Someone said that 'Religion is the cause of wars.' I don't think so rather it detered it.

If everyone did as they please without account to thier actions to a higher being, more people would choose to do bad without remorse. To cause wars and maybe an end of life scenario.

There are many holy wars, but I believe religion is just a sheild from what really lays behind it all...MONEY, LAND, OIL & least I forget - POWER

Religion is the cause of some wars, but if it weren't religion it would be something else. People will always find reasons to fight, which is sad. And a lot of people do as they please without account to their actions and have no remorse....That will always happen. But I believe that people that choose Atheism are generally good people, and probably just as many, if not more, as their are good Christians.

I personally don't keep myself from doing bad cause I'm a Christian....as a matter of fact, I feel obligated to do bad things so that I feel better about myself when I do good things....hahaha...J/k. I think its all about how your raised and live your younger teenage days as well, religion or no religion.....it's about choice.

No there would not be peace without religion. Nothing would change much other than the timeless debate "who's right and who's wrong?"

I disagree. While I dont think that there'd be no wars without religion, I dont think religion has prevented any wars, but rather been accountable for a few.



What makes you think it would please people to do bad things?

Selfishness... Greed... Jealousy... Regular ole hatred. Those are among the chief causes of war. That they are masked under the guise of respectability by using the umbrella of religion, or racial purity, or whatever else will get the buy in from the people. To say religion has caused wars shows a very shallow understanding of history and of humanity.

um you spelled their wrong, its also the wrong word...

no even if there was no relegion people would fight over other things.

Study history, SOME of the most barbaric wars were attributed to "gods will". EDIT: Of course, without religion, humans would find something else ( skin color, nationality, political ideology, etc) to fight over.



And we all know that no one who has 'faith' ever commits any wrongful act..............



People in glass houses................

Launched by Pope Urban II at the Council of Clermont in 1095, the First Crusade was the most successful. Urban gave a dramatic speech urging Christians to swarm towards Jerusalem and make it safe for Christian pilgrims by taking it away from the Muslims. Jerusalem had no natural resources which Europeans needed; instead, it's "holiness" meant that Christians needed to control it rather than infidel Muslims. It should be little wonder, then, that secular critics of religion focus so much on the Crusades as a prime example of what's wrong with religion and why religion can be so dangerous.

Urban promised that those who agreed to take up the cross and participate in a religious war against Muslims would have their sins forgiven. This sanctified the violence which was to be caused, transforming it into a holy act designed to take control over a holy site. There was little economic value to the Crusades, aside perhaps from protecting trade routes, but the religious value to leaders of the Christian church was immeasurable. There is little difference between this doctrine of holy violence and the belief of many Muslims today that dying as a martyr will ensure one's entry into heaven.

The great success of the First Crusade served as an inspiration to all later religious wars launched by European Christians against Muslims in the Middle East. No other Crusade was nearly as successful, and most were utter failures, but participants in all were convinced that with enough religious faith they would be sure the repeat the same successes and conquer all the lands around Jerusalem. Faith, not military tactics, diplomacy, or politics was the driving force here.

Without pressure being applied by popes and other religious authorities on political leaders to protect, defend, or conquer the Holy Lands, most would have stayed home to concentrate on their own lands, relatives, and problems. Indeed, recalcitrant kings who didn't launch crusades fast enough were a problem for several popes. It didn't take long for secular leaders to realize that military expeditions against the Muslims cost far more than they could possibly gain, but popes and the church sacrificed little of their own and refused to give up he use of violence to pursue conquest over Islam.

The armies of the First Crusade left European cities in 1096 and finally captured Jerusalem in 1099. Devastation was caused all along the way - first among Jews in Europe then later in Muslim areas. From these conquered lands Crusaders carved out small kingdoms for themselves which endured for some time, though not long enough to have a strong, long-lasting impact upon local culture. This map depicts the basic route taken by the Crusading armies and the major cities which they captured on their way to Jerusalem. You can also see the small and vulnerable size of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem.

to say religion hasn't caused wars is shallow and uneducated.

Religion is just the vehicle by which certain power-hungry individuals have used to further their own goals (like said - oil, land, greed, power). If it wasn't religion, people would just find a different excuse to kill each other. Religion has probably been responsible for some wars, but for the very vast majority, you will find that there are other reasons for it. Getting rid of religion won't help at all.

~ PA

There wont be peace on Earth until the human race is dead and gone, too bad nobody will be around to experience it.

