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Lt_Ripley
What if you spent one year following every rule in the Bible?

A. J. Jacobs did exactly that.

Courtesy A.J. Jacobs
A Biblical Beard: Jacobs tried to follow every commandment in the Bible, including the one about avoiding the barber shop.



Updated: 5:06 p.m. ET Sept 21, 2007
Sept. 21, 2007 - After A. J. Jacobs spent a year reading the entire Encyclopaedia Britannica for his book “The Know-It-All,” he figured he had the yearlong experiment thing down. How much harder could it be to follow every rule in the Bible? Much, much harder, he soon discovered, as he found himself growing his beard, struggling not to curse and asking strangers for permission to stone them for adultery. Jacobs spent the year carrying around a stapled list of the more than 700 rules and prohibitions identified in the Good Book, and also consulted with religious leaders and spent time with the Amish, Hassidic Jews and Jehovah’s Witnesses. He spoke to NEWSWEEK’s Jennie Yabroff about his experience and his new book, “The Year of Living Biblically” (Simon & Schuster), which goes on sale Oct. 9.

CONTINUED
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20910659/site/newsweek/?from=rss
northwest
You can't follow every rule in the Bible, obviously because rules changed when Jesus came and contradict rules of old, and a christian should follow Jesus, not Jewish law.
You can live both by "eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek" at the same time, these are two different philosophies.

I think the man just embarrassed him self, both from perspective of an atheist and a believer.
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE(northwest @ Sep 22 2007, 06:58 PM) *
You can't follow every rule in the Bible, obviously because rules changed when Jesus came and contradict rules of old, and a christian should follow Jesus, not Jewish law.
You can live both by "eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek" at the same time, these are two different philosophies.

I think the man just embarrassed him self, both from perspective of an atheist and a believer.


but the 'sin' of homosexuality is taken from the old law . that is where the gosples get it . it wasn't from Jesus. so why hasn't that changed ? it's called cherry picking. it fits a hateful agenda by christians to hate anyone that isn't like them.

Jesus also 'said' he came not to destroy the law but to fullfill it. so if you really do believe in the bible ( esp the new testament)

Jesus Himself states that as long as heaven and earth exist not one jot or not one tittle will pass from the law until all is fulfilled. Now you will find in a concordance that jot and tittle mean letter. Here Jesus clearly states that not one letter of the law will be changed as long as heaven and earth exist. We know that the law came from the Old Testament so based solely on (Matthew 5:18), it nor the Old Testament can not be done away with. There is clearly a discrepancy between what is being taught and what the scriptures say.

in other words -------- the old law still applies. so all you christian men better start growing your beards . absolutely no work on the sabbath of any kind , ect....................

I think the embarressment is yours seeing as he knows the bible better being an agnostic.
northwest
These old laws were a part of the old covenant, a contract with Jews, and you would not be a part of it in any way, if you were not a Jew, and you don't have to be a Jew to accept Jesus.

And even if Jesus said that (perhaps to ease the minds of fundementalists) , he had clearly show with practical examples
that he had broken many of these old laws.

Either way you can't have it both ways, either you follow Jesus who brakes those laws and brings new, or
you follow the old ones which don't make you a Jesus follower.

But why would anyone who is not a Jew follow Jewish laws?
Not like he would benefit from them, because the contract didn't concern him in the first place
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Lt_Ripley @ Sep 22 2007, 05:53 PM) *
What if you spent one year following every rule in the Bible?

A. J. Jacobs did exactly that.

Courtesy A.J. Jacobs
A Biblical Beard: Jacobs tried to follow every commandment in the Bible, including the one about avoiding the barber shop.



Updated: 5:06 p.m. ET Sept 21, 2007
Sept. 21, 2007 - After A. J. Jacobs spent a year reading the entire Encyclopaedia Britannica for his book “The Know-It-All,” he figured he had the yearlong experiment thing down. How much harder could it be to follow every rule in the Bible? Much, much harder, he soon discovered, as he found himself growing his beard, struggling not to curse and asking strangers for permission to stone them for adultery. Jacobs spent the year carrying around a stapled list of the more than 700 rules and prohibitions identified in the Good Book, and also consulted with religious leaders and spent time with the Amish, Hassidic Jews and Jehovah’s Witnesses. He spoke to NEWSWEEK’s Jennie Yabroff about his experience and his new book, “The Year of Living Biblically” (Simon & Schuster), which goes on sale Oct. 9.

CONTINUED
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20910659/site/newsweek/?from=rss


Even if he followed every rule in the book, he would still fall short of the kingdom of God. Reason being is because God demands mercy, faith, and justice. This is an old testament quote. Interesting if you think about it. The Law of Moses tells us to stone adulteresses, yet God asks for mercy. The Law of Moses tells us to strictly follow each Law, but yet God asks for faith. The Law of Moses allows men to own slaves, yet God asks for justice.

