modern day of technology that people doing magic is on the backburner and believe me it's not. People still go out in the forest and do occult activity all the time from drawing pentagrams with rocks to downright human sacrifice....believe it.

PA, some will agree with an ideology of inclusion and tolerance, others will not. You know that! Sometimes, one has to speak out against what he/she sees as injustice and strive for a greater good. However, this works both ways. It's all about perspective.

Don't lose hope, sir. Keep your chin up, your shoulders back and walk with pride! Just remember, it's only life. Take care!

That is the point PA. LOTR or HOW-WWII, neither states the validity of their claims. But even if they did that does not make them true. So how does one tell? Critical analysis and archeology. In the case of History of war, we go looking for epic battles of WWII, we look for other historical records that confirm the stories etc. For LOTR we go looking for orcs! And the bones of the other fantasy creatures, its epic battles and other historical works that confirm the stories within.

That is the only way we can validate the bible, through confirmation of its stories. Through archeology (which does really support biblical accounts), through critical analysis etc.
To kind of bring us back full circle, the bible claims magic is possible. I have never seen something "magic happen" and I would argue neither have you, because magic does not exist.

Do you really feel you made it rain? Did you repeat your experiment? What is more likely a few guys used a spell to induce the earth to change its weather and make it rain? Or rain happened to coincide with you attempt at a spell. Why is there is still a million dollars sitting the in the James Randi fund after all these years for anyone that do something magical? Because it is not possible.




You are entitled to disbelieve my point, especially because it lacks any evidence. Belief in my point would be silly, it would also be faith. Supernatural (or magical if you will) events in the bible also require the same amount of faith as the purple elephant.




This is a fallacy, appeal to numbers. Because a large number of people believe in something does not make it real. Some of the most influential people of the early 20th century believed in eugenics. Think about this, they thought that there was a hierarchy of intelligence based upon race. People like Ernest Hemingway even thought this. They were all wrong however, and their beliefs, were in a fictitious idea.

Fiction, means an account based upon imagination and not necessarily fact. We, as humans, are very good at turning our observations into fiction. It is our nature to embellish stories, draw illogical conclusion and believe our own lies. Our only defense against such behavior is critical analysis and logical thought.



From our old friend Merriam



Saying one form of magic or faith in the supernatural is real, but others are not, is hypocritical. Of course you will say it is not (who wants to be called a hypocrite), but that does not change the fact it is. Whether you believe in walking on water by Jesus or flying on gryphon's and fighting ogres, both lack any kind of evidence and both require faith to believe. Whether you believe in turning water to wine or throwing fireballs with your hands or changing the weather through druidic spells...All require faith, as they lack any evidence that such things are possible. So to denounce one, because lots of people "dont believe" in it, or your religion does not allow for belief in it, is hypocritical.

You can't have the cake and eat it too, here PA. Either magic (all magic) is real and possible or it is not.

Depends on how you look at magick. Like dreaming is the same as magick to me(its the natural place for it imo). So lucid dreaming is basically giving you your chance at the more harry potter style magic if you want it. So anotherwords to you guys throwing fireballs is.. insanity, but what if you did it during your lucid dreams.. does that not count as being able to consciously throw fire(like magic)? You are lucid after all, and dreams are usually so real its why you generally dont know your dreaming.. I mean its not easy to go lucid and then throw fire... I used to have trouble with it and I was much better at throwing lightning in lucid dreams because its thinner, so its easier to think across the room. It's like trying to connect the dots and fire is thicker, so its not as easy as connecting lightning across the dreaming environment. Or thats what I found anyway.. back in the days when I just wanted to do cool tricks.

So yeah.. I can teach my son to throw fire or lightning in his dreams too, no matter what this world belives is 'real'.. because that is the place to do it. Thats where that style 'magick' is possible.. and I dont have to shy away from telling him it doesnt exist. When in reality... it does.

Oh yeah and I liked the OP... it was a good read.

Usually we put the rocks in a circle, the pentagram for the alter. When we pass the cake and wine we say "Eat, may you never know hunger. Drink, may you never know thirst. Then we sacrifice a bit of cake and wine in the fire for the Gods and Goddesses. I have never seen a blood sacrifice, among the Pagan I hang out with. You don't harm any living thing and that includes humans. Some are even vegens. I don't know what kind of Pagans you hang with, but I wouldn't go to a ritual with them they don't know anything about Paganism. When was the last time you heard about a human sacrifice by Pagans?

