Before dismissing this out of hand, I would ask everyone read the whole post, and read it from the premise that Yahweh and El (Elohim) the actual Creator are two seperate entities, (as many serious Biblical scholars have proposed), with Yahweh actually being the one of many Bene Elohim, which also includes the creature Satan, long associated with flying serpents and dragons. I repeat, I am not proposing that "God is a Dragon", but that the Creator (El, Elohim), created "dragons" as assistants, that have been mistaken as our Gods around the world, including the "Watcher Dragon" of the Hebrews called Yahweh, who through a minunderstanding of scripture is now worshipped by most Christians and Jews as the actual creator.

Here are the facts:

1. The highest heavenly creatures are called Seraphim, a word which the highly esteemed and scholarly Jewish Enclyclopedia states means "fiery flying serpent", though medieval Christians have transformed these "dragons" into the more familiar, swan-winged, "cartoon" angels of popular culture. When the ancient Jews translated the word Seraphim into Greek, the word they used was drakon, which is the word our modern "dragon" is derived from.

2. The only graven image/idol Yahweh ever permits is that of a "fiery flying serpent", obviously his personal image, This image has supernatural powers, and Yahweh allows it to be freely worshipped in Solomon's temple. As soon as the idol is broken, disaster befalls Israel and it has never recovered until the late 20th century.

3. The flood story of Genesis is believed by most Biblical scholars to be a "retelling" of near identical, yet far older Sumerian versions in which the God name Enlil, who is also subservient to a greater Creator God is called "a Great Serpent-Dragon of Heaven". His hymns also associate him with rainbows as we see in Genesis, and he is called "the good shepherd".

4. Some scholars acknowledge that the Name Yahweh comes from the Cannanite Dragon God Yaw, who like the Biblical Yahweh is a god of storms and floods, but is a "son" of the true Creator Elohim, also the name of the Creator in Genesis, not Yahweh.

5. Virtually every world culture had identified the winged intelligent dragon as a real creature, and most of the earliest cultures recognize it as the creatue that brought them knowledge of agriculture and technology. This is also true in the Judaic legends with the reptilian "watchers".

6. In Exodous, Yahweh leaves his dragon sized tent, and flies ahead of the Israelites to burn away impassable briars and scorpions. He marks the route by spewing smoke and fire.

7. Yahweh plops his huge dragon body in the bed of the Jordan River upstream to divert its flow so the Hebrews can cross its bed to attack Jericho.

8. He is specifically described spewing fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils, exactly like the dragon like Leviathan that the Bible states he "plays" with. (A female dragon?)

9. Many biblical passages imply that Yahweh physically consumed his meat offerings unlike the "fake" gods of other cultures. The Bible is very specific that Yahweh wanted salt on his meat as well, suggesting these offereing were physically consumed and not merely burned to ashes.

10. Like many legendary dragons, Yahweh occasionally "consumes" humans as well, to include two of Aaron's sons who prepared a sacrifice wrong. In scripture, Yahweh demanded the first born of all Israelites, but the bible says it was possible to pay him money instead, on a sliding scale, also indicating the univesal dragon love of hoarding treasure.

11. The preferred prey of dragons in most cultures are "human virgins" for reasons which are not entirely understood. This trait is very apparent in the Bible as well, where Moses presents Yahweh with 32 Midianite virgins after the Israelite destruction of this tribe. No more is said of them so we can only assume they were "consumed" like Aaron's sons.

12. The Persian Zoroastrians, whom share much reiligous doctrine with Christianity clearly state in their own scriptures (the Denkard), that the "God" of Judaism and Christianity who watched of the Israelites and provided their laws was a dragon, and brother to the dragon Ahriman in their own religion. Interestingly, the storm dragon of Sumeria who flooded the world happened to be brother to the dragon Enki who livied the the garden of Eden and who "tricked" a man named "Adam" out of eternal life.

13. Some Christian gnostics also state Yahweh is a dragon in their scriptures.

14. Jesus stated the Pharisees were worshipping a creature that was NOT his father. Many Christians claim Jesus meant Satan, but this does not make sense, for the Jews clearly worshipped Yahweh and clearly recognized Satan as a distinctly different creature which they definately DID NOT worship. Could Jesus have been referring to the Yahweh dragon? After all he did not call to Yahweh from the cross, but to El. The first paragraphs of the Bible show these are two different entities, for El's creation story is completely different from Yahweh's, far less scientific one.

15. Yahweh is described with "feathers", as depicted on most of the most acnient dragon wings and this idea lasted until medieval times, after which dragons became less commonly seen. Saphira in Eragon is reminesecent of these ancient dragon depictions, and probably inspired the design of this character.

Actually there is enough evidence of Yahweh "being a dragon" to literally "fill a book", (as it indeed has, in my upcoming one on this precise subject des), but thought this is an adequate amount of Biblical facts to gender an interesting discussion.

Can anyone refute these Biblical facts? And shouldn't Christians want to embrace these facts, for the worldwide belief in dragons as benificent supernatural entities has far more theological and even scientific precedent than "a bearded old guy on a golden throne? Might it not be a good idea to recreate the fiery flying serpent image Yahweh ordered Moses to make, something very good that cured sickness, and which Yahweh allowed to be worshipped in his temple for centuries, Israel prospering during all the time it was worshipped, and was virtually annihlated as soon as it was broken?
And might there not be some volunteer virgins willing to appease Him for the good of all mankind, not to mention starting up a daily ration of unblemished calves and lambs like the good old days? And liqour. He asks for liquor in the Book of Genesis. (Actually a lot of the ancient Dragon Gods ask for liquor).