Without the mercy, faith, and justice (which are fulfilled in Jesus Christ) we will fall short of the kingdom of God.
Paranoid Android
Moved to the correct category. Lt Ripley - the Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs board is not for debating and arguing, but for simply sharing ideas. While there was no problem with the thread itself, your subsequent reply has made your intentions clear.
northwest
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ Sep 22 2007, 11:44 PM) *
Even if he followed every rule in the book, he would still fall short of the kingdom of God. Reason being is because God demands mercy, faith, and justice. This is an old testament quote. Interesting if you think about it. The Law of Moses tells us to stone adulteresses, yet God asks for mercy. The Law of Moses tells us to strictly follow each Law, but yet God asks for faith. The Law of Moses allows men to own slaves, yet God asks for justice.

Without the mercy, faith, and justice (which are fulfilled in Jesus Christ) we will fall short of the kingdom of God.


You are much better with words than I am grin2.gif

Paranoid Android
QUOTE(northwest @ Sep 23 2007, 08:58 AM) *
You can't follow every rule in the Bible, obviously because rules changed when Jesus came and contradict rules of old, and a christian should follow Jesus, not Jewish law.
You can live both by "eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek" at the same time, these are two different philosophies.

I think the man just embarrassed him self, both from perspective of an atheist and a believer.
I'd have to disagree with this, northwest. The rules did not "change" when Jesus came. They have been "fulfilled" though. I know you probably meant that, and it may sound like I'm arguing semantics, but to argue that the rules "changed" or no longer exist is not biblical. Such responses as the one Lt Ripley made to you about this, and how the law has not been abolished fails to recognise that at the same time the Law has been fulfilled. Thus Laws that applied one way in the Old Testament still do apply, they just don't apply in the same way as they did before.

One other thing worth noting - punishment is not the same as Law. The Law "Do not commit adultery" is one thing. The punishment "adulterers will be stoned" is another. The Law "do not commit adultery" is still valid today, though it has been "fulfilled" by Jesus when he said that if you even look at a woman lustfully you have already committed adultery in your heart. The punishment has been removed, and replaced with "Love your neighbour", and "judge not".

However - it should be worth noting that the New Testament does still promise punishment for all sin (including adultery). The wages of sin is death. In other words, all people who sin (including adulterers) are scheduled for a death penalty. But since everyone is under this punishment now, to carry it out against one person would be hypocritical because no one has lived a life without sin. Jesus did, and that is why he is the only one who can save us. But I'll stop there for fear of preaching.

So before people start telling me that I have to keep all 600+ commands of the Old Testament remember that Jesus fulfilled all those laws. Above all - the law falls roughly into two overall commands - Love God, and Love your neighbour. Everything hangs on those two laws.

Oh yes, one more thing that came to mind. This person who lived for an entire year following all Old Testament laws - How did this person manage to spend an entire year following all the Old Testament laws without ever once being charged with animal cruelty? Slaughtering lambs for his sins. Did he act as a High Priest and sacrifice animals for the people as well, or did he just follow the ones that were made for non-priests?

Just a few questions to consider......
northwest
I wouldn't call this death as punishment, more like suicide.
And it isn't real death either, because you still go to sheol , no matter how evil you are.
It's just that you don't get a ticket for resurrection
AmazingAtheist
The rules did change .. Thats a fact .

If you read 'Love thy neighbour'

In it's original form it's 'Love thy Jew' ..


but anyways ..

Following the Ten Commandments for a year did nothing but waste his time ..
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(Complex @ Sep 23 2007, 11:19 AM) *
If you read 'Love thy neighbour'

In it's original form it's 'Love thy Jew' ..
Where did you get that from? The word translated as 'neighbour' in Matthew 22:39 is originally in greek " πλησίον " (play-see'-on). This word does not mean "Jew". As an adjective it refers to something "close" or "near". As a noun it refers to neighbours. This word is used 17 times in the New Testament - 16 times it is translated as "neighbour". 1 time it is translated as "near" (as the adjective form). Never has it been translated as "Jew".

To make it clearer - in Luke 10, Jesus tells a lawyer the two great commands (love God, Love your neighbour). But the lawyer, as lawyers do, seeks clarification - "And who is my neighbour (play-see'-on)" (Luke 10:29). In reply, Jesus goes on to tell a parable in which a priest, a Levite, and a Samaritan pass a man who has been beaten and robbed. The priest and Levite pass by without a word. The Samaritan stops and helps him. Jesus then asks the lawyer "Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbour (play-see'-on) to the man who fell to the robbers" (Luke 10:36). The lawyer replies that it was the one who showed mercy, and Jesus encourages him to go and do likewise. But Samaritans are not Jews. The Priest and Levite were both Jews, yet they were less a neighbour to the beaten man than the Samaritan who stopped to help.

Please, Complex - tell me where you get your information on this verse being "Love thy Jew" only?
IamsSon
It is impossible to fulfill all the laws in the Bible in one year, since some of the laws require a passage of time, as much as seven years in order to be fulfilled? I wonder how his wife felt about being considered unclean and unfit to be in the house for several days out of a month?
Blizno
QUOTE(northwest @ Sep 22 2007, 04:58 PM) *
You can't follow every rule in the Bible, obviously because rules changed when Jesus came and contradict rules of old, and a christian should follow Jesus, not Jewish law.
You can live both by "eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek" at the same time, these are two different philosophies.