Remember to tap enough lands to play your spells

thank you for misunderstanding my point entirely. By the way, I don't believe in human sacrifice, or I would be a Christian. You just fell in with the wroing people, especially if they referred to amagic as "the Dark Arts". There is only one God with countless names. Please don't be offensive and categorize occultists as you do in your quote that I have highlighted in red. Why is it okay to bash Pagans and not Christians?

there are good and bad christians, just as there are good and bad pagans.
its sounds like you were just hanging out with murderous maniacs (glad you got out of that!)
and murderous maniacs come in all shapes and sizes, beliefs/religions, etc.

No forcast for rain...so I am guessing there were no dark clouds neither...then when you and a couple of others did the ritual to make it rain...all of a sudden out of nowhere is this rain and a storm ...amazing stuff PA...For usually when there is to be rain or a storm heading your way, ohh you can bet the met office soon brings it to your attention

If there had of been dark clouds...then I would say it was just a coincidence...!!
Where you not freaked out by this?...I know I would have been

So could God be in control of this magic? I wonder if God grants people this gift? And only those that know how to use it for all the right reasons, shall be able to preform such wonders like magic?


This is understandable PA, but I guess you could say the same when a prayer is answered....it's up to you how you want to view it...luck/coincidence? or the work of God?? ennie meenie minnie mo??

Well from reading your story..I will go with MO = it was magic, but controlled by GOD!!

As for me, I would still be weird about trying magic, I'd be afraid of it going all wrong

Thats kinda how I look at magick. I think that magick can almost be like saying you dont need the Creator though, because your will wants what you want.. which is ok.. but its not really the same as using magick with God. I find it hard to explain but I think its wise to almost give the intentions to God first and then let Him decide on if its going to happen in the real world or not. He is more understanding of details we might miss or just not understand. Like for example if you are really angry and want to punish someone with a curse or whatever, then I think its best to give that infomation to God and He will go from there and act accordingly. So I think thats the best way to use magick... you go through your deity so its their will that ends up happening.. not just yours so much. So in the end you dont have to worry about things going wrong or making mistakes.

Because Pagans eat babies?

It's always someone getting bashed in some way it seems.
It's not that bashing Christians is wrong, it's usually that the way they are bashed is as as effective and realistic as how the KKK bashes blacks and Jews. Notice how I always tease about "baby eating Pagans"? It's because it's a stereotype that is absurd, in the same way that "All Christians believe that the bible is 100% literal, or they aren't true Christians.", is absurd.

Yeah like Westboro baptists

If people took the bible literally they wouldn't have the ability to selectively pick and choose verses out of context which justify their prejudices or other self-serving methods.

I think we've been down this road before. I still maintain that any ancient religious text (or non-religious for that matter) can be used as a guide to a better life. It does NOT mean that you need to follow it to the letter. We've been here before, right? Like sacrificing a goat was applicable THEN, not now? Like not eating shellfish was applicable THEN, not now?

It's not a matter of picking and choosing the ones you LIKE, it's a matter of picking and choosing the ones that APPLY.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... there is a big difference even between Protestants and Catholics, etc... Some believers believe that the bread and wine are the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ, while other believers believe it is the representation of Jesus' body and blood... I hesitate to believe that anyone but a christian would feel that the blessed bread and wine is Jesus or a representation thereof. They may use these types of implimants in their worship and such, but the two are very different.

Believer= Christian

Can you prove that christians believe in human sacrifice? I KNOW Jesus never commanded to it, so...

Christ is the human sacrifice. He is the lamb of God, the Jews sacrificed lambs to honor their God. Jesus was killed for the sins of man, if that isn't a human sacrifice I don't know what is. Then to make matters worse you eat his body and drink his blood. Now you have cannibalism and human sacrifice and ya'll think we Pagans are scary.

you didn't get the point-it makes no difference whether you believe in con- or trans-, it's still magic.


what makes it weirder is that YHVH specifically forbade human sacrifice in Abraham's time.

Imagine that a man buys an old house in Vermont. It's been vacant for a long time, and he gets it cheap. It's somewhat rundown, and he plans to fix it up.

