lol why am I not surprised? All we need now are crazy literalists FOR evolution!! These are stories!!! Meant to have SPIRITUAL significance, not to solve questions of science.....

Get serious, once again you show your lack of knowledge of God's word and use blatant lies and false claims. I would have thought you'd given this stuff up by now draconic chronicler. Here is a point by point answer to all your unfounded points and claims. As I did for you I ask you read the whole post.....


1. The fact that the Seraphim angels seems from their names and descriptions to have alot in common with dragons, and the creatures God created in the wilderness that have a similar name called seraph serpents, were indeed as the name says, serpents. Doesn't really have anything to do with whether the One God YHVH Elohim is in fact not one God but two seperate entities, nor does it suggest that just because a type of God's angels is dragonic like, that God, or from your point of view, the one known as YHVH is a seraphim or a dragon in anyway.

2. First off this statement is plain false. King Solomon decorated his Temple with Cherubims all over it. God fortold through his prophet that the third Temple will be decorated with Palm Trees and Cherubim on the walls/doors and such. AND God commanded that Cherubim (statues/images) be made on the cover of the Ark of the Covenant!!! Cherubim not being a dragon or dragon like type of angel, but a four faces four winged variety that God is enthroned upon. If a dragon, a serpent, or even a seraphim angel is the symbol or emblem preffered by God it's not shown to be so in history for history would suggest that he uses Cherubim as emblems on and around his most Holy made places not a dragon or seraphim. Second, the serpent Moses made is in no way suggested to be a physical appearance representation of God, nor did God ever condone his people worshiping the image. Because God allowed such worship of the serpent as well as all false idols they worshiped from time to time doesn't suggest it was what he wanted, on the contrary he frequently punished Israel for worshiping idols (but he gives us free will). When the image of the serpent was destroyed it was recorded as a good thing, King Hezekiah is praised as being a good King right before it's told he destroyed it and right after it's told he has destroyed it: 2 Ki 18:3 And he [King Hezekiah] did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. 2 Ki 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan (just like to note the serpent was named, and it wasn't named YHVH). And right after he destroyed it it's written....: 2 Ki 18:7 And the Lord was always with him; he was successful wherever he turned. He rebelled against the king of Assyria and would not serve him. 8 He overran Philistia as far as Gaza and its border areas, from watch tower to fortified town. Clearly God was pleased with Hezekiah, not angry with him for breaking his image, because the serpent wasn't an image of him. Now, it's true that the serpent made signified Christ, the faith in the statue healing the Israelites symbolizes the faith in Christ that heals and gives life, and the lifting up of the serpent by Moses symbolizes and foretells of Christ's ressurection and rise to his Father in Heaven. But clearly, Jesus was no dragon, but the Son of Man, the Son of the Living God. The sufferings of Israel that would later come to it after the serpent's destruction were due to a confluence of events, mainly the continuance of King after King of both Israel and Judah as well as most of the people continually turning away from God.



3. Biblical knowledge and the truth of God's word can not be found or compared to other works from heathens or any other people. A story that was wrote down first does not make it the actual truth of an event. A story written by man, and in the case of summerians probably transcribed from the mouth of satan or one of his angels, is either a non first hand account being that the man wasn't there or a partial truth littered with lies by a fallen angel. Whereas the Biblical account is the Word of God from the mouth of God, a first hand account since he was there, and the truth since he IS the truth.

4. The Cannanites were a cursed people, and once again if it's not biblical word it can't be compared to it since it's bound to be flawed. And regardless, as you know most cultures have revered dragon or serpent like images or animals throughout history, so the cannanites doing so is nothing new, nor does it prove or show anything. Elohim means God. When Moses asked what God's name was, he answered by saying Ehyah-Aher-Ehyeh he continued thus shall you speak to the Israelites, Ehyeh sent me to you. From this God (Elohim) who was speaking to Moses gives him his name which is properlly spelled Yod Heh Vav Heh (YHVH). It's meaning translated as: I Am That I Am; I Am Who I Am; I Will Be What I Will Be. The Name YHVH from it's root HVH meaning To Be. And what is Jesus? I AM. God's name, Elohim's name being YHVH. God being ONE. The Lord Jesus not being a dragon! God not being a dragon, his name meaning I AM. His name meaning my nature will become evident by my actions.

5. Where are the watchers described as reptilian???? If I recall aren't just about all angels reffered to as watchers?

6. And Hashem was going before them by day in a pillar of cloud, to show them the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, to go by day and by night. He did not remove the pillar of cloud by day, or the pillar of fire by night, from before the people. ...... Where did you get all that other stuff you mentioned??? Are you making things up now????



7. Again, complete fabrication!!! You have no source for your information, your just making things up. I thought you were saying YHVH was a dragon not a behemoth mentioned in Job?

8. Does God not enjoy all his creations? A female dragon??? "Can you fill HIS skin with darts or HIS head with fish spears? Lay a hand on HIM and you will never think of battle again."

9. Physically consumed by the Fire of the Lord, as he displayed many times in public. It's never seen or stated that the Lord chewed or swallowed his burnt offerings. Common sensely he BURNT (consumed with Fire) his Burnt offerings. It's also written then they gave up pleasing odor's unto the Lord. He only came down and consumed the offerings in Fire on special occasions, other times just allowing the Priests to burn them unto him, the odor of their sacrafice pleasing the Lord.

