Yes, they must have a supernatural origin or they would have been found by now, exactly like dragons. Understand that the Nephilim were considered the offspring between humans and heavenly 'angels', so they would seem humanlike, and their description fits that of bigfoot, and other hairy humanoids recorded all over the world.

Thats a contentious statement. If that is true then all of the species that we find every year must have supernatural origins.

Good Grief!

Use a little common sense. It is natural that a humanoid creature might be intelligent. And it is only through intelligence that creatures so large as lake monsters (dragons) and big foot could avoid capture.

But if they find a new mouse deep in the congo, then no, this does not mean it is intelligent or has supernatural origins ... geesh!

Common sense? As far as I know, the belief that lake monsters are actually dragons and that Big Foot is the hybrid spawn of fallen angels and sinful women is far from common, DC.

There is no reason to believe that either lake monsters are dragons or that big foot is a nephilim remnant. There are many other reasons to believe that these creatures have evaded capture besides being intelligent. For one, they might not even exist. Second, we have no dragons on the fossil record, and as such we have no reason to believe that because of human encroachment, they decided to move into lakes or other large bodies of water.

But I think the biggest problem with your theory, DC, is that you seem to rely on the Bible as literal truth. Above all, past your dragons and lake monster mumbo jumbo, a literal interpretation of the texts is a pretty big leap of faith. There really is no historical evidence that supports at least the early part of Genesis, concerning the Garden of Eden and the Flood (as in a literal Noah, there probably was a big flood in Mesopotamia, but thats off topic) and the Nephilim and so on and so forth.

I really have no problem with your thing for dragons. If thats what your little religion is, then fine, I say go for it, but just remember DC, its a leap of faith.

Edit: PS, D.C. there are plenty of large fauna that have been discovered in recent years that didn't necessarily need to exhibit signs of intelligence to stay out of sight of humans.

Actually everything in my book is in harmony with science, safe for the understanding that there is an intelligence behind the universe that apparently used some yet undiscovered large, sentient reptile (probably artificially enhanced), and served as 'protectors' of various human tribal groups, which formed the basis of the world's earliest religions, all of which seem to have dragons.

Many scholars state there is a lot of 'good history' in the Bible. The Sumerian Eden was next to a Stone Age city called Eridu where a "Great Dragon" as he is described in his hymns had a priest who caught fish for him named Adape/Adam. There is also evidence of a great flood in Mesopotamia that inspired the Noah story. Incidentally, it was the same 'dragon' of Eden who warned the Mesopotamian Noah of the impending flood. Save for the mysterious 'dragons' that seem to 'everywhere' in these times, nothing in these ideas violates things like evolution, real geological time, etc.

I agree 'larger' animals that are not intelligent are still being found, but dragons are described in virtually every country, and so called "lake monsters" that are still seen yet never captured ocur nearly everywhere where there were previously dragon legends.

Scholars are not scientist... And another issue I have with your "preachings" You speak on the sumerian text quite alot, yet say that none of the dragons have been killed and all this other blubber... yet, it sumerian text is tells the story of how one dragon was killed by the others (dont ask me for names cause its nearly midnight here and ive had a few to drink if you know what im talkin about) but anyway, that information is in my previous post on this thread, seriously. Now, why werent the bones of fossils of this dragon ever found... oh wait, thats right, they dont exist... besides, you say dragons eat people and cattle and what not... which would say that a dragon is a eating, breathing, water drinking, waste pooping animal... which would put it/him/her on the same level as humans... Why would a completely omnipitant being need to eat? It wouldnt.... why would an omnipitant being need to lay eggs to foster a lineage? They wouldnt... Face it... "dragons" are mythical exagerations of lizards and gaters. You cant seriously tell me that God pooped an egg and out popped jesus....

You still haven't understood what I am saying. I never said the Creator is a dragon. I said that according to WORLDWIDE ancient beliefs, it would seem that a Creator being may have 'enhanced' some kind of reptilian creature to 'watch over' early man and insure his survival.

In the original Sumerian and Canannite theologies, there is one HIGH God in heaven responsible for creating the rest, many of which were called dragons, and all of which may have originally been what we call dragons.

If a Creator needed something to watch over mankind in its formative, vulnerable period would it have to be a metal robot full of transistors and circuits? Of course not, these are human things. A more logical choice would be modifying some existing creature to be an 'organic robot' in which even the aging process would be negated. But such an organism would still require food and water, just as a metal robot requires an energy source. Nothing at all need be 'magical' or impossbile. These creatures would still be omnipotent to human beings, just as a T-Rex would seem to be to stone age man.

