I realize this is a very delicate subject, so keep in mind that there will be no spamming, flamming, or bashing tolerated in this thread. Anyone who does not follow this simple rule will be reported.

Well, today I was driving to the City Centre of my town and there were some people Protesting about Abortion. They had signs that said things like:

"Jesus Forgives"
"Abortion Kills Children"
and
"Adoption Is The Right Path"

Though I know they are demonstrating their rights, it kind of bothers me, because it must be kind of daunting for a women who see those signs and is thinking about getting an abortion.
So I was just wondering what everyones veiws on the subject of abortion were and/or the practice of demonstrating religious veiws in public.

I myself am pro-choice and, I guess I would be considered pro-abortion aswell because I don't see an over all problem with the procedure, and I also believe that a women has the right to decide if she is ready for a baby or not.

Click to view attachment


Discuss.

-Joel.

As much as, yeah I think it must be "daunting" to women who see those signs and are considering abortion, that is what those petitioners are aiming for, I suppose. I hate censorship and I am glad that we are given the right to free speech and the right to petition. However, that said, I am pro choice, and no matter what their signs say, my stance will not change.



As for the "Jesus forgives", well there you go- their beliefs have been given to them from their religion, no thinking required. I'm glad that I don't have a default setting for my morals.

As long as they dont start their petitioning outside of abortion clinics, then well let them have at it.

Also, where they are saying "adoption is the right path", I like to think of it this way- if there is one less unneeded child from this town to be adopted, maybe adopting famililies will start adopting from countries with starving, needing children for a change. There are more than enough children who need to be adopted, and many people who are willing to adopt- I don't think that is the problem here.

I agree with abortion - it is a medical porcedure, and it is only performed on zygotes and embryoes who probably do not consciously understand the process of dieing or fear, hence it does not cause any anguish and is humane.

Still, I'm deciding whether or not that picture is tasetful enough...

Yes, thats it- I think that there isn't anything wrong with the procedure of abortion. So many people have this very wrong idea that the majority of people who want an abortion are drugged up teenage girls who think nothing of having sex unprotected. The fact is that many different types of women and girls look to abortion in times of need, when it isn't the itme for them to bear a child. And the baby has not been born yet- it has not experienced love or life, so you aren't taking anything away from it. People often argue that you are taking away a "potential life", but if you are arguing that, well then we might as well just have sex 24/7 so as not to waste all of the potential life swimming around inside us!

I agree that it is good, that we have the freedom of choice. I think it is alright for the petitioners to do what they feel is right. Like the other poster said, as long as it's not outside a clinic and trying to impede on women's freedoms to go in. Just as long as these anti-abortionist feel they should petition what they feel is right to others, they should remember, that pro-choicers also have that right to petition what they feel is right.
You could say that I am a pro-choicer, but I also think it's very complicated, considering the varying procedures of abortion and the varying reasons people have to get an abortion. Plus, I also think, if the anti-abortionist need to send their message to pregnant women, I think they should include on their signs, messages to the fathers too. Like, please help out the mother of your child in her need, or take responsiblity as well.

The thing is, those people that are displaying those signs are not the ones who may have to give birth to that child and bring it up. If the woman in question had been, for instance, raped, then she is having the abortion for a good reason - the placard holders are so quick to judge and yet know absolutely nothing of the circumstances that bring some women to the clinics, they probably think such females come to an abortion decision easily and go through the whole thing without a care in the world, they (the ones with the signs) know nothing and they would be better off finding something else to do with their time.

i do not agree with abortion. if i sombody kills a pregnant women they get charged with two murders....according to pro abortionist the fetus isn't really alive until how ever months they caculated and all. why should my mom have a say in weather or not i should be able to live or not. the womens right! what about the babys right......ohh yeah they are not really alive.

i'm in the camp that says if you don't want babys just don't have sex.....that's what happens when you have sex, some times it happens no matter what kind of protection you are useing. you don't want a bady don't have sex at all. if i'm playing with a lighter and burn my appartments down should i be let off from what i have done. no i would have to suffer the consiqences of my action. the peoples apartments i just burned down had know say weather they wanted their apartment burned down....but i did it and it's okay cuz it was an accedent.

