A military watchdog organization filed a lawsuit in federal court Tuesday against the Pentagon, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, and a US Army major, on behalf of an Army soldier stationed in Iraq. The suit charges the Pentagon with widespread constitutional violations by allegedly trying to force the soldier to embrace evangelical Christianity and then retaliating against him when he refused.

The complaint, filed in US District Court in Kansas City, by the nonprofit Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), on behalf of Jeremy Hall, an Army specialist currently on active duty in Speicher, Iraq, alleges that Hall's First Amendment rights were violated beginning last Thanksgiving when, because of his atheist beliefs, he declined to participate in a Christian prayer ceremony commemorating the holiday.

"Immediately after plaintiff made it known he would decline to join hands and pray, he was confronted, in the presence of other military personnel, by the senior ranking ... staff sergeant who asked plaintiff why he did not want to pray, whereupon plaintiff explained because he is an atheist," says the lawsuit, a copy of which was provided to Truthout. "The staff sergeant asked plaintiff what an atheist is and plaintiff responded it meant that he (plaintiff) did not believe in God. This response caused the staff sergeant to tell plaintiff that he would have to sit elsewhere for the Thanksgiving dinner. Nonetheless, plaintiff sat at the table in silence and finished his meal."

Moreover, the complaint alleges that on August 7, when Hall received permission by an Army chaplain to organize a meeting of other soldiers who shared his atheist beliefs, his supervisor, Army Major Paul Welborne, broke up the gathering and threatened to retaliate against the soldier by charging him with violating the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The complaint also alleges that Welborne vowed to block Hall's reenlistment in the Army if the atheist group continued to meet - a violation of Hall's First Amendment rights under the Constitution. Welborne is named as a defendant in the lawsuit.

More of the article here: Link

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Pretty sad that in a modern country with freedoms of religious views this is happening.

America is the Middle East of the west.


I mean... What seperation of church and state?

And this kid has a right to sue. And he should and he should follow it through to the end.

Personally, I have nothing but distain for the military--but that's not what this is about.

As a card carrying Christian, I'm LIVID that the US military would violate this kids rights like this. It's inexcusible, illegal, and gross. IF it happened this way--this article is only addressing one side of the story.

HOWEVER, I would want to know more before I made a made a real judgement call--this is why we have courts. But on the surface, it looks like this kids rights were violated in the worst way.

Wth is wrong with them?

They are in FREAKIN IRAQ, one of their soldiers spirituality should not even be an issue, they should be more worried about dieing...whatever he thinks its his buiness, the military has no right chaning him any further then they all ready have.

Interesting to me that Hall got permission from the Army chaplin who okayed the atheist group to have a meeting, which Hall's superior,Major Wellborne broke up. A. Either the chaplin was an old soldier,and used to guys like Hall hence giving permission for the meeting.
Or B.The chaplin told Hall's commanding officer,or Major Wellborne caught wind of it another way.
lots of guys,especially battleharden men feel the same way as Hall. My late father came back to the Church when he was very ill.
I recall him telling his aunt a nun,that he believed in God,but not what the Church said about suffering and other things.
He mentioned seeing an italian woman holding her dead child in her arms screaming,and the child's head was half blown away.
This was during WW2 and it was the sort of thing that turned him off organized religion.

i don't recall my dad saying anything about people being forced into anychristian activities during the war.you had Catholic and Protestant chaplins,and I assume even Jewish rabbis who also served. Guys were too busy trying to stay alive.
My dad fought at Monte Cassino.He was a flight crew chief and airplane mechanic. He helped drop bombs on the famous abbey.
My dad said that even though it was an abbey ,he didn't have any qualms about bombing the place, it was a military target
as far as he and everyone else was concerned.

It seems to me more and more of these evangicals are trying to force their religious views on everyone.People have a right to believe what they want.
Hopefully more will come out on this,as Mis Mels Wells says,we are only getting one half of the picture.

I as a former Christian have been treated this way often.....

I was very hesitant to voice my beliefs (or in this case non-beliefs) when I took over the computer lab here (I currently work in a inner-city Ministry).....but both Pastors (IMHO) are some of the very few TRUE Christians I have met as both a believer and a NB.

religious beliefs in the army ( and bush called the war a crusade) , the loss of Habeas Corpus , illegal wiretapping , an illegal war , no accountability on the hill , vast corruption , corporations doing as they please , ......... just to name a few.

how long before people face the fact fascism of sorts is alive and well in the United States ?