I love how you referr to GOD, as a bearded guy on a golden throne, quite stereotypical. An no, I believe my belief in GOD and the holy trinity holds more scientific buoyancy then the dragon theory.

I believe that the consistency's in many different religion's, such as early sumeria where many serpent god's reigned, were passed down into almost folklore, if you will.

First off, there's no scientific bouyancy to either the dragon idea or the trinity idea. None. That's why it's faith.




Human nature is the same from race to race, and we all are descended from a comparatively small pool of common ancestors. That's why religions have similarities. We all are thinking with similar minds descended from the same ancestors. Human wants, needs, desires, are all the same, so the religions created from a collective subconscious are going to have similar themes, despite the seperation of time and space.

As for this dragon idea, several of the points mentioned above just aren't true, and those are just the points I'm relatively familar with. So if the few that I know about are distorted, I can only assume others are as well.

Either way, it's entertaining.

I will begin with your first point about the Jewish Encyclopedia. First of all you are referencing the "babylonian origins" that they posted in it. IF you and anyone here accesses the "Angelology" section of the JE they will see that the Seraphim are considered angels. Secondly this is substantiated in the Jewish Study Bible which is an authorized text for Judaism unlike the JE which is not! Thirdly, the root word for Seraphim is Saraph and is always translated "Firey or "burning" it has absolutely nothing to do with dragones semantically. If Seraphim were dragons the text would have a coupled word that would have used the Hebrew word Tannin.

Also there is no theology in Judaism that Yahweh and Elohim are two different deities. The usage of the words are characteristic definitions of the same God. The Jewish mantra if you will has always been. "The Lord our God is one!" It always has been as such and always will be.

I have often seen the dragon in Jahweh in the Bible, so don't just put DC down all the time folks, just because Christian indoctrination demands it. I do not believe in dragons, but I do understand symbols and metaphors.

There are many scholarly articles that convincingly argue that orignally El and Yahweh are different Entities. This is why there are two completely different creation stories in Genesis, the original, evolution friendly version credited to El and the fairy tale version to Yahweh. And archaeology PROVES That the original Storm dragon Yaw of Cannanite mythology was the son of El, exactly as it is stated in Psalms, and implied in Deuteronomy.
And BOTH Storm Dragon Yaw, and Yahweh the Storm God acknowledge Ba'al Hadad as their sworn enemy. WAKE UP Moondog, they are the same diety. That why the Bible say Yahweh breathes fire, has wings, creates floods, blocks rivers with his body, eats virgins, and hordes gold. As well as being jealous, vindictive, cruel, and generally ungodlike. But don't blame him, he's a dragon who works for El, the creator, just like Quin Ling, Queztalcoatl, Kuklakan, etc. 100 million years ago it was the smartest creature to be a heavenly assistant.


We've gone over this time and time again Moondoggy. NOBODY supports your view. The Jewish Encyclopeadia isn't the only source that states the Seraphim are reptilian creatures, just about EVERY Encyclopedia states this except Christian sources with an "agenda". And we have proof from ancient scriptures translated from Hebrew to Greek, translated by the ancient Jewish priests and Rabbis that translated the Seraphim to DRAKONS. This is an undeniable fact. And there are BOTH ancient Jewish and Christian scriptures that state in black and white that Drakons reside in Heaven. By the middle ages even the Jews became ignorant of much of their ancient knowledge that had to be rediscovered through archaology. And as I explained before, ancient Jewish religious laws prescribed exactly how HOLY DRAKONS must be depicted, and these HOLY DRAKONS decorate the MOST HOLY Jewish religious artifact after the Ark of the covenant, the seven branched Menorah.

You are living in total denial guy. The highest heavenly creatures in Judao Christian Theology are Drakons, including Yahweh.

And yes, Yahweh's Personal Idol which the Hebrews had to adore or be killed by dragons (fiery flying serpents) is called the NehashaTAN. Nehash - Serpent, TAN= Tannyn - DRAGON. Serpent Dragon, the same Title give to the Sumerian Storm Dragon Enlil who flooded the Earth, and who was renamed Yaw by the Cannanites, and who would become Yahweh.

Below is an article by a Christian who is also an expert in Hebrew who supports the fact the Seraphim are flying reptiles, EXACTLY as the Jewish Scholars who wrote the Jewish Encyclopedia say.

Give it up Moondog. The thing that supports your idea of the swan winged, Pagan humanoid "cartoon angel" Seraphim, are ignorant people of the middle ages that lost their knowledge in the dark ages, and of course, your Christian Sunday School Coloring books. All of the archaeology, and ancient scriptures, and Christian and Jewish art ALL SUPPORT the Draconic Seraphim. It is such common knowledge among real Jews in Israel that the AH 64 Helicopter is called the Seraph, after the Biblical Fiery flying serpent. You lose.

