A lot of people will preach - FREEDOM OF FAITH

too many would sit and tell non - christians, that, they are entitled to be who they are, and how they are free to follow whatever they like...AND, how they don't wish to condemn their choice in what path they travel on

Sounds nice doesn't it?

BUT!!

Are the non christians REALLY free??..What about feeling condemned? Are the christian free??

I have seen a number of people say - Yes you are free to follow whatever you like, I wont condemn your beliefs....(then they add in)...But if you choose not to follow christ, you will suffer for all eternity

So when that same person that just more or less dictated who the non christian SHOULD follow and made a bold point in stating what would happen to the non christian if he/she chose NOT to accept christ......is that their way of expressing just how FREE the non christian really is?? their choice limited?? follow my path or else?? <---free?? no condemning?? ya think??

Theres more...
How many have told non christian that they are fools not to follow christ...or too arrogant to stay away from the christian faith?? And state how they are so happy and feel love peace and joy because they follow christ!! raising themselves up on that big pedestal....
Thats telling the non christian..that they are stupid and ignorant and must lead such rotten lives!!!

If this person is questioned as to why so judgmental, and WHY so harsh........Q, what do you think their usual response would sound like??
A - It's my faith,it's what I believe in...I am not harsh nor am I judgmental, I am merely only giving advice, for I care about hem, I am only looking out for them, is that so bad?

Some go as far as to add - Well it's like someone you care about standing in the middle of the railway tracks, and you can see the train coming heading straight for them, so you yell out for them to move out of the way, before they get splattered...eeeww the carnage!! <---believe it or not, people have used this silly analogy to back themselves up lol...I call it silly, because of the following reasons...
A - If you were standing in the middle of the railway tracks, I think you would hear and SEE the train coming...for trains are loud...you could hear them a mile off....in fact you wouldn't hear anyone yell at you if the train was 200 odd yards from you................and you would be an idiot to stay putt

B - A train is real, the person standing on the tracks is real..the danger is real....it's not the same as a faith in God, something to just believe in NO...the train and the person standing on the tracks would be REALITY..the danger would be REAL.....going to a place that no one can prove is real..to burn for all eternity is something you cant class as real and you cant prove it to be real

So when they are 'advising' the non christian to accept Jesus...that is not allowing someone the right to their OWN choice, in fact, it's selfish to try and get someone to follow your way, especially if you were not asked to in the 1st place....this by far is not freedom of choice, ...so in reality you don't really mean they are free to walk whatever path they like....for you have just told them what path and what the consequences are if they remain non christian

What about the non christians??

When they tell a christian their faith is stupid, and how rotten their God is...some even go as far as to add - you must think from outside the box...you aren't a free thinker

Does this look familiar? --> Well I don't mind anyone holding a blind faith, if they want to believe in an invisible being in the sky and to follow a vengeful God, more power to them, but I prefer to think from outside the box, I am a free thinker, I don't have tunnel vision, I am not judgmental for I believe everyone should be free to chose their own faith but I think their religion is dangerous, they lead such delusional lives, I guess you need to be educated to be a free thinker...make the world a smarter place be a skeptic

All of the above is so contradicting and at the same time so very judgmental and insulting...here is why..

The start off by saying - I don't mind anyone holding a blind faith...then they make it look as though they are smarter than the christians by adding this - How smart they are compared to the christian, how they are better educated than the christian, and if you look at it through a bigger light, they are actually saying to be a christian you must be a right dunce and easy brainwashed
And the funny ironic part of it all is - they claim NOT to be judgmental

is this their way of saying the christian is free?? IMO..NO..all they have done is put them down and raise themselves on a high pedestal

What about the really pig ignorant people that see how one would disagree with the others faith ..and get all rowdy and blast that person for not agreeing and call them intolerant!!.....IMO the only one that is really ignorant is the person that does this..for all they are saying is...you SHOULD accept them, you SHOULD agree..for you don't have a right to state your opinion..so I am doing my best here to make trouble and call you intolerant...for I have no clue what tolerance actually means...and I am telling you that you have no freedom of opinion here..

To sum this all up...both sides can be insulting and so judgmental blinded by their own ignorance ...BOTH look at thing with tunnel vision and BOTH are too arrogant to see how they are contradicting themselves

It's all true, BM.

Sometimes I let my irritation get the better of me and I bite back, but I try not to be judgemental. I don't believe in religion, never have, and I don't see the attraction of it. I'll reserve my right to debate the topic as much as anyone though and at times I've even defended religion against those with an agenda to see it banished.