Do you realize that many dinosaurs we 'believe in' today are based on only one or two bones? Yet at one time BILLIONS must have existed, only we haven't found their fossils. Most bonese are never fossilized. In Romania a gigantic flying pterosaur was just discovered as tall as a T-Rex, with a wingspan of probably 50 feet and could swallow an adult human whole. Its skull is the largest of any land animal ever found, over 10 feet long and three feet wide. If humans saw this beast in the middle ages, it would have been called a dragon. It is REAL, even though 'scientists' would have said it was impossible before this.

God eats captured enemy virgins?!

Would that be male virgins, female virgins, or some of each??

I shoulda paid more attention in Sunday School!

'God' doesn't eat the virgins, a dragon named Yahweh that later became confused with the real Creator (Elohim) ate the virgins. And the Bible is very specific about them being female, for every male of the Midianites from the smallest baby had already been executed.

True, this is one of several interesting Bible stories they never told you about in Sunday School.

So, I'm curious DC, how did we confuse the 'Creator' with the 'dragon' Yahweh? How did that whole thing pan out?

Very simple. Originally the Hebrew beliefs were polytheistic and identical to those of the Canaanites, which is sensible becasue though Abraham was said to have come from Ur in Sumeria, his people migrated to Canaan.

El or Elohim was the Chief God of both cultures. According to Both cannanite theology and the bible, this El assigned lesser gods (that I believe were dragons based on world wide beliefs) to watch over specific human cultures. The Bible states that Yahweh was assigned to the Hebrews, though the early bible states the other 'gods' assigned to other tribes were just as real as Yahweh, though they naturally thought Yahweh was the most powerful.

Later, when Judaism became monotheistic after exposure to the Zoroastrian persians, the two highest gods of the Hebrews were morphed into one and the rest of the foreign gods were turned into demons. Even in Genesis both Elohim and Yahweh have their own, completely different Creations stoires! But Elohim's is remarkably similar to evolution once we understand the 'days' are actually great epochs.

So, do you believe that these gods were/are real?

Only The Creator could be considered a true God, the dragons are simply long lived, sentient reptiles that played the 'god game' among men in return for steady meals and pampering.

Virtually every human culture believed in dragons........ kind of odd if they never existed. They are connected to virtually every human religion as well. But maybe you 'know more' than billions of people.

Almost every culture believed in God at some point or another, but there is no empirical evidence to suggest that God is real. However, I think there is more reason to believe in God than dragons.

But what you seem to forget is that many of these earliest gods the world over WERE considered dragons, even a certain God called Enki, whose hymns claimed was "the Great Dragon who standds in Eridu", where he made the Garden of Eden, warned a "Noah " of a great flood, and casued a man named Adam to lose his bid for eternal life. Zeus and Odin were storm gods, that were probably based on the Sumerian Storm dragon Enlil, and there is no question about the flying serpent dietines of the Americas or the lung of China being dragon gods.

So if these 'gods' were/are real, they are most likely a kind of enormous sentient reptile. But understand that these dragon gods usually answered to a Ceator God that was NOT described as a dragon. There is a great deal of pluasibility that if there was a Creator, He/It, may have recruited assistants among other life forms. Even in Christianity, the highest assistants were originally dragons, also known as seraphim, or fiery flying serpents.

Theres the crux of it, DC. IF they are real. All debate about whether the gods of antiquity were recognized as dragons aside, what reason is there to believe that they exist/existed?

Probably because virtually every human culture acknowledged they DID exist, so that's a pretty good track record. It matter little if over the centuries the evolved into 'bearded old guys, on golden thrones'.

I can concede that God has taken the form of a dragon at some point but since the biblical God has always ALWAYS resided in the spiritual realm and never NEVER taken form on earth, and has always ALWAYS sent messangers, there really is no way to know is there?

Is there any evidence besides the fact that supposedly people believed in them (dragons)? Is there any physical evidence to suggest that dragons are real entities?

As the dragonslaying stories appear to be greatly exaggerated, it seems we have no physical remains. Many of the accounts elude to them being extremly long-lifed creatures. But the fact people everywhere claimed to have seen them, and every scientific type book of the time acknowledged they were real should have some weight. The Anglo Saxon Chronicles, which is our chief source of information about Britain during the Dark Ages even records a specific king who was swallowed by one!

And of course, if there is any truth to any theology, virtually all of them have some connection to dragons. Odd, isn't it?

So there is no physical evidence then?

