Why would Jesus allow his religion (Christianity) to become so fractured, and dysfunctional?

Is he lazy, just not interested or perhaps on a long vacation. It seems to me that Christ would have made his religions rules and beliefs crystal clear, not open to the thousands of wayward interpretations that have resulted in the splintering, infighting and down right un-Christian like behavior of the Christian religion.

I agree. Why must there be so many interpretations of every single passage in the bible? Wouldn't an intelligent God make his holy book crystal clear? Look at how modern humans struggle to find the "right interpretation" of each passage... now imagine primitive people.

What do you base this opinion on?

real life

The hundreds of different religious sects that all debate about the true meanings.

it's hard to say whether the bible is the true wording of christ or not. the roman empire took hold of the bible and changed passages to their suiting.


basically this is why the church system is so powerful, they use fear tactics to gain more followers, which equals more 10 percent payers equals more power to church.


i know for a fact the way christianity and other religions describe god and his ways are false. God does not create people simply to see who believes him (saved) and does not(gooes to hell)

YA what he said!!

Read my statement again, I think the basis for my opinion very clear.

Its what is called free choice. We are here to learn certain lession and hopefully we will find them so that it will carry over to the next life. I know that when I think or do bad things will comes back to me money fold. However, if I do good things then that comes back to me many times. How you reet is what you sol. God knows who you are before hand and the life you are given to to improve yourself and not do anything bad (if you can help it). He doesn't make mistakes in who or what you are because God knows it all before hand. At least this is how I interpret it for myself and I believe it to be so because it happened to me many times until I learned the lesson.

Jesus never created a religion. He came to die for our sins so that we could have eternal life. Humanity has since then created doctrines and organized institutions that claim to speak in Jesus' name. But this was not Jesus' mission. It was man's sinfulness that has led to this.

I don't think you can blame Jesus for the actions of organizations that have cropped up as a result. Here is the difference between Personal Religion and Organized Religion -

Personal Religion takes a large view of the Bible. It takes the main themes from the Bible and accepts them. Then there are the smaller themes that have no bearing on the way one lives their life as a Christian. These may not necessarily agree with each other. Two individuals can hold different opinions on these minor issues and still be considered Christian. If we all attended churches in which all believed EXACTLY the same thing, I would surmise that we would all be attending churches with a membership of 1.

Organized Religion may or may not hold the same main themes. But they also have to set all those minor differences into stone. Organized Religion is a business, or perhaps a better metaphor here would be a club. It is a club, and it has specific beliefs and values to which it adheres. These beliefs are set out in a "Club Charter". In Organized Religion, this club charter is called "Doctrine". Every little issue in the Bible needs to be set into stone and made concrete. Therefore, if two churches believed exactly the same thing, except for one very minor point of law, then they must split and hold two different organizations with different Club Charters, because a Club Charter cannot have different rules about the the same issue.

I know I probably could have written this post much more succinctly, but I felt that I needed to expand on the issues here. Jesus came to save people, not start an organized religion. It is humanity that has led to the situation we have now with so many different beliefs. I don't think that is Jesus' fault.

~ Regards, PA

Whether jesus intended it to be interpreted like that or not - Any biblical literists should take a good look at themselves and read up on the 101 Biblical contradictions ..

You mean the 101 Biblical contradictions found by people who don't actually study the Bible, but just look at passages and verses and say "Aha!" never bothering to do real research?

funny how you put it that way...it's kinda true, jesus's intentions could have been innocent true... the church turns it around heh....all coming together....never going to church!

"101 ways satan has screwed mankind in believing false interpretations of the bible." NOW thats a book....

Hey, I'll be the first to claim that the VAST majority of people who consider themselves Christians have never read the Bible, much less studied it. Additionally, an even larger majority of those who are not Christians and who use the Bible to beat up on Christians and their beliefs fall into that same category of having absolutely no idea of what they are talking about.

