It's true.. religious people do trust science more than they trust God.

Most people wouldn't agree with that statement, but let me give an example..

You are religious. You believe that there is an almighty God governing the universe with absolute power over it.

One day, your throat begins to hurt. The neck starts swelling up, it becomes painful to swallow. You are quite sure you've come down with strep throat.

What do you do?

A) Pray to your God, and trust that he will heal it for you.
Go to a doctor, and get some penicillin, an option which has been enabled for you by science.

Almost everyone on the earth, religious or not, will choose option B. Why? Because they know that when they get sick, the place to go is the doctor's office, where they can be healed and reap the benefits of scientific progress. They've done it before, so it becomes reliable and they place trust in their local clinic.

Now, I don't know about every religion, but at least Christianity says that if Christians have faith in God, he will provide for them, as we can read in their Bible:



And I would assume that most other religions say these types of things as well.

So then why? Why don't these religious people simply pray when they are sick, and trust that their God will provide as their religion says he will? Well, it's simple, religious people have learned that prayer will not work for them in those situations. If you just pray to your God when you get strep throat, it will develop and give you a plethera of conditions, possibly even death. Once again, religious people have more faith in the products of science than they do in their God, because Science has firmly established the fact that it works, and works well for that matter. With proper antibiotics, you won't even feel that strep throat within 1-2 days.

The only possible answer I could imagine from a religious standpoint would be that God inspired this scientific progress. But that springs up new questions, namely: Why didn't he do it sooner, so less people died or suffered prematurely? Why did he use the same process to inspire these medicines, as is used to contradict the many religions and the very idea of Creationism, with theories like the big bang and abiogenesis? Modern medicine is obviously the sole work of mankind.

Why you little smart*ss..........get over here right now.........I don't like sparing my rods you little spoiled.......... !!!

I have been asked that question before, and I usually say that God has given us wisdom and hope that we are smart enough to see the doctor. I know thats a lame answer, but its also very simple. And as far as why didn't He do it sooner? Not sure, but even today people suffer.


I agree that Science and God work together, how to break it apart and make sense of it is a mind bender for me. There are things we will never have answers for, and trying to find one can only create more questions.

Here's a question: Take the Big Bang theory for instance. It started with an atom (or whatever it was), and from that it exploded and created the Universe, right? Where did that atom come from? How was it formed? And if there was no space, time or matter....where did that atom exist? Where was it if there was nothing? I've come to terms with myself and know that questions like this may never be answered by Christians or any other group for that matter.

excelelnt point KBA, and very factual, they for some reason leave this out alot on here anyways........

God gave you brains for a reason...to USE them...common sense will tell you that you need to seek medical help if you are sick....if you ignore a doctors advice...more fool you

I understand as to WHY people pray when sick...I do, to pray that whatever help I recieve from a doc, that it goes well and I get better....pray that it works.....NOT pray that I get hit by a mirical and get cured instantly without seeing a doc...thats just nuts

But if a Christian takes that "use" of his/her brain far enough, they may come to the conclusion that their bible isn't true.
I shouldn't be surprised that they can trust medicine but not other areas of science though, the average Christian is known for their picking and choosing.

I did it lol....took a while to figure it out and then came to a decission...its not true lol

Well yes, common sense tells you you have to see a doctor. It IS common sense that just praying to a God will get you nowehre. And that's perplexing, if there really is a God and he actually claims he will provide for his followers. Why would they seek the help of doctors over the help of God, when their beliefs tell them God will provide for them? It sounds ridiculous because it is. Prayer doesn't work in the real, rational world.. and this is the best I can do to prove it.



I think I made a good point in the OP, let's try not to steer off into a big bang debate. Any number of things could have caused that condensed portion of matter which exploded, we don't know yet. Assuming it was a god makes no sense.

And what did God do for people before there were doctors? He didn't increase the lifespan of faithful people then, appealing to God was just as ineffective before there was a good alternative to it. Why would God "give you the wisdom" to seek a doctor, if he wants you to seek him in all facets of life? That doesn't make much sense.

IMO prayer does work...but you must be willing to meet God half way...dont sit on your jacksie and expect god to do it all for you...if that were the case..this world as we know it would be over flowing with lazy bast*rds!! pure and simple..it would get to a point where - .nobody would be willing to wipe their own backside for petes sake...hey don't bother...just pray and hey god might feel in a generous mood and take a sh*t for ya as well as wipe your backside!!!!!!!!!!...Dont think so some how!! whats the point in creating humans if you are going to do all for them...it;'s like building a robot and then doing all for it ...pointless!!