He starts cleaning out the attic, and finds an old box that contains some papers. It turns out to be an unpublished manuscript that is the result of a collaboration of Billy Graham, Deepak Chopra, Dr. Phil, Alan Alda, Oprah Winfrey, Bishop Fulton Sheen, Mother Teresa, Dr. Joyce Brothers, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and the Dalai Lama ... basically, every wise and/or "swell" person you could ever think of.

As he skims through the manuscript (he doesn't read every single word), he begins to realize that this is an absolutely amazing book, full of wisdom and timeless truths. He submits it to Doubleday. It gets published (under the title God is Wonderful, and the World Can Be a Perfect Place if People Just Stop Being Afraid All the Time and Learn to Love and Respect Each Other ... and Themselves, Too). It rockets to the top of the bestseller charts (eclipsing even the latest Harry Potter novel). The reviewers can't say enough good things about it.

People who read The Book claim that their lives are changed forever. Some of them quit smoking. The national crime rate drops. Israel and Egypt stop fighting each other. Hugs become more frequent. Men aren't ashamed to shed tears. A woman is elected President of the United States. George W. Bush finally decides to do the right thing, and kills himself.

So you decide to buy The Book and read it. And it turns out to be everything you ever heard it is! You are inspired to start exercising every day; you leave little love notes for your wife; you stop gambling. You become a different person, all because of The Book.

And then ... you get to page 237.

The third paragraph of page 237 says: "If you have a sister (or a niece or daughter) who's twelve years old, well, you might want to rape her someday. Don't get caught! The best way to make sure she won't tell anybody is to threaten her with death. Get a kitten, maybe three weeks old, and when you and Sis are alone, stab the kitten, right through the heart, and say, 'This is what happens to you, b****, if you ever rat me out!' And of course, Jews and ni**ers are more easily frightened than white people, and they aren't nearly as smart."

Your mouth drops open in horror. You can't believe your eyes! You just shake your head and continue reading.

The next paragraph blithely says, "For the average person, his greatest obstacle is that he isn't satisfied with his situation in life ..." The Book goes right on with its homilies and wisdom (and inspiring stories of heroism and self-sacrifice) as if paragraph three of page 237 weren't even there.

You go to your friends and show them page 237. They just nod and say, "Well, maybe you're taking that out of context. There are lots of things in life that we just don't understand." Or they say (with a knowing smile ... they've seen page 237 before, and somehow their heads didn't explode), "Yes, that is a strange passage, but there's so much GOOD stuff in The Book ... we should continue to read it and study it, and tell people to live by it."

Or they say, "You know, the Great Minds that wrote this wonderful book must have a higher purpose ... maybe we just don't understand it yet." Or, "This was actually written in the 1980's, wasn't it? People were different back then, and this kind of stuff wasn't even considered to be shocking. People just talked that way; they didn't mean anything by it." Or, "It's probably just allegorical. You know, symbolic."

And after a while, you start thinking that maybe you're the one who's crazy.

Question: How much disgusting, vile atrocity ... mingled in with a sweet lovefest ... is too much? If your six-egg cheese omlet had just one rat turd in it, would you still eat it?


Neutermorony 6:16-60

You are lucky to have a pastor who is both computer literate, and one to whom you feel free to speak openly. So my question is why didn't you cut to the chase? Can/should a christian play WOW. Thats what you really wanted to know, isn't it:)

I am a bad role model because, like you i think, i put fantasy magic (as with fantasy anything) into a different category from real experimentation.

There are probably two basic issues. How you feel you can best spend the time and talents you have, and how much, "magic" may distract you from the real things of life. Personally i think we all need some distractions from the real world but they should not come at the cost of losing sight of what is truly important to you as an individual.

I live in an area which still does not have broadband so I can't spend a lot of time on line, but I do spend some spare time playing lots of games like; warcraft, starcraft, oracle, diablo, age of empires etc They keep me off the streets and out of serious trouble with wild women, drugs, alcohol etc. You could try using that argument with your pastor:)

PS I am old enough to have read my father's "Amazing" and "Astounding" pulp magazines from the 1930's and 40's, watched the original star trek in black and white in the 1960's and absolutely loved buffy angel etc. MY wife and i spend most of our viewing time on the sci fi channel and firefly and Andromeda are two of our favourite shows. I also read 5 or 6 novels a week, from science fiction through historical, western and police procedural. I actually wrote many modules for Dungeons and Dragons, which my extended family played for hours back in the 80's before it was available as a computer game.