the womens right! what about the guy. let see a guy has to do something to get that baby up there. if the women never wanted a bady she should have never bumped skin with the dude. what if the guy wants the child......it's half his. back to the burning down example.....i share an apartement with my girlfriend....if i she don't want it no more and burns it down is it her right......it's half mine. oohh yeah i forgot the baby shows up inside the women by itself.....it's evolution.

to poor for a child! don't want a child to grow up with a "hard life boo hoo". listen i've been poor before as a kid....it's not the end of the world. oohhh i never had an ipod...i hate life....i had to work and save up to by myself a car without my mama buying one for me....CRY.....i had to wear goodwill cloths.....MADNESS. it ain't so bad. what that is is nothing but the parents not wanted to work to support the life they just made. many MANY great people came from sucky ass lifes and go on to do something great and be somebody.....don't be a punk a$$ for lack of a better word. and there are nice loving couples who want kids who would be glad to adopt your brat which when it finds out it's adopted might come looking for you to meet you....can't face your own child?

the fetus isn't alive and can't feel pain or anything, it don't know what's going on! last time i checked this sounds like half the population over 75.....half are already brain dead. since our parents have a say wheather we get to live or not...i say we should have a say if they can live or not. if they get to brain dead and confussed in thier old age why deal with them.....they don't know what the hells going on anyway....abort them....oooppps does that sound terrible (start from top and read rant over agian and you might get it)

I’m pro-choice but not by much. I generally don’t agree with abortion and I think as technology advances the abortion time limit should be reduced from 24 week, because a baby at 24 weeks can now survive on its own (obviously with the aid of technology, but I mean independent of the mother). Here’s a baby born at only 22 weeks and survived (I think its genuine anyway, I'm not familiar with the case).
http://www.bloganything.net/459/baby-that-...e-size-of-a-pen

Plus those signs in the OP are pretty tame. Just be grateful there were no aborted foetuses shown, which is just downright disrespectful.

They did that when I was in college, I was walking with my daughter and had to cover her eyes so that she didn't see REALLY graphic pictures. That made me so angry!! And a friend almost got into a fist fight with the protesters since she had had an abortion, and it was the right choice. She had been on drugs at the time, and was mentally unready for a child.

You have quoted many examples, however, you have missed:

Pregnancy via rape - this would not have been consensual sex, hence why it is termed rape, so to say "just don't have sex" is obviously not applied in this situation
Chemotherapy needed for a woman with cancer, if she does not have such treatment immediately she will die - baby is aborted for the obvious reason
Abortion performed because for the woman in question to have a child, it could be a danger to her health - whether mental or physical - and such medical conditions may not have been brought to light until after the woman became pregnant

So taking the above three examples how do you suggest a better alternative?

Not everything is black and white and in the above three examples it might not be an option to have the child at all, not all abortions are due to someone who just couldn't be bothered to use birth control or who slept around with all and sundry and I firmly believe that in the vast majority of abortion cases, the decision to have an abortion was not taken lightly.

The topic has been updated with a poll.


Yes, I am also glad that they didn't show actual body parts from an aborted fetus, as it is very disturbing imagery. They did however have a picture of A fetus, which was intresting in its own right.


@GodofCats: You make a good point about murders being charged for two murders, but one of the things is that the murderer(s) lawyer has to be able to distinguish a age of the infant inside the mother's womb, if its age appropriate, they could probably get off teh charges of killing the fetus. If not age appropriate it is rightful that they are charged with the murder of two people.

Just one of a few interesting facts about sexual violence.

Click the link to see more.......

NCDSV

In principle, I am against abortion. I think it is the height of selfishness to abort a pregnancy because it's inconvenient. Don't want a baby? Fine, don't have sex. That stops any accident. This gets a little shaider though when dealing with such things as rape. I don't know if there's an answer to it (if there is, it definitely isn't an easy answer). In its simplest form, I would still say that the baby should be carried to term. Why make a baby pay for crime? It wasn't the baby's fault, it was the criminal. In saying that though, I would not begrudge it if a woman decided to abort a baby as a result of rape.