I know I could be wrong in what I believe, but it is what I believe and I'll defend it staunchly. I do get a tad annoyed though, when people try to include me in their beliefs.

I would like to ask an opinion though. If I believe I am not part of someone's belief - not included in their deity's judgement for example - am I imposing my belief on them?

Well spoken (well written)! I've said it before that you have great posts and this is one of the best. Thank you!

Don't all of those views actually EXPRESS the freedom to have faith or not?

From the Christians' standpoint part of expressing their faith is expressing the concern that someone who has not accepted, or has even gone as far as actually rejecting, Christ as Savior IS endangering their eternal soul.

As for the non-believer, saying that those who believe in God are fools is also a simple expression of the freedom they have to express their views too.

As uncomfortable as the expression (as long as this expression does not take on a physical aspect) of one's beliefs or opinions may make others, the fact that people can express these views are clear indication of our freedom of expression. No one is guaranteed an audience, although in the U.S. and many other nations we are guaranteed Freedom of Speech, and also no one is guaranteed freedom from discomfort or freedom from being insulted, so these expressions of freedom are all good and valid and should be supported by both sides, because as soon as one side loses the freedom to express their views, the chances that the other side will lose theirs too increases significantly.

Iams,

A conundrum though, wouldn't you suggest, between the right to free speech and the right to be free from religious persecution?

Now, you could say how am I being persecuted if you tell me I am damned for not believing. But, if you believe and you therefore believe in the soul, then you are damning my soul (me) with your belief. Because this belief of damnation due to non-belief is endemic among Christians (as well as other religions) this surely would count as religious persecution?

So, is my right to be free of this persecution outweighed by your right to freedom of speech?

Just wondering if religious discrimination fits better than persecution? Any thoughts???

My friend grew up in a strict christian family and he was told by his parents and his parish that he shouldn't talk to non-believers and if he does then he should try to convert them. This doesn't sound like freedom to me. It sounds like dictating when people should speak and how they should speak. He wasn't supposed to have "secular" friends.

I don't give a donkey's ear what other people think about my salvation or anyone else's.

I've always been the type that goes by "Consider the source"



But good post BM

Very good post


But I am judgemental ....................just like dear Jehovah for I am made in his image

So true.

Non-believers were deemed "bad influence" but they couldn't keep me from my own thoughts & books .

If I wouldn't have read the bible in all it's "glory"I may have possibly still been christian. Little did they know that the bible was the "bad influence".

You know, I think this is where the buck stops there. No matter the Christian or Non-Christian, when someone says 'you have the right to believe what you want, but' and puts you down for that belief. That is where you show them what exactly is your right and what happens when they go too far. If someone says that I have the right to believe what I want, but......blah blah blah, well I could always shoot back that, I also have the right to not stay in their presence and listion to them, and have the right to walk away. No buts there. I feel if someone has stooped to making you feel low, no matter how they put it, does not deserve your presence. Allow their words not sink in. This is for Christians and Non-Christians. I have no problem with any faith, or for not believing in any. All around, I do not think it's the idea and things, like faith and lack of faith, is responsible for the treatment of others. It's the people within it, and each of them are different and handles it differently from each other.




Yes, but I believe Becky's Mom is saying that both sides goes too far.


You see, I don't get. The reason I don't is, if they show concern for your personal relationships, or how you do your job or shop, you would have every right to tell them to mind their own business. I think it's the same way for them to show concern for your soul. It is really none of their business.



Even as a Non-Christian, I too feel that non-Christians do not have the right to advise on the personal faith of Christians, for it is also not their business as well.



This goes with what I said to Becky's Mom.



I wish everyone could see that. Though, I think one can be guaranteed freedom of discomfort from hearing other's views, you have the right to walk away.

I encounter this all the time.

There needs to be more education on this, Christians don't realize what they are saying when attempting to convert someone.

In my own case, someone asks me if I accepted Jesus as my personal savior I say yes. Then they confront me why I'm not a Christian.

I usually say its like someone asking you (the Christian) to convert to the Jewish faith, then they become all confused over the matter, its like stepping backwards.

These people wanting to convert should be understanding what exactly they are Telling a person to do. Some religions have beliefs that the message of God has continued further by several more prophets, an of course this would seem strange to a Christian.

mhm. We have never been free to our belief's

No matter how people claim otherwise, they automatically assume that what they believe is right, hence why they believe it, and by assuming that they are right they obviously assume that everyoine else is wrong. This leads to a problem, for in believing this people gain a sort of intellectual arrogance. Many people do not show it but it generally is there in people. For instance the aethiest who is certain that the tales of gods are no more true then the various Fairy Tales of the Brothers Grimm.

