I must agree! Being that I do not know enough about sumerian mythology, I will bow out.

There is nothing about the mushushu that states it must be a composite. Archosaurs have all of the same physiological features. Your observations are as ridulous as the story about the "Elephant and the Blind Men". "It must be a snake becasue one felt its writhing trunk, etc).

Many reptiles have sharp claws. But since felines do too, you think it must be a composite, imaginary beast? Don't be ridiculous. You have read enough of the literature to know that several scientists believed the Mushushu to be a real, extinct animal, becasue unlike ALL OTHER MYTHIC CREATURES in the Levant, only the MUSHUSHU remained in a consistent form in art for literally thousands of years, and thousands of years after that, we see dragons like the one on the Welsh flag that anyone in the acient middle east would immediately identify as a Mushushu.

It is you who speculates. If the hymns state Enki is a great dragon, then that is what they believe him to be. And this is to be expected if he is a son of Tiamat. But if he can change into human form, then it is human nature to believe this his his favorite form because it is natural for humans to believe they are superior. Even Ishtar/Inanna is called a great dragon in her hymns.

You can see this same human nature at work in a dearth of fantasy novels today. Many have shapeshifting dragons, but the dragons prefer their human forms because of all the human ammenities, and only become dragons when danger threatens. Humans think the same ways now as they did back then. It is highly likely that this is the explanation for the Sumerian "great dragons" who look like men (and women). It may be as simple as the fact that since they came from 'Heaven', they must assume their dragon forms while in heaven. And this is no different than the Christian belief that 'angels' are spirit creatures in heaven, that assume the form of flesh and blood humans while on missions on earth.

You are the one with the greater speculations Grem, not I.

Im obviously going to disagree, if the depictions of the mushushu arent enough to convince you that the creature was made up of the bits of other animals then the incantation provided above should confirm this....your assertion flies in the face of the evidence presented before it.....the very evidence it attempts to use.



sorry i dont need to respond to this. just hot air.




i have shown otherwise, and dont need to repeat myself ad nauseum, if by now you are unconvinced i think the reason lies with you rather than the evidence and argument.







Rather....i am the one presenting evidence.

You have presented nothing. Several scientists believe the Mushushu was based on a real creature, because it never changed like the composite fantasy monsters. We see what is essentially the mushushu on the Welsh flag 5000 years later.

I am amazed by your inability to comprehend that if the ancient hebrews did not remember from their Meseopotamian origins that there was "a great dragon of eridu" who made a garden in eden, then there would never have benn the talking, walking "serpent" in the Genesis story. Do you really think that can be a coincidence?

Like it or not, the evidence all supports the fact that the Sumerian high gods were "great serpent-dragons of Heaven", exactly as thier ancint hymns proclaimed.

I have not really payed much attention to the these draconic threads but what are they about DC? Just so have historical knowledge? Or are we supposed to go back and worship dragons again? Are they returning so we have to prepare for them? Are they physical beings or spiritual beings able to manifest in the flesh? Just four little questions I thought would ask to be a bit more informed of your views.

As ive said DC you cannot prove that Enki was a dragon, and that people believed him to be an actual physical living dragon.

All you have alluded to is one metaphoric epithet in Sumerian literature. While there are many epithets that Enki had, and many of them in literature are used more frequently.....Like 'Great Bull'.

He is never depicted as a 'dragon' in Sumerian art. Though he is depicted in a number of 'guises'....if he were really a dragon in his 'true' form, why would we not have one???
The symbols we recognise as his are not dragons.......why?

I have not seen any conclusive evidence that the mushushu seated by Marduk is Enki, just theories......there are other theories as ive mentioned.

~Again, Why would Enki have a mushushu like aspect (called Sassu Wunnu) if he himself was really a mushushu???
I can only conclude that Enki to the sumerians was as he is depicted, and written about......

It is probable that by the time Enki was called EA, the original hymns that established his orignal form was a dragon had been all but forgotten, but it was still remembered he could become a dragon. Therefore, the Babylonian hymn simply stated that by this time it was only one of his aspects, much like Zeus being though of primarily as humanoid, but who could become a Gander or Drakon when he had his 'fun'.

But we go back to the most ancient times, Enki is called a dragon, as are all the high gods, his relatives like Ningishzida are sometimes depicted as literal mushushu dragons, and for reasons that should be obvious to everyone, the ancient Hebrews belived that there was a walking, talking serpent in Eden, the exact same place Enki created, just as he created the first humans to live in that Garden.

Sorry Grem, if it were not for the Genesis story of the talkin serpent of Eden you might have a case.

Mostly for the historical knowledge. It is pointless to worhsip the dragons now for they were never more than 'assistants' to the real creator, and the real creator does not require worship. Worship, and the offering of animals (and sometimes people) were simply ways the dragons were 'paid' for their sevices as tribal guardians and teachers, and Yahweh was little different from the rest. There is nothing they can teach us now, except perhaps humility.

Obviously, they were/are physical creatures or they would not require and demand lambs, calves, first born chldren and liqour. They are perhaps still among us, but when seen today are regarded as sea serpents and lake monsters. Perhaps they have some 'powers' which enable them to constantly elude researchers, though it may simply be the fact they are as intelligent as us, as well as possessing the acute senses of a predatory archosaur.