I think the man just embarrassed him self, both from perspective of an atheist and a believer.


Wait...the infallible God of the Bible was...wrong...during the first half? He changed His mind and we should ignore and disobey the first half but utterly believe and obey the second half...why?
Why should any Christian disobey the Written Word of God as God Himself clearly spoke it in the Bible? How dare any Christian disobey the Word of the Jewish God, whom Jesus Christ Himself obeyed and commanded His followers to obey? Isn't the Word of God forever True no matter what, Amen?
Are you saying that the Faithful can pick and choose which bits of the Bible they want to obey? Who gives them that right? Priests? Popes? Flawed humans? Should we obey flawed humans who claim the power to deny the Word of God? Should we follow flawed humans who imagine that they can disobey Jesus Christ who commanded His followers to obey Jewish law forever? How arrogant!

The Book is either true or it is false. If it is true, all of it is true. The apologists who try to pick the happy-fun parts out of the Bible while skipping over the horrific, global-genocide parts of the Bible are disobeying the Word of God.
Either God is JWHW, the God of the Flood, or else it is a lying pretendling who tries to wear the mantle of godhood.
Chokmah
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Sep 23 2007, 02:40 AM) *
It is impossible to fulfill all the laws in the Bible in one year, since some of the laws require a passage of time, as much as seven years in order to be fulfilled? I wonder how his wife felt about being considered unclean and unfit to be in the house for several days out of a month?


Probably the reason he spent a week per month on the couch/tent laugh.gif

If he followed the biblical laws - word for word, action for action - he'd be in jail long before 7 years are up. Let's be thankful he didn't wander into a pagan gathering huh.
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(blizno @ Sep 23 2007, 12:34 PM) *
Wait...the infallible God of the Bible was...wrong...during the first half? He changed His mind and we should ignore and disobey the first half but utterly believe and obey the second half...why?
Why should any Christian disobey the Written Word of God as God Himself clearly spoke it in the Bible? How dare any Christian disobey the Word of the Jewish God, whom Jesus Christ Himself obeyed and commanded His followers to obey? Isn't the Word of God forever True no matter what, Amen?
Are you saying that the Faithful can pick and choose which bits of the Bible they want to obey? Who gives them that right? Priests? Popes? Flawed humans? Should we obey flawed humans who claim the power to deny the Word of God? Should we follow flawed humans who imagine that they can disobey Jesus Christ who commanded His followers to obey Jewish law forever? How arrogant!

The Book is either true or it is false. If it is true, all of it is true. The apologists who try to pick the happy-fun parts out of the Bible while skipping over the horrific, global-genocide parts of the Bible are disobeying the Word of God.
Either God is JWHW, the God of the Flood, or else it is a lying pretendling who tries to wear the mantle of godhood.
The Bible is true (at least, i think it is). However, what may be true for one period of time may not be true for another. It may be true for me that going out on the weekend for a few beers and a good time is a good thing. But if I have a university essay due in the following day, then it is no longer true. Just because there was a law for a specific group of people thousands of years ago does not mean that the same rule applies today in exactly the same way. God was not wrong in the first half of the Bible, nor did he simply "change his mind". It has all been a part of the progressive plan of God. God originally instituted the laws of the Old covenant to bring us to one inescapable conclusion - that no one can reach God's standards. In effect, God created the Old Covenant to condemn humanity. By showing us the standards required for salvation, it was clear that no one could reach them and thus we were all doomed to failure.

This then progressed to the New Covenant, where God acted to save humanity from what they could not save themselves from. So do you continue to try to justify yourself through works (Old Covenant) and be doomed to failure, or do you rely on Jesus' sacrifice and Grace (New Testament) to save you.

This is not a contradiction or a "change" in God. This is God understanding that just because something was true at one time does not make it true for all time.

At least, that's how I see it.
Blizno
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ Sep 22 2007, 05:44 PM) *
Even if he followed every rule in the book, he would still fall short of the kingdom of God. Reason being is because God demands mercy, faith, and justice. This is an old testament quote. Interesting if you think about it. The Law of Moses tells us to stone adulteresses, yet God asks for mercy. The Law of Moses tells us to strictly follow each Law, but yet God asks for faith. The Law of Moses allows men to own slaves, yet God asks for justice.

Without the mercy, faith, and justice (which are fulfilled in Jesus Christ) we will fall short of the kingdom of God.


YHWH said it was OK to sell your sons and daughters into slavery if they disobeyed you? One millenium He commands you to commit genocide upon all who displease you and sell the survivors (including your own sons and daughters if you choose) into abject slavery (what an EVIL god!) and then suddenly He changes His mind and commands you to hug and kiss everybody, including those who are sticking spears through your body?
WHAT a FREAK! Dude needs to sit back and reconsider His plan.

As for the famous "let he who without sin cast the first stone"...
That passage did not exist in any Bible until the Middle Ages. All older Bibles do not have that passage in them. An ancient Bible from the Middle Ages has that famous passage inked into its margin, perhaps because an inventive scribe thought it sounded pious. All Bible-copies after that date have that passage written into them. Unless YHWH is waaay late with His inspirationing, Jesus is very unlikely to have participated in this passage.

