I know this board stretches all over the world, but I think this is a topic that effects everyone, no matter what country you live in. So I thought it would be an interesting idea to show your opinions on and debate if you feel like it. So, here's the topic:

Should religious doctrine/churches/any holy book (bible, koran, etc) have any influence on government laws?

Should there even be a seperation of church and state?

For Americans, do you think that the current state of affairs is truly following the idea of the seperation of church and state?

And any other ideas anyone has on this whole idea.



~buddharat

Yes, there should be total separation of church and state. Religious law has the potential to oppress others that do not follow that religion, and thats wrong.

I think for the most part, America does follow the separation.

I believe that a government and religion should be combined, but set up in a way where the religious leaders of the government couldn't abuse the religious aspect to gain overwhelming government power.

I believe history shows us that religion is never more dangerous that when it is involved in governance.

The current state of affairs? Not really. Faith based cash hand outs from the white house, we have a christian 'Taliban' growing because they're bigots with influence that is currently going against human rights, freedom and the values of this country. Tax free status is being abused and that same status is using it's local cult members to push a political agenda.

Somethings I would like to see more directly addressed in the near future because their bigotry and anti-americanism shouldn't be just allowed to go on against the values of our nation.

I think seperation of church and state is a must because it was in our founding fathers wishes to not let any majority hit down and keep silent the minority because this country was founded on freedom for all and not freedom for some.

What about those of us who don't follow any religion? Where would we be represented? Such an ideology will always lead to problems for others especially those like me who are considered religious minority.

Religion should never have a say in any government and the reason is because they would then be able to influence decision making. While I don't have any reservations for religious people in government many do great jobs when they keep their personal lives and political lives separate.

Nations like Iran are a perfect example of what happens when religion and government merge.

Total separation....religion hyave anything to do whith government.

Total separation should be the rule. That does not mean that religious leaders cannot express an opinion about politics, but it should remain just that: an opinion.

Separation of church and state should have been the 1st commandment. That’s why the US was founded so people could worship anyway they wanted. Anyone that thinks the two should be combined should move to the Middle East and live in a country where the government is based on the majority religion. Can you say Afghanistan’s Taliban, Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc.?

I think there is way too much religion leaking into government. Look at the current presidential candidates all of them have to declare their religion or people will not vote for them. I’m pretty sure you have to be some sort of Baptist to be president in the US now days. Most Americans vote based on religion rather than who is the best person to do the job, that’s how we ended up in the situation we are in today. Bush uses religion all the time as a basis for his decisions, and look where that has gotten us.

Religion has no business in government, and government has no business in religion.

It is going to whether you like it or not. If the legislators are influenced by religious doctrine, that influence is going to find its way into laws written by the legislators. Expecting otherwise would be like wanting a capitalist to forget The Wealth of Nations while writing laws and voting on them.

Yes.

Could certainly be better, but then again, everything could.

I agree with you completely about separation of church and state, but that really wasn't the reason people came to US.
In the New England colonies, it was precisely the opposite. The Separatists from the Church of Enlgand thought mainstream religion was /too/ permissive and not guided by god enough. They came here for no other reason but to found theocracies that forced everyone to worship the same.
In the South, the first (and earlier) colonies, like the two failed ones at Roanoke and the one at Jamestown, were made to ensure the English got there fair share of North American wealth and resources.

--Jaylemurph

It's simple, the old religions are too barbaric(Islam/Christianity) and the new ones are too wacko(Scientology) to have a part in government.

Of course another downside is that they all know they're right, which doesn't allow any room for democracy.

So atheism is minority now? Since when is that

Actually, Athiests are still in the religious minority. Look at any other poll of the breakdown of religion in the US and they all say the same thing. More people believe in some form of god then do not. So yes, we athiests are in the minority.

Ever here of the pilgrims?

The pilgrims are the seperatists he's talking about.

There's a lovely little 19th Century novel called The Scarlet Letter that pretty much sums up the tolerance of the founders of New England.