No more than that of any God, though I strongly suspect more people have reported seeing dragons than they have all the world's 'gods' put together.

Of course, there have been some unidentified decomposed beasts found in the ocean that could have been dragons. There was one creature that looked a lot like a Chinese dragon found in the stomach of a Sperm Whale that was photographed, though the body was regreatably lost to science. And there have been many photographs of Sea Serpents and Lake Monsters that may be dragons, though regretably, always taken from great distance due to the wariness of the creatures.

Well that settles that for me.

You mean, anything you have not seen cannot be real, even if other people recorded seeing them for thousands of year? Do you think Julius Caesar never existed because you haven't seen his body?

Of course not. I believe in God, D.C., I just don't believe in Allah or Jesus or YHWH or Odin or Zeus and most certainly not Dragons. What I have found is that every religion takes its little hint of truth and has completely distorted or embellished it to serve its own ends. Was there a Jesus like figure? Probably. Was he exactly what the Bible claimed he was? No, most likely not. In the same sense we can look at your Dragon theory. Do most cultures have "dragon" or "dragon-like" creature embedded in their mythology? It would seem so. Does this mean that Dragons are real? Not in the way you think. Dragons were most likely the product of either fanciful imaginations or exaggerated stories about creatures like crocodiles, alligators, komodo dragons, monitor lizards, and other medium-large sized reptiles.

But, belief in Dragons is your choice D.C., and I can't argue with your right to believe.

I never stated dragons were 'Gods' but legends all around the world associate them with a supreme diety, that they seem to serve. Therfore, if you truly believe in a universal, supernatural diety, I am surprised why you would dismiss this universally acknowledged 'connection' to a supreme diety that are 'dragons'. Why would such advanced cultures like the Chinese, Maya and Sumerians state that 'dragons' taught them writing, laws, agriculture, etc if they had only seen a big lizard, crocodile or dry bones? That is just plain dumb, and insults the intelligence of these ancient peoples who still amaze us with their abilities.

1. I know that you don't claim these dragons are Gods, but you seem to be putting them forth as some sort of supernatural beings.

2. Part of my belief in God is that while I can claim from a philosophical perspective that God exists, beyond that any quality that I give to God falls under the heading of pure speculation, including whether or not God used dragons as servants.

3. I think its more insulting to the cultures you named to assert that they had to be taught how to do things by dragons. Given that ancient humans weren't all that different from us, I would think that because we can figure out how to do things so can they. Besides there are much more viable theories as to how humans learned how to things like farm than "the dragons did it."

I never asserted humans had to be taught the trappings of civilization by the dragons, the ancient peoples themselves did! I am merely bringing their beliefs to light, and trying to come up with plausible explanations.

But an argument can be made that those peoples that worshipped dragons as dieties were the most advanced ancient cultures. Whereas cultures in which dragons were generally portrayed as evil, like the Germanic peoples, remained virtual 'cavemen' for thousands of years, and while the dragon worshipping Maya, Sumerians and Chinese were building great libraries of stone, these barbarians were illiterate, perpetually drunken thugs whose constructions abilities were limited to hovels of twigs and cowdung. So you tell me why this is so.

just responding to the point you beleive in god, but not allah, budha, jesus etc or YHWH. Which god do you believe in and based on what truth?

I don't believe in God as a specific God from any specific religion, but I believe in the concept of a higher power, of which, beyond its existence, nothing can be said with any certainty. I don't believe that any religious scriptures are anything other than stories created by men. There is no reason to believe, from my perspective, that the Torah, the New Testament, and the Qu'ran are divine revelation, which I know, of course, you will disagree with. I guess to put it simply, I just believe in god, end of story.

Edit: I forgot to tell you why I believe what I do. So, as per your request, Ozi, I base my beliefs off of the Cosmological Argument. Simple as that. While I don't think the Cosmological Argument is conclusive when it comes to God's existence, I think it is certainly a better argument then arguments like the Teleological and Ontological arguments.

I agree with part of your view, but there could very well be 'kernels' of truth about this God in the beliefs of various religions. Or do you maintain that this God may have created the universe, but is not even aware of the intelligent life on this one flyspeck of a planet?

Yes, perhaps a real creator of the universe might logically 'not have time' for every planet, which might explain why the diety may have 'enhanced' certain large reptiles to watch over mankind in its formative stages......... or at least this it was world wide dragon legends seem to tell us, but then, what would our ancestors know? Sure they were brilliant astronomers, architects, and mathematicians, but they found a T-Rex skull so believed this had to be their god, right?

