Full Version: does god exist
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| its impossible to scientifically disprove the existance of a god . |
well contradictory properties is an ideal method of disproving somethings existence. But yes, it would be scientifically impossible to prove a negative...just like me asking you to prove that there are no quaghoppers. Burden of proof rest firmly on the shoulders of those making the positive claim, and guess what...ZERO PROOF:)
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| You need plenty faith for evolution as you must assume that the universe itself existed in the first place . |
two completely different theories
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| Evolution is a theory and always will be . theories can be proven wrong . |
its so obvious you have no idea:)
do you even understand the concept of a scientific theory?
so what if theories can be proven wrong? does that suddenly mean it is wrong?
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| I was trying to explain to him both beliefs need faith . |
no, one relies on evidence
the other relies on unsubstantiated claims
i don't think i have to tell you which one is which
Since the topic has once again changed from "Does God exist?" to "Creation vs. Evolution, on and on to the Big Bang" I have to say that no, evolution is in it's own field. The Big Bang is the best option or idea available right now to the science communtiy. Of course their are newer discoveries every day into how our universe works, but this stuff is based on astronomy studies. Evolution is the process of a species to better itself given the change in environment, or to better adapt to it's environment. As I'm not overly interested in the Big Bang, I don't know all the particulars. But since I am interested in human evolution, I do know that there are a lot of skeletons of apes that walked on two legs, then later used crude stone tools, then later were replaced by skeletons of a half human half ape man, that used fire, hunted with sharpened sticks, better stone tools. Later ( or should I say further up to the surface where the archeologists were digging) are found tthe bones of Neanderthals and Cromagnons, which were almost indistinguishable from humans today (Cro-mags). They had advanced tools, used fire etc. The tools were found with all these skeletons, proof of fire, all the things that we know of them are based on physical evidence. We find more in between stages every day. It doesn't take a huge leap of faith to see the connection. For a better view, and not one so personal, look at elephants. They've changed dramatically over time.
I'd have to find the link but I saw it in a National Geographic I think how we are able to see into smaller and smaller levels through the most advanced microscopes. The more scientists are able to see the intricate patterns that bind us together the more the idea grows within them that there really is some kind of living force behind it all. The pope even said that evolution is very possible. I know you guys like to fight amongst your denominations but it becomes apparent that every one's perceptions are evolving to the point that they see very little difference between what we all are barely starting to comprehend.
I'd have to find the link but I saw it in a National Geographic I think how we are able to see into smaller and smaller levels through the most advanced microscopes. The more scientists are able to see the intricate patterns that bind us together the more the idea grows within them that there really is some kind of living force behind it all. The pope even said that evolution is very possible. I know you guys like to fight amongst your denominations but it becomes apparent that every one's perceptions are evolving to the point that they see very little difference between what we all are barely starting to comprehend.
*Bathory has entered the realm*
Bathory , read fluffbunnies posts on this subject and try to figure out why this makes you hypocritical .
I see the theories as going hand in hand as they both are made to explain how things came to be without god in the picture . Think of the big bang as birth of the universe and evolution growing up . Thats how I see the similarity .
Bathory , read fluffbunnies posts on this subject and try to figure out why this makes you hypocritical .
I see the theories as going hand in hand as they both are made to explain how things came to be without god in the picture . Think of the big bang as birth of the universe and evolution growing up . Thats how I see the similarity .
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| I see the theories as going hand in hand as they both are made to explain how things came to be without god in the picture . Think of the big bang as birth of the universe and evolution growing up . Thats how I see the similarity . |
if you want over simplify things, then sure they are similar...
but in reality there is a huge difference between the beginning of time and existence and the development of life. You can argue as much as you want, evolution has been proven, and even if it can be proven wrong (hypothetically) there is no evidence to support creationism, claiming otherwise would be known as a non-sequitor.
i don't see any hypocrisy on my part, but hey, point it out if you must:)
| QUOTE (Xenojjin @ Jan 9 2004, 09:51 PM) |
| I see the theories as going hand in hand as they both are made to explain how things came to be without god in the picture . Think of the big bang as birth of the universe and evolution growing up . Thats how I see the similarity . |
I understand what you are saying, I can see how you would come to that conclusion.
The intersting thing about both of those theories is that the didn't try to prove or disprove the existance of god at all.
If you take the time to read about the theories, you will find that they weren't trying to explain away god, just trying to explain the processes that they viewed around them, be it biological or cosmological.
I know that some athiest point to the two theories as "proof" that god doesn't exist, but that isn't the case at all. Folks that are leaning on the two theories to disprove god, haven't taken the time to actually read them.
evolution disproves creationism
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| you give far to much credit to your theist brethren. trying to disprove evolution is like trying to disprove the moon landings:) |
my original point:
evolution is fact
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| I know that some athiest point to the two theories as "proof" that god doesn't exist, but that isn't the case at all. Folks that are leaning on the two theories to disprove god, haven't taken the time to actually read them |
woot , sounds like more of a blow to other atheists then the non atheists . Whos side are you taking anyway ? Oh well this ones already entering the realm of religion vs science which cant go anywhere ... I tried to make a joke out of it but noooooo.....