--Jaylemurph

Depends on how one defines an atheists

I wonder how many of those are educated working people who build the future.
I doubt much.

They probably asked a lot of old people and housewives

lack of belief in one ore more gods (any kind of supernatural being that has the power to control the universe or part of it)

What religion would be best. Muslin, Christian, Jewish, Buddhism, Native American, Pagan etc...? Maybe we could have a country like Iran would that work. In the State I guess we should go with Native American, as that was first religion in the Americans.

Religion has never worked as a government. All you have to do is take the time to look at the countries with official religions to see that. No matter what religion you install everybody loses. Look at middle age Europe with the Catholic Church in charge. Many people came to the US because they were free to follow their own religion. My Mother's and Father's family came to the colonies for just that reason. My Mother's were part of founding the first Baptist Church in the colonies. My father's family founded a Quaker Church. Both families came here looking for freedom to worship as they liked. People who don't know history are doom to repeat it.

You would probably be surprised.

I'm really curious to know, how you came by that fact? Now, I always believed, and was raised by the knowledge that it was to have the freedom to worship their own faith, without persecution. Knowing what the colonists came from, which was around 16th, to 17th century England, and where the witness of England breaking from the main church, (this opinion coming from my research and my knowledge of the time of Henry the 8th, and the subsequent rule of his children), and then the main national belief system changing everytime there was a new King or Queen. The most famous of the persecution of other faiths over one, would have to be during, (this is also from my knowledge and what I found out from my interest of this time, I could be corrected on other instances in history) during the reign of Queen Mary the first, Henry the 8th's daughter. A staunch catholic, like her mother, she made sure that the main belief system was catholic, and anyone who didn't believe and practiced catholic, were considered a heretic, and thus dealth with. I believe Queen Mary, was nicknamed Bloody Mary, for the many deaths that were caused under her rule, when they excuted the so called 'heretics'.




I really think so, because of what I believed we learned from such situations, I mentioned. If there were going to be belief systems taking part of our government, there would have to be one over others, and thus the minority would then be forced to hide, and or punished if found out.

Also, a lot of belief systems work with laws and beliefs that were from older times, that have no basis with a modern world.

It would be interesting to hear views from some of the regular religious friends which frequent this forum.

I find the current situation in America quite disturbing its seem more and more Christian Fundamentalists seem to be gaining more and more influence over politics and education. I'm not from America so I would be interested in hearing others thoughts on this especially Americans. I think my signature sums it up.

Should definately not be combined, history shows us what happens when that occurs. One only needs to look at the cause of almost all the wars in history to find out the cause behind them, which is religion (beliefs). Why are we fighting in the middle east right now? Because islamic terrorists attacked us, and why did they attack us? Because their beliefs told them so. Why were so many governements overthrown and revolutions made? Because theocracies and religious texts gave the leaders power and people finally realized that that was not right. I'm not saying every single conflict is caused by religion or religious beliefs, but quite a few acts show that they are.

I think Religion should be given a voice in the matter, as is consistent with freedom of speech. But ultimately, the State should make their laws based on the State, not on the Church. Separation is the only real way to go. Unless you want a dictatorship where anyone not of your religion is a second-class citizen....

I'm in America. I find it highly disturbing too.

Being an american, I can say that I am more then nervous about the current state. Especially when we have a president who says things like these:

"I wouldn't pick a judge who said that the Pledge of Allegiance couldn't be said in a school because it had the words 'under God'' in it. I think that's an example of a judge allowing personal opinion to enter into the decision-making process, as opposed to strict interpretation of the Constitution."
--Second Presidential Debate, St. Louis, October 8, 2004

"We need common-sense judges who understand our rights were derived from God,"
--As quoted in ""Understanding the President and his God"

I don't really see a problem with Christians in government and education. It is their country and school system too. There are lines that should not be crossed, but that's why we have a court system. If the other Americans don't like it, find someone you like who can win elections.

