I was under the impression the dragon battle was not a vision, but an event witnessed by many people. This is an important event in my book, concerning two important dragons involved in a non-lethal contest to decided whether the Romano British or Germanics should control Britain, something that would have important reprecussions much later on.

you can beleive psychic power and geno therapy over my theory

but do not assume that shapeshifting implies magic

bk2pt
i seem to recall a lizard that looked like the modern komodo but way bigger
it lived during the rise of mammalia

going by komodo traits these may be at least the serpents [dragons] that were slain in myth
do you recall the basilisk and cockatrice

i get you. i was trying to be open minded.
explaining the serpents [also refered to as dragon's] of the slayer myths with some science

and as i recall almost everyman who slays a "dragon" dies of their poisen.
that made me think of a komodo's specialty

the slayer myths may be unrelated to your case. People who saw these reptiles might have confused them with your dragons

i will avoid discussing this further to preserve the debates flavour around divinity of "plumed serpents" [thats the maian term].

i was incenuating that they may have never fought

and are just stupid enough to call a lizard a dragon.

humans are obviosly dumb enough to beleive the "liar-slayer" either way

so why not consider the prior as a possibilty

besides why do you need to get so defensive your opinions are valid. We are discussing this you know. with 4000 yrs to veil our veiw into the past, how distorted is the entire world's history

leaving room for freindly conjecture.

If they are real creatures why were the western ones all so mean and in need of slaying but the oriental ones were mostly benevolent. Thoguh the dragon myth is common in many cultures it is not the same character in all. Also dragons are not always depicted with wings. Chinese dragons and early norse dragons didn't. Are you saying these very early myths are a different species? I am currently more inclined to see them as symbolic, and this symbolism varies between cultures. There is also the idea that some legends were based upon the shape of a fiery comet. many unexplained events can contribute to the evolution of a myth.

The really interesting part of this passage is the word, "Our". Our image and our likeness. So who is he/ she talking about when he/ she is saying our?

originally in bibles etc, G-d was called "Elohim" (which is a uni-plural in the same way as house is to people and church is to congregation) ..do the math

that pic you posted has common symbolism in it, it's almost burgouis hehe.. the eye, and what seems to be 7 rings/layers just under it.. (nothing groundbreaking there.. why do you think God sits in a chair in the sky?)

I would like to quote Genesis 1:1 2-25 : Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (NIV) Let's take a look at this passage. The G-d we are referring to here is YHWH the creator of the universe. He said, "Let us make man in our image." Last time I walked down the street I didn't see any dragon people with scales, breathing fire and the like. I saw people that pretty much all look the same as each other. So if we are made in the image of G-d its doubtful that he's a dragon. I'm no expert in religion, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere in some of the passages I have read in the bible it also says G-d is spirit and he is omnipresent which means he is always everywhere at once. If you are a follower of Christianity then you believe that Jesus is G-d. If Jesus is G-d then G-d is a middle eastern man, and he probably looks like he's about 33 yrs old. If he's middle eastern he probaly has dark skin medium length dark brown hair as many people in that region of the world had at that time, and has a full beard and mustache. This is quite different than the pictures you see him normally portrayed as with blond hair and blue or brown eyes and white caucasian skin. In allot of Jewish theology it is believed that YHWH has both masculine and feminine attributes. However this belief in a G-d with both feminine and masculine attributes has not been mentioned much in modern popular Jewish beliefs. After some thought about what G-d might look like I came to this as a conclusion. He/ she made everything in the universe, if he/ she has the ability to do this I must imagine there's really not anything that he/ she can't do, or make himself/ herself look like. The really interesting part of this passage is the word, "Our". Our image and our likeness. So who is he/ she talking about when he/ she is saying our? I have my own theories about this but I'll save it for some other time. Its my opinion that if we all get to see the face of G-d or YHWH when we die then we'll be able to see what he/ she looks like then. I'd like to see what he/ she looks like too,and I have about a million questions for him/her but I'm in no hurry I can wait. There's too much to do while were alive you know. Heres a cool picture I found of what G-d might look like.
Click to view attachment Happy Chanukah, Merry Christmas, Happy Quanzah, Happy New Year, and Happy Festivas!