Serpentine / Reptilian Divine Beings in the
Hebrew Bible: A Preliminary Investigation
Michael S. Heiser
Introduction
The focus of this brief overview into the matter of serpentine /
reptilian beings in the Hebrew Bible arises from a study of the biblical
Mypr#o (seraphim). Traditionally, the word seraphim has been understood to
derive from the Hebrew verb Pr#o (saraph; “to burn” – hence, seraphim
would mean “burning ones” or “fiery ones”). While this is certainly
possible, there is another very plausible (and I would say more likely)
possibility that either eliminates seraph as the root, or co-exists and overlaps
with it (I think the latter). This alternative root would mean there are clear,
unmistakable references to serpentine / reptilian beings in the Hebrew text
of the Old Testament.
Naturally, for readers of The Façade (or inquirers on my website), this
would dovetail with what I refer to as the “Watcher paradigm” – that the
Watchers, reptilian beings described in religious texts of great antiquity (cf.
the Dead Sea fragment 4QAmram), are the “root origin” of the worldwide
serpent mythologies that have serpentine gods / flying serpentine beings
as those divine beings which bestowed high technology to mankind and
which fathered the first line of god-(human) kings.
The Data to Consider
It is plain from the contents of the Hebrew Bible that a saraph is a
serpent. The word (as a singular or plural noun) occurs seven times.
During the desert wanderings of the Israelites under the leadership of
Moses, God judges the people (Numbers 21:6) by sending
~ypir'F.h; ~yvix'N>h; (hannechashim hasseraphim; “seraph serpents”) to bite them.
The translation “seraph serpents” is more accurate than “fiery serpents”
(KJV) as we shall see. When the people prayed (Numbers 21:7) that the
“serpents” (there, nachash) be taken away, Moses intercedes for the people.
God then instructs Moses to make a saraph (Pr#o) and to put it on a pole, so
that all who would look at it would be healed from the bites (Numbers

21:8). Moses responds (Numbers 21:9) by building a tv,xon> vx;n> (nechash
nechosheth). Note that in this narrative, the Hebrew words nachash and
saraph are used interchangeably. This points to the fact that a saraph is not a
“fiery thing” but simply a serpent. As further proof of this
interchangeability, in Deuteronomy 8:15 Yahweh is praised twice for
bringing Israel through the desert with its notorious nachash saraph.
With this interchange as backdrop, the prophet Isaiah’s use of saraph
/ seraphim sets up the issue of reptilian / serpentine divine beings. In Isa.
14: 29 and 30:6, Isaiah mentions the @peA[m. @r'f' (saraph me(opheph; literally,
“flying serpent”). More on this below. The famous throne room vision of
Isaiah in chapter 6 of his book notes that in the throne room of Yahweh
there were seraphim –serpentine beings. These beings also had wings and
could fly, and had human features as well (hands, face, feet):
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne,
high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphim:
each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his
feet, and with two he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy,
holy, [is] the Lord of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the
door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5
Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and
I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the
Lord of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphim unto me, having a live coal in his
hand, [which] he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid [it] upon
my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and your iniquity is taken away,
and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send,
and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.
In putting these features together, let’s return first to Isaiah 30:6. In that
text, the flying serpents come from the Negev, that desert area between
Palestine and Egypt. These were either real animals, or the term denoted
some type of spiritual (cosmic) enemy. The latter seems preferable, since
throughout the ancient world certain deities were described in such terms
(flying serpents), and there is no such flying animal.1 The term could also
be used of human enemies, as is implied by the other reference to flying
serpents above, Isaiah 14:29:
1 Some speculate that Isaiah is referencing a pterodactyl-like animal, which is both unlikely and
unnecessary given the surrounding religions.

Isa 14:29 Rejoice not, O Philistia, because the rod of him that smote you is broken:
for out of the serpent's (nachash) root shall come forth an asp, and his fruit shall
be a flying serpent (saraph me(opheph).
%Kem; jb,ve rB;v.nI yKi %LeKu tv,l,p. yxim.f.Ti-la; WTT Isa 14:29
`@peA[m. @r'f' Ayr.piW [p;c, aceyE vx'n" vr,Vomi-yKi
This passage is noteworthy on several levels. Three times the enemy of
Israel, the “chosen seed” (cf. Genesis 3:15ff.) is described in serpentine
terms. The “root” or “seed” (offspring, in Hebrew idiom) is described as
the root of the nachash. Readers of The Façade will instantly recognize this
being as the one in the garden of Eden who seduced Adam and Eve. In The
Façade, I argue that the “serpent” (Hebrew, nachash) in the Eden story of
Genesis 3 was not a snake – it was a divine being, a rebel of the divine
council, which met in Eden, the garden of God.2 God curses all parties
concerned at the Fall in Genesis 3. One of the curses involves the “seed” of
the nachash being bitterly opposed (a perpetual enemy) of the “seed” of the
woman (Eve). The seed of the woman is obviously humanity (and
ultimately, the Messiah; cf. Gal. 3:16). Who are the seed of the nachash?
They are both the original enemies of the divinely chosen seed of the godly
(Noah), produced by fallen divine beings in Genesis 6:1-4. These offspring
are called the nephilim (giants) and gibborim (mighty warriors). The
nephilim and / or gibborim produce succeeding generations of enemies of
God’s chosen seed (Israel). It is no mistake that Moses and Joshua and
their armies continually run into these descendants (like the Anakim; cf.
Deuteronomy 3 and Numbers 13). Later enemies, like the Philistines
spoken of in Isaiah 14:29 above, are logically referred to as the “seed of the
nachash” (recall Goliath the giant was a Philistine, and a descendant of one
the nephilim lines).
Curiously, though, they are also called “flying serpents”. What about that?
2 See Ezekiel 28:10ff. Note the PDF file available on my website bookstore that details
these terms as standard descriptions in ancient Canaan for the divine council’s meeting
place.