Lines are being crossed especially in the US...

When schools start swapping evolution in class for creationism and putting In God We Trust on the money as well as the 10 commandments in court houses etc that line is crossed. Fact is there needs to be a total separation to ensure that minorities such as the atheists, jews, arabs, gays, and just about every other religious and non-religious minority you can think of are represented equally.

Atheists make up about 5% of the US yet one would never get elected as most Americans feel they are immoral heathens, so for atheists they don't have anyone who could equally represent them in government.

Bottom line here is that everyone has the right to believe what they want but they should not have the right to bring it into the political arena. If religion is kept out of the political arena then no one would feel like they are being hard done by. Politicians also reserve the right to their personal beliefs however those should remain personal and not skew policy making.

No one says you can't have religion they just say keep it out of government as there is no need for any religion to have 'special' representation in government.



Religion should be kept at home and in your place of worship not publically influencing elections and policy making and forcing pseudo social issues unto the public that not everyone agrees on like abortion, gay rights among other issues.

Great post AG!

There is no doubt that the religious right (Christianity) has a political agenda as well as a firm influence in all aspects of the US government policy and decision making. Our politicians pander to this group because they will never win an election with out their votes. The problem is if this particular group has its way after they finish taking away the minority non-Christians rights away they will go after other Christian sects that have different beliefs and take their right away as well. Then we will be just like Afghanistan living under an extremist religious groups rule.

How about those who believe in Mammon, and what about drunks? People like me are very spiritual as you know

I'm not sure I'm correct here but didn't Bush senior once state that he didn't view athesists as citizens! If thats true american polititcs is on a downward spiral! Evryone has the right to religious freedom the same as having the right to vote! To the americans who read this is this quote true and if so what was the response by the general public?

Well, the short answer is that I'm a historian whose primary area of study is theatre of the late 16th and early 17th Century. I hold AB degrees in Theatre, English Literature and Art History, all of which depend on a detailed knowledge of more standard, socio-political history, an MA in Theatre History and Criticism and am now attempting to get my PhD in Theatre History. My thesis was on sexual politics of the works Christopher Marlowe and how they were at odds with period religion and politics (inasmuch as those two things were different entities in the 1590s).

That's a long way of saying I've studied the time period a lot.

Also, I grew up in Manteo, NC, the site of the first English colony in America, so even before I was born I was pretty much inundated with Elizabethan history.



Well, history is very often simplified. How many times have you heard that the American Civil War was about slavery? It /was/, but it was tangled up in so much more that merely saying it was about slavery is tantamount is tantamount to skipping the truth altogether.



The time period you talking about is (as much as these things can be teased apart) from the creation of the Church of England in 1534 through till the accession of Queen Elizabeth I in 1558. The first colonist to America came in 1585, when these troubles had been greatly quelled (though not solved).



Yes, this happened, and it was because of this the Puritans movement began to rise.
What you're doing, I think, is using your own standards to describe what happened then. First of all, there simply was no idea of religious tolerance in this time period. None. For anyone. It's why the people who believed differently from the government had to be killed. Secondly, you need to understand that religion and government were the same thing, not two separate entities.
With this idea, the Puritans arose, and they were fanatics. They left England because Elizabeth was willing to compromise on issues of faith -- the people who became the Pilgrims wouldn't allow for tolerance and left the country, in order to form communities were no-one was allowed to practice another religion. You can read the original documents of the Plymouth and Boston colonies and see they weren't founded so that pluralism would be practiced.
In fact, when a man named Roger Williams said that maybe religion and government shouldn't be so closely linked, he was thrown out of Mass. colony and then out of the Conn. colony. He founded Rhode Island as a result. (Maryland was also founded because people of a different religion, the Catholics, simply weren't allowed in New England and Pennsylvania and New Jersey because nobody Quakers around).