Before dismissing this out of hand, I would ask everyone read the whole post, and read it from the premise that Yahweh and El (Elohim) the actual Creator are two seperate entities, (as many serious Biblical scholars have proposed), with Yahweh actually being the one of many Bene Elohim, which also includes the creature Satan, long associated with flying serpents and dragons. I repeat, I am not proposing that "God is a Dragon", but that the Creator (El, Elohim), created "dragons" as assistants, that have been mistaken as our Gods around the world, including the "Watcher Dragon" of the Hebrews called Yahweh, who through a minunderstanding of scripture is now worshipped by most Christians and Jews as the actual creator.

Here are the facts:

1. The highest heavenly creatures are called Seraphim, a word which the highly esteemed and scholarly Jewish Enclyclopedia states means "fiery flying serpent", though medieval Christians have transformed these "dragons" into the more familiar, swan-winged, "cartoon" angels of popular culture. When the ancient Jews translated the word Seraphim into Greek, the word they used was drakon, which is the word our modern "dragon" is derived from.

2. The only graven image/idol Yahweh ever permits is that of a "fiery flying serpent", obviously his personal image, This image has supernatural powers, and Yahweh allows it to be freely worshipped in Solomon's temple. As soon as the idol is broken, disaster befalls Israel and it has never recovered until the late 20th century.

3. The flood story of Genesis is believed by most Biblical scholars to be a "retelling" of near identical, yet far older Sumerian versions in which the God name Enlil, who is also subservient to a greater Creator God is called "a Great Serpent-Dragon of Heaven". His hymns also associate him with rainbows as we see in Genesis, and he is called "the good shepherd".

4. Some scholars acknowledge that the Name Yahweh comes from the Cannanite Dragon God Yaw, who like the Biblical Yahweh is a god of storms and floods, but is a "son" of the true Creator Elohim, also the name of the Creator in Genesis, not Yahweh.

5. Virtually every world culture had identified the winged intelligent dragon as a real creature, and most of the earliest cultures recognize it as the creatue that brought them knowledge of agriculture and technology. This is also true in the Judaic legends with the reptilian "watchers".

6. In Exodous, Yahweh leaves his dragon sized tent, and flies ahead of the Israelites to burn away impassable briars and scorpions. He marks the route by spewing smoke and fire.

7. Yahweh plops his huge dragon body in the bed of the Jordan River upstream to divert its flow so the Hebrews can cross its bed to attack Jericho.

8. He is specifically described spewing fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils, exactly like the dragon like Leviathan that the Bible states he "plays" with. (A female dragon?)

9. Many biblical passages imply that Yahweh physically consumed his meat offerings unlike the "fake" gods of other cultures. The Bible is very specific that Yahweh wanted salt on his meat as well, suggesting these offereing were physically consumed and not merely burned to ashes.

10. Like many legendary dragons, Yahweh occasionally "consumes" humans as well, to include two of Aaron's sons who prepared a sacrifice wrong. In scripture, Yahweh demanded the first born of all Israelites, but the bible says it was possible to pay him money instead, on a sliding scale, also indicating the univesal dragon love of hoarding treasure.

11. The preferred prey of dragons in most cultures are "human virgins" for reasons which are not entirely understood. This trait is very apparent in the Bible as well, where Moses presents Yahweh with 32 Midianite virgins after the Israelite destruction of this tribe. No more is said of them so we can only assume they were "consumed" like Aaron's sons.

12. The Persian Zoroastrians, whom share much reiligous doctrine with Christianity clearly state in their own scriptures (the Denkard), that the "God" of Judaism and Christianity who watched of the Israelites and provided their laws was a dragon, and brother to the dragon Ahriman in their own religion. Interestingly, the storm dragon of Sumeria who flooded the world happened to be brother to the dragon Enki who livied the the garden of Eden and who "tricked" a man named "Adam" out of eternal life.

13. Some Christian gnostics also state Yahweh is a dragon in their scriptures.

14. Jesus stated the Pharisees were worshipping a creature that was NOT his father. Many Christians claim Jesus meant Satan, but this does not make sense, for the Jews clearly worshipped Yahweh and clearly recognized Satan as a distinctly different creature which they definately DID NOT worship. Could Jesus have been referring to the Yahweh dragon? After all he did not call to Yahweh from the cross, but to El. The first paragraphs of the Bible show these are two different entities, for El's creation story is completely different from Yahweh's, far less scientific one.