Now for the most part people do not act on this arrogance but sometimes they do. This arrogance exerts itself so strongly that they will speak out against the "false" beliefs and will be amazed when anyone else disagrees, the concept that they might be wrong rarely occurs to them and when someone else raises the possibility their intellectual arrogance is threatened. Then they often lash out.

Sorry you see it this way Leo, because the Christian who tells you that by not accepting Christ you are continuing on a path to eternal death, because by our beliefs everyone is ALREADY headed that way and the Gift gets you off that path, is not damning you, he or she is simply informing you of the direction you are already headed in. It's not as if they are doing something to damn you, in fact they are acting to prevent you from continuing to b damned.

So, basically by holding my belief, whether I tell you or not, I'm persecuting you? Well, by keeping me from having my belief wouldn't you then be persecuting me? By that standard an atheist is persecuting all believers simply by believing there is no God, because that implies that believers are fools or lunatics and that is an ugly thing to call someone.

I believe that as long as this "persecution" does not take the form of physical confrontation, and just remains in the realm of ideas and beliefs, yes, the right to Free Speech outweighs the right not to be persecuted, mostly because there is no way to weigh what is persecution if physical violence is not involved.

IAMS Both sides in these situations have went over the top both blinded by their own selfish ego and arrogance

IE - A christian who is happy with their faith in Christ, who loves their faith and believes that their faith in Christ is the cause of their happiness. This same christian can't imagine being anything else and doesn't care to wonder - what if this isn't real? At the same time, the christian likes to go through life in peace, and doesn't believe in interfering in the lives of strangers.

(throwing a spanner in the works)....Along comes an non believer, they discuss faith and lack of faith, then the non believer tells this christian - I don't have a problem with anyone that holds a faith, but I find it absurd how anyone can follow something invisible, and would support all the horrible killings God has done, and discriminate against gays and so on. I believe in thinking from outside the box, have you ever thought of this?? Have you ever read up on other faiths? Oh and would you consider reading up on science / evolution? I seriously believe you should make use of your mind and open it to all sorts of knowledge...it's worth thinking about..trust me



The Christian says - What do you mean? Are you trying to convert me away from path of Christ?

The NB replies -Exploring other possible answers other than whats written in a book, I believe you should educate yourself a bit more and crawl out from under that rock and explore other theories ect and NO I wouldn't dream of converting you...all I am doing here is giving you helpful advice, for I believe you need it

So the Christian replies with - But I have done that and made up my mind that Christ is the only way for me, and the bible gives me what I need

The NB then adds - You sure aint a free thinker, for you only follow what is combined in a book, the same book that gives you rules and tells you how you should lead your life, and it also tells you what can happen if you fail this...........thinking from outside the box doesn't come with a book on how to lead your life, nor does it throw you a set of rules and tell you the punishment if you fail, but I guess you do need to be educated in order to understand, I see the bible as a cop out, a simple way to avoid using your head..no offense

Above is a made up example on how two people can talk about faith and lack of faith, and how one person can place themselves up on the pedestal and try and get the other to follow them, but at the same time will not admit that he/she is actually hoping for the christain to follow their way

Q - How many times did the non believer put the christians faith down and their way of thinking??...IMO every other word spoken back to the Christian...the NB put their God down, their bible and then began to throw open questions...ohh least I forget how the non believer chucks in a cracker insult- > I guess you do need to be educated in order to understand, I see the bible as a cop out, a simple way to avoid using your head..no offense..<--In other words, you are dumb and you can't control your own brain...in fact you are too stupid to make use of your loaf lol..and this NB that has made such arrogant statements...he/she then has the nerve to say - NO OFFENSE!!! wtf? ..

You may call it just opinions, but when they say things like - Have you considered reading this and that? & then say - It's worth thinking about - TRUST ME! <----Clearly shows how they don't give a monkeys for the Christians freedom of choice, for they have only gone and told him/her what he/she can/should do.
And to add - when they say they are only giving advice...that itself is saying - I don't like your way of thinking, I don't like your choices in life therefore I want to give you advice..............for if i felt you were doing good and I believed that your choices where fine, then I wouldn't be giving you advice, I would just respect your ways

When anyone gives anyone else advice, that's exactly WHY they do it...for they feel the person to whom they dish the advice out to are not heading in the right direction, this calls for advice!! <---one thing it don't call for...and thats the right to be left alone and have the freedom of your own faith...for IF you believed the person should be free and shouldn't get bothered with their choices made, then you would leave them be and carry on with your OWN life and you would think twice about sticking your nose where it's unwanted!!