If this is what jesus intended or not is regardless!! We have to look at what we have at the present day, the self admitted ridiculous institution of religion(christianity in this case), and we dont even know if jesus even existed or not?! there are so many "interpretations" on a book that has been interpreted and reinterpreted over and over again by nobody really knows who alot of huge assumptions must be made even before one takes a leap of faith lol.
so there can be no true interpretation to the bible for there will always be 10 more to take its place.
to even claim you have in your grips the true meaning of what god or jesus ment to say puts you in the same basket as any fundamentalist, moderate, or cult leader! its the same bloody thing.

No, I was actually thinking along the lines of people who read and study the bible and have no qualms about pointing out contradictions. I bet true could!

I don't have all the answers. I do not claim to have all the answers. If I could know everything there was to know about God, then I would be God. But I don't, and I'm not. BUT, I have read enough of the Bible to at least make a somewhat informed opinion on the matter. Whenever there is contention in a passage, I am happy to hear other interpretations from other people. And believe it or not, as long as it is contextually backed up then even if I don't agree with it, I do accept it from the others. It's happened before and it will happen again, because humans are humans and in a book as big as the Bible there are bound to be differences of opinion.

That does not (imo) invalidate the whole thing.

There are lots of potential, credible and logical answers to this question, if you are actually asking why did/does god allow people to find their own interpretations of him and thus worship him in different ways. First, you have to examine the nature of god, using all the available evidence. He has free will. He chose to create us as autonomous beings with free will, knowing there were was a potential for tragedy, but also knowing that the other alternative was to create slaves.
He is a loving god. he lays down rules. He talks to leaders and explains those rules. He outlines the consequences of breaking the rules. etc etc. Sometimes he intervenes directly when humanity gets too far off track. How can you say he is on vacation? He is constantly working on people, through his writings and through genuine religious leaders of many faiths to alter individuals and humanity for the better. He still comes into individuals lives, in both physical and spiritual ways, to alter their lives and the lives of others around them

Now, his behaviour and nature are quite integrated, cohesive and logical, but they may not appear so to some people, because of the nature of humans, and because few have really studied his nature and his word. Before the fall, humans were a lot like god and angels, but once they chose to disobey him, and sin crept into the world, human nature changed. We became"sinful" (basically disobedient to god's word) but a lot more than that.

If you look at the 10 commandments and the other biblical injunctions you can identify the aspects of human nature which god has continually worked to modify; Lust; envy, greed, sloth etc etc. So, while gods laws were quite clear, human nature chose to interpret them so they didn't really apply to any individual in question.

People tend to blame god (even though he is working through previously outlined parameters) for not undoing all the evil which sin and humanity bring into the world. The only way he could do this is to take away our free will and make us robotic servants. Instead, he has chosen to give everyone a second chance. Knowing that only a few will choose this option, even though it is open to all, He says, "Take up the sacrifice of jesus, listen to his teachings, follow my precepts, and you can still have eternal life"

But for reasons best known to each individual, many refuse to believe, and even many of those who believe, find it hard to listen to god's will ,and even some of those, find it difficult to maintain the discipline necessary for salvation.

Yet god has said he will not ask any thing of which we are not capable, and he will give us the strength, and the skills, to succeed if we have faith and make the effort.

This became a little more of a ramble than I intended but basically the answer to your question lies in the nature of humanity, but also within the nature of god's relationship with us, as individuals, and as a species.

Speaking personally, christianity is not disfunctional. It has empowered me and many people i know. It has doubtless made us better individuals and members of society than we would have been if we had never encountered the christian precepts , particularly its message of love. It contains important philosophical and social messages, which endure through the ages, despite the attempts by individuals to use it for personal gain, comfort, or power.

It is not the only such force on earth today, but it remains a significant one.

Particularly in the last century, the idea of individual's rights being more important than societies, and some attitudinal changes to ideas about crime and punishment have caused many (particularly those without a deep knowledge of god) to question his rules and judgements, particularly those in the old testament.

However, there is a counter argument that not only were those laws and rules essential for the safety of society and individuals in the past. but that even in todays more "robust 'societies we run the risk of breaking down the structure of our society by abandoning them. Freedom is a great ideal, but its ultimate expression is anarchy, in which the protections offered by god's laws to the most vulnerable in society will not exist.