However, in practice - I fully support the existence of abortion clinics. Making abortion illegal will just push the practice underground into illegal backyard clinics which would possibly cause more deaths than the current situation through poor hygiene and bad practice.

So while I am completely against abortion and if I was asked, I would tell them strongly and straight to the point that I believe it is wrong and in a sense, murder. But I would not make it illegal, that just causes more problems without solving any.

What a terrible world we live in sometimes.......

~ Regards, PA

I have very mixed feeling's about Abortion, I happen to think it's ok for a women to decide what she wants to do and that no one but God has the right to judge her, But at the same time i happen to know for a fact i myself could never have a abortion and my heart break's for any women who feel's this is the only choice she has....

for the rape, alot of people think i'm crazy or whatever but i still don't feel the fetus should be aborted. BEFORE EVERYBODY GETS ALL CRAZY let me explain. first, if the women doesn't want the child of her rapist, which i don't blame them if they don't, the child should be put up for adoption. the reason i feel this way is because simply desposing of the fetus is making someone (yes fetus people are people to) pay for a crime they did not committ with their life. secondly this is just my beliefs....everybody is born and is living for a reason, wheather they were born natrualy, by accedent, or in deed rape.

now, the obortion due to medical dangers is one thing i say is the womens right. if the women might die from the pregnancy and or birth then that is all up to her. if she wants to risk her life for her child to be born or not, it's her choice.

as for the women and parents with the health problems, agian back to the rape issue. if one or both parents can not handle a kid mentaly or physicly let the child be in the care of somebody else compitant. wheather other family or a foster parent.

Hypothetically when the fetus grow's up and hypothetically decides to find its birth parent's, how do you think the child would react whenit finds out its mother was raped, and his father was a rapist. I would feel pretty bad.

hypothetically why would you feel bad? i mean i would feel extremly bad for my biological mom but i'd just be like look i'm fine, i'm a good guy, i like my life, and i'm not a criminal like my dad so you have nothing to be afriad about me i just wanted to meet you once. then if possible i would find my biological dad and go to his house or prison and punch him in the face. that would be it. it's just like a condom rip. excuse my laguage i don't know what terms are allowed on this site but what if you found out you were born do to a condom break and you were an accedent? that happens all the time....and that's one detail i can do without knowing though just due to the distrubing picture i paints.
rape agianst condom rip. i mean condom rip is comical but the rape is serious. like i said before wheather due to natrural, accedentental, or rape you're still here and living your life.....someobody killing you before you even get a chance to live life is surely and utterly ludacris (i didn't know how to spell that word so i spelled it like they way rapper ludacris does). you could be killing the future peace maker or makers of this world....and isn't that what everybody wants in this world, especially atheist. no matter what circamstances we are born into you are denying one's potential that could greatly help or even save this planet. to say somebody life is worthless because of the way it was concieved is well.....LUDACRIS

But that brings the topic of destiney into this subject. How, do you know someone will have potential if they don't exist. You just can't. Its like the question "If a tree falls in the forest and nobodies around, does it make a noise?" Its impossible to say, when you take it literally.

I myself am pro choice mainly becasue i think we all have the right to choose . However i also believe that the gestation period of the woman should be lowered. the baby at 22 weeks for instance imo thats way too far to consider abortion. most people know within 8 weeks they are pregnant so although i know its not a light decision if abortion is gonna be an option for them they should make it as fast as possible so they can get it done as soon as possible once they find out of pregnancy .

I also believe in this day and age there is no need for victims of sexual violence to really need a abortion ,the morning after pill can be taken to prevent this and you dont even need to mention the circumstances . this is such a sensitive issue thugh and there are so many grey areas that i dont think anyone can really say there is a yes or no answer . I was asked a few weeks ago the question if i had cancer and i was pregnant and the only way to save myself was to abort the baby' what would i do ? well if i was childless at the time for me i would have to give chance to the child and take the risk , however i have three children now and if i was to get pregnant again and face this quandry i would have to save myself because my existing children need me and i have to put them before my own needs . but that would be the hardest decision i had ever made. so circumstances can effect ones choice and it all comes down to choice really . once we start to take peoples choices away thats when we will have real problems