And like I said, the Southern colonies were all mercantile colonies, that existed purely to make money and provide resources. I don't think any of them have ever made a claim to fostering religous tolerance. Later on, the Anglican church was made the official church of all the Southern colonies, but because of the lack of transportation and urban development (and the slightly more accommodating nature of Anglicanism) there wasn't too much bother about it.



There were minorities that did hide.
I'll leave you this: the Salem Witch trials do not reflect a society with a great deal of religious tolerance.

--Jaylemurph

Very nice credentials! WHich I know, beat my regular 'I'm just fascinated with it' bit. And it's good to know. I'm just surprised, that I didn't know a lot of that.




I understand, and I agree with you. I keep forgetting, mostly with the many books that come out about the Titanic, which I am also a buff of, that new stuff does come out about, (believe it or not), and it was more than the iceberg sank the boat.

I had a feeling, that the time of the colonist coincided with Queen Elizabeth's rule.


Well............. *Shrugs*


I'm in denial??? *Looks sheepish*

Yeah, I keep forgetting that.


Well, I remember reading various different articles on various individuals during that time, had their battle with the government over religion of some forth.

That makes sense, due to my experience of things.


Ooooooooooooooh, good point you got there!

I think I came across more harshly than I meant to -- and certainly more long-winded.

My whole point -- and yours -- was supposed to have been even if we didn't start out that way, American history has moved towards increasing religious toleration.

--Jaylemurph

as long as it is fundamental creationism


fullywired

I can't say it's not completely false, but it is very harsh. There are large populations of practically every religion in America (except maybe Yarsan), and the government has yet to make any of them illegal or to /publicly/ adopt one.
The creeping growth of fundamentalist christianity of a apocalyptic stripe in the government is scary, though.


--Jaylemurph

Well, I do agree in some sense, that there is more of a religious toleration now, then in the past twenty years. As a military wife, even in parts where it's more prevelant, various beliefs are accepted more than before. Where I was constantly questioned and lectured about living in a secular family when I was a kid, no one would dare to do that to my kids.
Granted, I think it does vary in various states of the USA. I still have a bad taste in my mouth at the memory of a customer, in the bookstore I worked in New Jersey, who asked about various bibles she wants, and I said with apology I didn't know about it. She started getting hysterical about it and yelled at me to read my bible. Now one, as an employee, I couldn't yell back. If I did, I would first tell her, do not and never owned one. Two, this country allows all faiths, and I would probably come and tell her how unpatriotic she was for doing what she was doing. Back in my homestate in New England, everytime I tell customers looking for various bibles my religious background, well that's ok, and they educate me, when I ask them, what the difference is in each type of bible. And they only tell me what is important, so I can help the next custmoer. Granted, the types who were intolerant in Jersey, were few and far between. Living on the base, and making friends with people all over, including Texas, all of them had their own belief systems, but we all accepted each other. I guess there is your example of religious tolerance.

I think what is happening now, is maybe a bit of a backlash, where it has been so secular for awhile. I don't think it will last, even within our government, because a good many, I believe would not allow it to harm society. My thoughts there, if it's ok?

This is my opinion based on what I have seen and read:
The current state of affairs is definitely not following the idea of separation of church and state. I have read it from a reliable source that the Govt. is infiltrated with people that take orders from the leadership of one particular religion, and they seem to already control the executive branch, the judicial branch and have strong influence over both houses of congress. [Many of them pretend to be members of other religions.] They also control the news media and entertainment industry and intelligence organizations.
The antichrist system is raising its head in preparation for the coming world dictator prophecied to come in the bible. The system that will bring him to power is in place and getting stronger.
If this were an unmoderated forum I would go into more details. Because this forum is moderated, I won't name names or sources.

of course not. wouldn't want to be able to verify your claims, would we?

"reliable source" my aunt fanny

lol.

Don't you know that we mods all work for the evil government Joey. SaRu is really one of the Men In Black lol

and I thought he was the white wizard........

His ways are many and mysterious.