Yeah, this is what bothers me most about how some religious people come off. They give you , "here's how it is - I KNOW - you don't. I won't back up my statement with any facts or even the logic that led to my conclusion, but believe me, I KNOW - you don't."

It's frustrating to discuss religion with someone who takes this attitude, 'cause here's the thing. What if you're right? I mean what if you really DO know? Since we can't read each other's minds, there's no way to bring me to the understanding you have gained...

If this is the case, we can't discuss. We can only argue. It's like when you were a little kid and someone did the whole "I made you say that!!", "I made you say that, too!!" thing. When I was small, I'd end up standing in front of the teacher saying, "I'm pretty sure he made me hit him, just ask him...".

While both sides of the issue take this approach sometimes, all it does is annoy anyone being condescended to in such a manner. Think about it, how would it feel for someone to say, "Your father was a child-molester. I won't tell you why I know, but I KNOW." ?

Uhh...duh..I don't know man...could it like have something to do with a thing called RATIONAL THOUGHT ?

Where do we find this "dependable sources" for research ? :

We need someone to interpret it for us

Any misinterpretations of the bible are man's fault, not God's. This also goes for any perceived contradictions that exist in the bible. We have to consider that the perfect creator used imperfect humans to write a book in our own imperfect languages. It's a wonder we didn't screw it up even more so. We have the ten commandments and the necessary teachings of Jesus but with all these misinterpretations by all these religions, the true Christians will all agree on the basics:

Jesus makes it clear when asked:
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Mat 22:36 -40

As far as love and salvation is concerned:
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."Jhn 3:16
......and Jesus said,
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Jhn 14:6


To "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" means to follow his teachings and be obedient as best can be. ( Repent and sin no more )

God calls Christians to spread His good word even though some don't want to hear it. It's unfortunate that the extremists and some over zealous Christians sometimes make other Christians look bad by their actions.

This is what we, as humans, have to deal with and we have been fighting about it for thousands of years.

woopsy

Any misinterpretations of the bible are man's fault, not God's. That's right because MAN wrote it. That' easy to agree with...

This also goes for any perceived contradictions that exist in the bible. Perceived.........?

We have to consider that the perfect creator used imperfect humans to write a book in our own imperfect languages. ..Yeah GOD always is a good judge of character isn't he ya know Luci,Adam, Evey and all ? Perfect uses imperfect...now that's perfect thinking. I think i'll have some very uneducated,shroom eating man with dyslexia write my imperfect biography

It's a wonder we didn't screw it up even more so. We have the ten commandments and the necessary teachings of Jesus but with all these misinterpretations by all these religions, the true Christians will all agree on the basics: ....So which Christians are the "true christians"..............will all "true christians" please stand up.........wow..everyone is standing !!

Are we born knowing how to read? Is one able to do Calculus simply because one knows the multiplication tables?

The answer, obviously is "No." So, why is it so difficult to grasp that something as important as God's message to man requires more than simply glancing at a page?

I'm pretty sure the fact that Jesus is dead has a lot to do with the dysfunction in his religion. Not much he can do now is there?

Perhaps most of Christianity has just ignored the institutions set up to prevent schism.

By its' own definition , a Christian is a follower of Christ.

Thanks for all your interesting responses. However I don’t feel that the defenders of Christianity are answering my question directly.

Christ’s involvement in Christianity
Yes I agree that Jesus, as he is portrayed in the bible was not pro organized religion, if anything IMO he was anti organized religion. So therefore I do not think Jesus had much to do with Christianity other than some of his groupies used his name, and reputation without his blessing to start a religion, (if he existed at all). That said it seems to me that if you’re a Christian then it would be hard to discount Christ’s involvement (as PA did) in the Christian belief system. After all isn’t he the Christian god? As a god wouldn’t he have some editorial control over the humans that started his religion, as well as the ones that are currently preaching his word? Wouldn’t he demand/enforce clarity, consistency and standardization over all Christianity? After all our eternal souls are at stake, and if he loves us wouldn’t he want to give us all a clear road map to follow so we could all be together in the afterlife?

