In discussing the concept of an omniscient God we often see the case of people debating why is it that God allowed Adam and Eve to be in the garden with the tree if he KNEW that they would eat from the tree.

Basically it comes across like a set up.


And the argument to that has been FREE WILL




http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm#chr

So basically God won't intervene when it comes to morality. He will guide us but its up to us to find our way.


Buuuuut

I found an interesting part of Genesis that seems to suggest otherwise


Genesis 20 tells the story of Abimelech and how God stopped him from sinning. So how is it that sometimes God intervenes and changes the outcome but when its little babies getting murdered in Rwanda he's "hands off"?




http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=31;

im gonna go out on a limb and say its becuase gods not real.


anyhow
carry on.

Off the top of my head, I cannot recall ANY part of the bible that actually supports the concept of free will. The book is full of phrases like "god caused..."
"god commanded..." "god made it so...."
In Exodus, it evens states that "God hardened Pharoahs heart" in order that the slaves NOT be released.

"gods" idea of free will is alot like my girlfriends idea of free will
arms folded. back to me. chin in the air.. YEAH sure you can go out friday night of course you can i have NO problem with that at all GO OUT AND HAVE A GREAT TIME!!!
but you know very well the conciquences that come with the deal.

god really needs to grow up and make some friends.. for real.

The concept of free will, or ability to choose, is intrinsic both to the bible history and to our relationship with god. Without free will neither would make sense. We chose to disobey gods wishes.He always knew this was a statistical probability, but it was not fore ordained or pre destined. Out of all the worlds and people's, god created, as far as we are aware, this is the only place where beings chose to go against the plan. (apart from the one third of angels who instigated the rebellion and were isolated on earth)

God still offers us a free choice through the intercession of jesus, but interestingly very few people take up this option.

After sin entered the world, god made laws to protect his people as far as possible, but these met with limited success, given humanity's propensity for continured disobedience. Generally, this was a learning experience for humanity, but more importantly for the inhabitants of all the other world's who saw what happened when a race disobeyed its creator's rules. Some would even argue that it was a new experience foer god, and thus a learning experience for him too.

Any way, in general while setting parameters and rules for safe behaviour, and the preservation of society, god allowed people to execrise free will. The many evils which have ecompassed the world since then are not god's fault but the failure of mankind to choose wisely.

Finally in some cases, on a personal or national level god, who can see the multiple potentialities of each event in time chooses to intervene physically.Often he gives specific or general warnings to the population first in a final effort to change their behaviour (the flood and the destruction of sodom and gomorah.)

Some of these interventions are destructive, but many are constructive, such as the restoration of fertility to women and the provision of manna for the israelites.

God continues to intervene directly and through his 'angels". He provides specific visionary warnings to people, of coming events, which may effect them or others. He provides both long term and "just in time" warnings to people to avoid death and injury. He even physically intervenes with manipulation of real materials energy time and space, to protect peole or ensure his ends are met.

I know these things happen because all have happened to me. I have read many similar experiences by many people in modern times. My belief is that the miracles and stories of god's intervention from religious writings like the bible are also accounts of real people and real experiences they had with a very real god. It is not suprising, however, especially in modern times, that most people, even some of those who are the recipients of god's miracles refuse to see or are unable to recognise the hand of god in these interventions.

For some reason god is not as good at outlining his specific intentions for people, as he is at acting on them. ( Or perhaps this is my personal failing that I cannot fully understand why god has continually intervened in my life to warn, guide and protect me)

That seems to be a pretty accurate representation of god's approach, but sometimes, he ; loses your keys" when you have too much to drink, whispers in your ear, 'That sexy young thing is just too good to be true," or even causes the drunk driver of a car hurtling at you to miss you by a few centimetres, perhaps because he whispers in the driver's ear or even in your own ear ,a warning micro seconds before impact.

If you think carefully about what your post says, you may see that another interpretation is that god is waiting for YOU to grow up but, as a good parent should, he is also doing everything he can to protect you in the meantime. Even from the consequences of your own choices.
Your girlfriend does indeed sound a lot like god. She gives you free choice, and clear warnings of potential consequences for behaviour at the same time.
This is perfectly normal (and expected) behaviour from girlfriends, and also from wives.

Hmm....We have free will, but God is still Sovereign. It's like when parents give their child independence, but when the child abuses the independence, or the parents has something in mind, the independence is taken away. Here's a good question for you though True. Instead of asking Christians why God didn't help the people of Rwanda, ask yourself "What did I do to help the people of Rwanda?" There's no need to play the blame game. All people could have done something about it. If you did do something, good for you and may HaShem bless you. If you didn't...well, you can't really say anything then.

