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Raptor
QUOTE(Nephilim_Slayer @ Sep 23 2007, 06:12 AM) *
Booo, I've seen a third grader come up with more hardcore evolutionary "facts" than this, I give you 2/10 on this one.


Funny you say that, because that post wasn't intended to present any "evolutionary facts", it was a refutation of the sources you were using.

Now maybe if you focus on his post which actually does bring forth evidence (#48), instead of outright ignoring it... rolleyes.gif
seanph
Camlax, your post was excellent! Well done original.gif . Neph, the sources you supplied were written by third-graders. You have shown nothing but anti-intellectualism. There is no science whatsoever contained in your sources. This YEC at their finest.

The evidence for evolution? If the fossil record isn't enough ... Just look at the human body. Gentics ... Both apes and humans are 96% the same. You are a walking Periodic Table as well--oxygen, hydrogen, zinc, magnesium, calcium, copper etc.--everything that makes up a star. And water. By weight we are some 72% water! Our blood? Nearly 85% water! The brain? 95% water! Also, why can you be born covered fully in hair (hypertrichosis) and have a tail (vestigial tail)? Why wisdom teeth, which are vestigial third molars? How can you live without an appendix and other once essential organs? Evolution!

2. Isn't evolution just a theory that remains unproven?

In science, a theory is a rigorously tested statement of general principles that explains observable and recorded aspects of the world. A scientific theory therefore describes a higher level of understanding that ties "facts" together. A scientific theory stands until proven wrong -- it is never proven correct. The Darwinian theory of evolution has withstood the test of time and thousands of scientific experiments; nothing has disproved it since Darwin first proposed it more than 150 years ago. Indeed, many scientific advances, in a range of scientific disciplines including physics, geology, chemistry, and molecular biology, have supported, refined, and expanded evolutionary theory far beyond anything Darwin could have imagined.


SOURCE
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat01.html#Q02

SOURCES: EVOLUTION

Human Origins (Smithsonian Institute)
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/faq/faqlist.htm

Top Ten Vestigial organs--Starting With #8 (Live Science)
http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/top...l_organs-8.html

The Leakey Foundation
http://www.leakeyfoundation.org/

Creation & Intelligent Design Watch
http://www.csicop.org/intelligentdesignwatch/

Evolution 101: The Big Issues (Berkeley University)
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo1...Bigissues.shtml

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evohome.html

PBS: Frequently Asked Questions About Evolution
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/

Evolution Resources (Professor Kenneth R. Miller, Brown University)
http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/index.html

In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion.--Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address

AND:

Think of how many religions attempt to validate themselves with prophecy. Think of how many people rely on these prophecies, however vague, however unfulfilled, to support or prop up their beliefs. Yet has there ever been a religion with the prophetic accuracy and reliability of science?--Carl Sagan (1934 - 1996)

AND:

Carl often spoke of the importance of realizing that all human beings are one - born of the stars; one species, one family, and from the cosmic perspective ... --Celebrating Sagan

And that last quote really sums it up for me.

Sean
camlax
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Sep 22 2007, 10:11 PM) *
To camlax or cimber, this isnt intended to be a religious debate with evolution and creationism but a question about evolution. Do you believe that the deadly gamma ray bursts that appear to have occured around at least a thousand times within a 4 billion year period could solve some of the problems in fossil record?. Extinctions sometimes appeared in one of the hemispheres and not the other. Since gamma ray bursts seem to last about ten seconds to an hour, one burst would impact only one hemisphere. Do you think this could account for some of these global extinctions that paleontologists have observed in the fossil record?. Do you believe this could cause a challenge to the evolutionary theory?


This brings up some very good points. First, lets define what we mean by gamma ray burst. Gamma Ray Bursts (GRB), were actually first discovered by US military spy satellites looking for Soviet nuclear tests. What we have found is that special types of supernovae emit the burst, and for a brief amount of time they are largest source of gamma photons in our sky (a million trillion times greater than the sun). GRBs typically last a few milliseconds with longer ones lasting approximately 103 seconds (.2 of an hour).

GRBs are divided into two class, short bursts which are less than 2 seconds in length. These are much higher energy photons though and would likely be the cause of any kind major change here on planet earth. Long burst (longer than 2 seconds) are comprised of mostly much lower energy photons.

Most GRBs originate from outside of our own galaxy, ones from within the Milky way are rare events (This is probably because what creates them is the combining of super massive objects at relativistic speeds, which means old galaxies are the majority of the source and that is supported through observation). So the Earth is hit by these far away GRBs everyday and we seem to have no problem coping with them. The problem could be with a burst that originates very close to us on a cosmic scale. Say a few hundred light years. Potentially, the extreme amounts of gamma photons hitting the earth could start a reaction that could destroy much of the ozone layer. The after effects (exposure to ionizing radiation from our own sun) is what would cause the massive extinctions.

Many astrophysicists think that Earth must have been hit by a close GRB in its 4 billion year history. Specifically, they used Ozone models and looked for mass extinctions to find theoretical times we could have been hit by a massive GRB. There are a few problems with this though. If Collapsar view is correct and we get GRBs from the death of super massive star then we could potentially have near earth events occurring in our 4 billion year history. The reason we see them so much more often in older galaxies is because they contain many more black holes and neutron stars, and when two bodies such as this combine (neutron + neutron, neutron + black hole, black hole + black hole) we get GRBs. Even if the collapsar view is correct (which there is a very good chance it partly is) there is no guarantee that the close by event contained enough energy to completely destroy or destroy enough of the ozone to cause the mass extinction.


I feel the real problem here lies in the need to simplify mass extinctions. People, in our quest for understanding often over simplify things. Modern physics, astronomy and science should have taught us that things are not simple. (Opinion incoming! wink2.gif ) I don't think that any one thing is the cause of a mass extinction, I think mass extinctions are probably caused by numerous things (especially since we have decent evidence that many of these proposed hypothesis were all occurring around some of the extinction events). I think it would be more a combination of natural climate shift, hit with a meteorite (which would accelerate dramatic climate changes), possibly nearby GRBs, etc. You start combining two or three of these possible culprits then you have some very real, very complex, real world scenarios.


I don't feel GRBs are needed to explain climate change in one hemisphere. As we are seeing right now (whether the cause is man made or not) and have seen with past records like the Vostok core, climate shifts often start out independently of each other per hemisphere, or one drastically leads or lags the other. This in itself, should be sufficient to show that environments in each hemisphere can be subject to large extinction events independent of the next.

I also don't feel (regardless GRBs are the sole or partial cause of extinction events) that this poses a problem to evolution, after all extinction is an integral part of evolution. I do feel it is certainly possible for GRBs to play a role in extinctions or maybe even an initiator of extinction events if we could find out for sure that they happen close to earth. As of right now though, we have no hard evidence to indicate that they occur very close to earth, so baring the possibility of time travel we may never know the exact cause (provided there is an exact cause) of some of these mass extinctions.

One last side note, If Collapsar models are do produce GRBs, you would think we also see other tell tale signs of a supernova collapse so close to home, which were are currently looking for and could confirm the role GRBs play on our planet.

Hope that helps, let me know if I need to clarify anything for you.
hairston630
That was a well written post camlax. Thank you for taking the time to post that info.


Hairston

Edit: And thanks to cimber as well for the attempt, being it that your biologist and not a physicist.
hairston630
QUOTE(seanph @ Sep 23 2007, 01:08 PM) *
Camlax, your post was excellent! Well done original.gif . Neph, the sources you supplied were written by third-graders. You have shown nothing but anti-intellectualism. There is no science whatsoever contained in your sources. This YEC at their finest.