10. Again, the sons were killed by Fire, not by being eaten by a dragon. It's written God is a consuming Fire, not God is a consuming dragon. The first born are told to be given over to the service of the Lord, not for food, the Lord loathed the sacrafice of humans that the heathens had done. The practice of redeeming the first born being a prepetual sign of Christ to come and a symbol of passover (which Christ is the Paschal lamb of) done because God had killed the first born of egypt, the blood of the lamb redeeming Israel's first born and therefore the first born of Israelites requireing a small price to pay unto the Lord for their first born.

11. You refer to Numbers 31:18 not only does in not mention the number 32 in either the King James Version I have or my Jewish Bible. But it never mentions anything along the lines of what you claim. The Medianite women were ordered to be destroyed by the Lord that had known a man because they were the ones that were sleeping with the Israelite males and inducing them to sin and blasphem. But the virgin women, or the women children that had not known a man (being a virgin) that obviously were not the ones who were inducing the Israelites to sin were spared. The Jewish bible translates but spare every woman that has not had carnal relations with a man. The King James translates keep alive for yourselves. CLEARLY, God states and his word indicates the women were SPARED/KEPT ALIVE, not given over to a dragon to be eaten!!!!!

12. Again comparing non scripture to scripture to explain what the scriptures say/mean..... It can't be done. The summerians were corrupt, as the book of enki shows from it's begining the writer is influenced and dictated to by a fallen angel whose words he writes down. A bag of lies wrotten down.

13. The gnostic scriptures also state women needed to undergo a sex change to be saved don't they???? Sex change, be a man, become a man, something like that.... The gnostics were heretics, not believing in God's true word but changing it, even stating people were saved from the flood by space ships if I recall.

14. Jesus said they didn't know his Father for those that knew his Father knew the Son and they didn't know him. Clearly, the Pharisees (alot of them, not all obviously) but the higher ups, were corrupt and didn't worship God properly with their heart or know him. But nothing suggests they worshiped a dragon, nor a dragon by God's name.

15. The fact that God is said to shade people under the shadow of his wings and such does not make him a dragon. All you do is make wild assumptions and claims that have no real basis of fact or reality. God is not a dragon God is YHVH and Elohim is YHVH, God is ONE.

And on top of all that, lets not forget that some of the prophets such as Enoch have come before the throne of God and seen the likeness of the Ancient of Days. When they saw God a dragon is not what they saw.

I think the true word of God says it best, so I'll leave this last bit to one of his greatest works written down by his Prophet Isaiah:

“But now hear, O Ya’aqob My servant, and Yisra’el
whom I have chosen. Thus said YHVH who made you and formed you from the womb,
who helps you, ‘Do not fear, O Ya’aqob My servant, and Yeshurun, whom I have chosen.
For I pour water on the thirsty, and floods on the dry ground. I pour My Spirit on your
seed, and My blessing on your offspring, and they shall spring up among the grass like
willows by streams of water.’ “One says, ‘I belong to YHVH; another calls himself by the
name of Ya’aqob; another writes with his hand, ‘Unto YHVH,’ and names himself by the
name of Yisra’el. Thus said YHVH, Sovereign of Yisra’el, and his Redeemer, YHVH of
hosts, ‘I am the First and I am the Last, besides Me there is no Elohim. And who is like
Me? Let him call and declare it, and lay it before Me, since I appointed the everlasting
people. And the events that are coming and those that do come, let them declare these to
them. Do not fear, nor be afraid. Have I not since made you hear, and declared it? You are
My witnesses. Is there an Eloah besides Me? There is no other Rock, I know not one.’ ”

TheEssenceofExcellence' date='Jun 13 2008, 02:09 AM' post='2342740']
Get serious, once again you show your lack of knowledge of God's word and use blatant lies and false claims. I would have thought you'd given this stuff up by now draconic chronicler. Here is a point by point answer to all your unfounded points and claims. As I did for you I ask you read the whole post.....

DRAC: Okay, I have read your whole post, and you can refute nothing I said with scripture. Nor have I made any false claims or blatant lies. I have responded to each of your points in red font

1. The fact that the Seraphim angels seems from their names and descriptions to have alot in common with dragons, and the creatures God created in the wilderness that have a similar name called seraph serpents, were indeed as the name says, serpents. Doesn't really have anything to do with whether the One God YHVH Elohim is in fact not one God but two seperate entities, nor does it suggest that just because a type of God's angels is dragonic like, that God, or from your point of view, the one known as YHVH is a seraphim or a dragon in anyway.

The Seraphim dragons are just one more piece of evidence. The main point is that the Mesopotamian gods that do all the things Yahweh does in Genesis (build garden of eden, deprive Adam of eternal life, flood earth, save Noah, etc. ) are ALL attributed to either Enki or Enlil who are both called "Great Serpent Dragons of Heaven". Many scholars trace Yahweh to these gods, and who couldn't with the virtually identical stories. This does not mean Yahweh is fake, it just means He was in Sumeria first and was called Enki there. And Abraham came from a town very close to Enki's city and garden of Eden. Go figure.