Its only OK to give someone advice IF you are ASKED by that person..this makes it better..but if you are not asked for advice...keep your big trap shut!!! For one of these days you might find yourself with a fat lip and a bloody nose lol!!

I will disagree with the bible and religious faiths...yes I do have a right to this...but I wont go telling anyone to follow my way...I have stated so brave and often - I don't care for others following my way...and I wont try and get you to go and study other possibilities neither.....nuts to that lol

The moral of this story is - Give advice to those that actually ASK for it...ignore this, and when you find blood gushing from your nose, that is how actions speak louder than words and it spells - BUTT OUT AND KEEP YOUR ADVICE TO YOURSELF...if you are smart enough to see how you imposing your advice on to those that don't want it can put you at the risk of being hurt, then its wise to leave well enough alone ...and when it comes to your own family...well see thats different lol...for if you are a parent, you have your OWN ways of how your child should be, only you can be the judge

This is exactly what I mentioned in my opening post...people that say - ohh but we only do it to give advice and its all part of our faith <--------but too arrogant to understand that you are in fact insulting others and when you preach it's your faith to do this...then that doesn't make the non christian feel they have freedom of choice...for how can it be?? especially when they are told they are damned for their choices in life...to take the path of christ should never be made into a threat - follow Jesus or pay the price...that itself is a threat..and it dont sound - all loving...Christianity shouldn't be a threatening faith...that don't sound right at all...in fact all its doing is telling them what way to go and if they dont they will suffer

And when someone says ie - But God / Jesus don't need your worship <---If thats the case, why are non christians told they will be damned?? To worship is to accept.follow, trust and love

The christian that says they are informing you of the consequences if you fail...thats still judgmental and shows you don't care for the choices they have made

Where in the bible does it say - approach a total stranger, find out what faith they belong to and impose your beliefs on to them and tell them that if they don't follow Christ, off to hell they shall go <--I for one would like to see where it states christians should do this in the bible...maybe not word for word but as close as!!

I know that christians would feel the same if someone held a religious faith and told the christian they will burn for not follow them <--the christians would feel its insulting & disrespectful towards their freedom of choice Anyone that tries to say - ohh i wouldn't think its insulting <--they are only saying this because they believe they have the right to tell others how damned they are ect

Is it that complicated for you it must be pointed out?
YES BASICALLY by holding that belief it is persecution towards the non believer because before you even know the person, if they do not hold value to the same idol you do they deserve eternal torture/punishment beyond human comprehension.
and you cant tell me that if you knew beyond doubt that someone you were talking to was going to be punished for eternity, that it wouldnt have any affect what so ever on how you treat that person, weather its a positive or negative thing is irrelevant because that would vary from person to person.
The same can not be said for someone who does not hold value to that which we can not see or understand. They are more likely to take the person at face value and how this person treats themself. Sure they may believe they are somewhat MISLEAD but what ultimate consequence does that have? none.

Well, first of all, I never tell non-Christians that I believe they are going to hell. I prefer to just share God's love with them. If they want to talk about what I believe happens when you don't accept Christ then I tell them I believe they are separated from God through their own choices, and that separation from God leads to eternal separation from Him. But I am, thankfully, living in a country that allows me to hold my beliefs along with everyone else, and where, at least so far, people are clear enough to understand that what I believe, as long as I don't physically attack anyone over that belief is my belief to have.

something tells me you dont get the chance to do that too often though... lol
i mean.. who wants to talk to someone who believes this is what they get from not following the same rules as the idol you believe in dictates we should.
and why would you want to talk to someone who follows this same person who believes this is what I deserve for not blidly following them.

hm, yeah you guys can stick to yourself.. i have no problem with that. as long as what ever rules you make up as you go dont affect me or my loved ones in anyway, because yes if they do i see that just cause to defend my freedom.

wouldnt you agree? if not i would like to know why not.

Just wanted to comment on the above bolded part of the text.

When a person, while exercising their right of free speech & freedom of religion, tries to convert another they are actually telling the "target convert" that what they believe/don't belief is false and they should discontinue their beliefs and follow the "true" path. While it may not be persecution, it is discriminatory. And, when coupled with the phrase "you are free to believe what you want, but if you reject >name of deity< you will pay the price", the converter is actually saying "you have no choice". Like someone saying "Hey, I'm not a bigot. Some of my best friends are >ethnic group you dislike< but I wouldn't want my sister to marry one." On the surface a converter APPEARS to be saying that the unconverted have a choice; except that little phrase "but....." contradicts the first half of the statement.