The evidence for evolution? If the fossil record isn't enough ... Just look at the human body. Gentics ... Both apes and humans are 96% the same. You are a walking Periodic Table as well--oxygen, hydrogen, zinc, magnesium, calcium, copper etc.--everything that makes up a star. And water. By weight we are some 72% water! Our blood? Nearly 85% water! The brain? 95% water! Also, why can you be born covered fully in hair (hypertrichosis) and have a tail (vestigial tail)? Why wisdom teeth, which are vestigial third molars? How can you live without an appendix and other once essential organs? Evolution!


According to Morris Goodmans conclusion chimps and humans are around 99.4% in sequence identity. I believe its around 95% when indels (insertions/deletions) were considered along with substitutions. Another study had came up with 86.7% similarity when comparing segments of both human and chimp dna. These chimps have physiological, anatomical, behavioral, and cultural differences that seperate genera of humans and monkeys.

References

Fazale Rana, Ph.D. "Do Humans and Chimps Belong In The Same Genus?"

Derek E. Wildman et al., “Implications of Natural Selection in Shaping 99.4% Nonsynonymous DNA Identity between Humans and Chimpanzees: Enlarging Genus Homo,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 100 (2003): 7181-88.

Roy J. Brutten, “Divergence between Samples of Chimpanzee and Human DNA Sequences is 5%, Counting Indels,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 99 (2002): 13633-35.

Tatsuya Anzai et al., “Comparative Sequencing of Human and Chimpanzee MHC Class I Regions Unveils Insertions/Deletions As the Major Path to Genomic Divergence,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 100 (2003): 7708-13.


Edit: Plus from what else I was reading it appears that work on the chimpanzee genomes hasnt began in any real sense as of yet so I think its still, to some extent, a presupposition.
Son of _Adam
QUOTE(Raptor X7 @ Sep 23 2007, 11:30 AM) *
Funny you say that, because that post wasn't intended to present any "evolutionary facts", it was a refutation of the sources you were using.

Now maybe if you focus on his post which actually does bring forth evidence (#48), instead of outright ignoring it... rolleyes.gif



Raptor you've been on this board a while now to know that I have posted 4,000,000 posts about "evolution vs. creationism" and I don't really feel like getting it into it again. If you think I lost thats fine, or the other names ive been called by you people means nothing to me sorry. I refuse to do this again, you should know better that these threads end up with no winner and name calling and insulting of character on BOTH sides. This is completely beating a dead horse. When I first got to this board I was debating with you God-less folk for a while now about evolution and its loopholes. I saw where the conversation went to everytime and often ended up in name calling, or closed threads. I've done it so much that its losing its appeal to me. If you believe that we came from goo thats fine but there are others that believe we were elegantly created in the image of the God of the universe, to each their own. I do believe like spirituality, evolution does need faith to believe in since it is still remains a theory.
JMPD1
QUOTE(Nephilim_Slayer @ Sep 23 2007, 08:48 PM) *
Raptor you've been on this board a while now to know that I have posted 4,000,000 posts about "evolution vs. creationism" and I don't really feel like getting it into it again. If you think I lost thats fine, or the other names ive been called by you people means nothing to me sorry. I refuse to do this again, you should know better that these threads end up with no winner and name calling and insulting of character on BOTH sides.



funny that, your post count is only 400+....... Is it an exaggeration? or a prevarication?

There have been many members here, much, much longer than yourself who have had no problem repeating their arguements.

You however, are merely blowing smoke. You cannot refute anything, but merely wish to present yourself as some world weary warrior for god.

Pleas e grow up, or desist in being the southernmost end of a northbound equine.


Have a nice day
camlax
QUOTE(Nephilim_Slayer @ Sep 23 2007, 08:48 PM) *
Raptor you've been on this board a while now to know that I have posted 4,000,000 posts about "evolution vs. creationism" and I don't really feel like getting it into it again. If you think I lost thats fine, or the other names ive been called by you people means nothing to me sorry. I refuse to do this again, you should know better that these threads end up with no winner and name calling and insulting of character on BOTH sides.


GUY! I looked up every one of your posts pertaining to evolution (Unless you have changed screen names). You have failed miserably at any attempt to debate evolution. You have failed to cite any kind of credible academic source. You have not even touched any of the scientific posts that deal with evolution other than to say "I am right, and I have done this so many times". Get a back bone, why not respond to post 48? And why not get some academic sources? Why not differentiate yourself from the others who enjoy basking in their own ignorance?
hairston630
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ Sep 24 2007, 12:53 AM) *
funny that, your post count is only 400+....... Is it an exaggeration? or a prevarication?

There have been many members here, much, much longer than yourself who have had no problem repeating their arguements.

You however, are merely blowing smoke. You cannot refute anything, but merely wish to present yourself as some world weary warrior for god.

Pleas e grow up, or desist in being the southernmost end of a northbound equine.
Have a nice day


Dang Joey....That was kinda harsh
JMPD1
Just getting tired of hearing his nonsense.

Either put up a valid arguement, or be quiet.

Continuing to say that it isn't worth his time or energy to debate is assinine childish, and really fecking annoying.
hairston630
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ Sep 24 2007, 01:11 AM) *
Just getting tired of hearing his nonsense.

Either put up a valid arguement, or be quiet.

Continuing to say that it isn't worth his time or energy to debate is assinine childish, and really fecking annoying.


Yeah....I can see where you coming from being it that this is a debate forum laugh.gif
hairston630
Sorry for the double posting but a pose another question to cimber or camlax, well anyone that is knowledgeable in science.

It has been stated that biological evolution should not repeat itself but it appears that there was a study on salamanders that continues to show proof that evolution DOES repeat itself. Historical contingency seems to govern biological evolution and evolution should not be repeatable. If investigation finds chance being involved in the biological systems, then evolution gains support. BUT if evolution seems to generate a recurring "repeatable" result, then the evolutionary paradigm receives a pretty huge challenge.

By relying upon DNA sequence information rather than the physical characteristics biologists have discovered repeatable evolution for the Anolis lizards, cichlid and stickleback fish, river dolphins, mangabey monkeys, and island plants. And now there was a study done in UC berkeley studying tropical salamanders that seems to be in the "repeatable evolution" category.

"Four genera of lungless salamanders (members of the family Plethodontidae), suited for an underground lifestyle (fossorial), live in the lowland tropical region of southern Mexico and northern South America. These salamanders possess an elongated body and dramatically shortened limbs. One genus of lungless salamanders, Lineatriton, is comprised of a single species, Lineatriton lineolus. Based on external morphological features, biologists classified L. lineolus as a member of the genus Oedipina. However, detailed studies of internal anatomy later revealed fundamental differences, placing L. lineolus in a separate genus. Recent mitochondrial (mt) DNA analysis conducted by the UC Berkeley students supports this classification of L. lineolus.

In addition to supporting the reclassification of L. lineolus, the recent mt DNA analysis uncovered an unexpected result. L. lineolus is not a single species, but actually two separate species thought to have evolved independently to produce a unique combination of traits that serve as an extreme specialization for a fossorial lifestyle¾at least according to the evolutionary paradigm. Mitochondrial DNA analyses indicate that specimens from different regions of L. lineolus’ geographical range are more closely related to separate species belonging to the lungless salamander genus Pseudoeurycea than to each other. For L. lineolus, repeatable evolution seems to have occurred at two levels: 1) convergence with Oedipina; and 2) parallel evolution to produce two morphologically indistinguishable species."

Wouldnt this pose a challenge to the evolutionary theory?

References

Fazale R. Rana, Ph.D. :Salamander Study Challenges Evolutionary Theory

Stephen J. Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History (New York: W. W. Norton, 1989), 48-51.