ss79

Toachy subject, people must have the choice. Circumstances may be a deciding factor, the state of the person in the situation, all things like this need to be taken into account. We cannot say with certainty this or that, but rather every case is different. And every one is allowed to have their own opinion, that is what makes the world different

nobody knows the destiny of a person, especially one not out of the womb yet. alot of times it does have to do with the circamstances it was born into (poverty, bad parents, bad neighborhood, even bad luck). but even the circamstances in which one was born has nothing to do with great things he or she might be able to do. you see that type of inperational mumbo jumbo on t.v all the time people talking about "i was born poor, my parents were drug addicts, we ate out of dumpsters, i was in jail" and all this kind of stuff only to have went on to make good lifes for themselfs and others around them. so basicly while you don't know the destiny of a person there's no need to give up hope on that person especially one that didn't even get a chance to life out it's own potential wheather good or bad.

Not that I am not paying any attention to your feelings about the killing of a fetus, a life, but there is another aspect I wish you take into consideration. As a woman, who has had two wanted pregnancies, both deliveries have had their share have pain. The first one, is always the doozy, in most cases. My first pregnancy's labor lasted 18 hours straight. The pain was incredible. I still find it amazing that I went for another pregnancy. Maybe that is why I waited four years later to have another. At that time of the first pregnancy, I wasn't allowed an epideral, I could only have demeral, and even that was adminastered later into the labor. If there was any chance I could describe to you how my first pregnancy's labor felt to you, Bill Cosby's comedy routine, or Carol Burnett's bottom lip over the head description kind of cuts it. To me, it's like taking an extra-strength blender, with extra sharp blades up there, and turning it on to puree. If I could explain the feelings of what I could do, during that feeling, would be like reaching over and splatting you to the wall. My poor husband, during the first labor had to endure, twice, being bitten. I am not kidding. I think I smacked him a couple of times too. Though the reason he passed out twice, was because of something else. Really! The delivery scene in the movie "Beaches" would better describe it.
You see, I wanted my children, and I regretted it only when I was going through that. I then only told you about the pain. The other stuff, forget about it, you would lose your sanity. Think about the emotional stature of a rape victim going through the labor of a first time pregnancy. I am not saying, hell yeah, more reason to kill the kid. I just think you need to better understand the situations more, and not go saying what you feel that a rape victim should do. I find that insensitive.
I see how you saying that child would be still paying for it, yes, that is how it is. Rape is horrible, that is the reality. The outcome is just as horrible, that is a reality. Whether the outcome, and how it effects those involve, you shouldn't put your black and white thoughts in there, without understanding what it really means for those involved. I'm not being crazy about it, I'm showing you the other side of the situation.

There are a few things that always disturb me about this topic.

Why this "choice" thing? People make it sound like it's similar to choosing onions or no onions on your burger. Or it's a "right", like your right to express your opinion or your right to happiness.

It's more than a choice. It's a serious thing to contemplate, and should not be minimized as it is by liberals that care nothing about anyones welfare other than their own.

It's not a simple right like it's made out to be either. Abortion ends a life that contains 2 sets of genetic material. If a woman "chooses" to have the child, she has a HUGE effect on both contributers of genetic materials lives, his and hers, as well as the childs.

If a woman has the "right" to choose, the man has the "right" to have a voice in this decision too.

This is a medical procedure, and should be treated as one. In the event of rapes, incest, severe medical complications there is no reason that this MEDICAL procedure should not be an option.

Abortion as birth-control is wrong. It's just bizarre, and invalidates fathers and violates their rights.

i thought about all sides on this issue, i'm not a person that just spits out my opinion without thinking about the other sides involved. i'm not closed minded at all, i consider myself a REAL open minded person meaning i look at each side and deside for myself which i think is right. i hold views on both the conservative and liberal sides of this world.
now, two things here. first i still stay with my opinion that the child is paying for a crime it did not committ. you said that's how it is. well if my dad rapes somebody should i have to go to prison? i had nothing to do with it. if your dad committ some brutal crime, should you be sent to death row for him? the issue here is the baby is inside of the rape victoms womb and she will have to endure intense pain giving birth. i'm sure a first pregnancy due to rape would be frightening for the women.......which brings me to my second point

you said you only regretted the pregnancy only when you were in the labor. how do we know that the mother won't be attached to the child after birth. you here the saying the bond between mother and child is the strongest bond, it's unbreakable all this stuff. let's say a rape victom gets pregnant from the rape and desides to have the baby but she don't want it she wants to give it up for adoption. she goes through the horrable birthing process and wished she would have just aborted this kid. when that baby is born all of a suddon maybe the mother would have a change in feelings toward the baby and deside to keep it and raise it because after all it's hers and she brought it into the world.