Dysfunctional Christianity
Unfortunately for Christians a clear road map to follow Jesus does not exist, and as a result there are more versions of the Christian religion than anyone can count. This inconsistency of doctrine has also led to what I see as a dysfunctional religious group. I think that Jesus (as a God) would not allow this fragmenting, and confusion to soil his good name. DISCLAIMER: I am not saying all individual Christian are dysfunctional just Christianity in general.

I will list a few basic examples of beliefs that every Christian should agree with below.

Free will. Free will has been mentioned in this topic a couple of times, and is a popular topic of discussion in this forum. Yet Christian can not agree if it even exists.

Christians can’t even agree who is Christian. Mormons are not considered Christians by Christians yet Mormons worship Christ. Isn’t that the very definition of Christian?

Christians believe the same basic things. If true Christians all agreed on the basics why would they need to split into different sects? I would also like to know which sect is the true one, and who decides that they are the true one?

Is Christ god? Is God Christ? Or is Christ the son of God? Or are God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit all the same guy, or are they different guys? I have heard them all. Wouldn’t such a fundamental question have an equally fundamental answer? After all I think it should be extremely important to know who the hell you’re worshiping. Christians shouldn’t be worshiping three gods should they?

Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heavens Gate, KKK, I could go on and on. I think Jesus would not allow these people to lead so many people astray in his holy name.

Religion for profit. Need I say more

I’m sure others can add to my list.

It just seems to me that Jesus would not allow all this man made corruption of his name and teachings to go on.

evancj:
Yes I agree that Jesus, as he is portrayed in the bible was not pro organized religion, if anything IMO he was anti organized religion.

SLL:
Really? So what is the church Jesus mentions in Matt 16 when he tells Peter "on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

evancj:
After all isn’t he the Christian god? As a god wouldn’t he have some editorial control over the humans that started his religion, as well as the ones that are currently preaching his word? Wouldn’t he demand/enforce clarity, consistency and standardization over all Christianity? After all our eternal souls are at stake, and if he loves us wouldn’t he want to give us all a clear road map to follow so we could all be together in the afterlife?

SLL:
The church. Not some invisible collection of all Christians, but a real organization with Christ as its head. If Christ is worth following, it has to be around somewhere, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

evancj:
I would also like to know which sect is the true one, and who decides that they are the true one?

SLL:
Why not let history be our judge? Early Christians were quite prolific writers and were writing in a time when Christianity was united. Ask them.

evancj:
Is Christ god? Is God Christ? Or is Christ the son of God? Or are God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit all the same guy, or are they different guys?

SLL:
Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes. The short answers to a very complicated topic.

evancj:
Wouldn’t such a fundamental question have an equally fundamental answer?

SLL:
I believe in one God the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven and sitteth at the right hand of the Father.
And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there shall be no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the prophets.
In one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church; I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins; I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Amen.

The Nicene Creed, written originally at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 and revised in 381 at the First Council of Constantinople and probably the best definition of a Christian.

Put simply, there is a battle between"good" and"evil" for the hearts of man. God/jesus could win this battle by doing as you suggest, but it is a battle which man must win individually for his own salvation. If there was direct intervention, we would not choose in our own hearts which master to follow. For us the battle would actually be lost, the moment god intervened.
Despite this, god does all he can within the rules to help us, from education, illustration to actual intervention which does not negate our ability to chose
Acoording to revelation, in the end there will be those who choose god and are saved, both historically, and in the end times. The majority will not,. and will perish. Biblically speaking there is also more than our own souls at stake here, the angels and the rest of the universe are watching to see how this unique situation is resolved. At some cost to ourselves( but due to our own actions) we have become an exemplary lesson for the rest of the universe in how not to behave, and what happens when creations go against their creator's purpose.

Thids argument means nothing ,of course, if you do not believe in god, but as a believer it is necessary to understand the totality of god's purpose for us.

God is the christian God, Jesus is God's son.

Good questions. First, I hope you don't mistake religion for faith. There are many different religions in the world, where many of these disagreements occur, but for the most part, they all agree, ( ...and I stress "for the most part") on the same faith.