Fazale R. Rana, “Repeatable Evolution or Repeated Creation?” Facts for Faith 4 (Q4 2000), 13-21.

Gabriela Parra-Olea and David B. Wake, “Extreme Morphological Homoplasy in Tropical Salamanders,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 98 (2001): 7888-91.
JMPD1
While not an expert in evolutionary theory, I think I can safely say that certain factors would be repeatable, if it was a change that would promote species longevity and survival. Some traits may even be seen in different species due to the positive influence the trait had.

One must remember that evolutionary traits are those passed on by survivors. Their offspring would carry the same traits that helped the parent creature to survive.
draconic chronicler
QUOTE(__Kratos__ @ Sep 21 2007, 08:25 PM) *
Oh yeah... Evolution is very stupid...

The dinosaur and mastodon became extinct not because of evolutionary charges, but because they were too big to be got into Noah's Ark.
-Founder and President of World's Christian Fundamentals Association in debate in Los Angeles
laugh.gif



Woah, guy. A lot of fundies would disagree with him because of all of the dragons in the Bible AFTER the flood, and because most fundies are too stupid to understand their own bible, so they do not understand that these dragons are NOT Dinosaurs, but Yahweh, the Canannite storm dragon and his dragon buddies called the Seraphim/fiery flying serpents.

Actually the Bible and Evolution are compatible. The big bang is described, the creation story begins with life in the sea, it describes the dinosaurs next, then the age of mammals, and finally man last. The point is that these are not "days" but are great epochs of time lasting millions of years. But later on, the dragon worhipper Yahwehists added a second, fairy tale creation in which man is created first, and animals and eve are created later just to keep him company.
camlax
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Sep 23 2007, 09:29 PM) *
Sorry for the double posting but a pose another question to cimber or camlax, well anyone that is knowledgeable in science.

It has been stated that biological evolution should not repeat itself but it appears that there was a study on salamanders that continues to show proof that evolution DOES repeat itself. Historical contingency seems to govern biological evolution and evolution should not be repeatable. If investigation finds chance being involved in the biological systems, then evolution gains support. BUT if evolution seems to generate a recurring "repeatable" result, then the evolutionary paradigm receives a pretty huge challenge.

By relying upon DNA sequence information rather than the physical characteristics biologists have discovered repeatable evolution for the Anolis lizards, cichlid and stickleback fish, river dolphins, mangabey monkeys, and island plants. And now there was a study done in UC berkeley studying tropical salamanders that seems to be in the "repeatable evolution" category.


"Four genera of lungless salamanders (members of the family Plethodontidae), suited for an underground lifestyle (fossorial), live in the lowland tropical region of southern Mexico and northern South America. These salamanders possess an elongated body and dramatically shortened limbs. One genus of lungless salamanders, Lineatriton, is comprised of a single species, Lineatriton lineolus. Based on external morphological features, biologists classified L. lineolus as a member of the genus Oedipina. However, detailed studies of internal anatomy later revealed fundamental differences, placing L. lineolus in a separate genus. Recent mitochondrial (mt) DNA analysis conducted by the UC Berkeley students supports this classification of L. lineolus.

In addition to supporting the reclassification of L. lineolus, the recent mt DNA analysis uncovered an unexpected result. L. lineolus is not a single species, but actually two separate species thought to have evolved independently to produce a unique combination of traits that serve as an extreme specialization for a fossorial lifestyle¾at least according to the evolutionary paradigm. Mitochondrial DNA analyses indicate that specimens from different regions of L. lineolus’ geographical range are more closely related to separate species belonging to the lungless salamander genus Pseudoeurycea than to each other. For L. lineolus, repeatable evolution seems to have occurred at two levels: 1) convergence with Oedipina; and 2) parallel evolution to produce two morphologically indistinguishable species."

Wouldnt this pose a challenge to the evolutionary theory?

References

Fazale R. Rana, Ph.D. :Salamander Study Challenges Evolutionary Theory

Stephen J. Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History (New York: W. W. Norton, 1989), 48-51.

Fazale R. Rana, “Repeatable Evolution or Repeated Creation?” Facts for Faith 4 (Q4 2000), 13-21.

Gabriela Parra-Olea and David B. Wake, “Extreme Morphological Homoplasy in Tropical Salamanders,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 98 (2001): 7888-91.



As far as I am aware no where in evolutionary theory does it state repetition is not allowed, on the contrary we actually see evidence that forms are repeated in evolution. Take for instance the eye, which has arisen separately. I believe the term is called convergent evolution, where two organisms who are not closely related evolve similar phenotypical traits.

I think the main problem here understanding definitions. Evolution, which we can simply call the change in inherited traits over time is random. When offspring are produced the traits they inherit from their parents is completely random. This is all that Mendelian genetics, with the Punnetts squares and percent chance of who gets what traits. Many people seem to be confused about this.

What is not random and chance though, is Natural selection (hence the word selection). While the offspring get random traits, their ability to survive is not random. The offspring with the best traits best suited for survival are the ones going to pass on their genes.

Now this makes sense that certain phenotypes would be beneficial, especially the more closely related the two organisms environments are. Think about it, if the environment determines which traits are best suited to be passed on, then there is no problem at all with convergent evolution occurring.

Convergent evolution actually occurs fairly often, at the molecular level as well as the organism level.



hairston630
I like discussing these things with you two. Great responses, though most are over my head but I still enjoy it. I have a few more questions to present but I will bring forth another question a little later, im pretty tired.
camlax
QUOTE(Nephilim_Slayer @ Sep 23 2007, 08:48 PM) *
When I first got to this board I was debating with you God-less folk for a while now about evolution and its loopholes. I saw where the conversation went to every time and often ended up in name calling, or closed threads. I've done it so much that its losing its appeal to me. If you believe that we came from goo thats fine but there are others that believe we were elegantly created in the image of the God of the universe, to each their own. I do believe like spirituality, evolution does need faith to believe in since it is still remains a theory.


I am going to reply here to your edited part. I am interested in debating and sharing ideas and information, you do not seem to be. You keep saying that there is name calling going on, I can only think that because people tell you "you have no idea what you are talking about" and this is why you may feel defensive about this. However, this does seem to be the case especially when you make comments like those bolded above. Science, unfortunately is not something you can learn on a Sunday afternoon reading a webpage like answersingenesis.org, whether we are talking about evolution or Newtonian mechanics. It takes time, effort, open mindedness and a curiosity to learn about how the world really works. If you wish to persist in your own delusion, so be it, to each his own. Not everyone is like you though, and some people value knowledge and the ability to think critically and logically.

All you have shown is a lack of interest in having any kind of real debate and hopes to spread your religion to others, to accomplish this you stop in threads and say asinine things like "Evolutionists are dumb like monkeys". Frankly, not only are you doing yourself and your credibility a disservice but that of your religious intent as well. I consider you the worst type of religious person, not one that spreads their faith, but one that would spread faith through lies and deceit. The dark ages (aptly named) were full of people like you, thankfully we live in a world where there are enough of us that value knowledge and learning enough to tell when someone simply wants to pull the wool down so they can force their beliefs onto others.


I would ask you or any other YEC, anti-evolutionist or literal creationist to please post some insightful academic debate material and for a change, add too and challenge the conversation at hand. While, I know better than to hope for this, I ask nonetheless. Maybe on your next post, instead of slandering/denying/dodging/lying you could actually post something well thought out?
camlax
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ Sep 23 2007, 09:11 PM) *
Just getting tired of hearing his nonsense.

Either put up a valid arguement, or be quiet.

Continuing to say that it isn't worth his time or energy to debate is asinine childish, and really fecking annoying.