2. First off this statement is plain false. King Solomon decorated his Temple with Cherubims all over it. God fortold through his prophet that the third Temple will be decorated with Palm Trees and Cherubim on the walls/doors and such. AND God commanded that Cherubim (statues/images) be made on the cover of the Ark of the Covenant!!! Cherubim not being a dragon or dragon like type of angel, but a four faces four winged variety that God is enthroned upon. If a dragon, a serpent, or even a seraphim angel is the symbol or emblem preffered by God it's not shown to be so in history for history would suggest that he uses Cherubim as emblems on and around his most Holy made places not a dragon or seraphim. Second, the serpent Moses made is in no way suggested to be a physical appearance representation of God, nor did God ever condone his people worshiping the image. Because God allowed such worship of the serpent as well as all false idols they worshiped from time to time doesn't suggest it was what he wanted, on the contrary he frequently punished Israel for worshiping idols (but he gives us free will). When the image of the serpent was destroyed it was recorded as a good thing, King Hezekiah is praised as being a good King right before it's told he destroyed it and right after it's told he has destroyed it: 2 Ki 18:3 And he [King Hezekiah] did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. 2 Ki 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan (just like to note the serpent was named, and it wasn't named YHVH). And right after he destroyed it it's written....: 2 Ki 18:7 And the Lord was always with him; he was successful wherever he turned. He rebelled against the king of Assyria and would not serve him. 8 He overran Philistia as far as Gaza and its border areas, from watch tower to fortified town. Clearly God was pleased with Hezekiah, not angry with him for breaking his image, because the serpent wasn't an image of him. Now, it's true that the serpent made signified Christ, the faith in the statue healing the Israelites symbolizes the faith in Christ that heals and gives life, and the lifting up of the serpent by Moses symbolizes and foretells of Christ's ressurection and rise to his Father in Heaven. But clearly, Jesus was no dragon, but the Son of Man, the Son of the Living God. The sufferings of Israel that would later come to it after the serpent's destruction were due to a confluence of events, mainly the continuance of King after King of both Israel and Judah as well as most of the people continually turning away from God.

Even the famous ancient Jewish Histotrian Josephus, who was a contemporary of the apostles stated that in his time nobody knew what a Cherub looked like......... BUT we know they decorated the temple right? We KNOW exactly how one of the holiest items in the temple was decorated, becasue the Romans depicted it on the Arch of Titus with the loot of conquered Jerusaelm. The HOLY Menorah's base is decorated with DRAGONS . And in the original Sumerian Eden Story, Adam is escorted out of heaven by two DRAGONS, that are called Cherubim in the Hebrew version. Go Figure.

It only your opinion that Yahweh was not angered by the destruction of the idol. But we see terrible things begine to happend shortly after it is broken. HALF the Christian world in Roman times (Gnostics) believed Jesus was the wise serpent/dragon in the Garden of Eden who tried to bring wisdom to mankind. He even implies this, and although I do not have the scripture handy, in the New Testament there is a verse that states Jesus' true form was not 'like a man', though he does compare himself with the serpent idol made by Moses.



3. Biblical knowledge and the truth of God's word can not be found or compared to other works from heathens or any other people. A story that was wrote down first does not make it the actual truth of an event. A story written by man, and in the case of summerians probably transcribed from the mouth of satan or one of his angels, is either a non first hand account being that the man wasn't there or a partial truth littered with lies by a fallen angel. Whereas the Biblical account is the Word of God from the mouth of God, a first hand account since he was there, and the truth since he IS the truth.

Abraham came from Ur, a short distance from Eridu, where Enki built his garden. Of course they knew these stories, but becasue they told them as a oral tradition, they changed slightly. The talking dragon of Eden tricks Adam out of Eternal life, in the original story, and something fairly similar happens in the original. The dragon is not made to look 'good' in the oldest version so it is silly to think Satan created this story.

4. The Cannanites were a cursed people, and once again if it's not biblical word it can't be compared to it since it's bound to be flawed. And regardless, as you know most cultures have revered dragon or serpent like images or animals throughout history, so the cannanites doing so is nothing new, nor does it prove or show anything. Elohim means God. When Moses asked what God's name was, he answered by saying Ehyah-Aher-Ehyeh he continued thus shall you speak to the Israelites, Ehyeh sent me to you. From this God (Elohim) who was speaking to Moses gives him his name which is properlly spelled Yod Heh Vav Heh (YHVH). It's meaning translated as: I Am That I Am; I Am Who I Am; I Will Be What I Will Be. The Name YHVH from it's root HVH meaning To Be. And what is Jesus? I AM. God's name, Elohim's name being YHVH. God being ONE. The Lord Jesus not being a dragon! God not being a dragon, his name meaning I AM. His name meaning my nature will become evident by my actions.

Yaw (Yahweh) had a long feud with Ba'al Hadad of the Cannanites. There was a love triangle between him, Hadad, and the female diety Asheroth, which archaeologists say was worhsipped by the Hebrews along with Yahweh. Yahweh got his revenge by bring the Israelites to Canaan where they killed most of Baal Haddad's worshippers. When Moses introduced himself, some scholars think he said "I am EA", the current Babylonian name of the old dragon Enki of Eden.. NOT the rather ambiguous "I am that I am". In fact, in Hebrew it actually makes more sense.

5. Where are the watchers described as reptilian???? If I recall aren't just about all angels reffered to as watchers?

In Enoch I, they are decribed looking like serpents. Since almost every human culture had dragon gods in their earliests stages (including the Hebrews), it is logical to assume the wattchers were dragons. Deuteronomy states each human tribe was allocated a 'Son of God' , and the Hebrews got Yahweh, the cannanites , Haddad, etc.

6. And Hashem was going before them by day in a pillar of cloud, to show them the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, to go by day and by night. He did not remove the pillar of cloud by day, or the pillar of fire by night, from before the people. ...... Where did you get all that other stuff you mentioned??? Are you making things up now????