Thank you DC. I do notice too many cultures, unconnected and unrelated, at least through modern perceptions, have the image of the dragon or large serpents. So there is something to it all of it definitely.

Have you ever seen a Dragon Dance during a Chinese New Years celebration? I have seen two or three. They are very interesting. The Hand consider 'Descendants of the Dragon' as a term that describes their ethnicity. Did dragons in your view mate with humans? Do humans have dragon genes?

this is speculation for which you have no evidence.

please provide these 'hymns'.....i provided one that gives his metaphoric epithet as Ushumgal (great serpent), but showed that he is called other things more frequently, where are the others?

Well, Clovis, I can throw my two cents in. The Han, especially the Imperial family, did consider themselves to have some relation with the dragon. Likewise, Cecrops (the legendary half-dragon founder of Athens) and Alexander the Great (supposedly conceived by Zeus in the form of a Drakon) are a coupe of examples in the west. It is possible that these were rulers and noblemen who wanted to be associated with the power and lineage of the dragon (even today the dragon is associated with the heraldry of many noble families), or this could be an expansion of the dragon's foondness (both east and west) for young women. Or, something else entirely.

My theories about the dragons that mankind universally revered actually do not violate science. No, humans could not mate with reptiles and produced offspring. But as with dragons in general being real, sentient creatures that became mankind's earliest gods, there is probably a kernel of truth in the idea of dragons being the descendents of human leaders not only a symbolic sense, but in a biological sense as well.

We know that in many ancient cultures, the dragons were believed to have the ability to change their form into a human. What brought about this idea? Perhaps the dragons did not wish to be bothered with the day to day ritual of playing god in a temple, so they recruited surrogates and tricked their worshipper into believing the human surrogates were them. Perhaps if the dragon had a red hide, it would dye the human surrogates skin red to render a partially supernatural appearance.

So if a human female were impregnated by the dragon impersonator, the resulting child would be believed to be the offspring of the dragon. The dragon surrogates were probably 'eliminated' and replaced before they grew old, so not to give away the deception. Perhaps their faces were obscured by elaborate beards as was the mesopotamian style.

Dude, to say Yaweh is actually a dragon is to call the jewish God a dragon. As i said before, yaweh simply means eternal and you have to understand hebrew, like arabic to fully understand the meaning and context of verses. For example, El, is simple translated as god in english, in arabic, Ilah, means god, even Il can, Elohim according to you means sons of gods, and these sons are dragons, elohim is a plural term if im correct, it something i need to recheck, for gods, because the jews did divert to paganism even during moses reign, and for this action they wondered the wildreness for 4o years. I am simply trying to say, that serpants were used in metaphoric and real terms, the latter refering to adam and eve in the garden of eden.

Now just to give an islamic perspective, which is very similar, it also refer to a serpant, and it is further elaborated on by the prophet in hadith, saying that the serpant then did have legs etc, and even snakes today have sharp teeth, but it does refer to serpants once having legs, the fact that this serpant carries the devil in his mouth and get him in side the garden of eden, as a result its punishment was to crawl on its belly till the end of times. This could be translated as dragons and as i said i dont refute their very existence at sometime, but the bible does not refer to them in the context you are refering to, its merely speculation and one could also speculate the serpants and monsters the bible refers to maybe dinosaurs indicating that man has been here longer than we think and walked with the dinosaurs etc, it also believe the mankind then was much larger themselves compared to today.

You see when you say El, you simply saying god, but when you Yaweh, this was a name given to one true god, bu the jews, meaning the the eternal. The jews also called many of their prophets as sons of god, but in a literal meaning, but metaphoric and in the sense that these men are of god and do his work, like Ezra, in Arabic he is called Uzair.

Aswell as the mistranslations and misunderstanding of the hebrew, your are incorporating pagan deities, with judaic ones. Ofcourse mesopotamia and mesoamerican civilisation had pagan gods, dragons you name it, just because the stories have commanalities does not mean that the pagan gods were a reality and existed, it simple means, that the message about Yaweh, god, or the one true god, has been present throughout all time and come to all nations, hence similarities in stories of eden, adam and eve etc. These commanilities are the true aspects of those pagan religions and todays monotheistic religions, if the same stories are repeated throughout time, with out any contradiction or conflict, then they are reconciliatory in their substance. For example, Hinduism is one of the oldest religions of the world, and its probable the most polytheistic of them all, yet when you analyse the scripture, it refers, to only one true god, but gives many names for this god, which happen to be attributes of the same god, yet people have decided to make those attributes and those names as seperate gods, human error again. But what one cand deduce from the scripture is that, its teachings are common with that of islam, judaism, christianity etc, yet today they seem poles apart. Simple put, what the hindu scriptures say from 1000's of yrs ago, is then repeated again, in the bible, torah, quran as common teaching and beliefs, one could say they copied the other, but thats the easy way out, afer analyses, its clear they dont or have not copied each other, simple meaning that the message sent by god has always been the same, but tampered and changed by man, and to find the truth, you come to common ground amongst all the world religions and you find they have alot in common than we think.

Its a bit long winded and off on a tangent, but what im trying to say is, because something maybe in common with something else, it simple mean its the truth being repeated and confirmed at later stages, but to take those commonalities and then try and mix them with differences, i.e the pagan gods and think they were real is mere speculation at best.