The passage "Let him who is without sin..." is an invention of an inspired Middle Age Bible copier. Jesus was dead for more than a thousand years before this passage was inked onto paper.
Avinash_Tyagi
You'd be in jail
Blizno
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Sep 22 2007, 08:45 PM) *
The Bible is true (at least, i think it is). However, what may be true for one period of time may not be true for another. It may be true for me that going out on the weekend for a few beers and a good time is a good thing. But if I have a university essay due in the following day, then it is no longer true. Just because there was a law for a specific group of people thousands of years ago does not mean that the same rule applies today in exactly the same way. God was not wrong in the first half of the Bible, nor did he simply "change his mind". It has all been a part of the progressive plan of God. God originally instituted the laws of the Old covenant to bring us to one inescapable conclusion - that no one can reach God's standards. In effect, God created the Old Covenant to condemn humanity. By showing us the standards required for salvation, it was clear that no one could reach them and thus we were all doomed to failure.

This then progressed to the New Covenant, where God acted to save humanity from what they could not save themselves from. So do you continue to try to justify yourself through works (Old Covenant) and be doomed to failure, or do you rely on Jesus' sacrifice and Grace (New Testament) to save you.

This is not a contradiction or a "change" in God. This is God understanding that just because something was true at one time does not make it true for all time.

At least, that's how I see it.


Thanks, PA for the explanation.

It kind-of makes sense that the God-approved war-murder-genocide of one period was OK but hundreds of years later it became a bad thing thanks to God's avatar in the form of Jesus Christ appearing on Earth. Especially if the souls of the tortured, raped and murdered before Jesus' birth get the same chance for Heaven as those who actually heard of Jesus (how does that work...just askin'?).

If one assumes that souls are all that matter and the flesh is just a momentary blip in Eternity, all atrocities and Earthly horrors mean nothing.
If one doesn't assume so, however, the enormous weight of human suffering in the name of Christianity is as bad or worse than any torture/rape/genocide ever committed by Man <shudder>.

Blizno
Oops. Double post...
Lord Umbarger
QUOTE
You can't follow every rule in the Bible, obviously because rules changed when Jesus came and contradict rules of old...
But, what if you do not follow the teachings of Jesus? In that senario, it is possible to follow the laws of the Old Testement to a "T". Personally, I'm not sure that it is possible to follow the laws of the New Testement alone! Too many contradictions. Compare these two for instance: "Love thy brother as thyself" and "One must hate his father and mother to come to me". Both were uttered by Jesus.

By the way, good topic Riply.
Buddharat
Ok, this is sort of on the topic, but sort of off. I just don't want to start a whole thread to find this out and it seems to fit the best in here.

To anyone who knows the bible really well, what is the exact passage in the bible that says that homosexuality is wrong? I'm actually looking for the exact quote.

If anyone can help, that would be great. Thanks.
Lt_Ripley
the gentleman lived his life for a year following the laws. How he did it in depth is part of a book. ( I believe he's also the guy who did the living on McDonalds for a month.)

QUOTE
However, what may be true for one period of time may not be true for another.



ahhhhhhhhhh this is the crux. People 2000 years ago believed in things we wouldn't today. Religion , which begun with superstition as an explanation of things they couldn't comprehend , combined with lack of knowledge led to laws and beliefs/traditions we have shed over the years . And more shedding is to come as we grow. Hopefully one day 'love God and one another ' will be attainable as we do.
BlueZone
QUOTE(northwest @ Sep 22 2007, 06:58 PM) *
I think the man just embarrassed him self, both from perspective of an atheist and a believer.


I don't think the guy embarrassed himself. Given the amount of clout the Bible has in our culture it's interesting that someone actually stopped to read it carefully and obey it. I should think everyone who came in contact with him over the course of the year would suddenly realize that they pick and chose what they want to obey. A refresher course in non-hypocrisy.


Leonardo
QUOTE(northwest @ Sep 22 2007, 11:58 PM) *
You can't follow every rule in the Bible, obviously because rules changed when Jesus came and contradict rules of old, and a christian should follow Jesus, not Jewish law.
You can live both by "eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek" at the same time, these are two different philosophies.

I think the man just embarrassed him self, both from perspective of an atheist and a believer.


northwest,

Is Jesus the Son of God? Is he a separate deity to God, or is he an aspect of God - part of the Christian Trinity?

If he is an aspect of God then all the edicts issued by God in the OT are also edicts issued by Jesus, and vice versa. There is no distinction in God.
Blizno
QUOTE(Leonardo @ Sep 23 2007, 12:48 AM) *
northwest,

Is Jesus the Son of God? Is he a separate deity to God, or is he an aspect of God - part of the Christian Trinity?

If he is an aspect of God then all the edicts issued by God in the OT are also edicts issued by Jesus, and vice versa. There is no distinction in God.