In general (preliminary) terms, it seems to me that “flying seraph” would be
a better translation of Isaiah 14:29 –
his fruit shall be a flying seraph (saraph me(opheph).
The meaning behind this, as I see it, is that Israel’s enemies would be
descendants of the reptilian / serpentine beings who seduced human
women in Genesis 6. These beings are called Watchers in the book of 1
Enoch, and are described as reptilian in the Dead Sea fragment, 4QAmram.
It is clear from several passages in 1 Enoch that the writer there considered
the seraphim to be serpentine beings (cf. 1 Enoch 20:7, 71:7; 61:10 – a
description of the cherubim and the serpentine beings who guard God’s
throne –cf. Isaiah 6).
Seraphim, then, are reptilian / serpentine beings – they are the Watchers
(the “watchful ones” who diligently guard God’s throne, which is carried
[cf. Ezekiel 1, 10] by the cherubim, who may also serve as guardians).3
There are “good” serpentine beings (seraphim) who guard God’s throne (so
Isaiah 6’s seraphim), and there are fallen, wicked serpentine beings
(seraphim) who rebelled against the Most High at various times, and who
became the pagan gods of the other nations. Interestingly, 4QAmram adds
a feature to the serpentine Watcher that stands opposed to the good
heavenly watchers: the evil Watchers of 4QAmram are also described as
“dark”. This stands in opposition to the luminous or “brassy” appearance
of good heavenly seraphim.
A Brief note on the Root of Seraphim
Above I noted that there was an alternative root possibility that
dovetails more readily with the serpentine context of seraphim. Rather than
the traditional root of saraph (“to burn”), the root of seraphim may come
from the Egyptian srf (“serpent”). Isaiah especially is known for its
Egyptian flavor in parts, and there are numerous texts and artworks in
3 This conclusion is very tentative, and reflects my suspicion that the reason that descriptions of seraphim,
cherubim, and Watchers (in Daniel) as “human like beings clothed in white linen” have overlapping
features (hands, feet, human face, wings) is that they are names for the same entities (cf. not all cherubim
have four faces, e.g.). This would make Satan an original Watcher – at one time a guardian of the divine
throne. I am still thinking about all this, though, and my views may change.

Egypt that describe and depict serpents. Many of them have the srf as
having wings or flying. Others combine this description with fire (and so
this may give rise to a dual wordplay in the Hebrew Bible – where
seraphim refers to a luminous serpentine divine being). This seems most
consistent.
For further reference (texts and iconography):
Karen Joines, Serpent Symbolism in the Old Testament: A Linguistic,
Archaeological, and Literary Study (Haddonfield House, New Jersey, 1974)
“Serpent” in Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible (Brill, 1999)

Well, this one's sure a live grenade.

A have found the link between the Serephim and "fiery flying serpents" before I had even heard of DC. Others have found it independently as well. This one holds up pretty well. Actually, their is logic to DC's points. I, myself had always had trouble with the concept of a benevolent creator, who was also destructive and capricious. I assume that much of this was a bunch of violent nomadic tribes trying to understand how a supreme being would act (if their chieftains are vengeful and petty, then God must be MORE vengeful and petty). I also assumed that much of the supernatural destruction (floods, burning cities, genocide) was probably done by equally zealous angels/seraphrim (we know that they are capable of faults).

So: all of that aside, I am not convinced that Yaweh was a watcher/high seraphim. You'd think he would have corrected the Isrealites that they were worshiping a servant of, and not God himself.

you know, you have got me thinking.

Though I'm pretty sure that what they have been encountering has been misinterpreted as the god father, and that
YHWH, whoever he was, was not the father of Jesus.
But the flood has nothing to do with Judaism, and was a part of another story, not involving YHWH.

I didn't do my homework, so I'll ask you, when is the first time that hame YHWH is mentioned in Jewish texts?

Interesting topic, I would wager that the argument is rather, is the biblical God based on dragon legend rather than to argue he's an actual dragon.

That's right, girl

It's so funny, why we don't talk anymore......ah ah, and and we don't eat pork anymore

I agree. Even Jesus plainly states that the Pharisees were worshipping "The Murderer from the beginning", and NOT his Father the Creator. In Fact, Jesus does not call to Yahweh from the cross, He calls to Eloi (Elohim), who according to Cannanite theology was the Father/Creator of the Storm Dragon Yaw, who would be called Yahweh by the Hebrews. Chrisitians today believe Jesus is referring to Satan, but this makes knows sense becasue the Pharisees were conciously worshipping Yahweh.

I also agree that the Hebrew flood story is based on the Sumerian one. But the Sumerian god who causes the flood is called a dragon, just as Yaw, who becomes Yahweh is called a dragon, ans who is responsible for the same flood. They are clearly the same dragon God known to different people by different names.

Yahweh is first mentioned in Genesis, during the "second creation story". Many scholars believe this was added by the "Yahwehist Priests" much later, and it is completly different with man being created first, before everything else. The Elohim creation is remarkably consistent with Evolution, with life beginning in the sea, with fish, then dragons (dinosaurs) with birds, followed by mammals and man on the last day.

Fine. But then explain why cultures all over the world ALL believed in giant talking, flying reptiles that taught people technologies, liked virgin sacrifices, spewed fire, and hoarded treasure. Just seeing a few dinosaur bones really doesn't cut it, and for centuries even the most educated men reported dragons as real creatures. One "dragon" has been reported 10,000 times since 1932, only we no longer use the "D-word" in describing it.

Because we are all human beings with the same higher reasoning functions. Explain why all human cultures independently breast feed their children, tell bedtime stories, invent legends, explore, travel distances in search of the unknown, gaze at the stars, etc. etc.

We are all the same species. It is no miracle or wonder that we invented the same types of supernatural beings.