I have made nothing up. As far as the pillars of smoke and fire, in two places, Yahweh breathes fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils.

7. Again, complete fabrication!!! You have no source for your information, your just making things up. I thought you were saying YHVH was a dragon not a behemoth mentioned in Job?

I never compared Yahweh with the Behemoth. I believe the Behemoth is merely an elephant.
8. Does God not enjoy all his creations? A female dragon??? "Can you fill HIS skin with darts or HIS head with fish spears? Lay a hand on HIM and you will never think of battle again."

This ballad mocks the idea of mere man hurting the Leviathan, who is the only other creature in the Bible that spews fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils.

9. Physically consumed by the Fire of the Lord, as he displayed many times in public. It's never seen or stated that the Lord chewed or swallowed his burnt offerings. Common sensely he BURNT (consumed with Fire) his Burnt offerings. It's also written then they gave up pleasing odor's unto the Lord. He only came down and consumed the offerings in Fire on special occasions, other times just allowing the Priests to burn them unto him, the odor of their sacrafice pleasing the Lord.

Burnt offerings is not a proper translation. The bible states the offerings where carefully roasted and salted and they smelled deligcious to Yahweh. They WERE NOT burnt. Surely you heard the story in the Bible how Yahweh actually consumed the offerings while the priests of Ba'al could only burn theirs up. Yahweh actually calls the offerings his FOOD in the old testament, I will try to find the passage.

10. Again, the sons were killed by Fire, not by being eaten by a dragon. It's written God is a consuming Fire, not God is a consuming dragon. The first born are told to be given over to the service of the Lord, not for food, the Lord loathed the sacrafice of humans that the heathens had done. The practice of redeeming the first born being a prepetual sign of Christ to come and a symbol of passover (which Christ is the Paschal lamb of) done because God had killed the first born of egypt, the blood of the lamb redeeming Israel's first born and therefore the first born of Israelites requireing a small price to pay unto the Lord for their first born.

The Bible says Yahweh spews fire from his mouth, not that he is a literal fire. Half the Christian world and the Persian empire identified him as a dragon. Children were sacrified to Yahweh long before the Exodous, surely you know this, it is in the Bible. The whole point of smearing the blood on the lintels of the houses in Egypt was so the Seraphim dragons would smell the blood in the darkness and "pass over" those houses. It had nothing to do with Jesus. Yahweh says in Exodous that the first male issued from every womb, including human wombs were to be his offerings. LATER, in Deuteronomy, he allows the babies to be ransomed for GOLD. Yes, like every self respecting dragon, Yahweh loved his treasure pile.

11. You refer to Numbers 31:18 not only does in not mention the number 32 in either the King James Version I have or my Jewish Bible. But it never mentions anything along the lines of what you claim. The Medianite women were ordered to be destroyed by the Lord that had known a man because they were the ones that were sleeping with the Israelite males and inducing them to sin and blasphem. But the virgin women, or the women children that had not known a man (being a virgin) that obviously were not the ones who were inducing the Israelites to sin were spared. The Jewish bible translates but spare every woman that has not had carnal relations with a man. The King James translates keep alive for yourselves. CLEARLY, God states and his word indicates the women were SPARED/KEPT ALIVE, not given over to a dragon to be eaten!!!!!

The bible clearly states that Yahweh's 'share' of the virgins were 'given' to him. They were 32 in number. If you really, really cannot find this, I will show you. I suggest you use one of the internets parallel bibles.

12. Again comparing non scripture to scripture to explain what the scriptures say/mean..... It can't be done. The summerians were corrupt, as the book of enki shows from it's begining the writer is influenced and dictated to by a fallen angel whose words he writes down. A bag of lies wrotten down.

You do not know if the older Sumerian scriptures were dictated by a fallen angel. The Hebrews did not even believe Satan was a fallen angel. He is simply an obedient servent to Yahweh, and apparently also a dragon (his offspring perhaps?) These do not seem to be lies. It seems as if the Hebrews merely embellished the original stories a bit.

13. The gnostic scriptures also state women needed to undergo a sex change to be saved don't they???? Sex change, be a man, become a man, something like that.... The gnostics were heretics, not believing in God's true word but changing it, even stating people were saved from the flood by space ships if I recall.

No, it is well known that the gnostics gave women a greater role in the early church, NOTHING about sex changes. In fact, the whle thing about Mary Magdalen e and Jesus comes from gnostic scritures. Nothing about flying saucers either..

14. Jesus said they didn't know his Father for those that knew his Father knew the Son and they didn't know him. Clearly, the Pharisees (alot of them, not all obviously) but the higher ups, were corrupt and didn't worship God properly with their heart or know him. But nothing suggests they worshiped a dragon, nor a dragon by God's name.

That's not what Jesus said. He said the Pharisees were worshipping a 'Murderer from the beginning' (Yahweh), and not his father (Elohim). They were NOT worshipping Satan. Thier prayers were to Yahweh, no one else. Yahweh kills MILLIONS in the Old Testament. Satan kills a handfull, and only with the PERMISSION of Yahweh. El and Yahweh are do different entitites, or rather, El is the creator entity and Yahweh is one of his 'dragon' creations, the one assigned to the Hebrews, just as there were dragons assigned to the Chinese, Maya, Sumerians , etc. Dragons were probably used by the creator because they were the earliest "advanced" animal that would make suitable servants/assistants. This is why there are world wide dragon legends.