I know your torment. Waiting for a valid argument from some is like sitting here waiting for our sun to burn out....
Mekorig
I still dont understand why people pay attention to fanatics like Nephilim_Slayer and other of his ill, you only knows to throw @bombs threads@ and later hide his hands, or began to call names....its getting boooooring.
Guardsman Bass
QUOTE(Nephilim_Slayer @ Sep 23 2007, 06:48 PM) *
Raptor you've been on this board a while now to know that I have posted 4,000,000 posts about "evolution vs. creationism" and I don't really feel like getting it into it again. If you think I lost thats fine, or the other names ive been called by you people means nothing to me sorry. I refuse to do this again, you should know better that these threads end up with no winner and name calling and insulting of character on BOTH sides. This is completely beating a dead horse. When I first got to this board I was debating with you God-less folk for a while now about evolution and its loopholes. I saw where the conversation went to everytime and often ended up in name calling, or closed threads. I've done it so much that its losing its appeal to me. If you believe that we came from goo thats fine but there are others that believe we were elegantly created in the image of the God of the universe, to each their own. I do believe like spirituality, evolution does need faith to believe in since it is still remains a theory.


Naturally, of course, that's why you presented quickly on a thread that was going to be about a guy criticizing evolution with a cheap shot towards evolutionary theory, whined for several pages about how "you aren't going to get into this debate again", then posted something which was ripped to shreds, and now here you are again, whining about how you aren't going to get involved with this debate over evolution again. rolleyes.gif I'm getting tired of your evasions; either stay in the thread and debate evolution (which is what the thread is about, since the OP was about a guy criticizing evolution), or get out, and stop wasting everyone's bandwidth.
Leonardo
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Sep 24 2007, 02:29 AM) *
Sorry for the double posting but a pose another question to cimber or camlax, well anyone that is knowledgeable in science.

It has been stated that biological evolution should not repeat itself but it appears that there was a study on salamanders that continues to show proof that evolution DOES repeat itself.


hairston,

It is easy to make statements about theory, many scientists do this all the time. When those statements disagree with observation, I usually go with the observation. Less likelihood of ego getting in the way of science that way.

Doesn't make Evolutionary Theory wrong, just that someone made a statement with regard to it that may have been unsupported and, perhaps due to their qualifications/profile, this statement became commonly-known. Science eventually corrects itself.
seanph
QUOTE
According to Morris Goodmans conclusion chimps and humans are around 99.4% in sequence identity. I believe its around 95% when indels (insertions/deletions) were considered along with substitutions. Another study had came up with 86.7% similarity when comparing segments of both human and chimp dna. These chimps have physiological, anatomical, behavioral, and cultural differences that seperate genera of humans and monkeys.

References

Fazale Rana, Ph.D. "Do Humans and Chimps Belong In The Same Genus?"

Derek E. Wildman et al., “Implications of Natural Selection in Shaping 99.4% Nonsynonymous DNA Identity between Humans and Chimpanzees: Enlarging Genus Homo,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 100 (2003): 7181-88.

Roy J. Brutten, “Divergence between Samples of Chimpanzee and Human DNA Sequences is 5%, Counting Indels,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 99 (2002): 13633-35.

Tatsuya Anzai et al., “Comparative Sequencing of Human and Chimpanzee MHC Class I Regions Unveils Insertions/Deletions As the Major Path to Genomic Divergence,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 100 (2003): 7708-13.


Edit: Plus from what else I was reading it appears that work on the chimpanzee genomes hasnt began in any real sense as of yet so I think its still, to some extent, a presupposition.


Thank you, sir. wink2.gif I'll research it some more.

Kindly,

Sean
seanph
As I mentioned in a prior post, one perfect example of evolution is the human body and vestigial organ etc. Here is a terrific article on "Vestigiality" from WIKI ...

Vestigiality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigial#Controversy

Also, a stunning new find of a human second cousin!

WASHINGTON (Sept. 22) - Scientists, wringing their hands over the identity of the famed "hobbit" fossil, have found a new clue in the wrist. Since the discovery of the bones in Indonesia in 2003, researchers have wrangled over whether the find was an ancient human ancestor or simply a modern human suffering from a genetic disorder....

... "Basically, the wrist evidence tells us that modern humans and Neanderthals share an evolutionary grandparent that the hobbits do not, but all three share an evolutionary great-grandparent. If you think of modern humans and Neanderthals as being first cousins, then the hobbit is more like a second cousin to both," Tocheri said.


SOURCE
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/study-says-ho...921215709990001

Sean
GreyWeather
Well, seeing as how no one is gonna stick up for Dr. Kent Hovind. I think I'll go and find his arguments and everyone can say why his arguments are wrong.

I'll post them later if I find anything from google laugh.gif
seanph
Some of the reasons why he's an anti-intellectual quack. Hovind is the epitome of fanatical faith and blatant ignorance. The man is a myopic-minded midget. He obtained his "PhD" from Patriot University ... an unaccredited school ...!

Patriot Bible University, formerly known as Patriot University, is an unaccredited religious correspondence school located in Del Norte, Colorado. Critics charge it is a diploma mill, lacking sufficient academic standards to award degrees.[1]

Patriot is not accredited by any recognised accreditation body. As such, its degrees may not be acceptable to employers or other institutions, and use of degree titles may be restricted or illegal in some jurisdictions.


WIKI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Bible_University

Debating Dr. Dino?
March 19, 2005
Ingrid H. Shafer


I am embarrassed by the invitation by anyone in any way associated with USAO to Kent Horvind, a “young-earth creationist” who calls himself “Dr. Dino.” I am proud of the fact that no one at USAO accepted the “challenge” to engage him in a debate. Allowing oneself to be drawn into a debate with someone who claims to be a scientist but argues that the earth is 6000 years old gives a stamp of legitimacy to the promulgation of nonsense and is as absurd as offering a platform to a member of the Flat Earth society. I believe that legitimate cases can be made both for an accidental origin of the universe and a so-called “intelligent design,” and that listening to Richard Dawkins (The Blind Watchmaker) or Stephen Gould and Carl Sagan – were they still alive – debate John Barrow and Frank Tipler (The Anthropic Principle), or Paul Davies (The Mind of God) would be a valuable learning experience. I am also convinced that evolution need not be viewed as incompatible with creation (why should God not be considered capable of creating through natural processes???). I have published articles on the compatibility of evolution and Christianity both in the U.S. and in Germany, and have lectured at the Zygon Center for Religion and Science at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago.

Ken Hovind, alas, is neither a scientist nor a scripture scholar. He bases his hypotheses concerning the origin of the cosmos and life on earth not on anthropology, astronomy, chaos theory, microbiology, paleontology, quantum physics, or the study of mitochondrial DNA but on a literal interpretation of the account presented in the Judeo-Christian Book of Genesis which reflects a common-sense pre-scientific paradigm of interpreting observed phenomena and explaining the unknown in terms of inferred supernatural agency. By accepting the a priori TRUTH of that which he is trying to establish and arranging data to support the biblical account, his argument becomes circular and hence, fallacious. I am tempted to point to Galileo who cited the astute observation of the sixteenth century cardinal and church historian Cesare Baronius that "the Bible was written to show us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go." Clearly, some four hundred years ago, Baronius would have rejected Hovind’s approach. He understood, even then, that scripture is not a science text!