Agreed. To say that we can ignore the OT because God changed His mind makes no sense. God is omniscient, yes? That means that God knew from the beginning of time everything that will ever happen. It's not possible that He would change His mind. What he knew after the NT he knew even before the start of the OT.
northwest
QUOTE(Leonardo @ Sep 23 2007, 06:48 AM) *
northwest,

Is Jesus the Son of God? Is he a separate deity to God, or is he an aspect of God - part of the Christian Trinity?

If he is an aspect of God then all the edicts issued by God in the OT are also edicts issued by Jesus, and vice versa. There is no distinction in God.



If you are asking me what I believe, then I'd say Jesus is a high angel incarnated as human on a very special job (as being the Lamb).
He is a song of god, because all angels are sons of god. I don't know why some keep saying he is the ONLY son of god, when "sons of god"
is a phrase used in Bible too.
And whether he is an aspect of God, yes, but so are all those who work for him, even humans.

In a nutshell , I'd say Jesus is an angel who asked of Father to be the "attorney" of human beings, and has been the absolute protector
of everyone who calls for him, or god in general.

The Trinity is symbolic I think, and you could describe god with a duality too, or with 4 aspects, or 7 or 40 depending on what
you are trying to express, what kind of point you are going to make.
Just like Hindus divided their God into much more aspects than just 3.

And also, I know you didn't ask, but since I'm talking about my beliefs:
Do I think YHWH is the Father the supreme god? I think Jews have attributed that name to both the Father and to some other things.
The Jewish god, was just that, a Jewish god, but he was in service of supreme god, just as Jesus was.
I think, in a way Jesus replaced YHWH for Jews, but also for others, but both are not the supreme god.
YHWH was a just but very strict god of vengence, while Jesus has become the god of forgiveness and mercy
Both are aspects of supreme god, but neither is THE supreme god.
Avinash_Tyagi
QUOTE
Just like Hindus divided their God into much more aspects than just 3.


That's only the Smartist branch of Hinduism, don't you guys do any studying whatsoever, there are 6 major schools of Hindu philosophy and many branches within each school, Samrta is only one branch of the Vedanta school
northwest
So what? The point remains
Avinash_Tyagi
QUOTE(northwest @ Sep 23 2007, 06:12 PM) *
So what? The point remains


There are branches of Hinduism that don't believe in a God period, they are atheist

So the point is false
northwest
no it's not false.

do you even know what the point was?

The point was that god can be divided into aspects, and it doesn't matter if it's 3 or 4 or 5 or 100.
I was using example of different aspects of god in Hinduism (but as you insist, I'll say in some branches of Hinduism)

Blizno
QUOTE(BlueZone @ Sep 23 2007, 12:09 AM) *
I don't think the guy embarrassed himself. Given the amount of clout the Bible has in our culture it's interesting that someone actually stopped to read it carefully and obey it. I should think everyone who came in contact with him over the course of the year would suddenly realize that they pick and chose what they want to obey. A refresher course in non-hypocrisy.


I couldn't agree more. I doubt that more than a few American Christians have read the Bible at length. I've read posts from Believers that couldn't possibly be farther from the teachings of Christ.
One Believer raged his thirst for murderous revenge (I forget against whom). If there is one single teaching of Christ more important than all the others, it is love your enemies. That means no revenge. Ever.
The quote, "Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord", means that God reserves revenge for Himself. Nobody else is permitted to seek vengeance because vengeance belongs only to God.

I've read lots of posts from Believers spitting venom and hatred. That is very much not Christian.
I've also read posts from other Believers wishing peace and joy upon all who disagree with them, so clearly quite a few Believers actually do "get it".

Jesus lived a simple life serving the lowest of those around him. He dropped to his knees to wash the feet of beggars. Many televangelists on US Sunday morning TV say they'll mail you a pamphlet teaching you how to ask Jesus to bring untold money into your life...for a "gift" of twenty dollars or more. That nonsense has nothing to do with Christianity, it's pure medicine-show charlatanism. Yet still, millions of Christians seem to think that their religion is all about huge cars and expensive houses.
Christianity is about sacrifice, love and, often, suffering. It is never about affluence or power.
Avinash_Tyagi
QUOTE(northwest @ Sep 23 2007, 06:23 PM) *
no it's not false.

do you even know what the point was?

The point was that god can be divided into aspects, and it doesn't matter if it's 3 or 4 or 5 or 100.
I was using example of different aspects of god in Hinduism (but as you insist, I'll say in some branches of Hinduism)



Well if some branches consider it zero then you can't divide it, but fair enough
Blizno
QUOTE(northwest @ Sep 23 2007, 04:04 PM) *
If you are asking me what I believe, then I'd say Jesus is a high angel incarnated as human on a very special job (as being the Lamb).
He is a song of god, because all angels are sons of god. I don't know why some keep saying he is the ONLY son of god, when "sons of god"
is a phrase used in Bible too.
And whether he is an aspect of God, yes, but so are all those who work for him, even humans.

In a nutshell , I'd say Jesus is an angel who asked of Father to be the "attorney" of human beings, and has been the absolute protector
of everyone who calls for him, or god in general.