15. The fact that God is said to shade people under the shadow of his wings and such does not make him a dragon. All you do is make wild assumptions and claims that have no real basis of fact or reality. God is not a dragon God is YHVH and Elohim is YHVH, God is ONE.

Several Biblical scholars maintain El and Yahweh are two different entities, EXACTLY like El and Yaw are different. And yes, in the Cannanite theology, Yaw is considered a dragon as well, and subservient to the Creator El. The Hebrews and the Canannites had the identical theology, and many cannanite psalms are in the bible. The only differecnce was that the hebrews triabl diety was Yahweh, and the cannanites tribal diety was Haddad. both also worshipped El. Many scholar believe the Hebrews were not monotheistic until AFTER the Babylonian captivity.

And on top of all that, lets not forget that some of the prophets such as Enoch have come before the throne of God and seen the likeness of the Ancient of Days. When they saw God a dragon is not what they saw.

Yahweh warned Moses that no man could look upon him and not die. Yes, Enoch, Baruch, and Isaiah all saw heaven, and ALL recorded seeing the dragons! Okay, they are dragon in Enoch and Baruch, but fiery flying serpents in Isaiah, becasue this was written in Hebrew, not Greek. Isaiah reported that Yahweh was surrounded by these fiery flying serpents, so this may be why he didn't die, Yahweh was obscured by them. Or was the god in heaven actually El and not Yahweh?
I think the true word of God says it best, so I'll leave this last bit to one of his greatest works written down by his Prophet Isaiah:

“But now hear, O Ya’aqob My servant, and Yisra’el
whom I have chosen. Thus said YHVH who made you and formed you from the womb,
who helps you, ‘Do not fear, O Ya’aqob My servant, and Yeshurun, whom I have chosen.
For I pour water on the thirsty, and floods on the dry ground. I pour My Spirit on your
seed, and My blessing on your offspring, and they shall spring up among the grass like
willows by streams of water.’ “One says, ‘I belong to YHVH; another calls himself by the
name of Ya’aqob; another writes with his hand, ‘Unto YHVH,’ and names himself by the
name of Yisra’el. Thus said YHVH, Sovereign of Yisra’el, and his Redeemer, YHVH of
hosts, ‘I am the First and I am the Last, besides Me there is no Elohim. And who is like
Me? Let him call and declare it, and lay it before Me, since I appointed the everlasting
people. And the events that are coming and those that do come, let them declare these to
them. Do not fear, nor be afraid. Have I not since made you hear, and declared it? You are
My witnesses. Is there an Eloah besides Me? There is no other Rock, I know not one.’ ”


After the return from the Babylonain captivity, the Hebrews were no longer polytheistic. The creator El, and the physical, eating, tribal entity Yahweh, were merged together into one god with characteristics of the previous two. The brilliant Thomas Paine said:

"It is not a God, just and good that the Bible describes, but a devil".

He is partially right. The creator god of the universe (El) cannot be the murderous, jealous, prideful, greedy, child and lamb eating Yahweh that the Bible describes. This is why Jesus said the Pharisees were not wroshipping his father.. Understand that I am not saying Yahweh is a devil. Like man, he is imperfect. We have no right to even judge him by human stardards, for he is a prehistoric flying, carnivorous reptile, that in fact, did some remakrable things as the Bible records. It is a good thing for Christians to learn the truth, for like Thomas Paine said, Yahweh cannot be the creator. Read the Old Testament again, from this point of view, and it will make far more sense...... or just wait for my book. Every good Christian will at last be able to give a great sigh of relief, that the probably well meaning, but often monstrous Yahweh, CANNOT be the father of Jesus and the creator of the univers.

Dude i remember telling you this before, nor matter how much you twist scripture, God is not a dragon. Im not contesting their existence as a specie at one time or another, but god aint a Dragon. I also have asked you in the past, if you know what Yaweh literally means, you did not know. I remind you it means the Eternal in Hebrew. Get over it man, God is not a dragon and if some ancienct people called their gods, by names which are of serpant dragons, this does not mean that god is a dragon, it could mean, they got it totally wrong like many religions have done and still do.

“But now hear, O Ya’aqob My servant, and Yisra’el
whom I have chosen. Thus said YHVH who made you and formed you from the womb,
who helps you, ‘Do not fear, O Ya’aqob My servant, and Yeshurun, whom I have chosen.
For I pour water on the thirsty, and floods on the dry ground. I pour My Spirit on your
seed, and My blessing on your offspring, and they shall spring up among the grass like
willows by streams of water.’ “One says, ‘I belong to YHVH; another calls himself by the
name of Ya’aqob; another writes with his hand, ‘Unto YHVH,’ and names himself by the
name of Yisra’el. Thus said YHVH, Sovereign of Yisra’el, and his Redeemer, YHVH of
hosts, ‘I am the First and I am the Last, besides Me there is no Elohim. And who is like
Me? Let him call and declare it, and lay it before Me, since I appointed the everlasting
people. And the events that are coming and those that do come, let them declare these to
them. Do not fear, nor be afraid. Have I not since made you hear, and declared it? You are
My witnesses. Is there an Eloah besides Me? There is no other Rock, I know not one.’ ”

You posted the above verse, what you fail to realise is this, Ya/aqob and the other are jewish prophets, in arabic the Ya'aaqob is known as Yaqub etc. Eloah, means god, in arabic which is a sister language to hebrew, coz they are bretheren and both semetic, the word is Rab. El, simply put is god, like in arabic it is ilah, but arabic gods name is Allah, which becomes unique, no gender, and only suitable for the true Eloah, El or Ilah. YHVH is jewish equivlant to Arabics Allah, but its a name in hebrew which literally means eternal, and again that is an attribute belonging only to god. Elohim is another word of for God or gods, in context, Yaweh says, I am alpha and omega besides me there are no Elohim, (meaning other dieties or gods) not dragons. They are not names of Dragons, your assumptions and assertions are fanciful at best.