I do not think that this how pro-choice is looked at. I often get the feeling, that pro-choice, connected to abortion, is something that does deal with agonizing contemplation within it. I think the main thing is, pro-choice is what is a right to the individual themselves, and I'm sure it's not that simple in thinking that it's a black and white pro-choice situation.
Like you said, and I'm sure that everyone feels that way, or atleast most everyone. TO think the majority are simplifying it to that, I think is insulting them.

I believe every ounce in our body contains genetic material,
Now, you are making it sound like the man didn't put any thought in the act itself. I'm not disagreeing with you the man has a voice, but it seems the responsiblity is left onto the woman. The man also has the responsiblity as well, and if he refuses to accept, I think he loses that voice.
I'm glad you feel that way.

Granted, there are those who uses abortion like that. From my experience and research, very little do. The rest who have had abortions, it was more serious, including someone in my family. She also believes that abortion as birth-control is wrong. The situation behind that pregnancy was bizarre, and if your are talking anvalidating fathers, the majority of the pro-abortionist tend to invalidate the responsiblity of the pregnancy. It does take two to act and supposedly take responsiblity, and most of the time, the fathers do not. It is so easy for the women to be told, don't have sex, but not one man is told that. Why is that?

I do not think you are giving me or anyone pro-choice and considering an abortion, any credit. How do you know, that is what someone is thinking, but feel that the abortion is the only choice. There are no easy answeres to anything, and a lot of people know that. THere is also no easy way of knowing that the early parts of a pregnancy shows life yet. I have so many people battle this, and I haven't found any of these battles actually end with a resolution. Granted, it may seem there is an innocent victim here, but do say that the mother does not contemplate this, is actually insensitive to her intelligence. She is already an innocent victim too. Why should she also have to go through what a rapist does to her. It's a painful situation, one that you and I do not have an easy answer for. I believe an outsider does not have the authority to dictate what she should do with her situation!
I'm taking it, you are male. I guess it's hard to actually explain my thoughts during that time, you know, extreme pain! I wanted my children, but during that moment, I wished I adopted. The pain was so great, it was causing irrationality, which I knew myself would pass. It was intense, although. I find this a pathetic reason. We don't know if there is a bond, and considering that there are a lot of women who have not recieved that bond after having their children, then it's not going to happen. I personally think it has to deal with if you really want them. Of course, I have heard of that bond. I wanted to become a mother, and I wanted to know if I felt that afterwards. I did, but I think that is because I wanted to have children, and I want into motherhood with a mature outlook and responsiblity. Those who do not, do not feel this bong. I have seen many instances of this happening. If that bond was a sure thing occuring, there wouldn't be reports of children, unwanted children being abused.

IMO, Abortion is murder, thus I am anti-abortion. People have free speech and should be allowed to speak their speech on whatever public premise they choose.

I agree with this, because if you look at it this way.

Some/most Christians save themselves (other religions aswell) for their spouse so that they can make a child together, but tehn if that women gets raped, imagine how violated she would feel, why should she have a connection with a baby that she does not believe should be rightfully hers?

You may not feel the foetus should be aborted because of a rape, however, you try telling that to many rape victims, I dare say they would probably try to rip your head off.

You do not understand, but that is not a crime in itself.

Many rape victims would be totally unable to continue with a pregnancy whereby the baby was the spawn of some monster that had violated her. If it didn't send her mad in the beginning it may just do by the end of the nine months. Rape is a horrendous crime and if it were made illegal to abort such foetuses, then believe me, without a shadow of a doubt, it would all go underground.

You go on about the right of the foetus, however, the right of the woman already living also has to be taken into consideration and as she would have suffered terribly, she deserves some compassion and those that stand outside abortion clinics spouting off without any real understanding of what has really gone on, literally, have no idea at all and are in no position to judge another.