This reminds me of that "joke" of a man who was trapped in his home during a hurricane with the water rising. People on boats came to rescue him, but he died anyway. When he got to heaven he asked god why did you not save me, and god replied that wasn't the people in the boats miracle enough to rescue him? Something like that...

Anyhow. I think people get disappointed when divine miracles do not come their way. They pray and pray for the situation to change for them, but do nothing. God helps those who help themselves. God gave us a brain to think. We do not have to be attached to his hip like a whining baby all the time when there are times we can help ourselves.

It's interesting you use medical for an example. I live around a lot of these old timey christians. Actually, my great-grandfather who just passed away recently was one of the types of people who relied on God to heal their ailments.

He had crippling arthritis in his hands, but he got around good with it. His prayer for it to go away might not have been answered, but he did just fine with it and used his hands like any other normal human beings. I think thats a miracle in itself being he was over 90.

Interesting topic .

I find it interesting that it took this long for someone to post this.
i find this whole topic amazingly interesting..also amusing.

reminds me of convos ive had with the godly, claiming that they or their loved one pulled through cancer or what ever it was with the help of jesus, jesus saved my life, its a miricle, to which i reply with, oh you didnt seek medical treatment at a hospital?
oh of course i did!
hm, you think the recovery might have something to do with medical science, not "gods hand"

well alot of people died alot sooner before medicine..Zombie my mom a devote catholic and my grsndmother and a few others i have known with cancer never once mentioned god , but didin't waste a minute being grateful for sceince...LOL..so you have a point....

Frankly, I find this topic irritating. If you really do not believe that anyone throughout time and including the present has not miraculously been healed of this disease or that illness without doctors having a clue as to how, then you really know very little. I not only have known folks, like my mother, who have refused to take pills or seek medical methods for their terminal care, (my mother has lived with MS for close to 40 years without medical care), or like Don Piper who had died but was unexplainably brought back after a minister he had never met prayed for him, but I have also read and listened to hundreds of stories about people being cured without the doctors knowing how. If you cannot find it in your heart to believe it is God and that prayer had something to do with it, fine, but really, to make the assertion that prayer doesn't work is ridiculous.

You say "If you really do not believe that anyone throughout time and including the present has not miraculously been healed of this disease or that illness without doctors having a clue as to how, then you really know very little." Nobody denies this i assume you imply it was caused from devine intervention and i suspect you think that wishful thinking and word of mouth is undeniable evidence suggesting something like this has happened. Just because you are absolutely sure this MUST have happened at some point in time, does not mean it has happened.
I do find it unfortunate that you almost brag that your mother has refused to take pills or seek medical treatment for her MS (assuming that's as true as you claim) because the fact is and anybody can do a google on this, its well known that the symptoms of MS CAN drop off completely without any medical treatment what so ever, it can go into remission, its KNOWN that it does this just as its been known to re laps without warning.
It angers me to no end when the godly spectacularly claim a healing because EVERY time the 'evidence" is sensationalised, inconclusive then propelled into an absolute fact thru these circles as a testament to the glory of god!
reminds me of the simpsons that was on last night with that angel skeleton and homers on about "facts? who needs facts! facts can prove ANYTHING!"
this is the method of logic your adopting. sorta funny yes.
except you don't hear about all the negative stories that arise as a result of this.
Botton line, there are lots and lots of STORIES of healings, but never a healing as a result of prayer.

of course people make mystery recovories!!! doctors dont know EVERYTHING and cant predict EVERYTHING its common sense
that number pales in comparison to the number of unexplained DEATHS, see it all depends on the angle you look at it.

Why not:

C) All of the above.

??????????????

Just because God has given us the power of prayer doesn't mean we don't use the power of medicine also. Praying doesn't mean disavowing oneself of all scientific understandings. Nor does using medicine imply a lack of Faith in God. That's just obvious.

~ Regards, PA

Well, there are a few factions of Christians that don't believe in seeing doctors and believe in prayer only healing.

See Christian Scientists.

Unfortunately, because of their beliefs, SOCIETY has arrested and jailed some CS parents for denying medical care for their children and have sent up the river for abuse or even manslaughter. Anthrophosphy has a similar problem, as do Scientologists and some old order Anabaptist groups--all believe in a form of faith healing and shun a lot of forms of modern medicine. JW's also deny blood transfusions, and have been arrested and jailed for denying transfusions to children.