At the same time we are what most would define as fundamentalist christians and have a very close personal relationship with god. We read and study the bible every day, keep the commandments, and the spirit of love found in the bible.

It really is what is in your heart that counts, although I think you are wise to maintain a dialogue with your pastor, and listen to his advice.

PPS You will note that my advice pertains to fantasy magic. There is real magic in many forms, of which the manifestation of; god, angels and miracles is but one form. Sometimes you cannot avoid the paranormal/supernatural intruding into your life, and you do need to understand it, but because it is real it must be treated differently, and much more carefully, than fantasy magic.

Yup. (I'm a hungry b******, and I've worked in food-service, and hot sauce kills germs ).
Well put story. I see your point. But I don't think it accurately reflects the topic. But I do see where you are coming from.

What if you think you see a rat turd in the omelet, so you get sickened but look a little closer just to be sure, and find out that it was just in fact an extra large peppercorn, or a raisin? What you thought was something disgusting and sickening but in fact, when looked at in greater detail, turned out to be something quite different?

Of course, in the sense of this analogy on the Bible, you would have to read the passage in context to find out. Contextual study isn't as blithe as simply throwing away a passage as "oh, it must be out of context", or "we just don't understand all things". Contextual study is a lot deeper than that. There are many things to consider with context - not just what the individual verse says, but how it fits into the chapter, then how it fits into the book, then how it fits into the whole Bible. What style was it written in (historical, narrative, poetry, prophecy). Who was it written for (if known)? Who wrote it (if known)? Why was it written (was it a warning, a judgement, a call to celebrate, a call to persevere....). When was it written (Old Testament or New Testament). What part of the Old/New Testament is it (the Law, the writings, the wisdom books, or the prophets/ gospels or teachings or revelation). If we wrote a time-line of biblical events, where on that timeline does this event occur? What Greek/Hebrew words are used in the verse (may need a concordance for this part if you're not a Greek/Hebrew scholar). What words are repeated in the passage (repeated words or phrases usually denote special significance). What context is the word used in in this verse? What context was the same word (again, may need a concordance) used in different parts of the specific book (assuming it was used again), and what context did the same author use the word in within other texts they wrote - if they wrote more than one book, that is). What did the author originally intend their reader to gain from the text? Is it the same today?? It's never as simple as "look, this verse says this, so we should do this". Unfortunately, that's the easy way out and many people take that road, both Christian and non-Christian. It's a shortcut from the first part of context, reading the verse, to the last point, applying it to us today.

So next time you throw away a perfectly good omelet, just make sure that it's not just an extra raisin or two in the mix

~ Regards, PA

For the record, I agree with that page 237 is sick - Oprah probably wrote that one

Groovy post PA............. it sure wasn't mine baby...but I can't ignore the "naughty parts" of the bible and I was never able to justify them, even when I desperately wanted to . Mind slapped me good for trying

Totally understandable too MLR.
Some of them I believe (and there are many) can be explained via contextually placing the passage in the time it was written as we have discussed, while others are just so alien that we can't even begin to reconcile what the bible says is right, with what we feel in our own hearts/minds is right.

Keeping that in mind, is it then OK to totally ignore the good because of the bad?

Do we condemn all Muslims because some scream "Allah is great" as they blow up themselves and innocent men women and children?

Do we condemn all homosexuals because a few practice behaviors that society in general find offensive?

Do we condemn all Dustin Hoffman movies because of Ishtar?

I think choosing to follow anything blindly is a mistake, including the Christian Bible or the Koran. I also think dismissing all vegetables because brussel-sprouts suck is narrow minded and un healthy. See what I mean?

I see what you mean, but all the "Good" parts of the bible are far from original...

I know what you mean-been there-done that-biblical apologetics etc.

I can't have faith in something that's not solid

If my husband is wonderful to me but I "suspect" he may be a pedophile-possibly too many "hints" -then I will divorce him-see what I mean ? Can't live like this

I don't ignore all the good-but the whole thing has to be right if I'm going to dedicate my life to it not alone believe it

A good marriage is not perfect but it better be 80% great but if murder,rape,beastiality are part of that equation I'm OUT and we are talking about a perfect GOD for KFC's sake !

Mind has to be able to digest it-if I force it-it's mental rape to me



How can I live a lie and force myself to believe ?