15. Yahweh is described with "feathers", as depicted on most of the most acnient dragon wings and this idea lasted until medieval times, after which dragons became less commonly seen. Saphira in Eragon is reminesecent of these ancient dragon depictions, and probably inspired the design of this character.

Actually there is enough evidence of Yahweh "being a dragon" to literally "fill a book", (as it indeed has, in my upcoming one on this precise subject des), but thought this is an adequate amount of Biblical facts to gender an interesting discussion.

Can anyone refute these Biblical facts? And shouldn't Christians want to embrace these facts, for the worldwide belief in dragons as benificent supernatural entities has far more theological and even scientific precedent than "a bearded old guy on a golden throne? Might it not be a good idea to recreate the fiery flying serpent image Yahweh ordered Moses to make, something very good that cured sickness, and which Yahweh allowed to be worshipped in his temple for centuries, Israel prospering during all the time it was worshipped, and was virtually annihlated as soon as it was broken?
And might there not be some volunteer virgins willing to appease Him for the good of all mankind, not to mention starting up a daily ration of unblemished calves and lambs like the good old days? And liqour. He asks for liquor in the Book of Genesis. (Actually a lot of the ancient Dragon Gods ask for liquor).

Angelic Beings Called (Seraphim) These are mentioned only two times in Scripture, but their description proves that they are angelic creature and heavenly beings: I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood these seraphims : Each had six wings: with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: and the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke....Then flew one of the Seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand,which he had taken with tongs from off the altar. And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away and thy sin purged" (ISAIAH). 6: 1-7. There are several types of Angles (Angelic Beings Called Cherubim)-(Angelic Beings Called Zoa or Living Creatures)-(Angelic Beings Called Archangels there are only Three, Michael The Archangel, Gabriel the Archangel and Lucifer the Archangel) - (Angelic Beings Known as Common Angels. hope this helps you............................

originally in bibles etc, G-d was called "Elohim" (which is a uni-plural in the same way as house is to people and church is to congregation) ..do the math

that pic you posted has common symbolism in it, it's almost burgouis hehe.. the eye, and what seems to be 7 rings/layers just under it.. (nothing groundbreaking there.. why do you think God sits in a chair in the sky?)

No, it only demonstrates how little you know about REAL Judao Christian beliefs. Nothing in that description suggests the Seraphim are not reptilian. A dragon would have a face, and arms, and wings! And as far as singing, if you used a "real" bible, you would know that in Psalms the Seraphim are called dragons and they sing praises to God here as well. In fact it is only dragons who do the singing, not swan winged "cartoon angels" stolen from pagan greco roman myths. All of the ancient sources support what I am saying, your ideas of humanoid seraphim are a very recent, "non-biblical, feel good, Christian mytholgy" that has nothing to do with the real Judao-Christian beliefs from the time of Jesus.

The expert Hebrew scholars of the Jewish Encyclopedia state the same thing, that the Seraphim are winged reptiles, and even the ancient Egyptians believed in the same creatues with the SAME NAME! They know this becasuse they actually understand Hebrew fluently, unlike the 19th century Methodist Sunday School teachers who wrote those worthless concordances that well meaning, but largely unknowing Christians people like you accept as the gospel truth. ALL of the ancient sources support what I am saying. None support your "modern Chistian mythology" that contradicts the ancient scripures. You do not even realize Lucifer was just a mistranslation about the prince of Tyre and King of Babylon. Jesus never mentioned a "Lucifer" becasue Christianity had not invented him yet! Even many mainstream Christians now understand this, and there are many books and websites to document this.

And we do not even have to go by the statements of modern scholars, becasue the ancient preserved scriptures found by archaeologists, like the dead sea scrolls prove this as well. When the Jewish Rabbis translated the scriptures from Hebrew to Greek, since Seraphim was a Egytian-Hebrew word, they picked the best word in Greek to describe these heavenly creatures of retribution. They are called Drakons, just as the humanoid heavenly creatures are called Angelos in Greek. These are the messengers. We know Christians believed these things up through the middle ages, because chruch mosaics, Bible covers, frescoes, etc, often depict the Isaiah scene, and the Seraphim are Dragons. And in virtually every illuminated medieval bible, in the chapters that describe God on a Cherubim, the cherubim is a DRAGON, not a chubby baby angel, that is "modern" christian nonsense.