Dude, to say Yaweh is actually a dragon is to call the jewish God a dragon. As i said before, yaweh simply means eternal and you have to understand hebrew, like arabic to fully understand the meaning and context of verses. For example, El, is simple translated as god in english, in arabic, Ilah, means god, even Il can, Elohim according to you means sons of gods, and these sons are dragons, elohim is a plural term if im correct, it something i need to recheck, for gods, because the jews did divert to paganism even during moses reign, and for this action they wondered the wildreness for 4o years. I am simply trying to say, that serpants were used in metaphoric and real terms, the latter refering to adam and eve in the garden of eden.

Now just to give an islamic perspective, which is very similar, it also refer to a serpant, and it is further elaborated on by the prophet in hadith, saying that the serpant then did have legs etc, and even snakes today have sharp teeth, but it does refer to serpants once having legs, the fact that this serpant carries the devil in his mouth and get him in side the garden of eden, as a result its punishment was to crawl on its belly till the end of times. This could be translated as dragons and as i said i dont refute their very existence at sometime, but the bible does not refer to them in the context you are refering to, its merely speculation and one could also speculate the serpants and monsters the bible refers to maybe dinosaurs indicating that man has been here longer than we think and walked with the dinosaurs etc, it also believe the mankind then was much larger themselves compared to today.

You see when you say El, you simply saying god, but when you Yaweh, this was a name given to one true god, bu the jews, meaning the the eternal. The jews also called many of their prophets as sons of god, but in a literal meaning, but metaphoric and in the sense that these men are of god and do his work, like Ezra, in Arabic he is called Uzair.

Aswell as the mistranslations and misunderstanding of the hebrew, your are incorporating pagan deities, with judaic ones. Ofcourse mesopotamia and mesoamerican civilisation had pagan gods, dragons you name it, just because the stories have commanalities does not mean that the pagan gods were a reality and existed, it simple means, that the message about Yaweh, god, or the one true god, has been present throughout all time and come to all nations, hence similarities in stories of eden, adam and eve etc. These commanilities are the true aspects of those pagan religions and todays monotheistic religions, if the same stories are repeated throughout time, with out any contradiction or conflict, then they are reconciliatory in their substance. For example, Hinduism is one of the oldest religions of the world, and its probable the most polytheistic of them all, yet when you analyse the scripture, it refers, to only one true god, but gives many names for this god, which happen to be attributes of the same god, yet people have decided to make those attributes and those names as seperate gods, human error again. But what one cand deduce from the scripture is that, its teachings are common with that of islam, judaism, christianity etc, yet today they seem poles apart. Simple put, what the hindu scriptures say from 1000's of yrs ago, is then repeated again, in the bible, torah, quran as common teaching and beliefs, one could say they copied the other, but thats the easy way out, afer analyses, its clear they dont or have not copied each other, simple meaning that the message sent by god has always been the same, but tampered and changed by man, and to find the truth, you come to common ground amongst all the world religions and you find they have alot in common than we think.

Its a bit long winded and off on a tangent, but what im trying to say is, because something maybe in common with something else, it simple mean its the truth being repeated and confirmed at later stages, but to take those commonalities and then try and mix them with differences, i.e the pagan gods and think they were real is mere speculation at best. Also, regarding these ancient dragons and monsters from ancient cultures and civilisations are either exaggerated descriptions of incidents or they are descriptions of Djin playing havoc, as they shape shift, and present themselves as many things to re-enforce false beliefs.

Seraph
A seraph (Heb. שׂרף, pl. שׂרפים Seraphim, lat. seraph[us], pl. seraphi[m]) is one of a class of celestial beings mentioned once in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh or Old Testament), in Isaiah. Later Jewish imagery perceived them as having human form, and in that way they passed into the ranks of Christian angels. In the Christian angelic hierarchy, seraphim represent the highest known rank of angels. There are only two angels in the canonized Greek and Hebrew Bible mentioned by name: Michael (who is described as the archangel) and Gabriel.

Funny how the Hebrew scholars that study the language and have made it a major factor in their life fail to mention the seraph as a dragon in any of their linquistic translations that are officially published to the public....

Anyway, Ive been through this battle before but I just keep gettin sucked back into it.

No where in any of the bible does it say that they worshipped the "Fiery Idol" on the staff. They looked upon the staff that was empowered by God to heal them if they had been bitten.

Furthermore, by your reasoning DC, in the end of days we will see 2 dragons fighting one another in the sky... yet strangely enough one of the dragons will be wielding a sword... In my opinion, what all of this boils down to (and we see it all the time) is some one had read to deeply into mythology and mingled it with "modern" religion and has formed an idea based on many different sects or denominations.