Actually that's not what I had min mind.
Flood is not just a Sumerian myth. You can even find a native american legend of a flood and a hollow tree of cypress in which a Noahian figure puts various animals.
I think sumerian attribution of flood to YAH is pretty much as misguided as Jewish attribution of YHWH to Father.
What I think is that flood was indeed a collective decision of the entire council of gods, and the Father, as a way of starting a new world.
They needed a planet with suitable vessels where souls can incarnate, but earth at the time was just anything but that, it was no place
where you can send souls to learn and grow, so it needed to be destroyed to make a new generation of vessels.
The entire ecosystem had been corrupted in one way or another by meddling of all kinds of gods, and entities from other worlds,
and they simply chose the purest lines of creatures to mend what had been done.
You find find entries in the Bible and other texts suggesting that these beings not only mixed with people, but with animals too.
In fact, the legend of Mu says that it was flooded because the reptilian people inhabiting it were matting with all kinds of animals.

It doesn't mean that every person destroyed in the flood was punished and went to hell. It really has nothing to do with that.
It was a plan of destroying the genetic lineages that had been created so far. Its not revenge, it's gardening of biological life.

Sometimes a dragon is used simply as a symbol for the reptilian race, or a snake or a winged snake.
but I do agree with you.
Although I think dragons were related to reptilian race. Possibly a vessel of their intelligence since the time of dinosaurs.
In the same way as giants were related to the "human" race of gods.

maybe dinosaurs were intelligent, sentient beings who taught mankind their knowledge?

I think the size of their brain speaks well about their intelligence. You can't really channel intelligence permanently into a small brain.
though velociraptors were said to be probably as intelligent as chimps.

but that doesn't mean that dinosaur era didn't have its "chief" highly-intelligent creatures, like mammals have humans.

I recall actually hearing of a hypothesis that Yaweh might have been a pagan volcano god, who was later incorporated into the new monotheist framework of Judaism. This was used to explain all of the fire references and hints at old practices of human sacrifices. It is curious to see references to human sacrifice in later times, most Biblical scholars believe that the incident with Isaac represents a change from a time of human sacrifice to something better (I had assumed that Abraham had actually failed God's test, but, since he was loyal he was forgiven).

Also: I checked, and DC is right that there were sects of Gnostic Christians who believed that Yaweh was a dragon.

So: maybe the ancient Israelites did incorporate older symbols into their monotheist system; the Egyptians did this by representing the Atun as the sun, and the Persians did it by representing the creator as a pagan chief-diety (and used the sun reference as well). Regardless, modern Jews, Christians, and Moslems worship the Creator, not the creations. Still, the ancient symbols and rites give some interesting clues as to how current monotheist practices acme to be.

draconic

You know, this thread had lit my imagination for the rest of the day after I read it, and I had to investigate
about offerings, because I was a little rusty on that, and I've found something very interesting:

Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh. For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them: 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.' But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

I have actually read most translations of this part, and in most of them the meaning is the same

god says to take their burned offerings and eat them themselves, because he didn't speak to their ancestors and command them to have sacrifices

Now, a lot of scholars are interpreting this part as : "sacrifices are not enough unless you obey the lord", but
it is clearly stated that he didn't tell them that

except for one translation, which translated this as:
not only did I command them regarding sacrifices etc....

and that last part "went backwards" has a ring to it. It could imply that they went back to their pagan ways,
and there the sacrifices came from.

Here is another part, regarding human sacrifices:

"And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind."


Now it is interesting how every time God speaks to Jews he is mad how they are sinful because they worship idols and do all kinds of terrible things which we rarely heard about.
It is possible that the practices which modern understanding of scriptures understands as part of Jewish religion to YHWH,
is actually the idolatry that God is speaking about through prophets.

My point being, someone ate these sacrifices, and here YHWH tells he didn't command it, so
if there was a dragon involved, it was perhaps a part of their "wrong" worships.

You know, I think a lot has been going on back then, and they saw a lot of strange stuff, and quite frankly couldn't keep up with what came from their god YHWH, and what came from other gods, or dragons or whatever they saw.

It is also mentioned that they brought sacrifices to Baal, perhaps he ate them, and they thought it was Yahweh

Burnt offering is not the best description of these offering for they were expertly roasted to produce a delicious aroma to attract Yahweh -- not the stench of a crematorium. And the Jews boasted Yahweh actually consumed the offering. They believed only the pagans had to burn the offering to ash because their gods were false. Although in the early Old Testament the foreign gods were real as well, but Yahweh was believed to be the best and most powerful god. Yahweh was one of 70 "sons" divided among the different human tribes. I believe these were all "dragons" becasue we have such similar creatures all aorund the world dispensing wisdom to mankind and given sacrifices in return.

Though not commonly publicised, besides the traditional lambs and calves, Yahweh is given captive enemy virgins, and in Genesis He demands the first born son of every Hebrew family, as well as first born animals, and liqour. Dragons the world over always ask for liquour. One time Yahweh consort Ishtar, also originally called a "great and terrible dragon" in her Hymns, is described craving beer.

Some people claim The first born sons that are to be offered to Yahweh only mean to be priests or servants, but there is nothing else in the scripture to support this notion. On the contrary, they are mentioned in the same sentence as other "consumables" such as fruit and liquor.

Genesis 22:29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

Also the next verse confirms these things are to be offered as Yahweh's food.

22:30 Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it to me.

There can be no doubt this meant sacrifices and not servitude for God says LIKEWISE animals would be given to him, and we know these were not intended to be servants, but sacrifices.

Yahweh consumes two priests who were Aaron's sons becasue they didn't cook the sacrifice properly, so he ate them instead. It may be that they forgot to put salt on the fatted calf. This is possible, becasue after this event, the bible is very specific that all of Yahweh meat offerings must be salted.

Of course these sacrifices were orignally meant to literally "feed" the God. Why else would there be instructions how to specifically season the meat? And there are many passages in the Bible and other ancient literatrue of the Gods being attracted to the offering by the delicious smells.