I summon a
figures
Bathory you have said that Evolution is fact, and you seem to imply that even if it could be proven wrong that it would not matter; and that faith has nothing to do withthe matter. You seem to say that we must disprove Evolution in order for there to be a God. All the while knowing that it is impossible to completely disprove Evolution or Creationism. No one was there who is alive today, there are no records that have been wrote by witnesses to the event of Creation, be it by evolutionary means or by Divine Creation. I can no more prove that Evolution is false, than you can prove that God does not exist.
Or maybe you can. I am sure that you alone are endowed with all the knowledge of the Universe, and thus are able to prove once and for all that God is Fake. So give us a sample of your almighty wisdom and lay this matter to rest forever.
Or maybe you can. I am sure that you alone are endowed with all the knowledge of the Universe, and thus are able to prove once and for all that God is Fake. So give us a sample of your almighty wisdom and lay this matter to rest forever.
| QUOTE (Tess @ Jan 10 2004, 01:01 AM) |
| I have some questions and thought this would be the right thread to ask............ We were made in God's image?So does that mean God looks like an everyday,normal human?Where did people go when they died BEFORE religions were started?Why do all the religions seem to worship someone different?Like some worship the Virgin Mary,others Jesus,etc.I thought God and Jesus were not the same person,so why do some religions only worship Jesus?How do you know which religion is right and which is wrong?Did God create man AFTER all the other types of man were already here,or was it neanderthal and the other pre-historic men that he created?  |
We were made in his image... that means we look SIMILIAR to him he probably has some diffrences... and I believe when we die we turn into pure energy so we can really choose what we look like anyway... maybe gods humanoid? thats all I mean... And you will know wich one is right from experience... God bless you ya know! At least you asking some questions and not just making a quick deduction without even looking beyond science and just sitting and thinking about the world around you.... Science is as much religion as Christianity...
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| Bathory you have said that Evolution is fact, and you seem to imply that even if it could be proven wrong that it would not matter; and that faith has nothing to do withthe matter. |
yes...your point?
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| You seem to say that we must disprove Evolution in order for there to be a God. |
i never said that, nor implied that
the closest i would have gotten is saying that evolution is fact, creationism isn't.
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| All the while knowing that it is impossible to completely disprove Evolution or Creationism. |
who said it was impossible to do either?
perhaps you could offer some proofs of Creationism? oh wait there isn't any.
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| No one was there who is alive today, there are no records that have been wrote by witnesses to the event of Creation, be it by evolutionary means or by Divine Creation. I can no more prove that Evolution is false, than you can prove that God does not exist. |
good for you, its a shame that it isn't the issue.
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| Or maybe you can. I am sure that you alone are endowed with all the knowledge of the Universe, and thus are able to prove once and for all that God is Fake. So give us a sample of your almighty wisdom and lay this matter to rest forever. |
sigh, i'll say it once more, its impossible to prove a negative assertion..
perhaps you should try to offer evidence in regards to your beliefs instead of asking me to disprove them.
run along now
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| Science is as much religion as Christianity... |
there is a HUGE difference between Christianity and Science, science is based on testable facts and observations, christianity is based on heresay and superstition. Its like saying that The Lord of the Rings is as much of a historical account as a non-fiction book about World War 2.
I Am Thirteen Heres My Proof Of My Faith (removed)
Experience Even One Of They First Two and you will without doubt believe in God...
Tut tut. That's not a very Christian thing to say, S&A.
- Had Countless obes
- Spoken in Tongues (An Amazing Experience)
- Been Filled With The Holy Spirit
- Had Foresight
- And I believe my mother may have contacted the desceased in her dreams... I never remember mine
- I have also Entered the astral
- Some Speculate I Am A Prophet (LOL I Doubt God Would Need Some Kid)
- Gotten pissed for no apparent reason (Nows a good Example)
Experience Even One Of They First Two and you will without doubt believe in God...
Tut tut. That's not a very Christian thing to say, S&A.
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| There is your proof of creation |
thats not proof of creation
thats anecdotal evidence of the supernatural (if that, mental instability could also explain it)
what makes you assume that its a god/s? hell what makes you assume its YOUR god?
Did you know that i had an OBE and i met a cat which said that you are wrong! wow definitive proof.