Now, it is believed the first mention of Dragons on record are from 3000 B.C. The sumerians wrote of Tiamat/Lubbu. And yes, it is a creation story and even those that follow this Sumerian/Babalonian story of creation to this day claim that it is metaphor.
The Full Story of the Sumerian Creation of man can be found here...

http://www.unexplainable.net/artman/...cle_5235.shtml

And to be honest, the fact that Tiamat was a dragon is speculation... I mean... just have a look at the translation of the 7 Tablets of Creation (Sumerian)

First: (Tablet 1)
unto Tiamut, the glistening one

Next: (Tablet 2)
Tiamat, who is a woman, is armed and attacketh thee.
.. rejoice and be glad;
The neck of Tiamat shalt thou swiftly trample under foot.
.. rejoice and be glad;

Next: (Tablet 4)
But Tiamat... , she turned not her neck,
With lips that failed not she uttered rebellious words:

Next: (Tablet 4)
Tiamat opened her mouth to its full extent,

Next: (Tablet 4)
He seized the spear and burst her belly,

Next: (Tablet 4)
And the lord stood upon Tiamat's hinder parts


Now, we turn to the subject of KUR a dragon story nearly a millenia older than tiamat... from Cuneiform text... (same story as tiamat only depicted in 39 tablets) My point is, mythology has a way of traveling... just as the greek mythology is prevalent in story today, the dragons have been as well. But, they are what they are... Myth...

I have shown many times here that the Jewish Encylcopedia states the MOST PROBABLE meaning of the Biblical Seraphim are winged, serpentine creatures, and this is hard to dispute when we know the Egyptians acknowledged the exact same fiery flying serpent by the exact same name, and its hieroglyph looks a good deal like the Mushushu dragons of Sumeria, where Abraaham was said to come from.

Christians for centuries acknowledged the Seraphim as dragons as confirmed in art and writings. Books such as Enoch and the Apocolypse of Baruch, used by Chrisitans and Jews for centuries both acknowledged dragons/serpents as heavenly creatures.

No, I don't see two dragons fighting at the end of days, becasue the Revelation story was borrowed from Zoroastrian mythology, only the dragon's name was changed from Ahriman to Satan.

There are a number of scholars that recognize El and Yahweh are two different dieties in Hebrew, because El and his "favorite son" Yam/Yaw are two seperate dieties. It is most likely that Yaw and Yahweh are the same dieities becasue of clear dragon connections with them both, they both quarreled with Ba'al Hadad, and they both had the same cosort Asheroth, though both Judaism and Christianity today try to ignore the evidence of Yahweh having a consort.

And yes, the Bible does say the Hebrews 'burnt incense' to the winged serpent idol. This is why Hezakiah broke it and by all evidence, Yahweh allowed both the Assyrians and Babylonian to humble Israel in His displeasure. The Hebrews prospered under Solomon and his successors when both the Consort Asheroth and the serpent idol were venerated. And the kingdoms of Judah and Israel, along with the temple were Destroyed only AFTER Yahwh's idol, ordered by Him to Moses was desecrated. These are the indisputable facts of the matter, though becasue modern Jews and Christians have made Yahweh in their image, these truths are ignored.

I agree Tiamat never existed, the story was invented to give importance to Marduk over the earlier Enki, who almost certainly seems to be the earliest version of Yahweh. the 'Great Dragon who stands in Eridu', who does nearly everything in the Sumerian stories that Yahweh would do in Genesis. His fight with Kur is probably a myth as well, for it is very clear the land of the earth is not the body of a gigantic chaos serpent.

Like it or not Ozi, most scholars today recognize that early Judaism was polytheistic, and El and Yahweh (Yaw) were seperate dieties, and the latter was associated with dragons/winged serpents, both in the correct interpretations of the Seraphim and the veneration of the fiery serpent idol. Okay, I will agreee that all of the religions you state have common roots, but they all go back to the Great Dragon of Eridu, Enki, who

Created the Garden of Eden

Made the first man "out of clay".

Tricks Adam out of Eternal Life

Warns the original 'Noah' about the great flood

Caused mankind to adopt numerous languages at the Tower of Babel.

Abraham came from Ur according to the Bible. This is just a few miles from Eridu. This is why Judaism has these stories. I am not saying they are only myths. Every human culture seemed to have these same 'dragons' that were our earliest Gods. The only difference is that modern Judaism, Islam and Christianity simply overlook the fact that the biblical Yahweh is the same dragon god as Enki, who was subservient to the actual Creator who was called Anu in Sumeria and El to the canannites and hebrews.

Acknowledgement and literal translation are two completely different things. Let's talk about this "idol" you keep bringing up. You need to put into context and include all of the information instead of picking and choosing what you put in there. Here are the verses.

Num 21:8
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Num 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

2Ki 18:3
And he (Hezekiah) did [that which was] right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.

2Ki 18:4
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

2Ki 18:5
He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor [any] that were before him.

Now, its more than evident that the serpent was destroyed because the people of israel were having a hard time following the commandments of the lord, thus Hezekiah had many things destroyed (the israelites had a habbit of doing such things if you remember... how about that blast of a party they had at the bottom of Mt. Sinai?) So, anyway, they were not burning incense to the serpent as if God had commanded them to. It was quite the other way around and Hezekiah, decendant of David, decided it was time to clean house, and the Israelites were not "punished" for this, actually Hezekiah prayed to the lord and asked for his help with this matter....

2Ki 19:32
Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shield, nor cast a bank against it.

2Ki 19:33
By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the LORD.

2Ki 19:34
For I will defend this city, to save it, for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

2Ki 19:35
And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they [were] all dead corpses.