As for me? I limit how frequently I see a doctor, not because I believe that the power of prayer will heal me (although, I might seek God for guideance on dealing with a serious illness) but it's because I believe in simplicity and only using a doctor and medicine when there is no alternative.

Earlier this week I actually did go to the doctor for the first time in YEARS. I somehow got Pink Eye. LOL, now, I think God would probably think me an idiot if I prayed for him to heal my eye. No, it was best to see a doc and get the medicine to clear it up so I didn't harm anyone else. God has better things to do than heal my goopy, contagious eyeball.

Well said...thats more or less what I was saying before...it does just sicken me when people tend to think of God like a child would a magic gennie LOL..wish granted...wish ok granted!!! <--so not like that.....

thats why I replied with





HA HA I recall Irish or someone posting this very same joke one time, for there was (believe it or not) another thread just like this one made..and others like it...you tend to get used to the same kind of thread being made over and over lol

So just for you..I looked up the joke

There was an old man sitting on his porch watching the rain fall. Pretty soon the water was coming over the porch and into the house.

The old man was still sitting there when a rescue boat came and the people on board said, "You can't stay here you have to come with us."

The old man replied, "No, God will save me." ...So the boat left. A little while later the water was up to the second floor, and another rescue boat came, and again told the old man he had to come with them.

The old man again replied, "God will save me." ....So the boat left him again.

An hour later the water was up to the roof and a third rescue boat approached the old man, and tried to get him to come with them.

Again the old man refused to leave stating that, "God will grant a miracle & save him." So the boat left him again.

Soon after, the man drowns and goes to heaven, and when he sees God he asks him, "Why didn't you save me? I thought you would grand me a miracle and you have let me down."

God replied, "You idiot, I don't know what you're complaining about. I sent three boats after you!!"

I can see that you are not here to discuss, instead to persuade, so I'll leave you with this... I never said my mother was healed, she isn't, I said she has been without medical treatment for a disease that is known to REQUIRE medical treatment. If you have not found a source for healing through prayer, perhaps you should try to look for one. It is not difficult to find these things online, in the paper, at the hospital, in the nursing home... any of these resources should be more than sufficient to provide true stories of prayer and healing. I myself have witnessed children especially being healed after people prayed for God's mercy and healing. I do not think you will take my word for it, but that is inconsequential except to prove that you do not want to believe that prayer works. It has little to do with proof, and everything to do with acceptance. Check out the book 90 minutes in Heaven if you ever get the notion.

Show me a single amputee that's had a limb regrown through the power of prayer.

* Waits patiently. Forever. *

None? How strange. Why do you think that is?

Truth is, that in every single scientific study of the power of prayer, the results have been absolutely zero.

Prayer has also been hurtfull at times like with those rallies and some kind of mass healer guy saying that you are healed and everyone in the audiance thinks that they too are being cured by the miraculus hand of godand after some of them see that there cancer is receding coincidentialy they throw up there hands a say i am healed stop taking there medication and a month later the cancer come back twice as bad.

There are instances in the bible where a character had asked for a specific healing from God and God then gave him a natural cure without any supernatural miracle (i will try and find out who it was specifically as I forgot but it is in there). So....apparently even God in the bible didnt heal upon the request of His people but told them to seek a natural cure as a natural cure is all that was needed. If you can be healed by medicine then why would God need to heal you in the first place? I dont think Hes a magic genie that answers our becking call. It wasnt even His purpose to come back and heal everyone in the world in the first place. The miracles were to establish and confirm the now written canon and confirm that the kingdom of God had come. I dont remember anywhere where it says that everyone that seeks healing will receive it as that wasnt Gods purpose in the first place. Jesus set the example for us to live by and that is through suffering. It sounds outlandish but suffering is actually the way the faith is produced, its what brings forth the true fruit in the christians spiritual life. Paul even said that it wasnt the great revelations of Jesus that strengthened his faith but it was his weaknesses and sufferings...His faults. Suffering is the example that Jesus gave to humanity and through suffering the most glory is given to God and that just may mean not having your prayers answered in your timing, not getting that healing you have been believing for all your life, losing that loved one to cancer or aids....Its what produces the most faith, not revelation, not miracles, not tongues, not visions, not dreams, not archeological discoveries, not philosophical geniuses, not scholars with Ph d's.......