As far as a clear road map? Do you mean so clear that we had specific instructions, step by step, so there was no mistake what we had to do? Do you mean Black and white guidelines so there would be no mistake as to what God wants us to do? How about if God himself would show himself everyday to us and tell us face to face exactly what he wants us to do? If we had that, there would be no denying that we would know God himself was clear about his points. In fact it would be foolish not to believe, now wouldn't it. We would be living under a dictator where we couldn't step out of line because there would be no doubt what the consequences are. We would have no choice but to follow. No free will.

But God didn't do that. He left us a letter of love for us to decide for ourselves. He left us his son's legacy to prove His love for us. He left us instructions, when read simply, even a child can understand the basics. ( as stated in my earlier post )



Wrong. We have the bible as a road map. Yes, there are dysfunctional members, ( just as in any other group), but Christianity as a whole is not.



These are just some of my thoughts and beliefs as a Christian in the hope that maybe I could answer some of your questions.

A few lifetimes ago, lies where made secretly. This modern age, man lies openly, and unsuprisingly gets away with it. What about scholars in the field of comparitive religions that claim the Holy Bible is littered with contradictions?

Your answer is "their biased". Open and closed question.

Peace.

So what is the purpose of your bible then? You are bald-facedly declaring (and I thank you for being so brave) that you merely pick and choose which passages of the bible you feel like following! Thank you for admitting this! You totally blow off whichever portions of the very holy texts that your religion is based on that don't suit you but you still go to church to be preached at by a person that does actually believe the core foundations of the religion.

Does your pastor/preist/minister/reverend/witch-doctor/whatever know that you don't even give a crap about a lot of what he is spouting? Or do you keep quiet about it and attend services in hypocritical silence?

Enquiring minds want to know......

^ Ok, I never claimed I picked and chose. You're putting words in my mouth. You completely misunderstood my point about interpretation of scripture. Believe it or not, there are a lot of grey areas in scripture. It is not all black and white. But the thing about Organizations is that they have to put that grey area into a black or white box. Personal Faith is not constrained by the same strictures.

Secondly, I agree with MOST of what my church teaches. If I didn't, I wouldn't go there - period. I disagree with my pastor once-in-a-while, and when I do, I make that disagreement known (hypocritical silence - pfft). The Bible to me is the living words of God. I believe in the inerrancy of scripture, but I agree that people sometimes have differing opinions on what it says. I may not agree, but as long as it is contextually accurate, I accept them. On the whole though, I have found the church that I attend to be quite sound, doctrinally speaking. As I said, if we all went to churches that fully and 100% supported our view, we'd all be attending churches of 1 because I do not think anyone has exactly the same understanding of scripture as anyone else.

And for the record, I respect my pastor greatly. His knowledge is second-to-none. I attend church to fellowship with other people that hold similar views to what I do. I go there to be encouraged, and to encourage others, and I go there to learn and grow in my Christian walk of life.

In short, the Bible is the final authority on my belief - not the pastor who runs my church, who is simply a human being and just as fallible as the rest of us. Hopefully this fixes up any....... misunderstandings.... you may have taken from my earlier post.

If you don't accept the black and white text of the bible as the "gospel truth" (), then you either refute all of it or you are picking and choosing.


Sure it is. It is the same bible that christians believed literally for centuries. Why would you let something as secular as "science" lead you astray? The book is right there. Same book as penned by the disciples. What makes you willing to believe scientists instead of the disciples?


So why go to a church whose black and white box doesn't mesh with your views? Just admit that you aren't a baptist, presbyterian, adventist, lutheran or whatever! Just call yourself a deist and admit the bible is BS.


Oh. It is the word of god and unerring. Except the parts that don't mesh with your personal lifestyle? Those parts are subject to "interpretation"?

As Church Lady once said "How conveeeeeeeeeeenient".