Being an Atheist i'd like to offer one thought on this creationvsevolution:-
What if the big bang happened and the planets an galaxies and all else was created and God decided to put his magic spoon in the cooking pot so to speak and started life off but that he also created a way for life to progress on its own ie evolution
i may be over simplifying this what does everyone think (be gentle)
What if the big bang happened and the planets an galaxies and all else was created and God decided to put his magic spoon in the cooking pot so to speak and started life off but that he also created a way for life to progress on its own ie evolution
i may be over simplifying this what does everyone think (be gentle)
| QUOTE (Student&Alive @ Jan 10 2004, 07:14 AM) |
| I Am Thirteen Heres My Proof Of My Faith |
Yes thats proof of your faith, not of creation
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| Experience Even One Of They First Two and you will without doubt believe in God... |
and i have experienced obe when i was younger. i learned a technique used to try and control your dreams, and often before i went to sleep i would have that experience. i believe it to be a state of mind, i put my mind in such a state that it would seem like i'm having an obe, but it is just like dreaming, it really isnt happening.
i have since stopped, becasue it was freaking me out, and i would often be aware in my dreams, try to wake up, and not be able to! that is a scary situation
but again, this is all in my head! there is no God controlling me, or whatever...
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| sigh, i'll say it once more, its impossible to prove a negative assertion.. perhaps you should try to offer evidence in regards to your beliefs instead of asking me to disprove them. run along now |
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| evolution disproves creationism |
It would be nice if you could stop contradicting yourself .
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| there is a HUGE difference between Christianity and Science, science is based on testable facts and observations, christianity is based on heresay and superstition. Its like saying that The Lord of the Rings is as much of a historical account as a non-fiction book about World War 2. |
You dont know much about the bible then . Taking out all the things about god , their are records of historical events in the bible that have been proven to have occured , even Jesus's crucifiction is documented elsewhere outside the bible .
| QUOTE (Xenojjin @ Jan 9 2004, 10:30 PM) |
| Oh well this ones already entering the realm of religion vs science which cant go anywhere ... I tried to make a joke out of it but noooooo..... |
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| woot , sounds like more of a blow to other atheists then the non atheists |
Actually it isn't a blow to anybody really. I have seen that people have been using both evolution and the big bang theory in an attempt to disprove gods existance. I happen to have been a biology major in college, with a minor in astronomy. I have a little bit of knowledge about the two issues and get defensive when they are repeatedly used outside of the scope of their intended use. Neither of the originators of their theories was trying to disprove a god at all.
Before this gets taken out of context I need to add a caveat. If you are a biblical literalist and think that the earth was actually created in 6 calander days(with a day off for god), well then we aren't going to see eye to eye no matter how hard we try.
Both of these theories deal with much longer timelines that the biblical 6 millenia. Although science allows for the timelines to adjust a bit to allow for new scientific findings, we are still talking about evolution occuring over millions of years, and the big bang occuring some 13 billion years ago.
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| Whos side are you taking anyway ? |
I am taking the side of logic and reasoning. As I have said in the past I want people to think.
If someone chooses to believe in christianity because they feel that is their own best personal choice, that is wonderful, and I am fully supportive of that. I have a problem when people choose a given religeon without any thought, or out of fear of going to hell. I have alot of concerns with how christianity gets it's followers, but that is a different thread. Fundamentalists bother me to no end...
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| Oh well this ones already entering the realm of religion vs science which cant go anywhere |
I don't think that is the case at all. It can be interesting to see other peoples point of view. It can be good to learn about what motivates other people to their given point of view. Just as long as it doesn't turn into a screaming match.
In that case , my motive for becoming christian was because I really liked some of the views protrayed in it .
"treat others how you like to b treated"
"Let he who has no sin cast the first stone"
ect
"treat others how you like to b treated"
"Let he who has no sin cast the first stone"
ect
| QUOTE |
| Being an Atheist i'd like to offer one thought on this creationvsevolution:- What if the big bang happened and the planets an galaxies and all else was created and God decided to put his magic spoon in the cooking pot so to speak and started life off but that he also created a way for life to progress on its own ie evolution i may be over simplifying this what does everyone think (be gentle) |
It really is an either or concept. Either God created everything or he didn't create anything.
It really is an either or concept. Either God created everything or he didn't create anything.
I don't think the previous post went against that position.
He was saying couldn't God have created the universe to operate through natural mechanisms?
So species are created by evolution. But evolution was created by God, therefore species are created by God and he uses the mechanism of evolution.
I don't think the previous post went against that position.
He was saying couldn't God have created the universe to operate through natural mechanisms?
So species are created by evolution. But evolution was created by God, therefore species are created by God and he uses the mechanism of evolution.
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| I don't think the previous post went against that position. |
After closer review...you are right.
I actually hold that view myself. Thanks.
thankyou void you put it better than i did 
| QUOTE (Nethius @ Jan 10 2004, 02:43 PM) | ||||
Yes thats proof of your faith, not of creation
and i have experienced obe when i was younger. i learned a technique used to try and control your dreams, and often before i went to sleep i would have that experience. i believe it to be a state of mind, i put my mind in such a state that it would seem like i'm having an obe, but it is just like dreaming, it really isnt happening. i have since stopped, becasue it was freaking me out, and i would often be aware in my dreams, try to wake up, and not be able to! that is a scary situation but again, this is all in my head! there is no God controlling me, or whatever... |
My faith is in creation... And have you ever been aware when your leaving your body? Try sleeping over at a friends have them put something in the kitchen like a number on a piece of paper... leave your body and look at it... theres your proof... Thats a obe... what you talking about is a lucid dream....