Edit: And I forgot to add that I am not discrediting miracles and I most definitely believe they still occur around us all the time. I believe that there are unexplainable miracles and I believe that there are also psychosomatic issues where people believe they are healed, but in reality it was all in their mind. I do remember going to a friends church one wed night, it was pentecostal church (no i am not a pentecostal), and I remember this black man in his 60s that was on an oxygen tank and was a member of that church for a long time. He had to live on that oxygen tank all the time. He was prayed for by one of the missionaries that had came to preach on that wednesday and was healed on the spot. He had no need for the oxygen tank anymore. I thought to myself that this was probably a psychosomatic issue and forgot to ask my friend later that week if he was back on the oxygen. I didnt actually ask until about 4-5 days ago (about 2 months after it happened) and to this very day he is still off of that oxygen and doesnt even need it.

If I think that property taxes in my area are too high, I right a letter to a legislator, not my grandmother. Does that mean I have more faith in the government than my own family?

Someone can be religious and have full faith in whatever "God" they believe in without being silly enough to believe that if they get down on their knees and ask for magical healing, that some invisible flying white man in a toga will come down through the clouds and cure them of cancer. You can't judge the measure of someone else's faith based on your assumptions of what faith means to that person.

Also, I'm allergic to penicillin so I might actually go with the prayer on that one.

It wouldn't surprise me if the religious have more faith in science.
Scientists, most of them anyway have always 'tried to play god' in the past so i guess it kind of makes sense eh?



lol!

If that's the case, then everyone would be chopping off their limbs to show off the power of prayer..in fact if it were that obvious and ..it was all like magic..and we had NOTHING to do for ourselves

This world would be filled with Harry Potters


Guess what?? it's not...poor mankind has to face reality...prayer is not meant to be 100% absolute instant magic....NO...to be realistic..you must see things half way..or you will be a useless sod for the rest of your life!!

comments like these show me......well, make me glad I am not living your life

The word understanding means what to you??

He gave an opinion...just because it's not FOR prayer..don't mean he must live a sh*tty life

dude..learn to be tactful...we know you hate the thoughts of atheism..but gee do you have to show it so bloody often??

oh I'm sure he is perfectly happy in his life, I'm just saying I wouldn't be

I don't hate atheism, in fact I welcome it as a future replacement for mass religion.
What I don't like is naive understanding of religious concepts

How would you know?? you know sweet FA about his life, so why this judgment??


NO?? that's queer, cuz you have posted a threads that looks as though you are complaining as to WHY atheists post here....and you claim this board to be a DIE HARD ATHEIST board!!....dude, if you had any clue about what you are saying...you wouldn't care to put it down...nor would you take one comment given by the abover member, that looks as though he thinks prayer don't work...and tell him you wouldn't want his life

You failed to see how INSULTING you were.(towards tiggs) ..actually you have failed to see how some of your posts are insulting to atheists in general

I'm not complaining that this is an atheist board, I'm just stating it, as an observation. You can't come to an atheist.com and complain that it's an atheist site, so I don't.

I do have a lot of complaints on behavior of atheists here, but even after that long thread we had, you still never really understood what I was complaining about.

To sum it up yea?? Atheists...as to why don't they just follow us believers...why do they have to question us..blah everything should go our way or else!!

see? you did it again. You have proven that you don't get my objections

Whatever....I do know you only look at things ONE SIDES...to suit yourself

So do you, you always snap when someone mentions pedophilia or anything else immoral. You also have always only one way of seeing things. As most of us do.

seaking about criminals is not meant to be part of this is it??

Last time I checked its about beliefs of the religious nature V's lack of beliefs <----------------NOT who is a sex offender and who isnt

Seriously North think before you post...for you are now sounding so silly <--watered that down to suit forum standards

When it comes to religious views and skeptics views...I look at both sides......................you don't

If I sound silly, it is not because I didn't think before I posted, because what i said here I would say again

I think it's because you not only do not think before you post...but you get sections of the board and what falls into categories MIXED UP...IE...I say I look at both sides of the fence when it comes to religion and lack of.....you come back and say....



I read it and think...does he even realize that this board is about religious and non religious ideas??? if so why drag in crime??....if he wants to dispute crime...shot in the dark but can't he click on the - true crime section?? yea??

like I said..you don't think before you post!!

You said you look at things from both sides, I didn't see the part "when it comes to...." so I thought you ALWAYS look things from both sides, and not just religion and atheism, so I brought up an example where you don't look things from two sides

If god is everywhere and in all things (isn't that the general idea? An omnipresent god?) then he is also in Nyquil and scalpels and prescription drugs for ED.

good point