Just to give you an example of what I mean by the difference between personal religion and organized religion. Imagine that you have one church that believes tithing is vitally important to the work of God. they use all the biblical references to back it up. Now, a group of this church looks at scripture and comes to the conclusion that while tithing was needed back in the Old Testament as a way to support the Levites, now that such a system is not in place there is no need for tithes. Instead, the tithe is replaced by "offerings" out of the freedom of the heart, not based on a rigid 10% system that was inherent in a society that was a lot different than it is today.

Now, as is the nature of organized religion that these two groups of people split, both believing almost exactly the same thing. The only difference is that one believes tithes are necessary, the other does not. Now, in practicality the belief on the tithe will make no difference as to how one lives their life. By all likelihood, those who do not believe in the tithe will likely be giving the same amount anyway as a freewill offering. It simply is not that important whether tithes are still relevant or not. And quite frankly, if I went to a church that taught one or the other, I don't think it would really matter. Therefore both churches are right. But the nature of organized religion is that they cannot have two contradictory doctrines on this issue. And so two different sects are born.

It's not a case of "one is right, the other is wrong". They both very well could be right and teach the truth. But such a simple matter as this causes two separate churches.

Now repeat this for other doctrines, and then others still. Such a small difference requires a new sect. Many might have the same core teachings, but because there is that one little bitty issue, they have to break off, or else the entire doctrine is useless.

That doesn't therefore mean that when I go to one church or another church I am a hypocrite for not believing everything, nor does it mean that I am simply "picking and choosing". In short, thanks for your response, but it was completely wrong in its assumptions about me

~ Regards, PA

Not at all. If you read my above post it should give you a good indication of what I mean. The tithe is a very contentious passage of scripture. As is the freewill/predestination debate. Both can be supported to one extent or another. But since neither doctrine has any bearing on salvation, in my personal religion, I have my opinion but I don't put it as concrete fact. Whereas an organized institution has to do so!

I never mentioned science? WHy are you bringing up issues that I haven't even raised? To satisfy your personal vendetta against religion? Look at my above post - how does "science" fit in with tithing or freewill offerings? How does it fit with freewill/predestination? How does it fit in with Holy Communion? How does it fit in with any of this?

I will admit only that I am Christian - a follower of Christ. I don't need to compartmentalize my belief into presbyterian, baptist, Anglican, or anything else just to satisfy what you think I believe.

Wrong again, my friend. If only it were that easy. If it were as easy as interpreting something that I don't agree with, then would my beliefs ever grow or change? Whenever I read something in the Bible that doesn't fit in with my life, then it is my life that changes, not the scripture. It has happened before and I have no doubt it will happen again. When I read the Bible it is my life that changes to suit God's, not God who changes to suit me.

Most definitely

As a Christian, I agree. It's these gray areas that give theologians and scholars the desire to investigate for a deeper meaning of the word. But the basics, which can be understood plainly, are mostly agreed upon by the majority of Christians.

I find it amazing how non-believers are so ready to call our faith false and then hold us accountable to the very beliefs that they themselves do not believe carry any merit. If Christian beliefs are so faulty, why do they want us to stand up for them and then criticize us for not doing it in a way they believe fit? I find this to be hypocritical on their part.
Only my opinion.

Don't you get it? There shouldn't even be the need for "theologans". The bible is right there! Read it and do what it says! Why should there be people to "investigate for a deeper meaning of the word"? LOL!

I find it amazing how supposed believers are so ready to accept "theologian's" decrees about which parts of the core religious texts of Christianity are actually lies!
Why isn't all true? And what sort of a mook would take the word of a 21st century "scholar" over the word of Mathew, Luke or John?!?!?!?

And why do you guys have so much trouble with simply admitting that you have made conscious choice to IGNORE the parts of the bible that you have decided don't matter?

Sure, you can try to weasel out of it by saying "OOOoh, OOooh, but this theologian said blah blah blah and therefore the bible is a lie and it really means this!", but (except for other xstians that also blow off whichever biblical passages they don't feel like following) nobody is fooled and they see you as a hypocrite. Still furious? Then pray for me. Thanks, that would be great.