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| It would be nice if you could stop contradicting yourself . |
...sigh
it looks like i'm going to have to explain it out slowly for you
ok, when talking about a negative assertion, i'm refering to a universal negative such as lets see...uh god! unless one is omniscient, one must conceed that somewhere out there god may exist. In that case, asking someone to disprove god is like asking them to disprove lickertappers (thats something i made up, still with me? )
Evolution and Creationism are both clearly defined AND are supposed to apply to the earth, both are models which are concerned with the same thing and are mutually exclusive, neither present the problem of a universal negative, therefore negative assertions don't apply...capiche?
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| You dont know much about the bible then . Taking out all the things about god , their are records of historical events in the bible that have been proven to have occured , even Jesus's crucifiction is documented elsewhere outside the bible . |
you've got to be kidding me? Just because Jesus was crucified does not mean he was the son of god. Great logic, so i'll assume that because Rainbow 6 by Tom Clancy makes use of real historical events that can be verified elsewhere, that the actual events in the story occured.
your taking this too hard bathory , and you are contradicting yourself
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evolution disproves creationism |
ok , creationism is the idea of god , so its a universal negative .
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| i'm refering to a universal negative such as lets see...uh god! |
you agree to this apperantly , now you say
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| therefore negative assertions don't apply...capiche? |
so its impossible to disprove a negative , true .
Now lets substitute in "evolution disproves creationism" with "god" therefore negative like you are saying
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| evolution disproves a negative |
A slip of the tongue perhaps ?
Point is your trying to turn this topic into another christian bashing party . With every new thing I give you you absolutly must find someway to shoot that christian stuff down since it must be false since your logic is somehow greater then those who believe their is a god . Evolution requires faith , plenty of it . First of all ... what are the chances of us being here today from the start of a single cell
( assuming the first ever cell must have come from spontanious generation ) then growing to form off hundreds of mutualistic relationships and not just a few multicellular organisms to the point of us being here today with advanced technology is about 1 in a gogolplexian .Assuming that highly unlikely chance does explain how we are here If you believe in evolution in replacement of creationism , you are still using quite a lot of faith as you must assume the first cell to start the process of evolution came from spontaneous generation which has been disproven .
Im not bashing evolution , nor am I leading this into another christian bashing because christians are just the most irrational evil beings on the planet that all desrve to die . I am trying to get you to realize that you are in quite a few cases using faith by replacing creationism with evolution as part of the explanation of why we are here . Its impossible to have a belief of how humans are here today without faith so deal with it .
( assuming the first ever cell must have come from spontanious generation ) then growing to form off hundreds of mutualistic relationships and not just a few multicellular organisms to the point of us being here today with advanced technology is about 1 in a gogolplexian .Assuming that highly unlikely chance does explain how we are here If you believe in evolution in replacement of creationism , you are still using quite a lot of faith as you must assume the first cell to start the process of evolution came from spontaneous generation which has been disproven .
Im not bashing evolution , nor am I leading this into another christian bashing because christians are just the most irrational evil beings on the planet that all desrve to die . I am trying to get you to realize that you are in quite a few cases using faith by replacing creationism with evolution as part of the explanation of why we are here . Its impossible to have a belief of how humans are here today without faith so deal with it .
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| ok , creationism is the idea of god , so its a universal negative |
according to our good friend www.dictionary.com
creationism is the..
Belief in the literal interpretation of the account of the creation of the universe and of all living things related in the Bible.
not, the idea of god...
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| Now lets substitute in "evolution disproves creationism" with "god" therefore negative like you are saying |
therefore this statement is invalid
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| A slip of the tongue perhaps ? |
nope, just a bad attempt at trying to prove me wrong on your part unfortunately
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| Evolution requires faith , plenty of it . First of all ... what are the chances of us being here today from the start of a single cell |
chance has nothing to do with it, tell my why because the chances are incredibly low that it requires faith?
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| ( assuming the first ever cell must have come from spontanious generation ) |
there were precursors to the first cell you know...replicating proteins etc etc
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| then growing to form off hundreds of mutualistic relationships and not just a few multicellular organisms to the point of us being here today with advanced technology is about 1 in a gogolplexian |
again, chance has nothing to do with it, all that is required is that it happened. We also must remember that we are talking about billions of years, thats quite a long time to go about things...
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| Assuming that highly unlikely chance does explain how we are here If you believe in evolution in replacement of creationism , you are still using quite a lot of faith as you must assume the first cell to start the process of evolution came from spontaneous generation which has been disproven . |
the problem for you is that
a) you don't seem to know much about what you are talking about regarding scientific theories about first life
science bases its theories on evidence, not huge leaps of faith| QUOTE |
| Im not bashing evolution , nor am I leading this into another christian bashing because christians are just the most irrational evil beings on the planet that all desrve to die . |
nor am I, I'm bashing creationists:P
Bathory, I will make this as short as I can so you don't have to quote much. Here you are trying to disprove God to be the creator of human life because you believe God didn't create human life. The reason I said that you "believe" is because there isn't enough sufficient evidence for it to be a fact. Otherwise, if it were a "fact" most if not all people here wouldn't question you. So how can you prove evolution happened, if you can't prove that God didn't create human life?