No thats not the interpretation at all, god is not wispering in anybodies eat partner. people lose keys, it sometimes is nothing but inconvenient, other times it turns out for the best.
Fatal accedents happen
sometimes just almost happen
it has nothing to do with god, all chance, unless you as a person are making more out of it.
the only way my girlfriend is like god is that they are insecure, begs for attention, wants everything their way, wants no other one before them, and wants a rather decent chunk of my income.

That is your personal experience, upon which you have built your belief systems and your world view. It is NOT my personal experience, nor that of others. God has physically and indisputably intervened in my life on numerous occasions, several of which have directly saved my life, others have indirectly saved it, and others have altered it from potentially dangerous potentialities to more benign ones. Some of the interventions have been aural warnings, some visual. Some have been accurate prophetic visions of future events. Sometimes god just changes the "nature of reality" if that is what it takes.

I think you see me interpreting such things as traditional miracles, as "making more of it", while I just accept them at face value. While i do not understand them, i know the experiences are just as real, and have as real an effect on my life, as everyday contacts with people at work or family.
Your interpretation of your girlfriend's needs, and her relationship with you, is interesting and worthy of reflection.

Excuse me.

Anyone here have biblical evidence to support "free will"?

So far I have a lot of personal interpretation, but have not seen any direct evidence. And please, try to keep your evidence to the bible/torah, and not the writings of a latterer individual 'interpreting' the book.

The simplest and earliest one is in the garden of eden. God laid down the rules but did not prevent adam and eve from breaking them. In the end he placed no limits on their free will, despite what he knew would be tragic consequences. The other " biggie" is christ's sacrifice. Not only was this an exercise of free will in itself, but it is made explicitly clear that all one has to do is accept this sacrifice (ie make a choice) to regain immortal life. The bible states that everyone has the ability to exercise this choice, although for some (too attached to wealth/ want to go their own way) the choice will not be an easy one.

If you want to argue that ones personal experiences limit the extent of free will you may, but in fact, we are granted free will, even if the choices we make are not always easy or straight forward.

free will is an illusion as is choice. it needs to be to live a human experience. But in the big picture there is no choice or free will.


"All people living on the Earth will worship [The Devil], except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to [Jesus]."
Revelations 13:8 [NIV]

"Consider God's handiwork; who can straighten what He hath made crooked?"

Ecclesiastes 7:13 (old testament)

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_freewill.html

and of course

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7

“Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?” Amos 3:6

“Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?” Lamentations 3:38

“And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.” Exodus 4:21

“And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.” Exodus 7:3



according to the bible all things good and evil are caused by god for god's purpose. that would include our actions. therefore there is no free will. you have no choice.

If you acknowledge God is all knowing , there again there can be no free will. if all your steps are known before you make them they are not your own . Your own would only be known by you. A guess by anyone or anything else , even God. But God doesn't guess.

The fact that the bible won't make sense without it points more towards the bible not making sense rather than us needed to apply the bandaid to make it work.

I'll be honest, I never understood free-will in this context, and avoid this argument like the plague. It's almost like free-will is an excuse, or a cop-out.

"Oh yes, God is all powerful, Let go, Let God, He is in control of all, blah blah blah...except of course the sinners, who are evil because of free-will..."

See the logic there? I don't get it. How can God be what the Christian bible says He is, and how can you choose to follow God, and yet when something happens like a kid gets run over by a drunk driver, it's Gods will. Or was it the drunk drivers free-will? Did God let him have free-will? Why would he let a person make such a bad choice? Did the kid deserve it? Did the parents? Who answers for this? If it's God, then the drunk has no responsibility. If it's the guy, then he must have free-will, but I still can't get past God allowing that to happen. I could spin in circles for hours.

I have studied this free-will thing quite a bit, but honestly cannot reconcile it with any common sense approach to biblical teachings.

Well, rather than having a scripture posting match I would say IMO that free will is biblical, but yet there seems to be boundaries within in it. For example in Genesis God allowed Adam to name certain animals which would take free will. But in the biblical scheme of things we see a concept of repentance like in Malachi, God asking for Israel to return to him and to forsake the pagan Gods they set up, this would be an act of free will and choice would it not? So, I do agree with what you posted in some respects because at times God does seem to intervene like with the story of Jonah. He clearly did not want to do what God asked of him and God got his attention in a peculiar manner, so it seems there was really no choice for Jonah.

Because he doesn't exist. And if he did exist, he would be an evil maniac that no sane person would ever willingly worship.