This is sort of off the subject but there is a funny adult swim show named "Lucy, Daughter of the Devil" and in it Jesus (who is back on earth and a dj) rights a book and his girlfriend is upset because it's exactly about their relationship and she was upset about what it said. Well, Jesus defended himself by saying "It wasn't meant to be read literally, it's not literal." And then in another scene you see nuns and priests trying to decide who's interpritation of the book to use. I'm pretty sure they were using this as a metaphore for the bible and how religions say you can't read it literally or it won't make any sense.

Why not? The Bible is a big book (the one in front of me is 1252 pages long), each page raising many issues that can be discussed. It has been translated from Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, and a word that you see in English may not be a completely good representation of what it means in its historical context. The normal pleb on the street cannot know these deeper details, but those who have dedicated their entire life to studying the text can tell you what it means. The easiest example I can provide is when Jesus asks Peter "Peter, do you love me", to which Peter responds, "Yes Lord, you know I love you". The word that Jesus uses for "love" is agape. Peter is saying phileo. Both words are translated as "love". But they both mean different forms of love. But unless you had read the original Greek, or unless a thoelogian had read it and written about the ramifications, we would not know this.

Which is why whenever you read the Bible it is always important to study deeper. As was mentioned, at its most basic level, the Bible can be understood by the simplest of men or women. You don't NEED to know that there are two kinds of love being spoken about when Jesus is speaking to Peter. The gist of the event is quite obvious without knowing that. But it does provide a DEEPER UNDERSTANDING of the passage if you do know that there are two words being used.

I don't trust theologians to tell me what the Bible says. I sometimes use their research as a starting point to make my own decisions, and I sometimes use their commentaries on the original Greek or Hebrew roots to help inform me as to what the passage is really saying, but I do not believe them over the Bible. If what one of them says contradicts the Bible, then the theologian is wrong.

Why do you guys have so much trouble with simply admitting that we don't.

And sure you could try to weasel out of it by mocking us and telling us that we're rationalising or making it up, and that then try and tell us that we're making out that the Bible is a lie, but nobody is fooled - it's a matter of context, and you just don't want to admit that. But don't worry, if you really insist, I will pray for you. I hadn't really planned on it, but considering you asked for someone to pray for you.......

~ Regards, PA

"Religions" might say you can't take it literally but they say that because they are in business to make money and if they actually followed the true word and letter of the bible then they would get arrested and they would lose members and they would make less money. So they "reinterpret" the bible. And by "reinterpret" I mean twist words around so that they are appealing to whatever demographic the religion is marketing to.

And the target audience loves it! As long as an "official" representative of the religion tells them that they can ignore those portions of the bible that are distressing to them because it might mean that they would actually have to change their lifestyle to meet the Holy Word of the Bible then they are happy.

Supply and demand. You are afraid of death so you tell yourself you believe in a religion. Except you aren't stupid enough to actually believe the text of the religion. So you find a local denomination that is marketing to people that have the same unwillingness to suspend disbelief as yourself. PRESTO CHANGO MAGNIFICO! The bible has been "reinterpreted" to fit your lifestyle! Now make sure to give them money when the collection plate passes by!

This is exactly what I am talking about. Non-believers who say that we don't need to regard the history of the bible much less investigate it but then we get criticized for not knowing enough about it. Thanks for proving my point Repoman.



I never said I would. Methinks thou haveth trouble reading my post.



Well, if you think the theologians aren't necessary to investigate the questionable parts of the bible, then how do you think we go about finding out accurate truths? You are very good at contradicting yourself.



So who are you trying to convince? ME? or yourself? It's evident you fail to see the theologians role in this argument, much less the Christian's role. Have a good night.

^Good point. If there is no need for Bible-experts (also known as theologians), then is there no need for science experts - biologists, physicists, geneticists, or anyone else of that nature? If science is so right, why the need for people to dedicate their lives to explaining it.

So...the Pope claiming that he has no problem with Evolution...I take it he's never studied the Bible?

The answer is, there isn't one Jesus, there are many of them, each different, each for every little Christian congregation , church or individual.
And since non of them are real, this question is ridiculous

Uhhhh....

And how can you prove that evolution isn't a creationist tool?

How can you prove every step is pure chance?

Huh???????? what question are you talking about???????