Applause, Applause, Applause! Standing ovation Applause........

Ive had it too.

Too young to realize...

DC, probably your biggest mistake here is that you are assuming that the Pagan Gods were actually real entities. The debate about the Judeo-Christian God aside, there is really no good reason to believe that Enki was a real entity or that he built a garden. You are assuming something that is clearly not true.

what star-sign was enki? he was a capricorn

I have a question DC! Where did you find a Dragon in the Garden of Gods/Eden, are you still trying to say that Enki,
is a Dragon? If so, exactly how did you come to this conclusion.



Regards,
Tom

Very simple., and I have quoted it here before. His ancient hymns, FAR older than the Bible, plainly states he created a great garden in EDEN for his people by Eridue, and that he, Enki, IS the Great Dragon who Stands In Eridu. Nor can this only be an Epitaph, for in another hymn, his form is described, a great, scaly, sharp toothed, claw footed monster.

Whooah guy, Why shouldn't Enki's story be at least at accurate as the bible, when we are able to did up the nearly 5,000 year old cunieform tablets that say he did all the things in Genesis that Yahweh does?

And technically, Enki is no longer Pagan when it is clear he is actually Yahweh by a different name.

Dude, I NEVER said God was a dragon. I said the Seraph dragon Yahweh is a dragon, who works for the Creator El. I am not dreaming this up, this is Original Judaism which is identical to the Cananit beliefs. El is the Chief God, and each tribe, including the Hebrews have a Bene Elohim (son of God/dragon god). Every culture had them, though the best rmembered are those of Mesoamerica and China.

I have posted scholarly articles here that show that the Hebrews were originally montheistic, and recognized El as the supreme God and Yahweh as their personal/tribal God. Google Hebrew Henotheism and Polytheism and you will see that I speak the truth.

Be very glad the the cruel, prideful, paronoid, virgin eating Yahweh IS a dragon, and not the Creator God.

In sumerian Enki/EA means the house of water. Just because some "Hymn" depicts him as some great, scaly, sharp-toothed, water beast you call him a Dragon? (Do you concider Ea as a water-dragon)? Besides, it was a hymn to obviously praise Ea; this in no way means this is what he actually looked like. This is all based on mythology DC.

As well, Enki's symbols always include a goat and a fish.

Personally on the Elohim meaning, I believe El is the canaanite father God, and Elohim refers to the people
that God/El chose as human rulers, the Sons of God. This is not saying that there were two Gods.

the hymn is translated today as saying 'the great dragon who stands in eridu'
they had no concept of dragon then.
he is called ushumgal
it is not an epitaph.....but an epithet.

the later(much much later) assyrio-babylonian hymn is one that describes not enki, but Sassu Wunnu, a form of ea....this does not mean that it was ea's true form, but a personification of a vengeful aspect of the god.....similarly it does not mean it was enki's true form....the concept by this time had evolved.

he is mostly depicted as a humanoid with the 2 rivers flowing from his shoulders, or as a manfish, or as a capricorn (half fish half goat).

In all of the hymns, stories, prayers he is humanoid. but he is called many things in metaphor, similie, metonymy.......like....furious serpent, eagle's claw, great flood, wild bull, great serpent, shepherd, great bull of erudig, and so on.....he is not physically any of these.

the same goes for Enlil, who is also often called 'great bull' etc, but by far the most common epithet for him is 'Great Mountain'.

you can find all of these here.....
http://www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/edition2/etcslbycat.php

if anything the serpent allusion is quite marginal, far more frequent are references to bulls....and that goes for not only all of the gods (who wear multiple bull horn headresses) but to heros of prowess.

there are examples of hymns and dedicatory prayers that make no suggestion that he is a dragon.

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section2/tr2562.htm
a hint as to why so many epithets are used for enki (and the other gods) is that they 'surpass description'. they are not conceived of as great serpents literally.

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section2/tr25424.htm
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section2/tr254b.htm

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr114.htm

dragons dont need boats or punting poles.


http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr113.htm

This is the openning address in Enki And The World Order, it is a similar flattering address we might find used towards kings etc. It is not a literal description of him actually being a dragon....its a protocol, a convention, literary, ritually and courtly.
We find similar examples all over the place to human kings, gods etc.....the romans and greeks frowned upon the tradition when they encountered it....it still goes on today, often in public or formal greetings.



http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr112.htm

clearly humanoid.



using the literature of the Sumerians to suggest that Enki and Enlil were literally dragons is a very weak argument considering the evidence.

Ah, of course DC, I thought you'd bring up that point. From where I stand, and I know we stand on two different places, there really is no reason to believe that either the Bible or other ancient mythologies are literal stories. I consider the Bible to be of the same mythological merit as any other story that has come out of antiquity. Obviously I would not think that the constellation Orion is actually where the Gods put Orion's body in the sky, and in the same sense, nor do I believe that Moses parted the Red/Reed sea. Were I to merit one and not the other, wouldn't that be hypocritical?