Our successors, whatever species evolves to fill our niche, will

Abolishing religion...while it would be fun...wouldn't solve anything. If anything it keeps all the idiots in check.

People can't even queue in the bakers without arguing, I don't think lack of all religions would make the slightest difference

1- All wars are fought over resources. Religion is nothing more than an identifying characeristic

2- The crusades were NOT fought over religion. They were fought over land and trade routes. The poor ignorant masses who had to bleed and die in the desert (hm...history repeats itself...) were told it was over religion because it's easier to get a man to die for his God than for his leader's purse.




Nonsense. Most athiests are moral, ethical people for the sake of maintaining a just, benevolent society so that they and their offspring have a secure culture and society in which to live. To imply that religion is necessary to enforce a moral code today is silly.

You will please note that religions have coexisted peacefully wherever there was not a dispute over resources.

Ahem>>>>>> "WONDERFUL EVENTS THAT TESTIFY TO GOD'S DIVINE GLORY"

Too bad you can't tell that to the victims.

Welcome Neo to UM forum.



Not quite true.

Cause of the Crusades
The reason and cause of the crusades was a war between Christians and Moslems which centered around the city of Jerusalem and the Holy places of Palestine. The City of Jerusalem held a Holy significance to the Christian religion. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem commemorated the hill of crucifixion and the tomb of Christ's burial. Pilgrims throughout the Middle Ages made sacred pilgrimages to the Holy city of Jerusalem and the church. Although the city of Jerusalem was held by the Saracens the Christian pilgrims had been granted safe passage to visit the Holy city. In 1065 Jerusalem was taken by the Turks, who came from the kingdom of ancient Persia. 3000 Christians were massacred and the remaining Christians were treated so badly that throughout Christendom people were stirred to fight in crusades. These actions aroused a storm of indignation throughout Europe and awakened the desire to rescue the Holy Land from the grasp of the "infidel."

More here: middle-ages.org


100% true.

There are all sorts of reasons for wars, religion is just one. Oil, power, terrirtory and other resources are all major causes of war, IMO religion is one of the minor causes now-a-days.

I disagree. The crusades were fought over trade routes and property. It wasn't until acesst to these trade routes was limited that Europeans started to care about the middle east and islam. The mistreatment of christians was exaggerated, the mistreatment of Muslims BY christians was downplayed, and the cross was touted out and rallied around. NOT for the religion, although that's what the ignorant thought. It was about trade routes and land, with religion used, as it ALWAYS is, as an antagonizing factor to rally people to come and kill and die.

A peasant isn't going to kill and die so that his lord can have more land. But he will kill and die if he thinks it's for his god.

I can see we'll continue to disagree, but I stand by my position that the crusades were about land and trade routes with religion used as both an identifying and antogonizing factor. Before there was restriction on trade routes, europeans were perfectly happy to let islam have the "holy" land.

Religion more or less means power - in my opinion, and it makes no difference who holds the power if they all think alike, and that includes the politicians.
But would there be peace without RELIGION itself? the answer is YES, YES, YES, but only because it would have been eliminated by some world wide Stalinist-Fascist regime such as the one we know from George Orwell's "1984". That of course is part of the reason why I have made it very clear to Blue on several occasions, that I have no wish to break any religion down. Without the religions there is no democracy, just like there will be no religions without democracy - in my opinion.
In post #2, Becky's Mum says:

"There are many holy wars, but I believe religion is just a shield from what really lays behind it all...MONEY, LAND, OIL & least I forget - POWER"

Now I don't agree with her about the the whole lot, but I do believe she's got the most of it right.
The religions needs a damned good kick up the a... - in my opinion, but then so does democracy, because "1984" is slowly smothering it to death.
Peace comes when people learn their children to love and understand others. The schools could be a helpful tool in the process.

Sorry about my scruffy English and that I'm such a drunken git, folks, but I've got my reasons for both.

there are other ways to eliminate religion, like the science world proclaiming it an illness which needs to be treated for the safety of self and others (like psychosis) and hospitalize religious people.
But that couldn't happen until there were less than say 10% religious people in some society

But I think it probably will one day, when the number gets low enough

hmmm....you seem to sure know whats appropriate for others' lives, dont you?

i think the word your looking for is "communism"

You were talking to me or someone else?

you speak of eliminating relgion?

Yes, it will most certainly happen one day

whether you can call it communism or not, is relative

and you blame relgioin for all the problems and wars in the world? wars begin when you take away what people prize. wars begin when you decide that you know whats right for others.