Your modern Christian, pagan-inspried mythology has nothing to do with the real Judao-Christian beliefs of the ancient Christians that acknowledged dragons were as much heavenly creatures (and the highest ones of all in fact), as the piddling "angel" messenger boys. And as I have demonstrated in the OP, Yahweh himself is also one of these dragons, just as Jesus Himself warned the Pharisees. The real creator God is El. Thisis who Jesus calls to from the cross, not Yahweh. And the cannanite scriptures also state that El is the creator, and he has a favorite assistant, a dragon named Yaw. He was assigned as the personal protector of the Hebrews, but he was not a God, and certainly does not behave like one throughout much of the Old Testament. He behaves more like a "dragon" and now you finally know why.

Everything was rewritten by your Chritian "handlers" about 300 years ago when people know longer reported dragons flying across the sky, and they thought "Gee, nobody will take us seriously anymore if we leave all dragons in the Bible", though interestingly, things like stopping the sun to slaughter more canaanites, parting the Red Sea, and an ancient boat that contained every type of wild animal from every continent is way more realistic than heavenly dragons -- even though dragons are certinly the most universal and enduring supernatural creature in theologies around the word and from the dawn of civiliazation.

Man with your (Real Judao-Christian beliefs) your so smart, it make you (STUPID). Dragon are mention 35 times in the Old Testament and a Dragon is a Dragon. And a Seraphim is a Seraphim. in In Job the leviathan is a real Dragon. The word Dinosaurs was invented by Sir Richard Owns in 1841.Before that time they were know as Dragon.Yes I hate to tell you there was Dragons/ Dinosaurs in the old Testament. It would be hard to explain it to you because your set in your ways. Go to www.dr dino.com. Maybe he can teach you a few things about Dragons and Dinosaurs. He backs up all his teaching with Scripture.

Dragons are mythological and legendary creatures . They are metaphoric and negatively connotated .

originally in bibles etc, G-d was called "Elohim" (which is a uni-plural in the same way as house is to people and church is to congregation) ..do the math

that pic you posted has common symbolism in it, it's almost burgouis hehe.. the eye, and what seems to be 7 rings/layers just under it.. (nothing groundbreaking there.. why do you think God sits in a chair in the sky?)

El and Yahweh were orginally different entities, not only to the Hebrew, but the the cannanites as well, though Yahweh was a dragon called Yaw or yam. But as the OP states, the bible describes Yahweh much like a dragon as well (spewing fire, wings, hoarding gold, prideful, demanding animal and humans as food, etc.).

Before dismissing this out of hand, I would ask everyone read the whole post, and read it from the premise that Yahweh and El (Elohim) the actual Creator are two seperate entities, (as many serious Biblical scholars have proposed), with Yahweh actually being the one of many Bene Elohim, which also includes the creature Satan, long associated with flying serpents and dragons. I repeat, I am not proposing that "God is a Dragon", but that the Creator (El, Elohim), created "dragons" as assistants, that have been mistaken as our Gods around the world, including the "Watcher Dragon" of the Hebrews called Yahweh, who through a minunderstanding of scripture is now worshipped by most Christians and Jews as the actual creator.

Here are the facts:

1. The highest heavenly creatures are called Seraphim, a word which the highly esteemed and scholarly Jewish Enclyclopedia states means "fiery flying serpent", though medieval Christians have transformed these "dragons" into the more familiar, swan-winged, "cartoon" angels of popular culture. When the ancient Jews translated the word Seraphim into Greek, the word they used was drakon, which is the word our modern "dragon" is derived from.

2. The only graven image/idol Yahweh ever permits is that of a "fiery flying serpent", obviously his personal image, This image has supernatural powers, and Yahweh allows it to be freely worshipped in Solomon's temple. As soon as the idol is broken, disaster befalls Israel and it has never recovered until the late 20th century.