Ha ha, true true DC

Heres my idea, DC, and I'll take your spin on it. I think that the Semite Hebrews came out of Arabia or that area, there abouts, whatever happened in Israel happened in Israel (sorta like Vegas), and is, in the large part, lost to history. Once the Jews were exiled to Babylon, they borrowed the ancient Sumerian, Assyrian, and Babylonian myths, with which they embellished their own stories, which is how the Pagan influence was seeded into the Judeo-Christian myth. I think thats probably how it happened. I don't really know enough about the ancient Mesopotamian myths to contest you on any points, so if you say Enki was a dragon or dragon like deity then ::shrugs:: I can't really contest that. But I don't think that Enki, YHWH or Zeus were actual entities. I think that they are different cultures ways of reaching out for a higher power. I believe a higher power exists, but I don't think its a dragon or Jesus or YHWH or whatever.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but not the part about getting sumerian ideas in Babylon. These ideas go back to the earliest traces of the polytheistic Judaism. What happened in Babylon was that they first got their MONOTHEISTIC ideas from the Perisan Zosoastrians who conquered Babylon and released them. This is pretty much common knowledge among Biblical scholars.

Where we also disagree is the fact that people since the dawn of time, mankind has reported seeing dragons, and eerily similar dragons, all over the world, often with even the same behaviour. And cretures that may be these 'dragons' are still seen with regularity, and even photographed now in the 21st century.

Understand that I never claimed dragons were true gods with extradordinary powers. The Biblical Yahweh's miracles are not so miraculous. He diverted the Jordan by putting his big dragon body in it at a narrow defile. The Bible even says where the place was. He is a flesh and blood creature that actually ate the lambs calves and virgins, and drank the liqour, and possibly uesed it to awe the yokels with fire breathing tricks.

never said Yahweh was a creator god, but that world wide beliefs indicate that these dragons were the assistants to a higher power. Even the original Judaism stated that Yahweh was just one of many of these creatures, one allocated to each human tribe to watch over it. I believe my explanation/book will make very good sense to anyone who understands it fully, and concedes that there is a 'higher power', as it quite neatly explains virtually everything in a plausible manner, one the basic idea of a 'higher power' is acceptable to the reader. The dragons, in a way, are little more than programmed, organic 'robots' of a higher power that wanted to insure the survival of a naturally sentient species on this planet and undoubtedly orthers.

Yes, they believed the dragon gods could assume human form. Shape shifting is mentioned in the stories. When the scholars see a humanoid God with a dragon next to them, they usually say this is to show they are dragons currently in human form. And we do know what these dragons looked like, for the Gudea Vase depicts Ningishzida and Dumuzi, the two gate guards of heaven, holding the gates of heaven, and they are Mushushu dragons. The Mushushu associated with Marduk is probably there to remind everyone his father is the dragon Enki, or that he too can become a dragon at will.

While the hymns sometimes say things like "Virile AS a bull", when it comes to dragons, there is no 'lik' or 'as' in the commentary. The hymns plainly state the high gods ARE dragons. But obviously you cannot hobnob with humans and enjoy human pleasures when you are in your enormous and terrifying dragon form, so unless you are punishing the wicked or devouring your fatted calves, you maintain the human form. I do not believe the dragons could actually change their forms, though they may have had human surrogates to stand in for them in the times the dragons actually lived in the early City States.

really? i dont think so. do you have evidence that a dragon was their real form, and that they only assumed human form?


true, but not all gods can do this, Dumuzi has to ask for the magical help of his parents to achieve a transformation into serpent form.



can you provide evidence to support this?





I disagree with this interpretation.



This is speculation. Ive also heard that it is Ningishzda that sits beside him because the Ningi fertility cult became very powerful, like the cult of Dionysis.


no, they are also called Great Bull, or Great Mountain, without 'as' or 'like'. They are not similies as you suggest, but in every case...including ushumgal...are metaphoric epithets.

where?



Speculation.

The links i provided support my case, the whole corpus of Sumerian literature does not support your assertion. You base your whole case on one or two metaphoric epithets. as i said earlier enlil and enki are called Great Bull with far greater frequency.

Wonderfully put, Grem *claps a bit*

While I'm not going to argue the rest of that post DC, because I think on certain things its better to just agree to disagree, I don't recall YHWH diverting the Jordan with his body. You are referring to when Joshua and the Israelites crossed the Jordan, right?

Yes, that is the incident I refer to, and the account specifvfically mentions the place where Yahweh blocked the river, a narrow defile. So it was clearly understood this wasn't some magical mumbo jumbo, but simply a large creature blocking the river at its narrowest point.

You can claime it is all speculation, but then how can you explain why the Hebrews stated a 'talking serpent that walked' tricked Adam out of Eternal Life if Enki was generally believed to be a serepent dragon?

Ever scholar states the Genesis serpent comes from the Adape and the Southwind story. So here we have a talking serpent dragon who has a servant named Adam (Adape) in a garden called Eden?

You see, Grem, no one can refute that to the Hebrews, Enki was remembered as a sentient serpent dragon in Eden who deprived Adam of eternal life. This is black and white, and IMPOSSIBLE to refute........ you lose.

Ok DC, I'm going to have to call you out on this:

3:11 Behold, the ark of the covenant of the LORD of all the earth passeth over before you into Jordan.