Now I know that those of strong faith (any faith) believe that they are correct, in the end thats all it is: FAITH, not FACT. Your path may be the one you hold is true. And maybe it is. Or not. And maybe the path you think is false is the actual path to be followed. Unfortunately, none of us will know which is right until we pass from this existence.

I like the way you wrote that. Sure everyone is free to belive what they want. However it's my opinion, that Christians, have chose a life of being controlled. They think they are following the words of god, but have no clue who wrote the bible, or how many times it was altered, and why. Free thinkers have more freedom, then those that are controlled.

I actually had a person who tried to convert me once say: "God knows that you are lost and he wanted me to let you know that he loves me and that when you're ready to accept Jesus, all your prayers will be answered." All this because I was reading a book on Wiccan (and I know that's the reason because he gestured to my book when he said "God knows you are lost..". Thankfully, I don't get angry too quickly (even though I don't really like being told I don't know my own path because I was reading a book), so I smiled, said thanks, and told him that, sadly, I wasn't going to turn to god, but thank you for trying. If it was only a couple of years later, I would have shown him my 6-6-6 tattoo on my arm (my wedding day).

Freedom of Faith? Interesting way of putting it, don't you think? Now, living in the USA, I believe that we are allowed various amounts of freedom, and I do think freedom to believe what we want is part of that. The freedom for each and every one of us to believe what we want. So as an us, we each can believe want. I think it stops there, no matter what your belief tells you to do. I think you can believe you need to save someone and tell them what you believe will happen to them if they do not follow your advice, but that is already encringing on their freedom. Your freedom to believe, also means their freedom to believe. We are all equal in our right to that freedom. It is not real freedom, if only a few are allowed to have that freedom, right? If you care about them, then you must respect them, right? Does one believe they can respect someone, they think does not have a good sense to live their own life?

I think about a skit, from one of those thougt provoking scifi mini-series. It started with this rundown woman, with multiple kids, in a horrible lowdown messy and falling apart house, with a husband that was out of a job and sleeping off the booze all the time. One day, a man in a trench coat knocked on the door of the woman's place, and gave her a box. All it had, was a button on the top of it. The man told her, if she wanted various amouns of riches and the end of her problems, she could press the button.The thing is, for her to get all the wealth from pressing the button, is someone, somewhere, had to die. The guy left for the woman to think it through. She spent all day racking her brains about it. Should she have a heart and not press the button, leaving her situation the way it was, or press the button and further her situation. To get that, someone, somewhere had to die. She ended up pressing the button, and the guy came back to retrieve the box. Before he left, he told her, she will be getting the wealth. He left her saying he had to go somewhere, to find someone else, to give them an opptunity to press that button or not. That means, to that person, someone, somewhere, will die, if that other person pressed that button. It left the women freaking in terror.
I wonder, if you go out and try to feel you are converting and feel you are doing right, by making sure you make the person feel guilty, then someone somewhere will do the same to you. What would you do, if you get the but. It can be said to everybody.

You would be surprised. When you share God's love with someone, and they can see you are doing it honestly, they ask questions, they want to know why you can do that, and what they are missing.

no im never surprised to the large amount of impressionable people out there.. ever...far too many people willing to accept the romantic notion of the afterlife/paranormal or anything to add a bit of value or substance to their otherwise rather dismal existence. Its much more exciting than ever facing reality.
but
i guess you will answer my questions another day.

Iams,

Thanks for the answer. I guess others have already expressed what I was trying to point out but, because you believe we are all 'damned' but only those who accept Christ/God will be saved you are effectively condemning me.

This is why I said it was a conundrum. I don't wish you to change your beliefs, but I also don't wish to be a part of them. It's not just Christianity that is at fault here (if it is a fault), any faith that states there is a negative consequence of non-belief and has an absolutist philosophy, carries this burden of persecution/discrimination towards the unbeliever.

Could this include Atheism? I suppose it could if you consider the denial of salvation as persecution, but salvation presumes a punishment and Atheism doesn't suggest a punishment for the soul after death. I'm not defending Atheism here, I'm thinking out loud wondering if this could be seen as persecution???

Is there an answer to the conundrum above? I don't know...just thought it was an interesting point of debate.