... I agree with Karen Bartelt’s conclusions in her “Review of Kent Hovind's Thesis”:

There is NO EVIDENCE that Kent Hovind has more than a college sophomore level of course work in ANY science. There is NO EVIDENCE from his thesis that he is widely-read in the areas of evolution, astronomy, geology, paleontology or even the history of science beyond what is written in a few young-Earth creationist books. There is ABUNDANT EVIDENCE that the requirements for a Ph.D. degree from Patriot University fall far below those of typical secular or religious institutions. Ask yourself whether you would visit a medical doctor, an auto mechanic, a plumber, or an investment counsellor with similar dubious credentials. If so, then Hovind is your science guy! Or see him for what he is, the snake-oil salesman, peddling salvation and pseudo science in the late 20th century and even unto the 21st century.
http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/bartelt...vind_thesis.htm

SOURCE
http://www.usao.edu/~facshaferi/hovind.htm

Sean
Repoman
QUOTE(northwest @ Sep 22 2007, 05:15 AM) *
everyone has the same number of kids no matter how rich or sick or poor they are.

This isn't true. Poor people produce children like rabbits. Watch the movie Idiocracy. Stupid and/or poor people breed like rabbits. That is why the earth is going downhill.
Soon everyone will be poor and technological advances will grind to a halt. Way to go political correctness!

Evolution is "only" a theory. To the literalist biblical wacko, this means evolution isn't true.
I would point out to them that gravity is also "only" a theory I strongly URGE every biblical literalist wacko to take a flying leap off a cliff and see if the theory of gravity smashes them in their holier than thou face or not.
seanph
QUOTE
... to take a flying leap off a cliff and see if the theory of gravity smashes them in their holier than thou face or not.


Repo, they'll just pray to God to stop them from falling--you know, like He did with those hijacked airliners on 9-11, and all those poor souls jumping from the windows of WTC. crying.gif Yeesh! You should know that!

Love to know where God was on that horrible day? Oh, that's right ... sometimes God just says "No"!

Sean
hairston630
QUOTE(Leonardo @ Sep 24 2007, 06:30 AM) *
hairston,

It is easy to make statements about theory, many scientists do this all the time. When those statements disagree with observation, I usually go with the observation. Less likelihood of ego getting in the way of science that way.

Doesn't make Evolutionary Theory wrong, just that someone made a statement with regard to it that may have been unsupported and, perhaps due to their qualifications/profile, this statement became commonly-known. Science eventually corrects itself.


Thanks for the reply Leonardo. I see what you mean.
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(Nephilim_Slayer @ Sep 24 2007, 10:48 AM) *
Raptor you've been on this board a while now to know that I have posted 4,000,000 posts about "evolution vs. creationism" and I don't really feel like getting it into it again. If you think I lost thats fine, or the other names ive been called by you people means nothing to me sorry. I refuse to do this again, you should know better that these threads end up with no winner and name calling and insulting of character on BOTH sides. This is completely beating a dead horse. When I first got to this board I was debating with you God-less folk for a while now about evolution and its loopholes. I saw where the conversation went to everytime and often ended up in name calling, or closed threads. I've done it so much that its losing its appeal to me. If you believe that we came from goo thats fine but there are others that believe we were elegantly created in the image of the God of the universe, to each their own. I do believe like spirituality, evolution does need faith to believe in since it is still remains a theory.
Hi Nephilim. I've just had a detailed look through your entire post history. It took quite some time, but I managed to gather all the posts you have made that argues for creationism. There were 19 of them (not including the posts in this thread, which basically started off with "I'm tired of repeating myself"). Most of them were only a paragraph long, and none of them made any attempt to disprove evolution. You linked one youtube video that was made to prove evolution was invented by Satan, and one of your most early posts made a small reference to the human predisposition to beauty. But overall, your posts were vague and not convincing. I saved all 19 replies, if you would like me to post links to them, I can.

I don't mean to attack, but after spending the time going through your post history, it sounds to me like you're just playing the wounded warrior here, as if you have made scything and scintillating responses over and over again and are simply tired of discussing it. If you could maybe link us to one or two of your replies in previous threads in which you debated evolution vs creationism, please do so. It's always possible that I missed a reply or two while looking through your history. But until that happens, your protestations in this thread that you have debated the point over and over again will fall on deaf ears, I think.
Repoman
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Sep 24 2007, 12:01 PM) *
Hi Nephilim. I've just had a detailed look through your entire post history. It took quite some time, but I managed to gather all the posts you have made that argues for creationism.

I have a feeling he ran away screming when he realized someone had called his bluff about all of the careful research he has been kind enough to share with us.
Raptor
QUOTE(Nephilim_Slayer @ Sep 24 2007, 01:48 AM) *
Raptor you've been on this board a while now to know that I have posted 4,000,000 posts about "evolution vs. creationism" and I don't really feel like getting it into it again.


Oh, I know that you've spoken about evolution before (just as you're speaking about it now), but you have not discredited evolution in any of your posts, which is what you are now claiming to have done.

QUOTE
If you believe that we came from goo thats fine but there are others that believe we were elegantly created in the image of the God of the universe, to each their own. I do believe like spirituality, evolution does need faith to believe in since it is still remains a theory.


To what extent do you disbelieve evolution?

Do you believe that God created us all and put us on the Earth, and set things in motion so that we could evolve from that point on? Or do you believe that evolution just doesn't happen at all?

I don't know how much you do or don't understand evolution, but what I do know is that every person who I've met before who doesn't believe evolution, had done so because they didn't understand it. They thought it was supposed to be some mysterious thing that scientists say "just happened" for no real apparent reason.

Here's a situation: You have a carnivorous animal that lives in the desert which likes to feed on whatever prey it can find during the day. Now you have a wild shrew which just gave birth to a litter of 6 offspring, some are golden brown while others are darker brown. Do you agree that the most likely ones to be killed are the darker ones? Then the golden ones are most likely to become adults and to reproduce, then the next generation will be composed of more golden shrews.

Do you have a problem with any of that? I really want to know what you think, because that's pretty much the key to evolution, and it doesn't take much more than common sense to see how inevitable it is.
northwest
QUOTE(Repoman @ Sep 24 2007, 03:10 PM) *
This isn't true. Poor people produce children like rabbits. Watch the movie Idiocracy. Stupid and/or poor people breed like rabbits. That is why the earth is going downhill.
Soon everyone will be poor and technological advances will grind to a halt. Way to go political correctness!

Evolution is "only" a theory. To the literalist biblical wacko, this means evolution isn't true.
I would point out to them that gravity is also "only" a theory I strongly URGE every biblical literalist wacko to take a flying leap off a cliff and see if the theory of gravity smashes them in their holier than thou face or not.


I guess you are right, I haven't thought of that. That makes it an anti-natural selection then
northwest
QUOTE(seanph @ Sep 24 2007, 03:18 PM) *
Repo, they'll just pray to God to stop them from falling--you know, like He did with those hijacked airliners on 9-11, and all those poor souls jumping from the windows of WTC. crying.gif Yeesh! You should know that!

Love to know where God was on that horrible day? Oh, that's right ... sometimes God just says "No"!

Sean


He was in imagination of believers, as usual
eqgumby
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Sep 24 2007, 11:01 AM) *
Hi Nephilim. I've just had a detailed look through your entire post history. It took quite some time, but I managed to gather all the posts you have made that argues for creationism. There were 19 of them (not including the posts in this thread, which basically started off with "I'm tired of repeating myself"). *snip* But until that happens, your protestations in this thread that you have debated the point over and over again will fall on deaf ears, I think.

huh.gif
laugh.gif
OK, so THIS is what I should do next time I have the urge to just type SHUT UP YOU IDIOT!
This is possibly the longest post I've ever seen that can be summed up by saying "Put up or shut up".
camlax
QUOTE(eqgumby @ Sep 24 2007, 03:55 PM) *
huh.gif
laugh.gif
OK, so THIS is what I should do next time I have the urge to just type SHUT UP YOU IDIOT!
This is possibly the longest post I've ever seen that can be summed up by saying "Put up or shut up".