3. The flood story of Genesis is believed by most Biblical scholars to be a "retelling" of near identical, yet far older Sumerian versions in which the God name Enlil, who is also subservient to a greater Creator God is called "a Great Serpent-Dragon of Heaven". His hymns also associate him with rainbows as we see in Genesis, and he is called "the good shepherd".

4. Some scholars acknowledge that the Name Yahweh comes from the Cannanite Dragon God Yaw, who like the Biblical Yahweh is a god of storms and floods, but is a "son" of the true Creator Elohim, also the name of the Creator in Genesis, not Yahweh.

5. Virtually every world culture had identified the winged intelligent dragon as a real creature, and most of the earliest cultures recognize it as the creatue that brought them knowledge of agriculture and technology. This is also true in the Judaic legends with the reptilian "watchers".

6. In Exodous, Yahweh leaves his dragon sized tent, and flies ahead of the Israelites to burn away impassable briars and scorpions. He marks the route by spewing smoke and fire.

7. Yahweh plops his huge dragon body in the bed of the Jordan River upstream to divert its flow so the Hebrews can cross its bed to attack Jericho.

8. He is specifically described spewing fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils, exactly like the dragon like Leviathan that the Bible states he "plays" with. (A female dragon?)

9. Many biblical passages imply that Yahweh physically consumed his meat offerings unlike the "fake" gods of other cultures. The Bible is very specific that Yahweh wanted salt on his meat as well, suggesting these offereing were physically consumed and not merely burned to ashes.

10. Like many legendary dragons, Yahweh occasionally "consumes" humans as well, to include two of Aaron's sons who prepared a sacrifice wrong. In scripture, Yahweh demanded the first born of all Israelites, but the bible says it was possible to pay him money instead, on a sliding scale, also indicating the univesal dragon love of hoarding treasure.

11. The preferred prey of dragons in most cultures are "human virgins" for reasons which are not entirely understood. This trait is very apparent in the Bible as well, where Moses presents Yahweh with 32 Midianite virgins after the Israelite destruction of this tribe. No more is said of them so we can only assume they were "consumed" like Aaron's sons.

12. The Persian Zoroastrians, whom share much reiligous doctrine with Christianity clearly state in their own scriptures (the Denkard), that the "God" of Judaism and Christianity who watched of the Israelites and provided their laws was a dragon, and brother to the dragon Ahriman in their own religion. Interestingly, the storm dragon of Sumeria who flooded the world happened to be brother to the dragon Enki who livied the the garden of Eden and who "tricked" a man named "Adam" out of eternal life.

13. Some Christian gnostics also state Yahweh is a dragon in their scriptures.

14. Jesus stated the Pharisees were worshipping a creature that was NOT his father. Many Christians claim Jesus meant Satan, but this does not make sense, for the Jews clearly worshipped Yahweh and clearly recognized Satan as a distinctly different creature which they definately DID NOT worship. Could Jesus have been referring to the Yahweh dragon? After all he did not call to Yahweh from the cross, but to El. The first paragraphs of the Bible show these are two different entities, for El's creation story is completely different from Yahweh's, far less scientific one.

15. Yahweh is described with "feathers", as depicted on most of the most acnient dragon wings and this idea lasted until medieval times, after which dragons became less commonly seen. Saphira in Eragon is reminesecent of these ancient dragon depictions, and probably inspired the design of this character.

Actually there is enough evidence of Yahweh "being a dragon" to literally "fill a book", (as it indeed has, in my upcoming one on this precise subject des), but thought this is an adequate amount of Biblical facts to gender an interesting discussion.

Can anyone refute these Biblical facts? And shouldn't Christians want to embrace these facts, for the worldwide belief in dragons as benificent supernatural entities has far more theological and even scientific precedent than "a bearded old guy on a golden throne? Might it not be a good idea to recreate the fiery flying serpent image Yahweh ordered Moses to make, something very good that cured sickness, and which Yahweh allowed to be worshipped in his temple for centuries, Israel prospering during all the time it was worshipped, and was virtually annihlated as soon as it was broken?
And might there not be some volunteer virgins willing to appease Him for the good of all mankind, not to mention starting up a daily ration of unblemished calves and lambs like the good old days? And liqour. He asks for liquor in the Book of Genesis. (Actually a lot of the ancient Dragon Gods ask for liquor).