3:12 Now therefore take you twelve men out of the tribes of Israel, out of every tribe a man.

3:13 And it shall come to pass, as soon as the soles of the feet of the priests that bear the ark of the LORD, the LORD of all the earth, shall rest in the waters of Jordan, that the waters of Jordan shall be cut off from the waters that come down from above; and they shall stand upon an heap.

3:14 And it came to pass, when the people removed from their tents, to pass over Jordan, and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people; 3:15 And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,) 3:16 That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.

3:17 And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.
Joshua, 13:11-17

The only thing that makes the river stop flowing is the ark of the covenant. Not a dragon.

Read 3:14 again. It states the exact place where the water backed up, and I have been there. This is not to say the dragon wasn't an excellent 'showman', and was able to 'time' the event quite well. If this was 'magic', the water would be backed up in front of their eyes, so all could see. After all thats where the ark was. So if it were magic, it should effect the water close to it, not many miles upstream.

DC... the priests walked into the jordan, carrying the ark, and the waters subsided.

Also, keep in mind DC that many of the events in the beginning of the Bible, probably up to around King David, are more likely than not mythological or fictitious accounts of the history of the Semitic peoples as they migrated into Canaan. Even once you get to King David the history is still a little dubious. Was there a King David? Probably, but most likely not what we think he was like. It would seem he was made into a sort of 'larger than life' character, as is want to happen when stories are passed down year in and year out.

I understand the 'minimalist' view, but the premise of my book is that the Old Testament is the story of Yahweh the dragon and his worshippers. And it all works quite well, and quite compatible with the historical record.

::shrugs:: Ok, whatever works for you. I'm curious DC, a little off topic maybe, but do you think that any of these Gods actually exist? Or rather, existed?

Irrelevant when talking about the Sumerian Enki. As you admitted earlier the Hebrews religion was not exactly like the sumerian, the creation story has similar ingredients and is likely to be based on the earlier Sumerian story, but the emphasis is clearly different in many respects.

We can not conclude from this that Enki was generally believed to be a serpent dragon, the corpus of Sumerian literature that i linked earlier demonstrates this clearly. Enki is only called 'great serpent' and 'furious serpent' on one or two occasions as a metaphoric epithet.....the frequency of him being called Great Bull is much higher. The Sumerian literature makes clear that his true form was humanoid, but able to use magic to transform his appearence.

Your own favourate source 'Bible Origins.net' investigates this 'ingredient' into the Eden story. The process by which the 'serpent' in the story came to be is not as straight forward as to say 'he is enki, so enki must be a serpent/dragon'; Ningishzda and Dumuzi are also brought into the equation. The etiological myth explaining why 'the snake has no legs' is also brought into the story.

I am aware that in the Sumerian story Enki dissuades Adapa from the food and drink of the Gods, saying it would bring him death, when infact it would have given him immortality.
In the Eden story the serpent persuades Eve to eat the fruit which gives the knowledge of good and evil, against the commandment of God.
in the Sumerian story Enki shows a wisdom we cannot understand by denying man immortality, whereas the fault in the Eden story is with Eve and Adam themselves going against a commandment they knew, by favouring the temptation of a harmful serpent.....the emphasis is different.
The whim of the gods is excluded from the Eden story, man is himself responsible for his own suffering.

In Chaucerian terms, a story has to have both 'sentence' and 'solas' for it to be successful, 'solas' is the entertainment part...the bringing together of known motifs and conventions, literary/mythical traditions etc. And the 'sentence' is the 'moral' if you will, the lesson.
That man is himself responsible for his own suffering is the 'sentence' of the eden story, the means by which this is expressed is the 'solas'. motifs from etiological myths, and from previous- perhaps 'parent' cultures, are included....but this does not mean that 'the serpent' is Enki; it is more of a device in the story.
The Hebrews, like the Sumerians clearly never really saw 'dragons'. For instance, if the serpent lost his legs in the first generation of man.....how could quadrupedal dragons exist? The story, as part of its 'solas' explains why serpents crawl on their bellies, and have no arms or legs.

Im sorry you see this in terms of a game, winning and losing...for me getting a clearer picture of history is the most important thing here. As i demonstrated in the previous few posts the argument that the Sumerian Enki was a dragon is incredibly weak. To try to salvage something you have had to go outside Sumerian culture, to try to prove what Sumerian culture itself does not support.

edit:
Since you havent answered any of my questions, i suppose the answer is 'no' in each case.

a much more feasible explaination was that the river was diverted upstream using basic engineering, we can see this practice in a number of ancient stories.
Far more rational than conjouring some impossible creature to come and block the river is the likelyhood that Hebrew sappers diverted the flow with stones + earth. Your interpretation of the story is entirely speculative, the fact that you have been there means nothing to the power (or lack of it) in your argument.

God is not mentioned here in physical terms, he does not lie accross the river, and nothing suggests that he is a dragon.
Entirely speculative= not reliable.



But we're not talking about your book, we're talking about actual history, and the actual theology of the Hebrews. You have yet to prove that JHVH was Yam, and that Yam was Enki, and that Enki was a dragon. just by saying....'yeah i know the real version, but my version has Yahweh as a dragon' is meaningless. you try to explain these stories from this standpoint without any suggestion that your premise is correct, or that the story supports it; you have to use your 'creativity' to fill in the gaping holes.

It is just as valid as saying 'but my version has Yahweh as a Chimpanzee god....he blocked the river with bannanas'