No, I AM religious.And besides, why do we hospitalize delusional people? They "have the freedom" to believe whatever they want. Don't they?The only reason religious people aren't hospitalize is because there are to many of them

wars begin when you take away what people prize. wars begin when you decide that you know whats right for others.so, YOU need to be hospitalized, right?

I am not hospitalized because I hide my beliefs

But thats detrimental to the future of human evolution. We are going to have to cast off these ancient superstitions if we are going to go forward together as a species, not a bunch of groups whose holy book tell them to hate each other.




It's not only resources, I think fundamentalism does damage to relations between religious groups. More moderate people are more likely to get along, but when people who are so certain that they're right and everyone else is wrong show up, it ruins the balance. Take Israel for example, alot of Arabic countries get along well with Israel, the only ones that dont have either been attacked by Israel or are run by fundamentalist crackpots.

...and because they can be associated with christian mainstream

dude, i think your blood-sugar is out-of-whack or something.

What? Can you please explain what are your objections to my point?

you say religious people should be "hospitalized", yet your religious.

I'm not saying the SHOULD, did I ever use the word should?

I said the will be one day.

right.....

what's wrong now?

Would you please provide proof of this?

Please provide proof of this assertion, thank you.


What evidence do you have for this?

Isn't the fact that there are always these people with certainty around an indication that moderate stances are not stable?

Why does anyone think that if there is no religion we're all going to go off the deep end and hurt each other? Why do people have so little faith in themselves? Why is god necessary to be a decent, caring human being?

its not even about that. we have laws to encourage moral decisions. its about peoples freedom to feel and do as they wish. i dont agree with your views, but i dont pretend to have the right or the insight to tell you how you should feel.

Topically, I heard a song today. My supervisor is a good ole country boy, and listens to some hill-billy country station.
This morning a song came on, I have no clue the title or artist, but the lyrics really pissed me off.
It tells the story of a child, living in a home with her mom & dad, and they "never introduced her to Jesus".
It then goes on telling us how mom & dad are drunks & drug abusers.
It gets worse but thankfully I have blocked most of it out. The end though, tells us that after this girls parents die from their wicked ways, the girl is adopted by 'right-thinking', jesus worshippers who will now give her love & redemption.

I know what you mean, NW. Sorry for "misunderstanding" you from time time.
Don't worry about, my friend, things will be fine

What? Where did you appear from now. It's not you misunderstood me in this topic. It was Milky Silky

Misunderstand and "misunderstand" are two very different things, my friend.

Godnight and take care, NW.

what does "misunderstand" mean?

I'm sorry, but a lot of people are saying that the root of all wars is resources and money...but do you really think a suicide bomber is blowing himself (or herself to be pc) because they are getting money? People don't blow themselves up for money. They do it because they believe their God wants them too. I'm not saying all wars will end if religion ends, but it would seem that it would cut down on things like that.

Just wanted to add one more thing. When I say that I think religion causes war, I'm not saying that belief in god starts war. I have no problem with individuals believing in god, jesus, whatever they want. If you feel better for following the bible, go for it. What I am saying is that organized religion has perverted the whole idea of believing in god. Organized religion tells you what to believe, how to interpret it, and how to act upon it. Organized religion, in my opinion, is around just to make some people rich. And yes, organized religion starts war...and probably for money and resources, but the people fighting don't know that. They are fighting on the belief that their religious leaders tell them that it's god will. That's what I have a problem with. I personally don't see what going to church, and putting your money in the pot has anything to do with god. If one believes in god, that, to me, seems like a deeply personal thing. So, I'm not arguing that we should abolish the belief in god, but I am saying that religion does start wars, more then likely for the reasons of greed, which is sad that something that is supposed to show it's people morality is used to kill and reap the financial rewards.

Why don't you then say "organized religion" instead of religion.
It seems to me religion stopped meaning spiritual belief at some point and started meaning churchgoing

When I say a lot of wars...I didn't mean ALL wars...and besides..this whole blowing yourself up thing is a command...if they don't do it, their family will get killed, and they are told they are doing Allah's will..also if you look at the bigger picture...behind that same war is about OIL and POWER....

I defense of going to a church, it’s much the same as any other belief and that is to be with like minded people who enjoy doing the same things together. In this case like worship.
I believe in giving back to the community and so I associate with like minded people within a national service club (Kin Canada) like Lions International as well as individual churches I do not begrudge paying my dues for membership much the same as church attendees contribute financially to the church they belong to.

Irish