In example: How can the Prosecutor prove the Defendant guilty of murdering his wife when they haven't found her body, she just might have gone off to the store.
My point is stop trying to prove humanity through Evolution when you CAN'T even prove God DIDN'T create humanity.
Thanks for taking the time to read this,
SOCOL
In example: How can the Prosecutor prove the Defendant guilty of murdering his wife when they haven't found her body, she just might have gone off to the store.
My point is stop trying to prove humanity through Evolution when you CAN'T even prove God DIDN'T create humanity.
Thanks for taking the time to read this,
SOCOL
| QUOTE |
| In example: How can the Prosecutor prove the Defendant guilty of murdering his wife when they haven't found her body, she just might have gone off to the store. |
i dunno? maybe through other forms of evidence?
a body isn't necessary to prove someone did the crime.
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| Here you are trying to disprove God to be the creator of human life because you believe God didn't create human life. |
no, God for all intents and purposes of this arguement could very well have created humanity, in which case its all about HOW he did it..
what we have is a beginning, and an end..we are trying to establish the middle.
To use your analogy, we know there was a murder (the guy confessed), we have the body, and now we are trying to work out HOW he did it.
In which case, evolution is the butchers knife, its as simple as that.
That’s odd, didn't not too long ago you said:
| QUOTE |
| "evolution disproves creationism" |
And yet are good'ol friend dictionary.com claims:
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| creationism Belief in the literal interpretation of the account of the creation of the universe and of all living things related in the Bible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- n : the literal belief in the account of creation given in the Book of Genesis; "creationism denies the theory of evolution of species" Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University |
And in the bible were it say's God Created humanity, which you agreed to for the sake of the argument leaves me with one question with two answers:
A: Will you be a hypocrite to all your previous posts and except Creationism over Evolution?
Or
B: Will you be a hypocrite to your last post and only agree with the Bible parts that please you and your argument of Evolution over Creation?
What have the christians ever done wrong? APART from all the charlatans... no honestly I would like to know.
| QUOTE |
| Belief in the literal interpretation of the account of the creation of the universe and of all living things related in the Bible. not, the idea of god... |
It says god created the universe IN the bible , hence the idea of god creating the universe . Unless your trying to claim the bible and god are not related , now THAT would be really sad ...
Myself i believe more in evolution (stimulated), rather than the creation of the human race by a god. Considering DNA is in everything living and all animals and homo sapiens are all related in one way or the other (need proof of this? use google o_o;; ).
(my mind swings more in the way of homo sapiens being the creation of a alien race, and no i'm not going to argue about it).
(my mind swings more in the way of homo sapiens being the creation of a alien race, and no i'm not going to argue about it).
Do you want me to copy paste the exact texts? Someone here needs to learn hebrew and translate the bible AGAIN..... But then again the only person you can really trust is yourself.. If you dont believe theres a God then im sorry for you...But sometimes the blind man prefers the dark to the light... make your own choice of faith its up to you. Lets end this now as far as im concerned God IS the holy almighty and divine creator of this world. If you think otherwise then go ahead. And yes Aliens COULD very well be Angels ECTTT.... The blondes do fit the perfect description of angels... anyway I think the aliens are not really aliens just spiritual beings... do some research and go beyond the flying saucer laser beams crap and you will discover im right. And I really do not believe they are aliens....There SPIRITS.. 
Everyone makes there own choices so go and make up your mind.. dont argue about it here if you already have
Everyone makes there own choices so go and make up your mind.. dont argue about it here if you already have
I can't believe you people... can you guys just look past your noses and see the other person view! This is the sort of of thing you gonna able to proof or disproof.
Why dos't have to be one or the other? maybe it's both.
Why dos't have to be one or the other? maybe it's both.
well i opened a can of worms here eh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! though it has been fascinating i don't think this will ever be resolved until you die then you will either say HA I TOLD YOU SO or SH+T I'M IN DEEP NOW lol
| QUOTE (Student&Alive @ Jan 11 2004, 06:09 PM) |
| Do you want me to copy paste the exact texts? Someone here needs to learn hebrew and translate the bible AGAIN..... But then again the only person you can really trust is yourself.. If you dont believe theres a God then im sorry for you...But sometimes the blind man prefers the dark to the light... make your own choice of faith its up to you. Lets end this now as far as im concerned God IS the holy almighty and divine creator of this world. If you think otherwise then go ahead. And yes Aliens COULD very well be Angels ECTTT.... The blondes do fit the perfect description of angels... anyway I think the aliens are not really aliens just spiritual beings... do some research and go beyond the flying saucer laser beams crap and you will discover im right. And I really do not believe they are aliens....There SPIRITS.. Everyone makes there own choices so go and make up your mind.. dont argue about it here if you already have |
Don't be sorry, i'm not. True aliens could be spirits, but you also have to think of the possibility that they maybe alien as well. Its the same with angels/demons, the whole battle of good verus evil, could be a alien war. But who knows like so many have mentioned here already, we won't know till we peg it. And theres no point in ranting on a forum, or trying to 'convert the heathen'.