The Trinity is symbolic I think, and you could describe god with a duality too, or with 4 aspects, or 7 or 40 depending on what
you are trying to express, what kind of point you are going to make.
Just like Hindus divided their God into much more aspects than just 3.

And also, I know you didn't ask, but since I'm talking about my beliefs:
Do I think YHWH is the Father the supreme god? I think Jews have attributed that name to both the Father and to some other things.
The Jewish god, was just that, a Jewish god, but he was in service of supreme god, just as Jesus was.
I think, in a way Jesus replaced YHWH for Jews, but also for others, but both are not the supreme god.
YHWH was a just but very strict god of vengence, while Jesus has become the god of forgiveness and mercy
Both are aspects of supreme god, but neither is THE supreme god.


Fascinating! It never occurred to me to think that YHWH could be just one incarnation of God, Zoroaster a much older incarnation, Jesus another incarnation, Allah a fairly recent incarnation, perhaps the Buddha another incarnation, etc.

Thanks! You've given me something new to think about.

Speaking of Zoroaster, I found this from a site:
"The Basis of Zarathustra’s Teachings:
Zarathusthra seems to have become convinced that all events of the world are based on cause and effects. He has, therefore, based his teachings on three principles: good reflection, good word, and good deed. He was wise enough to recognize that all the motives of human beings are based on action and reaction. Because, the receiver of every good deed in this world will react accordingly with the good behavior. Therefore, in the realm of interaction, if human beings act favorably, they receive favorable reaction and vice versa. In this regard, if a person robs another one, he should not be surprised when some day he will be robbed as well. Zarathustra never imagined praising a God who is a bribe taker - the one who is bribed by worship and then he rewards his worshiper with a part of paradise. The Almighty God is not a dealer, he is neither a buyer nor a seller and does not need also to be flattered by his creatures. The almighty God of Zarathustra is the initiator of justice, kindness, and truthfulness and guides his creatures to the same principles. That is why Zarathustra has based his philosophy on good reflection, good word, and good deed. In Zarathustra’s philosophy, everybody has the liberty to choose the right way, out of his/her good reflection and since human wisdom is more related to good reflection, thus the followers of Zoroastrianism should precede by each other to the propagation of science and education. In this manner, Zoroastrianism becomes the forerunner of knowledge and enlightenment."

Zoroastrianism appears to describe, in clear, simple terms, the best moral teachings of any and all of the religions that came after it. Forget the Ten Commandments, especially the first ones that are there purely for YHWH's self-protection. Zarathustra described good human morality with three basic principles: good reflection (love your neighbors), good word (bear not false witness) and good deed (act with love and generosity). What more is there to say?
Blizno
QUOTE(Avinash_Tyagi @ Sep 23 2007, 04:10 PM) *
That's only the Smartist branch of Hinduism, don't you guys do any studying whatsoever, there are 6 major schools of Hindu philosophy and many branches within each school, Samrta is only one branch of the Vedanta school


Avinash, I (an American atheist) had no idea that there was more than one branch of Hinduism. It's not surprising since Hinduism is ancient and is a pivotal religion for a huge part of the world, but I didn't know this fact. Please teach those of us far away from the birthplace of civilization. Thank you for your generosity.
Avinash_Tyagi
QUOTE(blizno @ Sep 23 2007, 07:45 PM) *
Avinash, I (an American atheist) had no idea that there was more than one branch of Hinduism. It's not surprising since Hinduism is ancient and is a pivotal religion for a huge part of the world, but I didn't know this fact. Please teach those of us far away from the birthplace of civilization. Thank you for your generosity.


Here's a quick place to look for information

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_philosophy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nastika
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(blizno @ Sep 23 2007, 01:19 PM) *
Thanks, PA for the explanation.

It kind-of makes sense that the God-approved war-murder-genocide of one period was OK but hundreds of years later it became a bad thing thanks to God's avatar in the form of Jesus Christ appearing on Earth. Especially if the souls of the tortured, raped and murdered before Jesus' birth get the same chance for Heaven as those who actually heard of Jesus (how does that work...just askin'?).

If one assumes that souls are all that matter and the flesh is just a momentary blip in Eternity, all atrocities and Earthly horrors mean nothing.
If one doesn't assume so, however, the enormous weight of human suffering in the name of Christianity is as bad or worse than any torture/rape/genocide ever committed by Man <shudder>.
You are changing the topic. I wasn't talking about war and genocide, either approved by God or not. I was talking about the Old Testament Laws. That is what this thread is about afterall. This thread is discussing following the Laws as dictated in the Old Testament. Now you're dragging the topic into an aside into God's actions and decisions in bringing floods or plagues, or commanding Israel to conquer nations. That is a different topic altogether, and has a different response. Unless it becomes a topic of discussion, I'll leave it as that and say that it is off topic to the discussion of following the Old Testament Laws.