You know DC, to be honest with you, all I can say is that I think that God exists. Any other quality that I might give him, whether he is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient or whatever, is pure speculation on my part. I don't ascribe any specific quality to the 'God' I believe in.

Actually, here is a better description of what I'm trying to describe: an 'unmoved mover', if you will. Basically I formulated my own philosophy around the old Cosmological argument and an arabic variant, the Kalam Cosmological Argument. For me, however, the jury is still out (for now) on things like the qualities of God, whether morality is objective or subjective, etc. etc. etc.


Sure, your guess is as good as any I suppose. I can't definitively rule out that God does this or that, but by my best speculation, being that whatever he/she/it is among other things, it is the supreme being of the universe, so I'd imagine God's a pretty busy guy/girl/gender neutral being.


Well DC, given that modern humans are susceptible to silly beliefs, such as a 6000 year old earth, you never know, right?

You are right about that being Silly. But what is interesting is how the Elohim Creation story in Genesis closely parallels the scientific origins of the univers and evolution. How would bronze age man know about the big bang, or that life began in the sea, or that there was an epoch of dinosaurs and birds (called dragons/Tannin in the Bible), followed by the age of mammals and finally mankind. Many scientists have cited how remarkable this is.

But yea, since such a creator would be very busy with a whole univers, maybe the best he could do here was enhance some dinosaurs 100 million years ago to be this planets custodians, and lo and behold, they became mankinds earliest Gods!

Yahweh?,can you provide a scripture that uses the word Yahweh.i cant find one.seems to me your reading something out of context & misaplying meaning to areas that dont refer properly,i even went to my strongs exhaustive concordance looking for the word and i can find it the either///!!!

You are acquainted with Strong's, yet unfamiliar with the word Yahweh? You are joking, right? If you are not, the word used to be translated into the English as Jehovah, though most Christians unfamiliar with the original Canannite theology Judaism is based upon, are not aware that Elohim and Jehovah/Yahweh are two different deities in what was originally a Polytheistic religion. But it should be obvious, even if you ignore the canannite origins, Jehovah and El have two distinctly different Creations stories in the same book of Genesis!

But back to the more correct "Yahweh", some scholars believe the name is derived from a Cannanite 'dragon' god named Yaw, or Yam, for both are considered sons of El, enemies of Ba'al Haddad and have Asheroth as a consort.

YHWH interesting deity. And interesting thread. From what I've learned lately, I'm starting to doubt the honesty of YHWH, which is an important part of high magick and ceremonial magic. Perhaps I'll change him with something else something more personal, as I dont feel comfortable evoking possibly malevolent entities...

Good work!

-EA

I find it amazing that anyone would base thair belief off of conjecture and mis-translation of old text. I myself believe in God, and other entities as well, but I do not take the translation of the bible to be the absolute truth (anyone who does needs to do a lot of research)

Now, on to my next point... DC talks about how so many regions of the world have reported seeing dragons... So... I took the time out of my schedule this weekend to do a little research of my own... Every Region that has records or sightings of the "Dragon" describe it in a different way, most descibe it as a serpent with wings, other as beast with wings... Nearly all of the Native american "records" describe it as a large water snake...

To put it simply, it sounds like yet another legend or myth made to scare some one for some reason or another.... The boogey man exist in nearly every country as well, in some shape, form, or fassion.... but that doesnt make him real. He is just another legend or myth used to scare children into doing something the way the parents or society wants it done.

I just gotta say.. I like your logic draconic. Nice one.

It may not be that Yahweh is evil, nor do I believe entity is a proper description. I believe he is biological creature that eats (as we see in the Old Testament), that has some paranormal abilities. Yahweh did the job for which he was intended quite well it would seem, but it is folly to make this prideful carnivorous reptile into the creator of the universe, when the facts of the matter show that Yahweh was never more than an assistant to the real creator that essentially watched over a single human culture as did the other dragons around the world.

It is amusing how Chirstian constantly seek to Justify Yahweh's 'ungodly' behavour. As the brilliant Thomas Paine, one of the great architects of the American Revolution said.

"It is not a God, just and good that the Bible describes, but a devil"

Watch for my book, I hope it will be ready by Christmas.