Yahweh cuts the Israelites some slack later on during the exodus and allows His people to ransom their children out of being sacrificed/eaten. The meatier/heavier the intended victim, the more money it costs to buy him back from Yahweh, again clearly indicating their value as real "food". Also to our modern minds, to a God, what would be the point of sacrifices if the God did not actually eat the sacrifices? And if God was merely a spirit there would be no point of sacrifices at all, yet virtually every culture that DID have dragon gods also gave them sacrifices of some sort.

Now later, when the dragons were no longer allowed to interfere in hman affairs, the sacrifices lef to them became symbolic, but there seems to be a literal origin to this practice, and these dragons seem to be very physical creatures. Yahweh blocks the Jordan river with his huge physical body, in Psalms he shelters people with WINGS, He spews fire from his mouth, and smoke from his nostrils, and he "eats". But this is not God, the original Biblical God is El, the creator, who generally is not given sacrifices of real food becasue he is a spirit creature that seems to have created or modified the dragon assistannts recorded all over the world.

Few other dragon gods seem to be as generous as Yahweh in these matters, but it may be that with so many animals available from his subjects, he preferred more gold over eating their children. This love of treasure is another universal trait of dragons. After all the midainites were slaughtered, Yahweh asked for all of the gold taken off their bodies to make the Israelites attone for the slaugher, and he did get all of those virgins too.The scriptures are very clear that Yahweh demanded the first born sons of all the Hebrews, and one time he was given no less than 32 virgins. But fortunately, Yahweh likes treasure too , so for the right price you could by your son back. Its all in the Bible.

I don't have doubt that there was such a creature involved, but I would rather say that this dragon was put to be a physical presence and protection in the name of the
god they had a pact with. Because for example, if you look at Ezekiel, he clearly sees something higher than a dragon when he sees the Lord.
Now YHWH, might have been the name for just the dragon, not the god behind him.
But If you are implying that a dragon was in all of their contacts, like mount Sinai, and visions to prophets (which clearly show thrones, even flying saucers if you will and projections of all kinds of wierd images) , then I can't agree, because I think Jews were actually in contact with a human-god, or angel if you will, which indeed did send Jesus later. I am convinced from your evidence here that there was a dragon involved, but I don't think this creature was the actual deity that had a pact with Jews.

I also have to point (to make sense of my point), that while I do think everything in Jewish scriptures is based on true events, I don't think there is perfect continuity and order of things as they were written down.
In other words, I think, whatever strange they might saw they would attribute to their god, because, even though you can read the Bible in one day, the times between these events were huge, and people get confused, as much as we are confused about Jesus.
This isn't one long religion, it is pieces of religion spread by centuries and even thousands of years.
We can not expect them to have a perfect theological continuity, anymore than we can expect modern church to have a proper and clear understanding of gospels.

It is fully documented that the Hebrews originally acknowledge there was indeed a "god behind the dragon" as you say. The Bible states Yahweh was the greatest of the "Sons of God", and was the "Son" who picked the Hebrew people, just as they believed Ba'al Haddad was another son of the same Creator who picked the Cannanites.

But later on, the Jews would "forget" these things and say that all of the other "Sons of God" in the Bible are "false" and they would meld the dragons Yahweh into El the non-dragon, supernatural creator, and make them the same God. This is why there are two different creation stoires in Genesis, Elohim's Creation that reflects evolution and Yahweh's more fanciful creation in which Adam is the first thing created on the Earth, and animals later, "to keep him company".

DC, have you considered how the wider relegious community would react if people began taking this idea more seriously? I somehow don't imagine that it will be taught in Sunday School.

It is not my view DC. It is the view of classical Judaism. I am just citing what is there. Any student of Judaism would say the same regarding Yahweh. To say that no one agrees with what I have posted is nonsense. Please feel free to read the works of Gamaliel and Maimonodes upon which all Judaic theology hinges upon to this day.

News Flash to serious biblical students: There are over 100 usages of this word "SARAPH" in the OT. Please I invite you all to look them up providing you can use a Hebrew concordance. All the usages will reveal the true meaning of this word. This is the true test for grammatical accuracy. You will see that it just means "fiery", or "burning" or to "burn". Please do not take my word for it and check it out if you want to see that I am not the smoke blowing "dragon" here, but what I have posted is accurate.

No, no. We believe ya. Man, you've saved the world for us, Moondoggy

Another News Flash:

It's Christmas on December the 25th

Dr. Heiser is a Christian, and a Hebrew scholar, and I dare say he knows far more about the language than you, and he states from the original source material that the Seraphim of the Bible are definately winged reptilian entities. And the ancient Jews translated the word Seraphim to Drakons. And the ancient Christians depicted them as winged serpents or dragons. And the ancient Jews decorated the holiest temple furniture with "Holy" Drakons, and the scholars of the esteemed Jewish Encyclopedia state they were originally winged reptiles, and even today in Israel, this is such common knowledge that the AH64 attack helicopter is nicknamed the Seraph, complete with a seraph dragon painted on its nose. Oh, and the ancient Egyptian had a winged serpent-dragon called a Seraph as well. The evidence is overwhelming Moondoggy. Your silly, swan winged, harp strumming, "cartoon" seraphim angels out of your Sunday School coloring books are in reality the winged dragons believed in by virtually every human culture since the dawn of civilization. And guess what, many of the greatest men of the past admit to the existence of dragons, but I don't recall any eyewitness sighting os swan-winged cartoon angels.