At this point I don't think it is possible to coerce any of these "I can prove evolution wrong" types into actually having a scientific debate/talk on evolution. Its pretty obvious for one to draw their own conclusions as to what this means.
questionmark
QUOTE(camlax @ Sep 25 2007, 12:54 AM) *
At this point I don't think it is possible to coerce any of these "I can prove evolution wrong" types into actually having a scientific debate/talk on evolution. Its pretty obvious for one to draw their own conclusions as to what this means.


I would not mind a debate if besides mumbo-jumbo there would be a conclusion that is not: "because the world was created 4876 BC on Monday the 8th of August at 17:00 EST" which is what the creationists always end up with (though they can't seem to agree on the date).

And before a creationist wants to waste his breath: If you don't have tangible proof don't bother to reply. And doing some mathematical acrobatics based on obscure numbers in the Bible is NOT tangible proof.



Captain Kolak
I don't know about you but this is a guy that doesn't sound too bright. He might know alot of science and all but his mind is so corrupt that he makes up funny stuff. So of his "proofs" are him screwing the truth so badly so that people will isten. I hate him period. I would read his books though. I like being up to date on what the religious people have to say about science XD
camlax
Well, I am sitting here typing a paper for work allowing myself be distracted by UM! wink2.gif , I really can't grasp the unwillingness on the anti-evolutionists part to talk about evolution from a scientific standpoint on here. A prime opportunity going to waste!
hairston630
I have another....

On the cambrian explosion

According to the evolutionary model, benthic animals should have appeared during the early Cambrian [explosion], followed much later by pelagic organisms. Increased predation of bottom dwellers was, presumably, the “evolutionary” driving force behind marine creatures’ transition to the open sea. The open-sea environment allows for greater safety and avoidance of predatory attacks. Moreover, the activity of benthic organisms, over time, would have increased the nutrient levels in the open sea, eventually making way for occupation of this niche.

A duo of paleontologists from France and China have published findings that stand in sharp contrast to these evolutionary expectations.7 By examining newly available fossil specimens of a long-extinct marine crustacean (Isoxys) having unusually well preserved soft-body parts, the French and Chinese paleontologists found that Isoxys occupied an open-sea environment. The Isoxys specimens revealed swimming appendages, visual organs, and shell design all consistent with those expected of an organism living in the open sea.

The recovery of Isoxys from early Cambrian rocks makes this discovery even more remarkable. Pelagic lifestyles could not have evolved from benthic lifestyles. Rather, the fossil record shows that exploitation of both the open sea and sea floor occurred simultaneously. Moreover, the shell design of Ixosys displays long spines extending from the anterior and posterior ends. These spines would not have contributed to Isoxys buoyancy, and therefore, must have served as defensive structures in the face of open-sea predatory threats—again, an unexpected finding.


As paleontologists develop an increased understanding of the Cambrian ecology, they find more and more evidence that the ecosystems of that time were complex, expansive, and highly integrated. The first complex animals possessed surprisingly advanced capabilities, enabling them to exploit the full range of ecological niches. Doesnt this seem to raise a challenge?

Fazale Rana, "Extinct Shell Fish Speaks Today"

Jean Vannier and Jun-Yuan Chen, “The Early Cambrian Colonization of Pelagic Niches Exemplified by Isoxys (Arthropoda),” Lethaia 33 (2000): 295-311.

Fazale Rana and Hugh Ross, “The Cambrian ‘Explosion’ and Why It Means So Much for Christians,” Facts for Faith (Q2 2000), 15-17.

Simon Conway Morris, “The Cambrian ‘Explosion’: Slow Fuse or Megatonnage?” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 97 (2000): 4426-29.

Simon Coway Morris,“The Community Structure of the Middle Cambrian Phyllopod Bed (Burgess Shale),” Paleontology 29 (1986): 423-67.

Steven J. Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History (New York: W. W. Norton, 1989), 222-24.

Philip W. Signor and Geeret J. Vermeij, “The Plankton and the Benthos: Origins and Early History of an Evolving Relationship,” Paleobiology 20 (1994): 297-319.

Vannier and Chen, 295-311.
seanph
Morning H. original.gif TO has some very good discussions on this issue here ...

The Cambrian explosion
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC301.html
&
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC300.html

Most kindly,

Sean
questionmark
^ An “explosion”?
The term “explosion” may be a bit of a misnomer. Cambrian life did not evolve in the blink of an eye. The Cambrian was preceded by many millions of years of evolution, and many of the animal phyla actually diverged during the Precambrian.

The animals of the Cambrian did not appear out of thin air. Animal fossils from before the Cambrian have been found. Roughly 575 million years ago, a strange group of animals known as Ediacarans lived in the oceans. Although, we don’t know much about the Ediacarans, the group may have included ancestors of the lineages that we identify from the Cambrian explosion.

Source: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo1...cCambrian.shtml
Watchful
Well, I haven't read all of the posts on this thread, though did skim through some. Skimmed through enough of the posts that talked about the scientific theories and the sources to show, that I can tell that the posters not only know what they are talking about, but I think that they show a lot of relevance and should be taken seriously.
Ok, from that, I started watching the video, ...............and got turned off immediately. Granted, I think the man has done his research, to try to back up his claims. From what I gather from the bit I did watch. From what I saw though, he he asks hypothetical questions to make a point where did all this or all that came from. The thing is, they may seem to be good questions for him, but I think he arrogantly asks them thinking no one can answer it or will in the future. I do not think there is no way to write off an unanswered question, and if we are provided with the proof of something, then I'm sure it can be answered some how. This is in referenced to the chemicals he claims came from nowhere, when talking about the big bang.
On that note, the man is a charmer, and if anything, I think he can go far............as a comedian. laugh.gif
The one thing that turned me off, was not that he fervantly believes the bible as truth, in fact, I respect him for saying that he 'believes', and I will not debate him on that, he should be allowed to believe, but that he thinks that we should read it, and that we should be 'saved' and that we should be doing something 'for God', if we are saved. He says he is going to come after you, if you are not saved, and if saved, not doing something for God. That sounds threatning, and against everyone's rights to live free.
That is what turned me off. Also, when talking about his family, that he married off his boys, and that he's hoping to marry off his daughter and making a comment about someone else taking off her payments. I wonder, does his daughter live on her own, or at his house? I hate that term. Someone mentioned and asked why my dad didn't marry me off yet. My father didn't answer that, and I am proud of my dad for that. My dad just allowed me to live my life, and told me how proud of me no matter what. I'm sure that guy did look silly, when my dad didn't answer him. It was none of his business.
Meaning, this Kent lost all credibility with me after that, and I turned him off. Somebody threatning should be turned off. That's my take.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Chokmah @ Sep 22 2007, 04:58 PM) *
It's funny, people dismiss fossil records and thus evolutionary theory. Because it's theory, it's nothing more than an "opinion".

When... They're using a computer that is based around a theory. Yet, they see electricity as fact - even though it's just a theory. laugh.gif

Ironic isn't it laugh.gif
camlax
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Sep 24 2007, 11:37 PM) *
I have another....

On the cambrian explosion

According to the evolutionary model, benthic animals should have appeared during the early Cambrian [explosion], followed much later by pelagic organisms. Increased predation of bottom dwellers was, presumably, the “evolutionary” driving force behind marine creatures’ transition to the open sea. The open-sea environment allows for greater safety and avoidance of predatory attacks. Moreover, the activity of benthic organisms, over time, would have increased the nutrient levels in the open sea, eventually making way for occupation of this niche.