QUOTE(blizno @ Sep 24 2007, 07:50 AM) *
Agreed. To say that we can ignore the OT because God changed His mind makes no sense. God is omniscient, yes? That means that God knew from the beginning of time everything that will ever happen. It's not possible that He would change His mind. What he knew after the NT he knew even before the start of the OT.
Well, I gave you an explanation before and you either did not understand what I wrote or chose to ignore it. I'll try and explain it another way. God did not change his mind. This was his plan all along. It's not as if God instituted the Old Testament laws and then thought to himself, "oh crap - there's no way these guys can follow all the rules. I'm going to have to think of a Plan B". God reveals himself progressively throughout time. He revealed himself first to Abraham who knew very little about God except that he was God and had made a covenant with him. I won't go into detail, but God reveals himself further as the history of Israel progresses. Then approximately 2000 years ago, God revealed himself fully through the person of Jesus Christ. The final piece in God's puzzle had been put into place. The Laws were fulfilled (not done away with). The New Covenant was instituted - and with it, a new outlook on the Old Testament.

In short, God did not "change his mind". God may have helped us understand him better as he revealed himself more fully. But this was all God's plan from the very beginning.
sede-x-teh-bomb
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Sep 24 2007, 02:20 AM) *
You are changing the topic. I wasn't talking about war and genocide, either approved by God or not. I was talking about the Old Testament Laws. That is what this thread is about afterall. This thread is discussing following the Laws as dictated in the Old Testament. Now you're dragging the topic into an aside into God's actions and decisions in bringing floods or plagues, or commanding Israel to conquer nations. That is a different topic altogether, and has a different response. Unless it becomes a topic of discussion, I'll leave it as that and say that it is off topic to the discussion of following the Old Testament Laws.

Well, I gave you an explanation before and you either did not understand what I wrote or chose to ignore it. I'll try and explain it another way. God did not change his mind. This was his plan all along. It's not as if God instituted the Old Testament laws and then thought to himself, "oh crap - there's no way these guys can follow all the rules. I'm going to have to think of a Plan B". God reveals himself progressively throughout time. He revealed himself first to Abraham who knew very little about God except that he was God and had made a covenant with him. I won't go into detail, but God reveals himself further as the history of Israel progresses. Then approximately 2000 years ago, God revealed himself fully through the person of Jesus Christ. The final piece in God's puzzle had been put into place. The Laws were fulfilled (not done away with). The New Covenant was instituted - and with it, a new outlook on the Old Testament.

In short, God did not "change his mind". God may have helped us understand him better as he revealed himself more fully. But this was all God's plan from the very beginning.

and as he becomes further outdated my money is on god "revealing himself further" we will find him conveniently not so apposed to previous social/religious taboos and on and on we will go.
Paranoid Android
Actually, since Jesus' resurrection, there has been no further revelation from God. It was the fulfillment. I'd be very wary of anyone claiming that God reveals himself further to us.
sede-x-teh-bomb
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Sep 24 2007, 02:48 AM) *
Actually, since Jesus' resurrection, there has been no further revelation from God. It was the fulfillment. I'd be very wary of anyone claiming that God reveals himself further to us.


lol no people are not nearly as gullible as they were say... 2000 odd years ago.

Blizno
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Sep 23 2007, 08:20 PM) *
You are changing the topic. I wasn't talking about war and genocide, either approved by God or not. I was talking about the Old Testament Laws. That is what this thread is about afterall. This thread is discussing following the Laws as dictated in the Old Testament. Now you're dragging the topic into an aside into God's actions and decisions in bringing floods or plagues, or commanding Israel to conquer nations. That is a different topic altogether, and has a different response. Unless it becomes a topic of discussion, I'll leave it as that and say that it is off topic to the discussion of following the Old Testament Laws.

Well, I gave you an explanation before and you either did not understand what I wrote or chose to ignore it. I'll try and explain it another way. God did not change his mind. This was his plan all along. It's not as if God instituted the Old Testament laws and then thought to himself, "oh crap - there's no way these guys can follow all the rules. I'm going to have to think of a Plan B". God reveals himself progressively throughout time. He revealed himself first to Abraham who knew very little about God except that he was God and had made a covenant with him. I won't go into detail, but God reveals himself further as the history of Israel progresses. Then approximately 2000 years ago, God revealed himself fully through the person of Jesus Christ. The final piece in God's puzzle had been put into place. The Laws were fulfilled (not done away with). The New Covenant was instituted - and with it, a new outlook on the Old Testament.

In short, God did not "change his mind". God may have helped us understand him better as he revealed himself more fully. But this was all God's plan from the very beginning.


Thank you for trying to help me understand, but it's still very difficult for me.
The early God scourges the Earth again and again, condemning millions to death including infants and babes-in-the-womb, and then suddenly He is all about love, peace and understanding?
As a natural history of the planet's cycles of flood and drought, fine. If an intelligence chooses, however, to subject His creations to these horrors...<shudder>...
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(blizno @ Sep 24 2007, 01:28 PM) *
Thank you for trying to help me understand, but it's still very difficult for me.
No worries, I hope I'm being of help to you thumbsup.gif

QUOTE(blizno @ Sep 24 2007, 01:28 PM) *
The early God scourges the Earth again and again, condemning millions to death including infants and babes-in-the-womb, and then suddenly He is all about love, peace and understanding?
I see what you are saying, but that is not what this topic is about. We're talking about the laws of the Old Testament, not the actions of God. To answer the question would take us off topic. It doesn't have anything to do with God "changing his mind" as you put it, by instituting the New Covenant as a result of Jesus' death and resurrection. Is this part, at the least, a little clearer? Does it make sense what I am saying about God not "changing his mind"?
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(blizno @ Sep 24 2007, 01:28 PM) *
The early God scourges the Earth again and again, condemning millions to death including infants and babes-in-the-womb, and then suddenly He is all about love, peace and understanding?
*Yes, I know I'm quoting the same post as above*

Against my better judgement, I'm going to post a reply to this question. Hopefully it doesn't take us too far off topic. Remember that we're still supposed to be discussing Laws, not God's actions.