Anyway, I think that's enough for now, I've made my point... and provided scripture.... what a novel idea!

*edited for a spelling error*

There is only one sentence above that is not wild speculation. I have put it in bold for all to see.

Understand that the 2Ki verses were undoubtedly written in Babylon or even later, after the captivity. Because of thier exposure and influence of Persian Zoroastrianism, it was natural that the Jews would want to present Hezakiah's actions in a good light, but just look at the facts.

1. Yahweh Himself ordered what was essentially an idol or graven image to be made by Moses. This is the ONLY idol Yahweh ever approved of, and it just may be bacause it is His likeness, a fire spewing, cattle eating, winged creature (according to Bilbical scripture), with assistants/relatives who are the same type of creatures (Seraphim).

2. Nor was this a mere piece of metal, for Yahweh somehow imbued it with the power to cure those bitten by serpents, therefore while scripture wrote how the idols of false gods were powerless and only things of stone or metal, Yahweh's idol had real power.

3. Yahweh made Solomon the most powerful and prosperous of all the Israelite monarchs, yet it seems probable that it was Solomon who put the idol in the temple, and also honored a canannite fertilitiy diety (also associated with serpents) as the CONSORT of Yahweh. If Yahweh truly was not pleased with the honoring of a female Canannite fertility Goddess (I suspect really just a female 'dragon' that mooched off of the Canannites), why did He honor Solomon so much? In fact, the animosity between Ba'al Hadad and Yahweh, according to canannite scripture seems to be about these two fighting over Asheroth.

Now look what happens after the idol is broken by Hezakiah.

1. The Assyrians invade and capture/destroy nearly EVERY Israelite city.

2. Hezakiah can only 'buy them off' by giving them all of the temple treasury as recorded in the Assyrian annals.

3. Everythin continues to go down hill, the Babylonians conquer the Assyrians but there is no gold left to 'buy off' the Babylonians so they destroy Jerusalem and the temple and deport the leading citizens.

Are you beginning to see a 'pattern'? Everything is GOOD while Yahweh's idol and consort are worshipped, just as in the glory days of Solomon. On the contrary, the moment after the idol of Yahweh was desecrated, the Jews have been a conquered and subjugated people until 1948! And it may be no coincidence that the Holy Menorah from the Arch of Titus, decorated with GRAVEN IMAGES of the Yahweh Dragon, is today an official symbol of the state of Israel. Perhaps Yahweh is pleased again that after 2500 years he is finally being honored again in the manner he requested.

It doesn't matter if the later Biblical writers state that the desecrator of Yahweh's idol, and who brought ruin to the country 'was a good guy'. The historical facts speak for themselves.

I'm pretty sure you should go back and actually READ my post... Everything in the scripture I just provided goes against everything you just replied. Do you honestly think you can change the bible to support your opinions? Because thats what you are doing, trying to bend the scripture to conform to what you want it to be, and it doesnt work that way. You know, you could probably clear your name a good bit if you would respond intelligently, and actually quote some real sources, but I dont see that happening.

That is what he always does in every thread concerning dragons. These actions have destroyed his credibility. Outside of the early teenage crowd on here, nobody takes him seriously at all.

I'm sorry that you know too little about the bible, and how it relates to the actual historical events supported by archaeology to be able to understand what I am talking about. You are unable to refute anything I have said so the best you can do is your childish insults.

I have very good credibility to anyone who has tha ability to think for themselves and who understands that sometimes real history contradicts the Bible. I know what I am talking about, and you obviously do not. In fact, people like your are annoyed, upset and lash out with your juvenile behaviou becasue I make too much sense, and it troubles them.

Show me where I am incorrect, and therfore have no credibility. You cannot, because you know nothing about these subjects.

I'm not try to change the Bible. Everything I have said is a fact. I am just looking at the same facts you are but not brainwashed to believe the Bible's version when it contradicts historical facts. And actually it is not so much facts but opinions we disagree on.

The Bible writers say Hezakiah was a good king becasue he destroyed Yahweh's idol. And there are still Germans who will say Hitler did great things for Germany.

I am just not buying the Jewish mythology that Hezakiah did the right thing becasue both the Bible and real history tell us terrible things happened from the moment the idol was broken, whereas Solomon, the king who honored the idol as well as Yahweh's sepent-dragon female consort was the richest and most powerful king the Israelites ever had. Like it or not, these are the facts. You are just freaked out because you never heard of anyone approaching these stories from the fact Yahweh in not the creator, but a selfish, prideful, bloodthirsty, virgin and child-eating dragon, just as many ancient Christians understood, as well as the Persians. Even Jesus said as much when he told the Pharisees they were worshipping the 'murderer from the beginning' , who was NOT His father. And who were the Pharisees worshipping? Yahweh, of course.

Please show me just one thing I said that was not true.

I think for myself on a daily basis (I am even doing it currently) and yet, I am completely untroubled by you "making sense" of any type, let alone too much sense.

Well of course. It is the people who think for themselves who should not feel toubled.

I dunno, DC, you throw things up that are often very much subject to interpretation, and as such its hard to think anything more of what you're saying other than you reaaalllllly like dragons.

Edit.