I will say this, I thank God I have never been in the awful situation of some of these women and the one thing I am damn sure about is that they don't need anti-abortionists waving their placards in their faces when they go to the clinics to make them feel even worse, they have been through enough already. In fact, by God, do these people standing about outside even have an inkling what it would be like to be raped?



The bolded bit above is so true The morning after pill, in my opinion is an absolute Godsend and it is, by far, the very best way someone who has suffered rape or any other heinous sexual crime to get rid of any potential unwanted pregnancy.

Exactly, thank you.


Unfortunately, there are those who want to ban it. There are those, who should not be working for such a career, pharmacist, who refuse to disperse it, even if it was prescribed by a doctor. All they can think of, is their belief system and going by that.

That is so selfish, it astounds me. This is my body. What I do with it is up to me. If someone can tell me that they will refuse the ability for any woman to abort to take a pill to make sure that there is no pregnancy, then they better put all drug addicts in jail. What they do is illegal, and since a woman has no rights over what she does wiht her body, then drug addicts shouldn't either. Is that a ridiculous statement? Then so is a man stating that he has tried to think from every side on this subject and put himself in the woman's shoes. There is no way you could put yourself in a woman's shoes and can see the situation from her point of view, all the repercussions, all the possibilties. You can try to empathize with her, but the emotions and the circumstances involved are completely different for each individual woman. There are no two situations exactly alike. I thought we were in the 21st century not back in medieval times where women have no rights. We are no longer property.

Personally, I believe that humanity exists from the moment of conception. (This is not a religious belief, in that it was a logical position I developed before I "discovered" religion.) Everything which makes a person human exists from that moment (which is why we call them embryos)

Given this, my next logical step is that an unborn child should have all the rights of a born one, particularly the right to life.

The one exception to this is based on the fact that for a long period the embryo is dependent on the health of an already living person who also has rights. Thus the unborn child's right to life is dependent on the woman's prior right to life. Not wealth, happiness, or even the pursuit of happiness. If it comes down to the woman's life versus the childs then she has the say.

Every other argument for abortion can be negated by changing the attitude and structure of society. Thus they do not present forceful, logical reasons for ending a life.

We just assume a woman will have to care for an unwanted child, but in many societies this responsibility is shared; and certainly in rich western societies there is room for all children to be cared for. So even the child of rape, if otherwise healthy, should be given a chance at life.

It says something about the values of a society where it is believed that a woman will suffer more trauma from having an unwanted child and giving it away, than from aborting an unborn child. In particular it makes clear what the common belief is about a child before birth ie, it does not have the same emotional/moral value as a child only minutes separated from its mother.

We shouldn't have been! My thoughts there, if that is alright. Well said, glorybebe! Well, said!





I think your opinion, made some very good points. I also find them very mature and logical. Granted, a child of rape even, should have a chance of life. I was wondering, how should society help the mother, who was raped? I think, to give the child of such an act a chance of life, we should also make a point to help heal and help the mother, so she can deliver a healthy child. The emotional stature of the mother, during the pregnancy, I do believe, makes a very big part of how the child is too, during and after pregnancy. Should we help her during this time, or not care if she has to deal with it or not?
I'm not saying you don't agree, or do not feel this. On the contrary, I feel you have great consideration and sympathy for both. I am just wondering, how to help both the mother's and the child's right, when it is from rape?

I believe that unborn babies are separate and distinct humans. (that's pretty much unarguable, from a biological standpoint)

For a mother to say "I can do what I want with my own body" ignores that she's also treating another human as her "property", something she can dispose of as she wishes.

As far as "abortion is fine b/c they're too young to know what's up", this would allow 'getting rid of' an 11 month old, as long as you used something like Chloroform so they didn't feel any pain... If the argument is invalid for a one year old, it's an invalid argument for the unborn as well.

As far as rape, bad things happen. There are consequences, and it hurts to see a young mother suffer like that. But we also know that an abortion is killing (separate and distinct life), and to kill the unborn b/c of a rape will help nothing. We have many programs where a woman can go to get help...

Just a few thoughts...