There is a very good reason the word seraph ALSO means burning, or fiery. It is becasue this is what dragons "do". They burn things with their fiery breath. And Yahweh's fiery breath and smoldering nostrils are described in the Bible.

Trying to trick us all, eh, Moondoggy. Ya finished now, lad

Its pretty clear Judaism was not a monotheism until after the Jews returned from their Babylonian captivity. Prior to this, the 69 other Bene elohim (70 including Yahweh) were all sons of El though the Hebrews regarded Yahweh as the greatest and wisest. This is plainly stated in Psalms and Deuteronomy as discussed before, and this is an identical belief to the Cannanites, in which the Dragon Yaw was the favored son of El. The Jews even acknowledged Yahweh's consort Asheroth. The hostility between Yaw and Ba'al in both Hebrew and Cannanite theology may stem from a rivalry over the dragoness Asheroth. Yaw apparently wins when all of Ba'al worshippers are slaughtered by the Hebrews. With no sacrifices, he would leave, though occasionally there are Biblical accounts of people wanting to gain Ba'al Haddad's favor, which angered Yahweh.

The theory that Yahweh is a "volcano god" is pretty lame. He is described with fire spewing from his mouth, smoke from his nostrils. He is described with wings and is given virgins and meat sacrifices, and when known as Yaw his was called a dragon, just as Zoroastrians and gnostic Christians also acknowledge.

It is the dragons Yahweh, brother of Ahriman that is supposed to destroy a third of mankind in the Zoroastrian legends. When John rewrote this for Revelation, the dragon becomes an army of snake tailed, fire spewing horses with mouths like lions., but they do kill the exact same one third of mankind. Coincidence?

Actually, I didn't say the volcano god theory was mine, just that this isn't the first time that someone has pointed out certain OT inconsistancies. Frankly, if Yahweh isn't El, than you explanation makes more sense than the volcano paradigm.

Do you propose that he originally described himself as the Creator, or that people originally knew of his station, and that later he was confused with the Creator?

Not at all Libra. That is why I recommend people look it up themselves. You can see over 100 usages in their context by using an analytical concordance. One does not need to be a so called scholar in order to read. Also to use a reference as DC does, like the Israeli helicopter is a stretch by any means of reason. They call the helicopter the "Saraph" because of the "fire" it can bring, not because of some dragon myth. The definition holds. We called our helicopters "Cobra's" because of the "sting" they would bring to the enemy.

You are afraid to examine the other usages. Because you will see the word defined rather than relying on others to do the work for you. Be original here and put some effort in it.

Fair enough, Moondoggy, but I was only joking around, lad. No skin off my back who "wins" here, but I really am glad to have DC around, and I wish there were more like him here in U-M. People like DC make me think and I love that.

Take care, Moondoggy

You are so full of it Moondog. The Wiki article on the Seraph actually said the helicopter was "named after the Biblical fiery flying serpent" but apparently some Christian heretic edited the page. The Jewish Encyclopedia written by fluent Hebrew speakers say the Seraph is "the fiery flying serpent of the Bible", and the Hebrew speaking Israeli Air Force named the helicopter after the Biblical Creature. NOT because it burns, pilots don't want their helicopters to burn. Time to quit, guy, you are making yourself look like a moron again. Like you really know more about this than the Jewish Encylcopedia or the Israeli Air Force. Give it up.

Interesting.

Do you have any idea how big this creature might have been?

Don't know how big he was at first, NW, but he obviously got bigger and bigger:

42 And when they were restored to rods, the rod of Aaron swallowed up their rods.
43 And when the king saw this thing, he ordered the book of records that related to the kings of Egypt, to be brought, and they brought the book of records, the chronicles of the kings of Egypt, in which all the idols of Egypt were inscribed, for they thought of finding therein the name of Jehovah, but they found it not.
44 And Pharaoh said to Moses and Aaron, Behold I have not found the name of your God written in this book, and his name I know not.
45 And the counsellors and wise men answered the king, We have heard that the God of the Hebrews is a son of the wise, the son of ancient kings.

From The Book of Jasher, chapter 79. Compare with Isaiah 19,11

Yahweh is probably representative, though His important among other dragons may mean he is larger. The parameters we have are the fact these dragons are large enough to swallow people alive (as several accounts and even some scripture attest, yet Yahweh must be small enough to comfortably fit in his tabernacle. I think 60 feet is a good estimate, thus comparable to the largest known carnivorous dinosaur, the Spinosaur. Yahweh also uses his massive dragon body to divert the Jordan River. The exact location is mentioned in the Bible, and having visited the vicinity, I would say a sixty foot long theropod like Spinosaur, and therefore presumeably Yahweh, could divert the river there exactly like the bible describes, and with no hocus pocus, just tons of dragon.

The Jewish Encyclopedia has an article about Seraphim, here it is :-



http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...88&letter=S


The highlighted sections seem to be relevent to the debate here, The scholars seem to dismiss Isiah's eyewitness report (unreliable?) seeing him as a poetic visionary.
Instead they conclude that the term has its origin in the same place as dragon, Snake.

They mention the Brazen Serpent idol that Moses was commanded to setup, You can search for the good article on the Brazen Serpent- and then further links to Animal Totemism etc.
It appears to me that this image (Brazen Serpent) was likely to have been of a poisonous snake (horned viper?) , and along the process of this totem entity becomming the focus of a cult (one that had to be abolished later because it 'conflicted' with the sole worship of God) the serpent entity 'aquired' wings and possibly other attributes.........
it would be nice to find various representations of the totem in this timeline to mark its development.