Hmmmm. IMO God is SPIRIT. No physical essence whatsoever. Now I guess if He wanted to take the form of a dragon, he could. But God is spirit, not material, not flesh....of any kind.

I am bring this thread up again for the benefit of Warrior for the Light as the discussion of the physical form of Yahweh was getting 'off topic' concerning "the animals in Heaven thread". But the statement above answers your question, Warrior. It is El, not Yahweh who is the creator God. Yahweh is actually a Seraph dragon, who was assigned to watch over the Hebrews (and explains why he was given a daily ration of lambs and calves, and captured enemy virgins on special occasions).

Yahweh is another name for God, such as Jehova is. A difference only in translations...
It clearly states this below here...Where are you getting your info that El is the creater, and more specifically that Yahweh is a dragon???? I dont find anything in the Bible saying this....



Exodus 6:2
And God said to Moses, I am Yahweh:

Exodus 6:3
I let myself be seen by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God, the Ruler of all; but they had no knowledge of my name Yahweh.


Exodus 6:6
Say then to the children of Israel, I am Yahweh, and I will take you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians, and make you safe from their power, and will make you free by the strength of my arm after great punishments.
( If he was a dragon it would say wing I would think)




Exodus 6:8
And I will be your guide into the land which I made an oath to give to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it to you for your heritage: I am Yahweh.


Psalm 83:18
So that men may see that you only, whose name is Yahweh, are Most High over all the earth.

Dragons have 'arms' as well as wings. The wings are mentioned a number of times in Psalms. The Spewing fire from his mouth in II Samual and Psalms.

Yahweh keeps saying "I am Yahweh" to moses to differentiate him from the original Creator, Elohim, who he serves as well.

This is identical to the cannanite belief in El the high god, and Yaw, a dragon assistant.

But Yahweh is GOD....the orig creator...

Where do you get the onfo that El is the "original" creator from???

And what psalms states this about dragons having arms/wings .... Post the quote and where your getting it from like I have done, so I can look it up please....

Exedus 6:2 clearly states that Yahweh is GOD.. there is no one above GOD....

Blessings

Being that Genesis has 50 books...can you narrow it down a bit to where I can find this?

And what verse in Isiah, and Samuel ..... and what psalms are you referring to???

Ive read around 10-15 books in the Bible referring to dragons and they all relate to snakes

Thanks

Why is this a problem to Christians? Probably because Satan is also described as a dragon, and the concept that these highest of heavenly creatures can be both 'good' and 'bad' is too complicated for some people to understand.

As for Yahweh spewing fire:

2 Samuel 22:9 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Smoke went up out of His nostrils, Fire from His mouth devoured; Coals were kindled by it.
King James Bible
There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Of course you can claim this is a metaphor, but the Bible also says he eats animals and is offered virgins, hoards treasure, is prideful, and is constantly 'consuming' enemies and disobedient followers. Does that all sound more like the Creator of the Universe, or a story about a dragon?

17 "He reached down from heaven and rescued me; he drew me out of deep waters.

18 He delivered me from my powerful enemies, from those who hated me and were too strong for me.

19 They attacked me at a moment when I was weakest, but the LORD upheld me.

20 He led me to a place of safety; he rescued me because he delights in me.

21 The LORD rewarded me for doing right; he compensated me because of my innocence.

22 For I have kept the ways of the LORD; I have not turned from my God to follow evil.

23 For all his laws are constantly before me; I have never abandoned his principles.

24 I am blameless before God; I have kept myself from sin.

Just reading the later verses makes me think that this isn't even some literal event. The writer is clearly using allegory here to insuate the wrath of God against the unjust, and how He rescues the just. This entire passage shouldn't even be interpreted as a real, historical event!!! Its symbolism, just as a huge portion of the OT is!!! Only bits and pieces of it are actually even true!!

Although I've got to tell you this whole 'dragon assistant' thing, while it has no credibility whatsoever, sounds pretty damn cool. I like the idea of a dragon 'plopping' down in the Jordan River as well as destroying everyone who crossed God and the Israelites. Sort of like God's pit bull. Haha. That's a really cool concept....