A better question is: Is Yaweh a blundering idiot? To which the answer is yes, he is unable to create a perfect universe. But hark! I speak not of the humans to which your predictable answer will be, "we have free will." I speak of the destroyed galaxies, the colliding stars, the asteroids which implode other interplanetary objects. Or are you telling me that the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs was to wash them of their sins?

And where do you gather these "Facts"? You do not have one shred of evidence for what you are saying yet you keep tauting them it as "fact". You provide not one piece of scripture, nor a reputable scholar or scientific entity... nothing. How do you expect any of us to take you seriously....? Oh, and you say there are millions that share the same view as you... but you know I did a bit of research of my own on you, and through the dozens of forum boards you are on, no one seems to agree with you... odd isnt it?

That is the most patently laughable thing I have ever read on here. Countless members have destroyed your totally unsupported and downright fanciful theories on numerous threads. There is but a single user that any of your theories make any sense to...you. Are you really so arrogant as to think that every user online is too stupid to understand any of your theories? Could the problem instead lie with the proponent of your theories?

People would not have as many problems with you or your theories if you did not actively twist sources to fit the mold of your argument. Deception is not a substitute for viable evidence.

I have provided evidence for everything I have said here. Virtually every point in the OP is based on scripture. You cannot refute anything I say, so now you invent your nonsense. I don't expect the typical Christian to agree with me, after all, Yahweh is a dragon.

You also take what I said out of context.

I did say millions of people in the oriental world still recognize dragons as deities, and this is true. I also said millions, even billions acknowledge the existence of Yahweh, and all of the evidence seems to suggest he is one of the creaturs ancient man called a 'dragon'. Like the OP states, the evidence is quite overwhelming and has yet to be refuted.

I never claimed Yahweh was the creator of the universe. He is just an enhanced archosaur, one of many that seem to have 'watched' early man and insured his survival. The God which these 'tribal dragon deities' answered to was called Anu in Mesopotamia, and known as El to the Israelites and Canannites.

DC you have yet to prove a few things....

That the Sumerians believed that Enki was a dragon. Calling him ushumgal once in a literary tradition that has him as humanoid, and describes him a number of metaphoric ways is not sufficient.

That the Sumerians believed a mushushu to literally exist as a physical creature.

That Yam is Enki.

That Yam is a mushushu....and was believed to literally exist.

That Yam is YHWH.

That YHWH is a mushushu....and was believed to literally exist.

While you have speculated on these points you have yet to provide sufficient evidence for any.

You still provide no scripture... Sounds to me like you are jumping straight to the defensive because you know you are wrong. You can say it is based on fact all you would like, but until you produce those facts, your statements will continue to be meaningless to the rest of us. And as far as me being a "Typical Christian" Try again, you have no idea what my religious values are. Its far beyond the time for you to put up or shut up. Provide Facts, Provide scripture, provide something of true worth, or leave it be. This topic is getting old and I'm sure its just a matter of time before a Mod shuts this one down like he has the others.

DC, the problem lies in you pushing your hypothesis as a fact.

You have been asked many questions to which you use a sidestepping retaliation, saying people are not as
knowledgable as you, and do not know what they are talking about. (Which is highly condescending).

1.) You claim Enki is/was a Dragon! Your evidence: A five-thousand plus year old epitaph and a hymn.
This is not conclusive evidence.

2.) You claim that all current christians worship the Canaanite Dragon Yam! Your evidence: Yam is a
Mushushu Dragon. This is false, as you are applying your hypothesis as a fact with no conclusive
evidence.

3.) You claim that many scientists and scholars agree with your hypothesis! There is no evidence here
as you have yet to provide any.


The main point here is, where is the solid evidence?




Regards,
Tom

1. Many scholars believe Enki was perceived as a dragon (though as a god could shape shift into a human form). The Bilbeorigins article on the Genesis story quotes many of these scholars, and I have posted that information here before. Enki tricks Adam out of eternal life in the Garden of Eden in the Sumerian version. A walking, talking serpent tricks Adam out of eternal life in the Garden of eden in the Bible. Enki is called a Great Serpent dragon in his hymns. Why are you not able to see the connection. All of those scholars quoted in Bibleorigins could. Do I really need to post these sources all again? Even when his name is changed to Ea, hymns still describe one of his forms as a scaly. cl;awed, serrpent headed monster (dragon).

2. Many scholars also connect the cannanite beliefs with the earliest Hebrew beliefs. El is the high God in both theologies. Yam/Yaw is a lower "son of god". This is implied to be the same relationship as El and Yahweh in the bible. I have posted these scholarly articles here before as well. The problem is that later on, when they became monotheistic, the Hebrews morphed the Creator El, and the tribabl god Yahweh (whose descriptions, idol, assistants-seraphim all suggest a serpent-dragon deity), into one god called Yahweh.

3. No, I never said any of them actually believed any of this was real. They may connect Yaw with Yahweh, or acknowledge the Seraphim mean fiery flying serpents, but it does not necessarily mean they believe either Yahweh the dragon or Yahweh, the bearded guy on a golden throne are real entities. Of course there are scientists who believe the Bible has turths, and even that El's creation story remarkably parallels evolution (though Yahweh's doesn't). Perhaps they will also believe Yahweh is a reptilian entity apparently created by El when they read my book, for the evidence is there.

You are reffering to the Sumerian story, Adapa and the Southwind.