You know, I can see your point, but I don't understand why worry over what someone else sees you as? Is it you are offended about them prosetylizing you, which I would be offended by, or are you worried of how they see you as, which means looking at you as condemned?

I do not think we can stop anybody from thinking what your fate is, as we cannot stop anyone from what they think about you or what they fantasize about you. If it is debated that this is worrysome, because it will effect them as they act, I am not sure. I think we can all have the ability to control how we act as opposed to how we think. I mean, someone is free to feel that I am condemned, as I am free to think they are foolish to worship something, that I do not think is there. I wont act on that, I see that it's a part of them. But, they cannot control my thoughts or feel they are anyway stopping themselves being a part of how I feel about them. You know, as long as I keep it to myself. Maybe it's my retail experience, but I think that no matter how hard you work at something, and show how incredible, helpful, and perfect at something for someone, there will always be atleast one person who will think that you suck at it.

Any faith that condemns you and tells you that if you dont follow their God you are forever damned to suffer <---in a nut shell its a threat & a demand...altogether spells no freedom ..its pure dictation and thats mot likely the reason as to why so many chose not to follow it

A peaceful religion should not have a book that builds it God or Gods up to be vengeful & mean that has destroyed anyone that didn't follow him/them <--that again is not freedom of choice...it's more like - you are damned if you don't make a certain choice!! freedom don't come close !!

So, basically, what you are saying is that the simple act of believing, with absolutely no actions attached to this belief, that you are damning yourself to an eternal death is persecution. OK, interesting, but it does present issues as I will elaborate further down this post.

But anyone who holds any sort of belief/opinion regarding humanity or life or the universe is in effect including the rest of us in that belief/opinion, aren't they? It would be ridiculously sensitive of us to be insulted or even worse feel persecuted by what any person thinks of humanity or life or the universe if it doesn't agree with our belief.

Ah, but see, from the point of view of a Christian an atheistic view of the universe DOES suggest a punishment, namely non-existence upon leaving this plane of existence. Do you see how really any view which opposes your personal view could be seen as persecuting one if one chose to be that sensitive?

Frankly, I think the answer to the conundrum is stop being so sensitive about how you are viewed by others. This level of concern almost indicates an intense personal doubt. Could it be that you are struggling with your personal view of yourself and so are very sensitive to how others may view you?

Nice try!

I'm not particularly sensitive. No more than anyone else who has a belief and doesn't wish it to be usurped by another's. I do find it an interesting point of debate though, how one person's belief, one's religion, could be intolerant of another's by default. Your scripture says your God is the God of all, but those who don't believe don't wish your God to represent them. If your scriptures stated your God was the God of all Christians then I'm sure there would be less conflict over religious appropriation of after-life authority.

Would I have the same attitude displayed towards me by those who believed in a pantheonic theology? Maybe there is room for more than one god in humanity's beliefs?

Just wanted to add, Atheists don't necessarily believe in no afterlife. They don't believe in deities, but that leaves a lot of scope for possible afterlife scenarios.

I was not trying to be funny, that is how I read that degree of concern for how others beliefs impact you.

Obviously there is since there are already a plethora of beliefs out there. You seem to be promoting a world view where everyone believes only things that apply to themselves. Aren't you, in effect, then promoting the limitation of others' beliefs?

Is saying a person's belief applies only to them limiting?

I don't see why one person's belief, one single religion, should automatically apply to all. Belief is a personal thing after all. I have no wish to change someone's belief, I simply wish to understand why people believe in what they do, and do what they do with that belief.

Yes, it is. Come on, it so obviously is. you're basically saying, "You are free to believe whatever you want, UNLESS that belief includes an opinion of what happens to those who don't believe as you do." That IS limiting! Can't you see that?

I think the freest possibility is really what we have by default today: You are free to believe what you want, even if that belief requires you to kill those who disagree with your beliefs. Of course with the caveat that since we consider the taking of another's life a crime punishable by prison and/or death, and the injury of another is also a crime punishable by prison and/or death, the free practice of your belief may lead to the limitation of your physical freedom and even the end of your life.

I believe that faith is meant to be a personal thing...but when it's thrown in someone else's face, it no longer becomes PERSONAL



Neither do I...I think it's wrong to pass judgment and tell others if they don't follow me they are damned <---if you are willing to do that, then I guess if you attended a funeral of a non christian...you would say -- Bye friend, I wont be seeing you again for you are now on your way to suffer in hell...sigh so long!!