In short though, there is this perception in the modern world that the God of the Old Testament is a wrathful, vengeful God who is quick to anger and condemnation. By contrast there is a perception that the God of the New Testament is a God full of mercy and grace who wouldn't hurt a teddy-bear but rather sit around a campfire and sing Kumbaiyah. The truth is that neither of these perceptions is accurate. God in the Old Testament has a lot more love and forgiveness than many give credit for. And God in the New Testament does have his vengeful side.

In the Old Testament, God actively took a role in guiding the people of Israel to accomplish his plans. As such, God as Judge occasionally makes Judgement and either passes it himself or calls a person or group of person's to carry it out. Within this context, it is hard to look beyond that and see that this is only one part of the Bible. Judgement is only one section of the Old Testament, and is shadowed by other concepts that repeat throughout the Bible. In fact, there is a pattern that continuously repeats throughout the entire Bible. The pattern goes: SIN - JUDGEMENT - REPENTANCE - GRACE. In short, humans sin. This is the root cause of all that happens to humans. At no time is a person punished/judged for no reason. Then God calls his judgement onto Israel. After a time, Israel turns and repents and for a short time, they follow God. God then, being a forgiving God, brings Grace. But inevitably Israel sins again, and the pattern starts all over again. No matter how many times Israel turns against God, he always perseveres with them. They have turned away over and over and over and over, and God still loves them enough to forgive them every single time.

In the New Testament, this pattern has not changed. The only difference is that now God does not actively take a role in events in Israel's history. This is because his plan has been fulfilled and finished through Jesus Christ. And without that active role in history, God is no longer there to command us to bring judgement. In this absence, Jesus commanded us to "Judge not" (or condemn not). We are commanded to turn the other cheek, and not seek vengeance.

People mistake this as God's attitude changing from one of vengeance to one of love. BUT - and here's the thing - God still promises that exact same punishment and judgement. We are all under the death penalty for our sins. Everything we do wrong, God has promised us that we will be judged accordingly. So that Judging God of the Old Testament is still very much present.

The difference, if you can call it that, between the Old Testament and the New Testament is that the judgement we will receive today is not as immediate as the Judgement in the Old Testament. But make no mistake, the Bible promises that this same judgement will be coming to us eventually. We will all be judged for our sins.

That may shatter the preconception that many have about God in the New Testament turning into a lovey-dovey cuddly teddy-bear, and I hope it also changes the perception about God in the Old Testament also.

Does that help you?
Repoman
QUOTE(blizno @ Sep 22 2007, 10:34 PM) *
Wait...the infallible God of the Bible was...wrong...during the first half? He changed His mind and we should ignore and disobey the first half but utterly believe and obey the second half...why?The apologists who try to pick the happy-fun parts out of the Bible while skipping over the horrific, global-genocide parts of the Bible are disobeying the Word of God.

Exactly! And how could anyone worship such a "loving god" that willfully and maliciously slaughtered every baby on the planet - drowned them and their families!?!?!? What sort of evil, despicable god does that? And smarmy little hypcrite b******* try to keep a straight face while they say "OOOOOohhh, but they were EVIL and so god (you rock god!) smote them in their evil faces and drowned them right smartly!"

*EEEEEAAAACK* It makes me feel unclean even thinking about that *&#@%@# religion (shudder)
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Sep 23 2007, 10:48 PM) *
Actually, since Jesus' resurrection, there has been no further revelation from God. It was the fulfillment. I'd be very wary of anyone claiming that God reveals himself further to us.


if god had been wiser god would have revealed god self now instead of a bunch of superstitious bronze aged people till jesus.

it's too dismissable. an earthquake ? God . volcano erupts ? God. Heck the earth was flat too !

god doesn't speak anymore because god never really did. superstition says god did.
Azmr
You'd get capital punishment or life inprisonment for murdering, raping, pillaging and many other countless phsycopathic criminal acts.

1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

And.... Various.

SOURCE



If you want Chapters and verses for the below, pick whichever and dont bulk it (they are long).

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Kill Witches
Kill Homosexuals
Kill Fortunetellers
Death for Hitting Dad
Death for Cursing Parents
Death for Adultery
Death for Fornication
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Kill Nonbelievers
Kill False Prophets
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
Death for Blasphemy
Infidels and Gays Should Die
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

And many more.

SOURCE

As you can see above, you'll be regretting the day you were born, rotting in the prison cell. grin2.gif
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