Adapa, or perhaps Adamu, son of Ea! When Adapa was fishing one day on a smooth sea, the south wind rose suddenly and overturned his boat, so that the was thrown into the sea. Angered by the mishap, he broke the wings of the south wind so that for seven days it could not blow the sea's coolness over the hot land. Anu calls Adapa to account for this misdeed, and his father Ea warns him as to what should befall him. He tells him how to fool Tammuz and Gishzida, who will meet him at the gate of heaven. Ea cautions him not to eat or drink anything in heaven, as Ea fears that the food and drink of death will be set before Adapa. However, the food and drink of eternal life are set before him instead, and Adapa's over-caution deprives him of immortality. He has to return to Earth instead.

Even though there is no forbidden fruit or talking serpent in this story, as it only mentions food/drink, (In general).
Anyone can see the similarities of this story with the one written in the book of genesis. (That was written much later).

But, I still do not see how a Dragon converges with these stories.?



Regards,
Tom

Enki is called "the Great Dragon who stands in Eridu", in an ancient Sumerian Hymn, that goes on about the great garden he planted for his people (Eden). And as you stated, Enki tricks Adapa out of eternal life. Technically Adap is not a real son, he was supposedly formed out of clay much as Adam in Genesis. But even so, it is already acknowledged in this story that there are many humans. Eridu is already a city and Adapa catches fish for Enki.

Now in Genesis there is a walking, talking, possibly flying "serpent" in the same Garden of Eden who also gives Adapa/Adam bad advice that causes him to lose his chance at etenral life.

sooooooooo............. you still don't see how a dragon converges in these to stories. The Serpent is punished by making him crawl on his belly, suggesting he has legs, and possibly wings before this, just like "the Great Dragon Enki who created the garden of Eden.

'lil gremlin' - DC you have yet to prove a few things....

That the Sumerians believed that Enki was a dragon. Calling him ushumgal once in a literary tradition that has him as humanoid, and describes him a number of metaphoric ways is not sufficient.

DC Many of the Annuaki high gods are referred to as ushumgal dragons, this is a CONSISTENT trait and not a metaphor. Enlil and Annana/Ishtar are also called dragon, and even when Enki becomes Ea, he is described in intimate detail with scales, claws, a serpent like head with sharp teeth, and even heel less feet just as if someone were describing a theropod dinousar!

GREM That the Sumerians believed a mushushu to literally exist as a physical creature.

DC Several scholars believe the nushushu was probably a real, now extinct creature because its likeness is portrayed along with real bulls and lions on the Ishtar Gate.

GREM That Yam is Enki.

DC Several scholars have postulated this, and you know it.

GREM That Yam is a mushushu....and was believed to literally exist.

DC Yam is sometimes referred to as a dragon, and people believed dragons were real back then.
GREM That Yam is YHWH.

DC This has also been proposed by lettered scholars in the field, and you know it.GREM That YHWH is a mushushu....and was believed to literally exist.

DC The Hebrews believed Yahweh was a physical creature that lived in the tabernacle and physically consumed his offerings of lambs, calves and midianite virgins.. The Bible states he spews fire out of his mouth and has wings. He ordered Moses to build a serpent idol that was worshipped throughout the glory days of Judah. Yahweh highest servants are fiery serpents, much like the furious serpents that are Mushushu dragons. Even the holiest object in the second temple, the menorah was decorated with dragons.... now why would that be?l

GREM While you have speculated on these points you have yet to provide sufficient evidence for any.

DC Esteemed scholars have provided the evidence already. All I have to do is footnote and credit them.

the entire enki thing is completely ridiculas. First of all the story in the book of enki is false, like I said lies from a fallen angel. But the fact that you keep saying he's a dragon is the funniest thing. If you've read the book, the summerian gods from their own descriptions by enki himself are nothing more than space men from a planet with a bad atmosphere. From the book all they were were men and women basicly who needed gold to repair their planets atmosphere. The one guy made it to earth (then more and more) and then eventually genetically engineered apes and made them look like them to use as workers. The apes that now basicly look and are exactly like the summerian gods are supposed to be us. Well I don't look like a dragon, most other people I know don't look like a dragon. THAT FACE ON MARS THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ONE OF THOSE SUMMERIAN GODS ISN'T THE FACE OF A DRAGON!!!! So where in the world does this fabricated fallen angel lie make sense at all? especially from your interpratation that enki was a dragon? The bible is the truth, not any summerian work of fiction. enki was just a sad fallen angel who wanted to make a book that would confuse people in the future even going as far as to lure people into believing it's scientifically correct by playing on and mentioning evolution.

Like everyone else has said you have no proof of any of your claims, I shot your initial claims down myself in my earlier post. You blatantly lie and then come back and say you haven't when you've been shown to have lied. And like I pointed out from your ignorant suggestion that the leviathan mentioned in job was a female dragon playmate of YHVH (which is ignorant since the scriture clearly indicated that the leviathan is a MALE) you don't even know the words of scripture you attempt to use as evidence.