Sound harsh?? IMO YEP!! It can insult others and at the same time be classed as a threat..

Iams,

I understand there are religions, like the Abrahamic ones, which preach an absolutist theology. There are also religions, like Hinduism, various 'Earth' religions (my apologies to those who may be offended by that term, I mean no disrespect), etc, where the worship of any one deity is not seen as affecting others.

Looking back through history, we see monotheism is a fairly new invention with regards religion. Would the ancient Greeks, Romans or Egyptians have said I was hell-bound for not worshipping any of their gods? Pantheistic religion seems more tolerant towards other beliefs, even the lack of belief. I have no fear of any retribution from your deity, I'm simply curious as to why absolutism arose in religion and a little irritated that it implies I am damned for not believing.

Sorry I missed this ...thank you I do appreciate this

It would be INCREDIBLY harsh to say that. However, I have grieved over friends who died and were not saved, because I am not sure of what their eternal situation is. The reason I say I'm not sure is that I can't with any degree of justification say that I know God didn't come to him in his last moment of life and give him an opportunity to accept His gift. It may have happened, it may not have happened, I don't know. But I've never been to a funeral where the person who died was not saved and had Christians make comments like those, and I have attended funerals of non-saved people before.



Why does it even irritate you? Unless somewhere in the back of your mind you harbor some doubt as to what you have decided to believe, this should not matter to you. Why do you care what others think will or won't happen to you, especially when you believe them to be deceived?

It irritates me in the same way that someone who calls me ignorant, racist or any other slur would irritate me. It is not true of me and I would object to being called so. Also, I do not say you are deceived, I have never denied you your faith, simply asked you why it applies to me. The answer appears to be because you believe it does, which is the same reason you object to my belief denying your right to impose your faith on me.

Why do you keep implying I am insecure? Are you looking for converts? If so I'm afraid you won't find one here.

The reason I keep bringing up insecurity is because that's how you're coming across. I am a first-generation American. My family came from Mexico. I grew up being called everything from "wetback" or "mojado" to much worse things. I let it bother me until I was about 16 or 17, when I realized that I am not an illegal alien and whether someone chooses to call me that or not does not make me so. I also realized that by being hurt or irritated by this I was giving these people power over me by allowing what they thought of me or what they called me have any impact in defining who I am. So, for an adult to be saying they are irritated to the point of feeling they are being persecuted simply because someone else believes they are on a path leading them to eternal death seems to me to be an indication of insecurity.

The 'persecution' was on behalf of all those that would be assumed damned by any religion, not me personally (although I used myself as an example). For your peace of mind let me reassure you I do not believe I am damned as my own experiences leave me with the knowledge I am not. Perhaps we are not all you, Iams, and don't have your detachment about such things. I get irritated, maybe it's just a character flaw, but it's irrelevant to the debate.



Could you answer this question for me please, Iams. Can I 'opt out' of your belief without imposing what I believe on you? I don't mean, can I ignore the consequences you believe there is to non-belief but, in your opinion, can I not be judged by your god because I don't believe in Him?

OK, but it still comes off as the concern of a bunch of insecure people. I mean, according to Islam, I'm an infidel and will not see Heaven, heck according to the Catholic Church I won't be in Heaven, (and they're Christians too!), and it doesn't bother me one bit that these people believe this. Of course that may be because I have more than mere belief on my side and KNOW this not to be true so it doesn't bother me. Maybe that's the actual issue here. Is it that people who have no certainty of their future are bothered that others not only have a certainty of their own future but of YOUR (in a collective way, not you specifically) future too?



You're opting out now Leo. Unless you actually believe that because I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins and I am now saved and you have decided not to accept the gift you are still on the same path we were both on before really does have some impact on your life and how you live it. Why would it bother you? Is it knowing that I believe this? Does it bother you if some villager somewhere in the heart of the Amazon believes that he and his tribe are the ONLY people on the planet? Why? Why not? After all, it's a belief that has direct impact on how he views you.

To answer your second question, given what I have learned from studying the Bible and talking to different theologians, no, you do not get to opt out of the final judgment just because you are actively choosing not to believe. It's not a "this or that, or the other" kind of situation, it's a "this or that" situation.

My apologies, Iams, the second question was simply me trying to clarify what I meant by 'opt out'. It wasn't intended to be a separate question, but that wasn't clear.

So, I can't opt-out of your faith without imposing my own on you? Fair enough, I've no wish to do that so I'll have to accept that you consider me damned for all eternity.

I apologize for having taken your clarification as a second question.