A duo of paleontologists from France and China have published findings that stand in sharp contrast to these evolutionary expectations.7 By examining newly available fossil specimens of a long-extinct marine crustacean (Isoxys) having unusually well preserved soft-body parts, the French and Chinese paleontologists found that Isoxys occupied an open-sea environment. The Isoxys specimens revealed swimming appendages, visual organs, and shell design all consistent with those expected of an organism living in the open sea.

The recovery of Isoxys from early Cambrian rocks makes this discovery even more remarkable. Pelagic lifestyles could not have evolved from benthic lifestyles. Rather, the fossil record shows that exploitation of both the open sea and sea floor occurred simultaneously. Moreover, the shell design of Ixosys displays long spines extending from the anterior and posterior ends. These spines would not have contributed to Isoxys buoyancy, and therefore, must have served as defensive structures in the face of open-sea predatory threats—again, an unexpected finding.
As paleontologists develop an increased understanding of the Cambrian ecology, they find more and more evidence that the ecosystems of that time were complex, expansive, and highly integrated. The first complex animals possessed surprisingly advanced capabilities, enabling them to exploit the full range of ecological niches. Doesnt this seem to raise a challenge?

Fazale Rana, "Extinct Shell Fish Speaks Today"

Jean Vannier and Jun-Yuan Chen, “The Early Cambrian Colonization of Pelagic Niches Exemplified by Isoxys (Arthropoda),” Lethaia 33 (2000): 295-311.

Fazale Rana and Hugh Ross, “The Cambrian ‘Explosion’ and Why It Means So Much for Christians,” Facts for Faith (Q2 2000), 15-17.

Simon Conway Morris, “The Cambrian ‘Explosion’: Slow Fuse or Megatonnage?” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA 97 (2000): 4426-29.

Simon Coway Morris,“The Community Structure of the Middle Cambrian Phyllopod Bed (Burgess Shale),” Paleontology 29 (1986): 423-67.

Steven J. Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History (New York: W. W. Norton, 1989), 222-24.

Philip W. Signor and Geeret J. Vermeij, “The Plankton and the Benthos: Origins and Early History of an Evolving Relationship,” Paleobiology 20 (1994): 297-319.

Vannier and Chen, 295-311.


I am not an expert on Cambrian life, so maybe Cimber might have some more to add. Both Sean and Questionmark's posts were very good as well, you should be sure to read through the links they provided. I think it's also important to note, that the word explosion is a somewhat misleading term, as it describes a period of time over millions of years.


I dont think this poses a problem at all. It just gives us a more refined time scale that things occurred. It also tells us complex life is older than we thought. As per you source

QUOTE
The presence of Isoxys in the Maotianshan Shale of S. China indicates that arthropods had already colonized midwater niches by the Early Cambrian. The midwater communities of the Maotianshan Shale comprised numerous other invertebrates, such as abundant medusiform eldonids, vetulicolids, chordates and possibly early vertebrates. This contradicts the opinion that pelagic communities remained poorly developed until late Cambrian/Ordovician times and that the occupation of the midwater niches largely post-dates the initial diversification of the benthic faunas.


Here is part of their conclusion, which I see poses no problem to evolution, only a refinement of time lines.
QUOTE
Isoxys is certainly not the only organism to have colonized pelagic niches during the Early Cambrian. The Maotianshan Shale biota contains a number of other pelagic candidates or occasional swimmers. The eldonids, a group of medusiform eucoelomates were probably the most abundant midwater organisms with capabilities for buoyancy regulation. Anomalocarids
were active swimmers and macrophagous predators of possibly both epibenthic and midwater invertebrates (Chen et al. 1995; Hou et al. 1995; Chen & Zhou 1997; Chen et al. 1996). The enigmatic vetulicolids (e.g. Vetulicola cuneatus; Hou 1987, Chen et al. in prep.) were also members of the midwater communities but were not predators. Morphology indicates that early
chordates (Chen et al. 1995) and possibly vertebrates (Shu et al. 1999), well represented in the Maotianshan Shale biota, were probably nektonic ®lterers (Chen et al. 1999). This provisional inventory indicates that several animal phyla had already invaded the midwater environment by Early Cambrian times. This contradicts the opinion (Signor & Vermeij 1994) that pelagic
communities remained poorly developed until late Cambrian/Ordovician times and that the occupation of the midwater niches largely post-dates the initial diversi®cation of the benthic faunas.
Jean Vannier and Jun-Yuan Chen, “The Early Cambrian Colonization of Pelagic Niches Exemplified by Isoxys (Arthropoda),” Lethaia 33 (2000): 295-311.



Jean Vannier and Jun-Yuan Chen, “The Early Cambrian Colonization of Pelagic Niches Exemplified by Isoxys (Arthropoda),” Lethaia 33 (2000): 295-311.

As for the reasons source, From a quick read I can see that it is someone "out to get" evolution with no real understanding of what they are talking about, though I am not a biologist I can point out several flaws or incorrect statements made by the author.

QUOTE
China’s rich cache of fossils provides paleontologists with a window to the time in Earth’s history when complex animal life first appeared. As scientists peer through this window, they see a scene that defies naturalistic explanation.

The fossils discovered in China, along with those in British Columbia and elsewhere, present an unexpected picture: nearly every animal phylum ever to exist in Earth’s history appeared suddenly about 540 million years ago.1 The author is rather dubious here, she/he quotes their source for this as themselves to an article that is neither peer-reviewed nor even hosted by the website anymore for that matter. There are many missing phyla from the Cambrian. A phylum refers to the level in the biological classification system describing an organism’s body plan or architectural makeup.Phylum refers to a taxonomical division by internal plan. Also, looks can be deceiving, Which is why classifications are not done solely on looks alone. Some paleontologists report that more than seventy animal phyla (strictly marine animals) appeared in less than 2-3 million years. Scientists refer to this dramatic introduction of animal phyla as the Cambrian Explosion—biology’s “big bang.”I would like to see where she pulled this from, it is not cited. Low end estimates of the Cambrian explosion range from 5 million years, they go up to 40 million years. As far as I am aware no one is claiming these phyla came into existence in 2-3 million years.

Paleontologists had thought the Cambrian event involved only invertebrates (organisms lacking a backbone). However, the recent discovery of jawless vertebrates from the lower (earlier) Cambrian deposits in China changed their view. Researchers must now account for the simultaneous appearance of both groups.2 Here she flat out lies too or purposefully deceives her readers. Here source says it all with this quote from their conclusion:
QUOTE(Shu et al.)
The major steps in the early evolution of chordates may well have occurred in the late Neoproterozoic. To date, however, no suitable fossil candidates have been identified amongst the Ediacaran assemblages, although preservation in siltstones and sandstones is less conducive to survival of delicate soft-bodied taxa. Our discovery, however, gives no reason to suppose that the origin of vertebrates was hundreds of millions of years earlier, and the reliability of the methods used to reach such a conclusion has been questioned elsewhere.



The phylum Chordata holds special interest for paleontologists researching the origin of animal life. Chordates include all vertebrates (fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals) and some invertebrates. To understand the origin of chordates, therefore, is to understand the beginning of some of the most important organisms in Earth’s history. For this reason, evolutionary biologists peer eagerly through this window of time. They especially hope to see the connection between chordates and the other invertebrate phyla.

According to the most widely accepted evolutionary model, echinoderms (sea stars, sea cucumbers, etc.) gave rise to chordates (and to hemichordates, as an evolutionary side-branch).3 This model posits that a sessile (attached to the seafloor) echinoderm brought forth a sessile chordate (classified as a urochordate), similar to modern-day tunicates (sessile invertebrates with a free-swimming larval form). The urochordate then gave rise to a free-swimming cephalochordate, which in turn produced jawless vertebrates, followed by jawed vertebrates.