Every post you've ever made that I've read where you claim things like this is basicly never backed up with clear and accurate scriptual quotes. And aside from the Bible you always claim that this book says this and these people said this..........Well I'm not going to lie, alot of the works and ideas you mention I haven't read or heard of myself. Probably most people haven't read any ancient cannanite writings, or summerian works, ........basicly what I'm getting at is that you could be making up pretty much all of your claims since you never use a quote from any book that states the things you claim. We already know your a liar because you lie with and about the words of scripture which WE ALL have access to and can refute you on! If your that bold to lie with material we have in hand how much more likely are you to lie about material most of us don't have access to??? Fortunately I have read the book of enki and many of the gnostic christian works and can refute you on your crazy assumptions about them.

The biblical Yahweh might as well be a Dragon. They are equally non-existent.

You get your information from Stichin, and ALL of the serious scholars of Mesopotamian language state his ideas that the Sumerian gods were spacemen is utter nonsense. Even Stichin KNOWS these gods are all called dragons, but claims these are the 'spaceships' they flew in.

I have never lied about scripture. You simply don't know enough about the real scripture I'm quoting. There is a whole "Christian Mythology" not in the bible that was created from not understanding the original languages. A good example is the creation of a fallen angel called Lucicer that the Jews never recognized becasue this is NOT in the Bible.

Google the words 'female' and 'leviathan' and you will see that several Biblical scholars that know far more than you postulate it is a female. But this is really pointless. It is not a proper name but a generic term for a fearsome fire breathing reptile, though in some instances it seems to the a crocodile, meant to symbolize the Pharoah of Egypt.

You cannot refute anything I have said. Anyone who believes Stichin's spaceman fantasies knows absolutely nothing about anicent near eastern history and theology.

I have a question for you DC....More of a personal nature but still valid nonetheless.....

When did you become fascinated with dragons and why are you so passionate about them ?? It might help us understand you a little bit........

You keep talking about enki and the most anyone knows about enki and summerian history revolving around him comes from his book as far as I know, all you talk about is a hymm. There are only a few people in the entire world that can read summerian and you aren't one of them. One of those people translated the book of enki and yes his name is Stichin. Now I don't believe the nonesense as I arleady said it's a fallen angel work of crap, but to base an opinion that enki was a dragon is simply false *******ness especially if you've read the book of enki which clearly shows different! D.C you are not a scholar, Stichin is, I don't even like the guy myself but don't try to act like you know more about the subject than he does.

And I've already refutted pretty much everything you've said. You still don't have any quotes to back up your claims. And here you go again, you don't lie about scripture? So your saying you don't make things up???? Okay, so show me the quote in the Bible or ANY other work for that matter that states the God of Israel, YHVH, stopped the flow of the Jordan River by laying his huge dragon body across the river to block its' flow!!!! Go ahead and show me the quote! Where is it, oh wait here it is:

Dragonic Chronicler Chp. 3 verse 10: from his book of B.S.: "I don't have a quote because I lied and completely made that up, making wild untrue and un provable assumptions."

Okay here are some pictures that are supposed to depict enki, you tell me if he looks like a dragon to you....


enki is the first one on the right


this too is supposed to be enki



This is Ea/enki D.C. can confirm if he wishes but I believe the two names are are attached to the same person. Enki is supposed to be the one in the middle highlighted in purple or blue (I take it that's just done so he stands out in the picture though I don't know for sure)


In this one here enki looks the most fallen angel or dragon like but still, not the typical dragon image you would expect if he was indeed a dragon.


And here is what someone else wrote in a book describing how enki is pictured: "In art Enki is represented as a seated god with long beard, wearing a cap with many horns and a long, pleated robe. Streams of water flow from his arms to the ground, sometimes with little fish swimming along the flow."
"Enki was god of the subterranean freshwater ocean (abju), and was especially associated with wisdom, magic and incantations, and with the arts and crafts of civilization."
- Black and Green, Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia

Give it up guy. It is common knowledge to any student of Sumerian theology that Enki, Enlil, Ananna, Ningishzida are ALL called 'great dragons', terrible dragons, etc, in their hymns. I have posted the hymns several times here. Even when Enki becomes Ea centuries later, the hymn still carefully describe his serpent head, scaly body clawed hands and heel less feet. Stichin knew this too.

These Hymns are the real deal, whereas who is on a cylinder seal is merely an opinion.

Do these gods also appear in human form? Yes, but his is no different tahn most religions. Zeus turned into a drakon or gander when he raped human females, Quetzalcoatl could become a bearded white man or feathered serpent, some say he was Jesus! Ningishzida is depicted as either a dragon or man. The Chinese dragons were said to be able to take a human form. I do not believed such things, and they may have been inspired by real dragons having humans assistants to pose as them in human form while they were off mind things when they were off hunting or mating.

I have provided sources for everything I have stated here, but not over and over again. Just read the earlier posts.

since we have allowed this threat to move on so long, can I propose my theory?

God, Yahweh as you would have it... is actually BIGFOOT!

It is common knowledge that God himself leaves "footprints" in the sands of our lives... thus... all those bigfoot castings we have belong to him... And, does the bible not say that he created man in his image? He didnt say what the image was but I bet the first humans were hairy as all get out... All of my conjected proof can be found here at some point in time. IM sure I have provided links to my information some time in the past, you will have to go back on the 856,000+ post made on this forum to find them, and if you still dont come across them im sure a mod deleted them...