As for flying saucers with laser beams, there hasn't been a single case of flying saucers shooting anything with any kind of contraption.
| QUOTE |
| And in the bible were it say's God Created humanity, which you agreed to for the sake of the argument leaves me with one question with two answers: A: Will you be a hypocrite to all your previous posts and except Creationism over Evolution? Or B: Will you be a hypocrite to your last post and only agree with the Bible parts that please you and your argument of Evolution over Creation? |
has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps just perhaps genesis is NOT a literal account? is it so hard to imagine? and then i ask If you believe genesis to be a literal account, do you also believe that cripples are an affront to god, that slavery is fine, that multiple wifes is perfectly reasonable, stoning people to death fro committing certain acts is fine etc etc I ask this because the majority of christians accept that Genesis is not a literal account...
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| It says god created the universe IN the bible , hence the idea of god creating the universe . |
What is your point? I didn't say he didn't create the universe, hell for the sake of the arguement i agreed because it doesn't change anything regarding evolution/creationism. This is about the HOW of life, not the WHO!
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| What is your point? I didn't say he didn't create the universe, hell for the sake of the arguement i agreed because it doesn't change anything regarding evolution/creationism. This is about the HOW of life, not the WHO! |
would only be true if their are no people here who believe the HOW is the WHO .
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| has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps just perhaps genesis is NOT a literal account? is it so hard to imagine? and then i ask If you believe genesis to be a literal account, do you also believe that cripples are an affront to god, that slavery is fine, that multiple wifes is perfectly reasonable, stoning people to death fro committing certain acts is fine etc etc I ask this because the majority of christians accept that Genesis is not a literal account... |
OMG ... *sighs* the only thing he refered to was one part of genesis "god created the universe" . thats the basic idea of the entire bible . I cant believe your trying to say "god created the universe" is a translation issue . Its stated about 600 times in the book so I seriously doubt they got that part wrong . I think your slipping over yourself in this one .
we have established for the sake of the arguement god created the universe
what is now being argued is "HOW" did he create life
Evolution is how it happened, creationism is a load of rubbish (argue as much as you want, the evidence out there screams bad science)
/me lookes back, yup he still created the universe
/me looks at the bible, oh geez its not a literal 7 days *puff* theres life as we know it deal, who'd have thought.
what is now being argued is "HOW" did he create life
Evolution is how it happened, creationism is a load of rubbish (argue as much as you want, the evidence out there screams bad science)
/me lookes back, yup he still created the universe
/me looks at the bible, oh geez its not a literal 7 days *puff* theres life as we know it deal, who'd have thought.
In the feild of science and creationism you have proven you know :
Very little to nothing .
Oddly enough , their are many , many creationist scientists . Why would there be scientists who believe in creationism if science disproves creationism ? The fact is many scientific claims actually Reinforce the ideas of creationism , rather then argue about something thats obvious why dont you go find out about why there are creationist scientists yourself ? You are arguing about something you know very little about if you honestly think their is no logic in creationism .
Very little to nothing .
Oddly enough , their are many , many creationist scientists . Why would there be scientists who believe in creationism if science disproves creationism ? The fact is many scientific claims actually Reinforce the ideas of creationism , rather then argue about something thats obvious why dont you go find out about why there are creationist scientists yourself ? You are arguing about something you know very little about if you honestly think their is no logic in creationism .
| QUOTE |
| In the feild of science and creationism you have proven you know : Very little to nothing . |
so says the person running around talking about spontaneous generation
| QUOTE |
| Oddly enough , their are many , many creationist scientists . Why would there be scientists who believe in creationism if science disproves creationism ? |
ever wondered why the scientific community ignores them?
| QUOTE |
| The fact is many scientific claims actually Reinforce the ideas of creationism , rather then argue about something thats obvious why dont you go find out about why there are creationist scientists yourself ? |
the fact is that the majority of these 'scientific' claims are a result of dodgy research, self referencing, out dated information etc etc
| QUOTE |
| You are arguing about something you know very little about if you honestly think their is no logic in creationism . |
perhaps you should actually do some research on creationism, and research some of the top creationist 'scientists' before you actually make comment, because its more than evident you know very little about it.
Wouldn't that be like saying that you don't know anything about being Atheistic? 
| QUOTE |
| Wouldn't that be like saying that you don't know anything about being Atheistic? |
nope
"I'm right your wrong" "No I'm right your wrong""No I'm right your wrong""No I'm right your wrong""No I'm right your wrong""No I'm right your wrong"
"You know nothing" "No, you know nothing""No, you know nothing""No, you know nothing""No, you know nothing"
And the debate rages on.
"You know nothing" "No, you know nothing""No, you know nothing""No, you know nothing""No, you know nothing"
And the debate rages on.