No more than I can opt out of your belief that when I die that will be it, there will be nothing more. Whether you tell me that you believe I specifically will die and simply cease to exist or not does not change the fact that this is what you believe. And once I know that is your belief then I can no more opt out of being the subject of the outcome of your belief than you can opt out of being the subject of the outcome of my belief. But I still don't see what the issue is, or how what you believe will or won't happen to me has any impact on me if I choose not to subscribe to your belief.

Interesting BM. Good post. As far as my opinion...well I agree with the "non-christian" side. Merely because a lot of what Christians believe could be attributed to delusion. After all, the document they consider the base for their faith contradicts what they believe...odd eh? You'd think they'd notice.

Coming from a 15 year old who has gone from being a rabid Christian who did not know what the bible said but loved to harass non-Christians in chat by going in to convert everyone, to a Christian who also used the dark arts "to fight evil" despite knowing this was wrong, to someone who may or may not be a Jew all in less than a year, this is funny.

Ok I believe in God and Jesus. BUT I am not going to throw my faith on other people if they don't want it. But just because you believe in God does not mean you can't believe in other things or other peoples religions. Like for example me. I am currently training to become a white witch. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in God or my faith in any less than others. And for other christians to tell non-christians that they are damned is not true to me. If you do not accept God as your personal savior then that is you right and your choice and no one can tell you differently. If someone asks me about God then I would send him to my Preacher. Not me because I don't think Anyone has the right to spread Gods word but Holy men. They know more about it than anyone and you could just be confusing them. So I agree with BM both sides are very judjmental and it's not right. Your right is your right and no one should try to convince you otherwise UNLESS you ask.

True, but I also think that one needs to remember, that some do not view non-existence as punishment, probably even more of a relief.




Only to those in that belief, and I would think they have that right.




I do not know if this helps, but I had bought and read a book some years ago, that was on white magic. The theme of what the book was also saying, is that white magic is essentially Christianity, and miracles, and believing in the power of God. I mean, if you think about it, black magic is attributed to Satan, right? So wouldn't white magic be also associated with God?





That is what I believe too!

Whats the difference between saying it to them when they were still alive and saying it to them when they have died?? IMO you are still saying it either way, you still believe in it too dead or alive...just because it seems disrespectful when the person is dead....don't mean its not disrespectful to the SAME person alive and well....

I couldnt think it let alone say it...cuz lets face it...no one really knows where they go when they die...some people only live on a hope!!! but I do know one thing, if I died and there was NO after life....I wont know will I?? I'll be dead and gone so it wouldn't effect me

IAMS a lot of teenagers pick up christianity at that age.....I know lots of girls and boys that took up religion at the age of 14 - 20 and onwards....some drop out...some take an interest

Some can't make up their minds...and some swop and change a lot...<---they are the ones you pity...because they are lost...but big enough and ugly enough to find their own way in the end

Some don't find faith in jesus till they are into their 30's or 50's lol...you can change at any time

Ohh and before I forget IAMS...I am a strong believer in KARMA...what goes around does in fact come around....you seem to have said this same thing to COI a lot...you mention his age (as if it were important) and you go on how he changed his mind.....I have seen others take a stab at him on your forum....a couple of adults have bullied COI and tore his posts apart on your site...and guess what?? that behavior is allowed..fair enough...but its still bullying......all because he dropped christ...when COI was just as arrogant to non-christians before he switched...you DIDN'T have a problem with his arrogance then did you IAMS?? no I think NOT.....one of these days you could find yourself in a similar situation as COI...and find others tear your posts apart

It's not a nice thing to see...but what goes around surely COMES AROUND...ohh and.................NEVER SAY NEVER...

Imagine if it were your kid on a forum and adults tearing him apart...how would you feel??

Wow son, i have seen Child come a long way from hatred to anyone that wasn't as he beleived, including threats etc... to a young kid that has grown in tolerance and openess...Child is one I am watching grow....
I've seen him try really hard to address things he justt couldn't stomach and have the courage to explore his truth and let go when it wasn't bringing out his best..

Very well said

In general though...people everywhere tend to act this way if the other person doesn't ie - Support the same team as them...arguments pop up and in many cases end in death as a result
I have heard guys over here say - If you support MUFC then you are weak, glory hunter, dumb and blind ect ect...WHY?? because the other person doesn't like their team thats why...

If your opinion differs from another...7/10 you will get put down and feel insulted

This is just what religion does to people

If you are following the thread, there is a PRIME example of it going on right now lol...it clearly proves my point