We can see this same development with the 'dragon'. Greek mythology abounds with tales of great serpents which 'watch over' items for a god, or do the bidding of a god (hence their name). In their earliest depictions-which predate most of our literary evidence- these creatures are not winged they are great big snakes, they are called singularly 'drakon'. in some depictions they appear to fly...but have no wings. It is during the Late Classical/ Early Hellenistic -to-Roman period that we begin to see depictions of dragons with wings, the one or two exceptions to this are due to cross cultural contact--Something the Hellenistic period later greatly facilitated.

I realise that some of you will read the above article and other relevant ones in the Jewish Encyclopedia differently, and am interested in your views.

That is an interesting quote Libra, as it states Yahweh is the son of a greater God, which would be El, exactly as the ancient Hebrews believed before the monotheistic reforms made after the Babylonian captivity. And the Cannanite dragon Yaw was also the son of the great El, the creator in the first Genesis account.

Another interesting fact is that Aarons rod does not turn into a snake, but into a dragon, a Tannin. This creature is incorrectly translated in most modern Bibles as whale, but obviously a whale isn't goint to be flopping around in the middle of Pharoahs court. Sorcery if forbidden by God in the Bible yet Moses seems to be a sorcerer. I believe this story was changed when Yahweh was turned into a monotheistic, humanoid God. Originally the staff was probably used to summon the Dragon Yahweh when Moses was in danger, and perhps it was he who swallowed up the Egyptians trying to harm Moses. How else could moses surived this audience with Pharoah? Later, when yahweh was no longer supposed to be a dragon, the story was changed.

The word Tannin is used for the creatures created along with the birds in the Elohim creation story in the epoch after the fish, but before the mammals. They are huge creatures, and must mean the dinosaurs (which have a connection with birds, which science has only recently discovered), but also this word is used for the dragons who live in the time of men, that sing praises to God, and helps Moses in the encounter with Pharoah.

The writers of that article did know their Hebrew (unlike moondog), but could not know of the bronze libation bowl discovered decades later and now believed to be Babylonian loot from the temple of Solomon. It depicts the brazen seraph on a pole, and it is in fact, a winged reptile. If it was a simple snake, it would not have been worshipped. It was worshipped becasue it was obviously the idol of Yahweh, but nowadays this notion is unthinkable to both Jews and Christians, so do not expect to get an unbiased account from these sources. Yahweh is described with wings, breathing fire and smoke, with a body large enough to block rivers, is offered virgins, apparently eats first born children along with calves and lambs, and ordered an idol of a winged dragon built and worshipped under pain of death. If this diety was anything but the God of the Jews and Christians, intelligent people woud say this is obviously a dragon god.

Read Heiser's article. The creatures that attack the Israelites are no mere snakes, but supernatural winged reptiles that serve the Hebrew God (or they are Yahweh's dragon buddies out for a good time).i Or they could be both, actually.

Thanks, DC. I'll get back to ya at some time or another

Love ya, mate

No worries! There is two sides to every story. It is more a matter of winning with DC. I do not think he is in a position to overthrow established Judaic doctrine. Take care Libra as well.

I unlike you actually read books in my education. Any serious student would rely on a Hebrew dictionary and Lexicon for a word definition. All of them state other wise to your folly. The great thing is that people can look it uo for themselves rather than twisting definitions. You and everyone here has not stepped up to the plate to even read one of the over 100 usages of the word "Saraph" to see it's true root word meaning. Also not one here has bothered to read the "Angelology" section of the un-authorized Jewish Encyclopedia which defines the "Seraphim" in the 10 order of Angels and calls them spirit beings. Again you and I hope any SERIOUS seeker would bother to look it up. Face it DC, you will never undo Judaism because I am sure they would laugh at the bible origins amateur website. I tell you what, if you actually get your "book" published other than by self publishing. I will buy several copies and personally send them to Tel Aviv University for their analysis.

Well, Moondoggy, there certainly has been a bit of contention on this subject before. Angels have variously been described as taking the forms of men (indicating their real from was something other), non-physical beings, winged humanoids, sphinx-like creatures, four-faced chimeras, and of course, flying, fiery, serpents. I believe that the preponderance of information indicates the latter was most often believed to the true form of Serepherim.

I believe the the works of the Bible may have been divinely inspired, but edited by men. I think that these were collections of tribal wisdom, early histories, and priestly writings. They were edited in Alexandria, and certain works (Aproricah) were removed. Then, the Bible was edited again with the formation of the Catholic Church.

Angels have always been a contentious issue in monotheism. They fulfill an important role as intermediaries, instructors, protectors, and examples. However, ecclesiastical authorities have always been concerned that people may begin to worship them directly.

How many times do we have to go over this. Distinguished Hebrew Scholars who wrote the Jewish Encyclopedia support the Reptilian seraphim. The Christian Hebrew Scholar Dr. Heiseer, who knows far moe about this than you also supports this translation. The Ancient Jews themselves translated the word to DRAKONS.

I am not trying to Undo Judaism, you are. Ancient Judaism acknowledged the seraphim were dragons. That's why there are dragons on the Holy Menorah. That's why the real Jewsih scholars agree with me. Ancient Christians also acknowledged the Seraphim are dragons, as I have proven here many times before. But you believe in a nonsensical, non-biblical Sunday school theology where anything in the bible that seems unsavory to the Anglo-Saxon mind is simply expunged from it.

The noun Seraph, which is documented much earlier than the Bible is the Seraph that appears in the Egyptian Pyramid texts. And guess what, it is a fiery flying serpent, EXACTLY as the Hebrew ones are described. There can be no doubt that the hebrews took this word from the Egyptians.

Yes, legends say they spew fire, and this is why there are verbs connected to burning and fiery associated with the creature.