Woa...Bathory...I'm so sorry I left you to fend for yourself over here Had friends up for the weekend...by god you've been at it hard, I must say
I'm still waiting with baited breath for someone to properly address your point that the theories of evolution are based on proven, observable facts. The best Xenojin could do seems to be "Ha! The bible had real historical events in it, so it must be true!"...which is like saying "You know, people fight with swords in lord of the rings...people used to fight with swords in our past...I bet lord of the rings is real!"
You're flogging a dead horse my friend...evidence is something that just isn't required for people who're utterly blinded by their faith. In fact, I know from my long debates on this matter that they'll even 'create' evidence, quoting obscure beliefs from petty, minority circles, and trying to pretend its mainstream, investigated fact.
It's an arguement you can't win I'm afraid. However, now that I'm here, I'll do my best to split the load with you
But please, I'm begging one religious person to come up with a half decent arguement as to why evolution, as has been pointed out supported by investigated facts, is apparantly the less likely option compaired to creationism, supported by...well...what your preacher tell you I guess
Take your time now.
Had friends up for the weekend...by god you've been at it hard, I must say I'm still waiting with baited breath for someone to properly address your point that the theories of evolution are based on proven, observable facts. The best Xenojin could do seems to be "Ha! The bible had real historical events in it, so it must be true!"...which is like saying "You know, people fight with swords in lord of the rings...people used to fight with swords in our past...I bet lord of the rings is real!"
You're flogging a dead horse my friend...evidence is something that just isn't required for people who're utterly blinded by their faith. In fact, I know from my long debates on this matter that they'll even 'create' evidence, quoting obscure beliefs from petty, minority circles, and trying to pretend its mainstream, investigated fact.
It's an arguement you can't win I'm afraid. However, now that I'm here, I'll do my best to split the load with you
But please, I'm begging one religious person to come up with a half decent arguement as to why evolution, as has been pointed out supported by investigated facts, is apparantly the less likely option compaired to creationism, supported by...well...what your preacher tell you I guess
Take your time now.
oh i realise the futility of it all
ultimately though, its still a bit of fun and provides a bit of mental stimulation:)
ultimately though, its still a bit of fun and provides a bit of mental stimulation:)
*jumps in*
I've been reading this whole thread, trying to think up arguements, except, I finally realises that I have no idea what points are being argued....
How bout each side puts in an abriged version of their arguement and take it from there so everyone doesn't keep repeating themselves?
So is it that God cannot possibly exist because creationism doesn't allow for evolution? ie, *poof* there are humans - no in between, no australopithicus, no homo erectus, just monkeys and humans....
I was reading an article a while back that said that there was a group pressuring the American education system to cut a whole lot of stuff out of the curriculum because it would 'offend' people. OFFEND! Like, children couldn't be taught about dinosaurs, because, of course, God didn't create them and therefore all those christian kiddies will learn something that goes against what they learn. Of course, I must say that the things wren't just religious-related. The pressure was to take out anything "dangerous, challenging, culturally sensitive or liable to cause allergic reaction". Hows that for a killer of free thoguht and opinion?
"Exam quetions must not refer to mountains, since this discriminates against children who live in flat areas"
Ludicrous stuff.
I don't think I'd like to join a religion that threatens eternal torment if you don't do what they say to do.
A member asked "How do you know which is the right religion?"
Well, I'd have to say - isn't that obvious? It's the one that says if you are not one of them you'll spend your afterlife in eternal torment. It's the one that says that if you choose another God over moi you'll spend your afterlife in eternal torment. Because obviously, this is the religion to go with!
God is punishing us for the whole Adam and Eve thing aye? I thought, as a society, we were working towards ways of discipline that didn't involve violence? Sure, it's ok to give a kid a pat on the bottom to say it isn't right (heck, taht's all I needed) but to do that everyday of your stinking life, whether you get the picture or not?
Oh Jeepers, I'd have to apologise for all that because I think I amy ahve turned this into christian bashing. No really, I am sorry, but I ahd to say it.. please forgive me.
There are just some things I'll never understand - how the human mind works is a biggie, that's for sure. Can anyone picture themselves as 'some who knows better'. Just that, picture yourself as someone who knows better tahn everyone else and think how damned funny this must be. Maybe.... God is sitting up there right now thinking "Lmao! hey, Buddha! come over hear! check out what these people come up with! It's side-splitting I tell ya! side-splitting"
I could swear there was something else I wanted to say....Bah, I'll post it later if I think of it and if it isn't too 'christian basher'-like.
Some (if not most) of this is bound to offend, so take my apologies now.
Have a good day
Potholer
*jumps out*
I've been reading this whole thread, trying to think up arguements, except, I finally realises that I have no idea what points are being argued....
How bout each side puts in an abriged version of their arguement and take it from there so everyone doesn't keep repeating themselves?
So is it that God cannot possibly exist because creationism doesn't allow for evolution? ie, *poof* there are humans - no in between, no australopithicus, no homo erectus, just monkeys and humans....