JS

I'm just curious, what programs? Are they affordable and accessible?

There is no way in the world I would want to carry a child for 9 mth due to a rape! I could not live knowing the child I was carring was by a man who raped me NO CAN DO! As for pictures being carried by protesters I was driving with my two small children some years ago when we saw protesters with there HORRIBLE PICTURES my little boys asked me what they were pictures of I told them they it was for a scary movie that people did not want the movie theater to show. I did not know what to tell them but I sure as hell was not going to tell them it was pictures of dead babies they were only 5 and 8 yrs old. If they want to protest fine but pictures No think of the small children that might see them. Yes GOD has every right to judge a women who has one he has the right to everything he's GOD and he judges everyone for everything anyway. Abortions should never be used as a form of birth control that is WRONG. A women who has 2 or more abortions should really be spayed!

Christians love to protest abortion, saying it's murder and God loves the little children. Well, I find it fascinating that 50% of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion. And what of a woman's monthly cycle? Does not a viable egg--a potential human being!--get flushed down the drain?

That makes God, IMHO, the biggest abortionist of them all!

Respectfully,

Ssean

IMO they are not being professional, they should stick to their jobs and do what has to be done, putting aside their own personal feelings. If everybody, in all different types of jobs, did something similar to what some of these pharmacists are doing, countries would come to a standstill.


Abortion is nothing to do with God, it is to do with the person concerned. They make the decision to have an abortion and only they know why.

Regarding spontaneous abortion, if 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, that could be due to the fact that there is something wrong with the embryo - nature's safeguard if you will. Of course, not all defective embryos are miscarried, some do go on to develop and the babies are born with certain illnesses and genetic defects. When it really comes down to it though, the vast majority of miscarriages are a mystery, no-one knows why it happened or happens, but it does and it can be extremely distressing for the parents concerned. The same goes in the awful event of a stillbirth, my mum had a stillbirth and took many, many years to get over it, it is very sad.

As for the monthly cycle issue, thank God this happens, otherwise there would be a sight more than 6 Billion people on this planet if every viable egg were fertilized

I'm not touching that one LF!



Yes, but God creates all life according to Christians. Abortion is wrong. So if God is responsible for a baby coming into this world ... Well, I needn't explain further. As for your mum ... My sincerest sympathies.

Most kindly,

Sean

Dude, I'm going to add that to my list of idiotic arguments for an "evil" god. That's just stupid. Sorry. It's another one of those nonsense arguments, designed to show how clever non-believers are and how dumb believers are.

As someone who has seen an abortion take place (I was in the room with a friend), it is difficult...well difficult to put into words. She was by no means having a joyous time.

Would I ever have one? No. But I would never tell another woman she couldn't.

Thanks watchful. If I haven't developed some maturity by now i probably should have, and yet, as i approach 60, my favourite role model remains Calvin, from Calvin and Hobbes

You raise an excellent point, which is a practical weakness of my argument. It would take both money , human resources and time. Because as a society, abotion has become an easy option for many social problems and because in many societies such as Australia abortion on demand has become legally and socially acceptable for all intents and purposes, Societies are reluctant to invest these resources.

First the physical, social, and mental health of the mother has to be protected; through individual and group counselling , therapy and education in factual terms.

Later the same has to be done for the child, but primarily it has to be loved and nurtured for its formative years, There are people out there prepared to do this, but of course they too need to be carefully vetted and fully educated/counselled in their responsibilities. This is a governmental responsibility and should be organised at a governmental level, rather than left to institutions or organisations.

Evidence exists that while loving parents are the best alternative for a child, loving non parents are better in the long run than non loving parents (for loving you can substitute caring, concerned and responsible. The effects are almost identical)

Basically, it is society's prime duty to most protect those who are most vulnerable. Given a limited access to resources, those most at risk need to be helped most. Society needs to be assisted to re-evalute its values as well. We still tend to attach emotional blame to the victim. Instead, we should be empowering and removing the victim status, and certainly not in any way shape or form attaching a stigma to the mother or, as often happens, to the child who is a product of the rape.

Some people argue that abortion is a much easier, and achievable, solution. While this may be true, that does not make it ethically or morally right.