Being a military wife, and have lived on a military base for nine years, I have seen some things make a complete turn around. When my children were in the scouts, which met on the base, every Christmas there would be a tree lighting ceremony, that the whole base would be invited to, and the scouts were there, and also the base commander who make a quick speech wishing everyone happy holidays. Then everyone would sing holiday carols and count down to the lighting of the big tree, which was situated on the grounds of familiy services. The whole street would be sanctioned off, and Santa on the base fire department vehicles would come in with sirens blaring, throwing candy for everyone. This would happen every year and it was a lot of fun.
Until the last year we were there, then the tree lighting ceremony was moved to the grounds of the Catholic church on the base. Nobody was allowed to sing the carols, that was reserved for the church choir. There were too many speeches, and I don't think there was a Santa that year. The kicker was the Colonel in charged of the scouts of the base, who gave a way too long speech. He mentioned something about faith, and urging everyone there to have it, if they didn't. I was so enraged. The two girl scout leaders of my daughter's troop had moved away previously that year, and when I was talking to one of them on the phone, I told her what was changed and what was said. She was shocked and annoyed, that they did that.
When my husband was promoted to Senior Airmen and we were at the ceremony, it was fun, with a lot of laughter, while flight chiefs, and spouses came up to help 'pin' on the strips. When my husband made staff. it was more formal, and there was a prayer at the beginning, where everyone was asked to bow their head. I didn't and I glared at the front. No one did anything, I think they knew they didn't have a right to do or say anything. I agree, it has changed, where our religious rights are being taken away. Though do not blame the military on that. They seem to laugh at the rights of everyone and everything. I still do consider them an equal opptunity annoyer. One thing I have noticed on that base, is when something that is wrong happens, the base residents do step up and make a stand, and then things change for the better.
If I remember correctly, this is the land of rights and equal freedom, and now that this incident has made the press, I'm sure a lot of people will stand up and make it known, some organizations have crossed the line. Do we really want to have another Bloody Mary on our hands???

No one should be forced into Accepting the Christian faith or be forced to abandon their faith whatever it is! And if people choose not to believe in anything that is their right and all should be respected! Otherwise we are just as bad as all those extremists we are fighting! How can we be fighting against forced religion and at the same time force others to practice a certain religion? This makes no sense at all! And as a Christian myself, i,m outraged by such hypocritical B.S.!

well watchful... here's my take.

I am a dues paid lifelong Girl Scout. Now, I was raised in an Eastern Philosophy household, and even though my mother was NOT a Christian (not by any stretch of the imagination), she was still a Scout leader. That being said, she was fully aware that Girl Scouts (and Boy Scouts) is a quasi Christian organization. So if the handbook called for prayer, she lead prayer to the Christian God regardless of what her own beliefs were (which are more Hindu than anything). Make no mistake, Scouts ARE a Christian organization. If you involve your daughers or sons in scouts, expect that they will need to be tolerant of the fact that the handbooks call for prayer to, more or less, an Abrahamic God. It's not a central theme, but the foundation is there. My mother always taught my sister and I... "use that time of prayer to do what you feel is right regardless of what the Handbook says". That's a fair enough work-around in my opinion (and yes, today, I am a Christian, but back then I was not).

However, the military represents the USA (Scouts do not), and that means all creeds, faiths or lack thereof. The military has no Constitutional leg to stand on when it comes to demanding their soldiers bow to a Christian God. Now if they want to ask for "prayer" or a "moment of silence" for reflection, I have no problem with that. But when they start to discriminate against their soldiers, I DO have an issue.

I might be a Christian, but I have no tolerance for intolerance in governmental institutions.

Frankly, like I said before, I have very little tolerance for the military in general and in fact, combat goes against my faith, but make no mistake, if by some weird fluke I was forced to serve, I could do so in a non-combative capacity. I believe in my country and my Constitution, but the military wars (pun intended) with my sense of non-violence.

They cant have non-religious soldiers in the US army, since Faith is a huge part of American military strategy.

That's disturbing if true. I think they just play faithful-those in power.

They want us to be faithful,taxpaying,patriotic christians.I think this benefits those in power

Suppoesedly they (in the White-House) call or refer to Christians (citizens) as those "loonies and nuts."

I have the sources if interested.

It was a big news story.

I can personally guarantee you that Robert Gates and the top generals of our military ARE NOT Christians whether they claim to be or not.

I believe you.

You are right, it is there. I was aware of that. In fact, I do not have my children in it now, after we moved. One, my children were not heavily into it, to begin with, and that I was getting nervous, along the way, of how far they would push religion onto us. Now, when they invite your children to sign up, I did not think that there would be a 'you must be Christian' clause on it. In fact, when it came to earning patches, there was even a seperate batch of religion patches one can earn. There was tolerance, with a lot in the organization, that my children were part of. I guess they had to, being on a base, that had every culture and belief all wrapped up in one area.
The thing is, for a long time, there was a secular practice with the scouts and the holidays, and then it changed. I was encouraged by my son's scout leader to have him join the resident troop in the area where we were going to move to. I didn't though, and felt it was better that way. Anyways, my son is too busy with his music and baseball, which my family is heavily involved in. My daughter was taken out by me, because not only did she not care, but I was getting disgusted at the currant leaders and the lack of organization.
But you are right, it is a Christian organization and I fully except that. It was what the base was doing, which had me peeved.


I respect that, and I hope that this does not go on. I do hope that those who have the lack of intolerance in the military, do get punished.