I was reading an article a while back that said that there was a group pressuring the American education system to cut a whole lot of stuff out of the curriculum because it would 'offend' people. OFFEND! Like, children couldn't be taught about dinosaurs, because, of course, God didn't create them and therefore all those christian kiddies will learn something that goes against what they learn. Of course, I must say that the things wren't just religious-related. The pressure was to take out anything "dangerous, challenging, culturally sensitive or liable to cause allergic reaction". Hows that for a killer of free thoguht and opinion?
"Exam quetions must not refer to mountains, since this discriminates against children who live in flat areas"
Ludicrous stuff.
I don't think I'd like to join a religion that threatens eternal torment if you don't do what they say to do.
A member asked "How do you know which is the right religion?"
Well, I'd have to say - isn't that obvious? It's the one that says if you are not one of them you'll spend your afterlife in eternal torment. It's the one that says that if you choose another God over moi you'll spend your afterlife in eternal torment. Because obviously, this is the religion to go with!
God is punishing us for the whole Adam and Eve thing aye? I thought, as a society, we were working towards ways of discipline that didn't involve violence? Sure, it's ok to give a kid a pat on the bottom to say it isn't right (heck, taht's all I needed) but to do that everyday of your stinking life, whether you get the picture or not?
Oh Jeepers, I'd have to apologise for all that because I think I amy ahve turned this into christian bashing. No really, I am sorry, but I ahd to say it.. please forgive me.
There are just some things I'll never understand - how the human mind works is a biggie, that's for sure. Can anyone picture themselves as 'some who knows better'. Just that, picture yourself as someone who knows better tahn everyone else and think how damned funny this must be. Maybe.... God is sitting up there right now thinking "Lmao! hey, Buddha! come over hear! check out what these people come up with! It's side-splitting I tell ya! side-splitting"
I could swear there was something else I wanted to say....Bah, I'll post it later if I think of it and if it isn't too 'christian basher'-like.
Some (if not most) of this is bound to offend, so take my apologies now
.Have a good day
Potholer
*jumps out*
well potholer im ofended
Before i start im not sure what I believe either way ok
Seraphina
Before i start im not sure what I believe either way ok
Seraphina
| QUOTE |
| which is like saying "You know, people fight with swords in lord of the rings...people used to fight with swords in our past...I bet lord of the rings is real!" |
Your argument against xenojinn is flawed.
This way of describing literary work is in turn then describing all books wether they be historical or not as fiction.
Q.Are all books based on historical fact?
A. Of course not but a many writings by ancient historians are historically accurate, and not fiction, even books that arent entirely accurate can be laced with facts(they are always based on an individual's personal viewpoint).
You cannot compare Lord of the Rings to the bible and it is YOUR blindness on this particulour subject that is preventing you from actually considering that the events "recorded" in the bible could have happened. I mean science has never disproven the existence of god has it?
Who's to say we just cannot comprehend te existence of a higher form of being much like animals in an wildlife programme has no comprehension of what is happpening to it
?In other posts that you have vehmently defended the existence of a "big foot" type creature yet we have as much or less proof of its existence.
So whats the difference?
The only way i can believe personally is if our whole understanding of god is flawed.
I mean the bible was written a long time ago by men who believed in a very difefrent world. Whos to say that they were writing in the only way they could actually percieve the evnets taking place? There accounts just might not be accurate not completley wrong?
Maybe this argues down the "evolution disproves god" argument. These arent the acual words of god they are eye witness accounts by HUMANS.
How could they have properly understood the idea of evolution at that stage in humanity's history?
Anyway thats just my opinion
| QUOTE |
| Of course not but a many writings by ancient historians are historically accurate, and not fiction, even books that arent entirely accurate can be laced with facts(they are always based on an individual's personal viewpoint |
just because a book contains historically accurate references does not make it a historical fact. I mean crap, all one has to do is look at other religous texts to see that they all contain historical references.
| QUOTE |
| Who's to say we just cannot comprehend te existence of a higher form of being much like animals in an wildlife programme has no comprehension of what is happpening to it ? |
we don't seem to have any problems defining him in the bible...unless of course thats all pure speculation:)
| QUOTE |
| I mean the bible was written a long time ago by men who believed in a very difefrent world. Whos to say that they were writing in the only way they could actually percieve the evnets taking place? There accounts just might not be accurate not completley wrong? |
well it seems you aren't a creationist, which means, for this arguement, noones disagreeing:)
| QUOTE |
| Maybe this argues down the "evolution disproves god" argument. These arent the acual words of god they are eye witness accounts by HUMANS. |
i think it was one of the theists who claimed that this was an evolution disproves god dea, trying to claim that creationism is god or some other dribble like that. I have made no such assertion, i have simply stated that evolution disproves creationism. Simple as that, the evidence is overwhelming.
| QUOTE |
| How could they have properly understood the idea of evolution at that stage in humanity's history? |
people didn't understand biology back in those days, it was a great mystery, now most normal people know better...
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