First, what a polite response from you, Mr. Christian. So much for that love thing. That's just hypocritical. Sorry. Second, that was not the intent of my argument in any way, shape or form. You're reading into something that is not there. Third, it was a question that I asked myself during my Christian walk many years ago--that my prayer group and college room-mate often discussed (And you're talking to a guy who used to roll around with an "Abortion kills, Jesus Saves" sticker on the bumper of my electric wheelchair). I guess we were just stupid then for trying to answer a troubling question.

Sean

Good topic, and it's interesting to read everybodys views on it!

Personally, I'm pro choice - however, I think an abortion should be the very last option, and it is definately abused a lot these days. Now, I can't remember when the foetus starts to have a heartbeat and lungs and all that, but I think that up to 12 weeks it should be ok?

Accidents do happen - my brother in law and his wife, ended up pregnant despite her being on the pill and using a condom, so go figure...

Either way, I can't say whether I would have one done or not as I've never been in the situation (yet), but I like to think that I would have the OPTION if I needed it. Be it medical, rape or whatever.

I am pro choice seeing that it is the womans body and her right to decide whether to have a child. That said though, there are limits within which the choice should be solely the womans. If after 24 weeks she suddenly decides that she doesnt want the child I would have issues with that as she ewould have known (usually) that she was pregnant and should/could have aborted it before it was viable outside the womb.
The other issue concerns the availability of RU 486 which appears to be severely restricted in the USA. My feeling is that this should be a far more widely available option
Final issue is the question of the potential father. Since it still takes 2 to make a baby what say should he have in the decision to abort/carry to term?

I'm pretty much anti-abortion, because I understand that in many places you can get a 3rd trimester abortion. You can get an abortion any time up to when the baby is born. So a baby that very likely would live at 35 weeks, could be chopped up and vaccumed out. So to abort during the 3rd trimester is really killing a baby that could reasonably live on its own.

A 1st trimester abortion doesn't even need a procedure a lot of times, just a pill. If it is all or nothing then I vote nothing. If we get a range, then I vote for 1st Trimester only.

As for picketers. They are using their Free Speech. Some of the Anti-War sign wavers who are always marching around in front of the city hall here make me sick with what they have on their signs, but I respect their right to demonstrate.

i am against abortion but i am also against anyone not being able to decide for themselves what is best in their lives...until you walk in someone else's shoes you do not understand what is happening in their lives....many of the abortion procedures amount to nothing more than murder of a child and i do not condone this action at all....but i also do not condone my opinion overriding the needs of others, who are responsible for their own actions in the end....since i am not female, i can not imagine what they think and feel about this issue when faced with it....but i will support what each one feels is best for them, whether i agree or not....i am sure it is a difficult decision for them and most of them do not take it lightly....but above all, it does not mean that they are bad people, whores, killers....it means that they made a mistake in their life and carry the burden for the rest of their life....and they don't need others pointing fingers and treating them like dirt....understanding is best....for those of you who can't bring yourselves to understand and show compassion for a woman who goes though this then,

Let he who is without sin throw the first stone....

i hope you hit your own self in the head first....

randomhit10

Well said!

Sean

Out of interest, do you know which places would allow a 3rd trimester abortion?

I am not aware of anywhere that would allow a 35 week pregnancy to be aborted I must admit.

Again, and hopefully for the last time, though I doubt it...I am NOT a Christian. That's why I feel free to say what I said. A "real Christian" as so many here are fond of saying, wouldn't do that. I'm not insulted, don't worry.

And my point is, that it's like the anthropomorphizing of animals. Ascribing HUMAN emotions and reason to something that is simply not HUMAN. I think it's foolish behavior, and way too simplistic to be included in any argument or debate as complex as this.

I'll try to state where I come from a bit clearer.

I think abortion sucks. No one should ever get one. No one should ever NEED one. Unfortunately, some people DO NEED to get one. Abortion as birth-control is disgusting, not from some Christian point of view, but as a human point of view. The horrible circumstances that arise and cause a NEED for an abortion are equally repugnant (inherent or pre-existing medical issues aside I would say).

It's not about rights, or a choice, or "My body". It's about responsibility and humanity. Religion has NO place in it.