D.C.
Can you go back to the post you made 3 back and include for each numbered paragraph from where you are getting this info as fact..if from the bible add the passage please.....or what ever the source is your getting this info...

sorry it was actually brahmann that quoted your post 3 back... thats the one i ment
thanks

Exd 6:2
And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I [am] the LORD:

Exd 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Exd 6:8
And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I [am] the LORD.

Psa 83:18
That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.

And as for there being 2 versions of the creation in genesis... one telling of how adam was taking orders from a fire breathing dragon... gimme scripture... and dont come back with that "you dont know anything about the bible" bit you try to pull on everyone. Im not hearing it.

*edited for typo*

But how do these relate to your beleif that Jehova, (Yewah) was a dragon?

This is tru the creaters name is GOD, Jehova, Yewah...which ever on you choose....

Where is El as you claim? and where does it say he is a dragon? Thats what I dont get..

Thanks honey...

DC associates YHVH with Yam, a cannanite god of the chaotic sea...his name means 'sea'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_(god)

the problem here is that Baal Hadad is also associated by many with YHVH, whilst Yam is associated with Leviathan.

Yam is also called 'the seven headed serpent'....DC insists that a multi-headed dragon is an impossibility....like the hydra.

In the epic of Baal, where Baal Hadad and Yam battle, resulting in Yam's defeat, and death....Yam is conspicuously humanoid.
This is interesting, since while El is frequently called 'the bull', we see him 'twiddling his thumbs'.

DC believes that the hebrews initially had this pantheon, but were assigned Yam as their god, and so primarily worshiped him.

so for DC YHWH is Yam (also called Yaw, Nahar, Lotan).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotan


For most people things are not so clear cut....by a long chalk.

(hmmm, in which theology can we find a 'dragon' conspiring to usurp the throne of heaven, only to be defeated and cast out?)---i understand the problems with this parallel, but add it to demonstrate the lasting power of strong imagery.


The Epic of Baal might be worth googling.

But how do these relate to your beleif that Jehova, (Yewah) was a dragon?

This is tru the creaters name is GOD, Jehova, Yewah...which ever on you choose....

Where is El as you claim? and where does it say he is a dragon? Thats what I dont get..

Thanks honey...

DC associates YHVH with Yam, a cannanite god of the chaotic sea...his name means 'sea'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_(god)

the problem here is that Baal Hadad is also associated by many with YHVH, whilst Yam is associated with Leviathan.

Yam is also called 'the seven headed serpent'....DC insists that a multi-headed dragon is an impossibility....like the hydra.

In the epic of Baal, where Baal Hadad and Yam battle, resulting in Yam's defeat, and death....Yam is conspicuously humanoid.
This is interesting, since while El is frequently called 'the bull', we see him 'twiddling his thumbs'.

DC believes that the hebrews initially had this pantheon, but were assigned Yam as their god, and so primarily worshiped him.

so for DC YHWH is Yam (also called Yaw, Nahar, Lotan).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LotanFor most people things are not so clear cut....by a long chalk.

(hmmm, in which theology can we find a 'dragon' conspiring to usurp the throne of heaven, only to be defeated and cast out?)---i understand the problems with this parallel, but add it to demonstrate the lasting power of strong imagery.


The Epic of Baal might be worth googling.

You continue to disappoint me Grem. In the original Ba'al cycle, Yam/Yaw is not killed, he is defeated, but Asherah (who would become Yahweh's consort after Ba'als followers in Canaan were exterminated), asks Ba'al to spare him.

You should also know that many scholars connect Enki, The great dragon of Eridu, as his hymns proclaim, with th cannanite Yaw, also considered a dragon. And of course, Enki and Yahweh have very similar stories indicating Yahweh is Enki, or at least a combination of Enlil and Enki.

We have already seen how it was believed the 'great dragons' of the earth could assume human forms. The invincibility of the Leviathan in Job is symbolic of the invincibility of Yahweh, and both of them are the only creature able to spew fire from their mouths in the Hebrew scriptures. Some accounts state the Leviathan is a female, and Yahweh 'plays' with her in Psalms.