How so? I am a military wife, and this does not make sense. And I find it a bit ironic, that for a military fighting for a country that is supppose to be a symbol of freedom, meaning freedom in everything, that you think that those who are fighting for that, are not free to believe in what they wish.

They were only taking their lead from the top





When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency [....], one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal [....] had the following exchange with then-Vice-President Bush:

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?
Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?
Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.



fullywired

What I mean is the way the Iraq war has been handled, it seems alot of things were based on faith. Honestly people of any race, creed or sexual preferance should have the right to murder for their country.

The problem there Fully; is that atheism has always been veiwed as Soviet, thus a form of communism. Not many people care enough to understand what communism is about and why religion is restricted.

I would have to research on why religion was restricted, I'm sure I knew why, but forgot. Not to say you are wrong, I do not think that you are, in my experience I have seen and heard more just fear atheism without bringing the subject of communism into it. I think that is an interesting thought and true too, Chokmah, I wish it was the case and easily educate the masses about it. I just wish a lot of those who do fear atheism, do explain why.

Watchfull: This could be of interest to you.


Religion in Scouting - Wikipedia

I went to the Scouts when kid, and they welcomed all religions....even if you werent following a religion. We were all scouts.

My father was an atheist, he fought in WWII, he was you might say, the atheist in the fox hole. I ask him if he ever pray to god when he was fighting he said no he was to busy fighting for his life for such silliness. He was not a communist and if you called him one he would have punched your lights out. Bush is as far as I am concerned is an idiot.
As a Pagan, nothing Christians do surprises me. Pagans have been having problems in the military, too. It took a long time to get the Wiccan pentagram on the head stones of Wiccan solders. I think the atheist solder was treated horrible and has every right to sue. One other thing, since when is Thanksgiving a Christian holiday?

I'm not saying atheists are communists. I was replying to Fully's post about Bush snr. Where he stated atheists are not american citizens. This was still around the time that Russia was communist (And still America's enemy), atheism was seen by americans at the time as a communist agenda to take away their god. All propaganda of course to show how 'evil' communism is.

Doesn't deter the religious overtone of America and what the American-politicians have.

Sounds like typical christian hypocrisy to me.
Like the Taliban - only whiter!

This actually holds true for almost every "Christian" in the USA.
Most of them will claim to be christian and will be ready to punch you in the face if you tell them they aren't. LOL! Hypocrite jokes most of them are. YEEE-HAW! I'M A KEEE-RISTIAN AND I'LL DRAG YOU BEHIND MY PICK-UP TRUCK IF'N YOU TALK BAD ABOUT MY GOD! TYEEEE HHAAAAWWWW!!!!

Very informational link. Thanks.

Pretty soon there will be seperate atheist drinking fountains...

That. I'm.... wha...
Ahem.
Evey time I think I have seen the nadir of that mans intelligence, he surprises me. I have never, and I mean never, seen anything so .... offensive, or at least, if I was American, I would... I can't even express myself! If Jonny "the rat" Howard ever uttered words that called 14% (that's a very small number, though isn't it?) of the population "non-citizens", his head would be on a stick, quick-smart.
I've just been scouting 'round quickly to see if there was any retraction by Dubya or if not a growing sense of outrage, but there seems to be nothing....
Only in America....

not more christians. . . ruining the world, trying to gain power, makes me SICK!

(soon there will be atheist drinking fountains)
LOL i love that, but it could happe. "tries to keep a straight face"

not more christians. . . ruining the world, trying to gain power, makes me SICK!

(soon there will be atheist drinking fountains)
LOL i love that, but it could happe. "tries to keep a straight face"

Christians hating Athiests, Athiests hating Christians, Black hates white ,White hates blacks, Straight hates gay, Gay hates straight. This hates that , that hates this! There all lables used as an excuse to hate and disrespect and hurt and commit violence! And we are all responsible and guilty weather in a lesser or greater degree, not one of us has clean hands or a pure enough heart to be concidered innocent of helping the powers of hate to continue!

Not sure, but aren't American soldiers meant to take pledges to the US constitution which frequently states "under God"?

If his beliefs as an Atheist were so strong he wouldn't have joined the military in the first place.

His superior officer should have got in his face like he did. The army isn't the place to express your individuality. Hold hands and conform like a good little automaton.

He's probably just one of those 'It's hip to be Atheist Atheists' anyways.

It'll never end. It's human nature to fight. Hell, even in unified countries we still find reasons to fight amongst ourselves. University vs university, state vs state, town vs town, sport vs sport, team vs team, I like the colour blue you like the colour green and so on.

Yea and think of those poor men that were drafted into the army withg no choice...so they had the army forced on to them..and religion....

Yup free country is is or was uhuh??

It was his father, as president campaigning for a second term, who said that. His father lost that election. Go figure.



I do believe though, the constitution explains a government institution should not spotlight a particular religion. And even then, how is an all voluntary force suppose to get new recruits? I'm not really sure if you are being sarcastic on this one. *Shrugs*