The prediction for the fossil record, in light of the evolutionary model for chordate origins, calls for echinoderms, urochordates, hemichordates, cephalochordates, jawless vertebrates, and jawed vertebrates to appear sequentially. Given the extensive differences among these groups, their first occurrence in the fossil record should be separated by long time periods, much longer than the 2-3 million years shown by the Cambrian Explosion. Again, no one is claiming it was 2-3 million years but her. Also it is important to note that while this a suspected path to vertebrates it is exhaustive. Any evidence contrary to this would not disprove evolution, but rather make our understanding of it more accurate. So while she poses a question as to whether this is the correct sequence of groups, it does nothing to help "disprove evolution"

The China discoveries show, instead, the co-existence of echinoderms, hermichordates, cephalochordates, and jawless vertebrates in the earliest part of the Cambrian era.4 Again she sources herself for this, which is a rather large claim. If it is true why not source something as accepted as an annual review, which is normally done by the top people in the field. At this point, her credibility has taken another huge hit. And I think it should be important to be noted, I have a pretty extensive research Database, I have never heard of the Journal Connections. I cannot find any mention of it in all the journals the university I work for has access too, only mention to a magazine, which is not peer-reviewed. And now Chinese paleontologists have added urochordates to this list with the discovery of a tunicate in lower (earlier) Cambrian rocks.5 Before the Cambrian era, no such animal groups existed on Earth. In other words, early in the Cambrian period, when complex animal life first appeared, the kinds of creatures that should have given rise (according to evolutionary theory) to the jawed vertebrates emerged concurrently.

From Shu's Paper
QUOTE
Urochordata are believed to represent the most basal chordate branch within Chordata11,26; however, whether the ancestral chordates were free-swimming or sessile has been a long-standing question18,26,27. Traditional hypotheses hold that vertebrates evolved by paedomorphosis from a urochordate-like larval stage, and that the ancestor of chordates would have resembled a sessile lophophorate12,13,27. Recent models, supported by molecular data, posit a free-swimming ancestry of chordates, including urochordates28±30. Fossils may preserve combinations of characters not seen in extant groups, and so are crucial for testing schemes of how characters were acquired in the origin of new body plans. The interpretation of the present specimen, as possessing oral tentacles comparable to those seen in lophophorates, is consistent with traditional viewsÐif not modern, molecule-based hypothesesÐbut a single example is far from being conclusive. Further palaeontological and molecular work is needed to investigate the problem.


Does not sound too problematic to me, only a possible refinement of knowledge. Also It sounds as though she is viewing the progression as a linear one. First one then it becomes extinct and the other arises. This may not be the case, Lets say we have two populations living in different areas, both the populations belong to the same species. If the populations are seperated then there is no problem with changes occurring to both simultaneously.


To compound this problem, Chinese paleontologists now recognize an additional phylum (Vetulicolia) as part of the Cambrian event.6 This taxa’s features place it at the base of the chordate evolutionary tree. This makes the Cambrian explosion that much more dramatic. In the words of the Chinese scientists, “the co-occurrence of stem-group deuterostomes [Vetulicolia] and agnathan [jawless] fish are consistent with an ‘explosion’ of metazoan body plans in the latest Neoproterozoic and early Cambrian.”7

What researchers see as their view through the window of time grows clearer is the sudden and simultaneous appearance of echinoderms, hemichordates, urochordates, cephalochordates and jawless vertebrates in the fossil record. This image, with its observable data, confounds a naturalistic explanation but conforms to a biblical creation model that asserts the divinely orchestrated introduction of complex animal life on Earth.

1. Fazale Rana and Hugh Ross, “The Cambrian ‘Explosion’ and Why It Means So Much for Christians,” Facts for Faith 2 (Q2 2000), 15-17.
2. D. –G. Shu et al., “Lower Cambrian Vertebrates from South China,” Nature 402 (1999): 42-46; Jun-Yung Chen et al., “An Early Cambrian Craniate-like Chordate,” Nature 402 (1999): 518-22.
3. Cleveland P. Hickman, Sr. et al., Integrated Principles of Zoology, 6th ed. (St. Louis, MO: The C. V. Mosby Company, 1979), 476-81.
4. Fazale R. Rana, “Cambrian Flash,” Connections, vol. 2, no. 1 (2000), 3; Fazale “Fuz” Rana, “Extinct Shell Fish Speaks Today,” Connections vol. 3, no. 2 (2001), 1-2.
5. D. –G. Shu et al., “An Early Cambrian Tunicate from China,” Nature 411 (2001): 472-3.
6. D. –G. Shu et al., “Primitive Deuterostomes from the Chengjiang Lagerstatte (Lower Cambrian, China),” Nature 414 (2001): 419-24.
7. D. –G. Shu et al., “Primitive Deuterostomes,” 419-24.





Ill have to finish the rest later, I have to go to a meeting. Hope that helps.
hairston630
Thanks for the responses guys. I am no way in any way shape or form even an ametuer in science and evolution. Im trying to learn about it and to be honest, im definitely starting to get a basic understanding from alot of the replies you guys post. I apologize for the weak sources ive provided and i apologize for outdated material as well. If I post something questionable dont hesitate to correct me as I have no axe to grind or any reason to try and disprove evolution. It appears that evolution is starting to make sense that it is something that the human eye can observe and test and to deny those existing things you see is assinine or denying reality. I urge christians to analyze material without a bias or closed mind and understand that alot of evolutionary principles seem to be correct and I also urge that this theory does not effect their religion in any way. But at the same time I wish that skeptics and unbelievers wouldnt try and use evolution as ammunition to destroy someones faith unless that person is reading a literal english interpretation of genesis 1 or believes in a young earth.
questionmark
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Sep 25 2007, 08:03 PM) *
But at the same time I wish that skeptics and unbelievers wouldnt try and use evolution as ammunition to destroy someones faith unless that person is reading a literal english interpretation of genesis 1 or believes in a young earth.


By no way we want to destroy what you believe in, as long as you are not trying to impose it on us.

At the same time we do not want to see believes obfuscating facts.

As you see in my signature: A skeptic is a well informed believer.

hairston630
QUOTE(questionmark @ Sep 25 2007, 05:34 PM) *
By no way we want to destroy what you believe in, as long as you are not trying to impose it on us.

At the same time we do not want to see believes obfuscating facts.

As you see in my signature: A skeptic is a well informed believer.


Yeah I understand and I dont want to believers do that either. I dont want to impose anything on anyone...I just dont see it biblical to force anything on anyone, and I apologize if I have appeared to do so in the past. I want to get a foundation of evolution to help other christians understand that not all scientists are out to kill a religion and that alot of the information on the theory has nothing to do with bashing a religion in the first place.
JMPD1
Hairston, you do realize that for the majority of scientists, they are NOT out to disprove religion, right? That is not the function of science, although it may be an unintentional byproduct.
hairston630
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ Sep 25 2007, 07:50 PM) *
Hairston, you do realize that for the majority of scientists, they are NOT out to disprove religion, right? That is not the function of science, although it may be an unintentional byproduct.


No i completely realize this. Im referring to some of the articles they write on the net. It appears that alot use evolution to try and disprove a religion more than to educate....and im not referring to the majority, im referring to a small few.
Son of _Adam
QUOTE(Captain Kolak @ Sep 24 2007, 11:52 PM) *
I don't know about you but this is a guy that doesn't sound too bright. He might know alot of science and all but his mind is so corrupt that he makes up funny stuff. So of his "proofs" are him screwing the truth so badly so that people will isten. I hate him period. I would read his books though. I like being up to date on what the religious people have to say about science XD



Try reading on what Francis M. Collins, a believer in God and a Yale graduate in biology as well as the brain behind the human genome project, has to say about science.
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