I have never stated the Bible is the absolute truth. Obviously it all cannot be for in one chapter of Genesis Man is created in the last of several great epochs remarkably consistent with Evolution. And then in another chapter, we have a different named God who creates man first, and becasue he is lonely he first creates animals and then woman to keep Adam Company. The first creation is attributed to El. a supreme creator figure in many theologies, whereas it is the dragon Yahweh, who is credited with the nonsensical creation of Adam before anything else, in a world now only about 6,000 years old. No Dred, I don't believe that, but great scientists have been made 'believers' becasue of that evolutionary creation, facts written down 3,000 years ago that only made sense in the last 150 years becasue of scientific discovery.

But the dragons are NOT bogeymen, that is why your idea falls flat. These were not stories to scare children, those stories came very late, when people started to not believe in dragons becasue few and fewer of them overtly associated with man. These dragons were gods who brought rain and taught humans technologies. And they took freely given offering in return, calves, lambs, liqour and even first born children as the Bible records of Yahweh. And most curiously and quite inexplicable, these 'dragons' seem to behave much the same way all over the world with cultures where there could be no contact.

Yeah... I pretty much rest my case... You keep talking yourself in circles....
And as far as the teaching of technology... it wouldn't have been the "Dragons" if you wanna use the old Sumerian (and other) text as fact... it would have been the Apkallu. And if we are gonna believe in the Apkallu, we might as well throw Pazuzu, the phoenix, Scylla, Charybdis, the gorgons, Geryon, ... and lets not forget the Stymphalian birds....

You still don't get it. The dragons are UNIVERSAL to all of mankind, and believed in for thousands of years. All of those other things are merely the stuff of localized 'fairy tales', and unlike dragon, most of the rest are biologically impossible nonsense.

Literally billions of people still acknowledge dragons for they are part of virtually every contemporary religion.

It's funny how you avoid the part of the post you didn't want to see up there... still running in circles... it's great really.

And billions of people around the world UNIVERSALLY agree that God is simply GOD. And if my memory serves me correctly, a great many dragon stories do come from Fairy Tales... and to even bring up the biology of such a creature is ridiculous... tell me what chemicals would have to be mixed within the "Dragon" to cause it to breathe fire? Any chemicals you can name off would have serious effects on any animal... Such as acidity... and lets not forget what gasses do under pressure... Face it DC, this conversation has come full circle. With your lack of any sort of evidence, your lack of sources, and your circular logic, I think it's necessary for me to walk away from this thread and let you post your Fairy Tales as you wish. Oh, and shoot me a message when your book comes out... I can't wait to write a book to follow yours up; I think it will be titled... "DC and The Lollipop Dragon"

(edited for spelling corrections)

Several scientists have come up with plausible means for a dragon to wpew fire, which is hardly more extraordinary than an electric eel or a bombardier beetle. The history channel programs gave one possible explanation.

And humans are able to spew fire, if they put a flamable liquid in thier mouths. Use your head. The dragon Yahweh demanded 'liquor' as well as calves, lambs and children. Maybe he used it to awe his worshipers as the bible states he could spew fire..

Well, unless you are part of some new age "god is a space alien" cult, the preponderance of human religions include dragons in their believs. For the record, I have never stated that a 'creator god is a dragon' though they seem to 'work' for such a deity in may human belief systems, sometime considered a sub-god.

The reason the dragon lore in the (real) Bible is significant, is that the Bible describes a creation epic that causes scientists to marvel becasue of its parallels with science/evolution. It is unlikely bronze age humans could have known these things without a real 'connection' to a real deity.

I think alot of great points are made in this thread. But, you stated that the dragons were Gods? Did I read that right....there is only one God, so wouldnt the dragons be Lords or Archeons or Powers, something below God, a fragment or son of God...would love some thoughts back....

Why cant mankind let go of labels? Why do we label our beliefs as NEW AGE and such. I bet ya that if you took everyone that you would call NEW AGE, and asked them what their deepest thoughts were about their beliefs, I bet they all dont agree. So how can we 'group' individual beliefs? This is the fall that keeps limiting man, man keeps wanting to place boundaries on a belief....WHY? Again, it causes separation, a sense of ego, saying 'you and are I not eqaul because we dont think the same'. People are starting to realize, there is deeper meaning here, so because we see many people questioning the Bible, or saying they have a higher self, or saying they feel they are from a alien soul group....who cares, if it brings them peace and love and brings them to live for others, who cares what you label them with....the point is they are seeking within themselves for answers, this is the ultimate path for growth, some souls are ready for this. I think, that all the NEW AGE is, is that people are tired of being limited, being labeled, being told what to believe. People stepping outside of the box.

Agreed, they are not real gods, just powerful, intelligent animals that early man made into gods. Yes, there would be only one creator but he may have used some incredible life form like dragons to do his bidding.