just want to say something about wicca (pagans). they are offen thought of as evil, devil loving monsters. i can tell you this is not true. sure, there are some who do, but there not wicca, there black witch, 2 differant things. wicca is more of a way of life. the god and goddeses refer to the seasone, and there are two as thy belive male cannot servive without female, and vise versa. catholics dont like them because they can tell the futer, among other things, but does that make them any differant that the profits from the bible. wicca is the oldest religion, and has taken on many names. catholics scared people into there religion by sying the wicca would destroy them if they did not worship god, and people belived them. wiccais mainly used to help people, make them better and tell them what they want to know. but then you have the catholics, making things sound worse than they are, attacking wicca just because of who they are, and if you ask me, that sounds alot like terrorists attacking other people and blowing them up just for who they are. and anyway, if this god does exist, he will simply forgive them in the end.

So this thread is about how do two different types of delusions make peace?

would you like to explain that?????

not really qualified to

i dont belive in the gods, but i like wicca as it is sooooo intune with the world, they basicly worship earth

why not become a biologist or a geologist?

gahhhhh, stop telling what i want to do in the futer. lol.

hey I'm just going with the flow, no harm intended

Sad but true. I am a Christian but i'm not a wicca hater like most of them, thats because I actually took some time to look into religion. Christianity is wierd that way, we claim Jesus came to promote peace, but ever since Christianity has become a Major religon it has mostly done bad things for mankind. any religion thats not Christian is just the most evil thing on earth many Christians think, heck they even burned other Christians at the stake only because of slight differences in doctrine, take the Anabaptists for example. They only thought that it was not right to baptise babies that couldn't make the choice for themselves, but no! if you want your child to be baptised when he or she can make their own decision we're going to torture you and then burn you at the stake.

It's not really about Christianity, it's how people dealt with things at certain times (well still do, but not so often and its mostly hidden) , Christians have gotten equal share of torture as they had given to others, but people have been burned and tortured for political reasons too, so it was just the kind of mentality that was popular in those days, in religious and secular circles.
Just less than century ago, we had concentration camps which had little to do with religion in which they burned children alive.
So it's not like torture is something specific to Christians and middle ages. There have always been concentration camps and torture, and we will probably see it happen many many times more in the future. It's just something in human nature.

Just a quick note. Wicca isn't the oldest religion in the world, but it is the first widely recodnised nature religion. All the religions originated from various types of shamanic religions that changed even within tribes. From those dreamers and early doctors and wise men and women then slowly started to come more widely known religions with Wicca being barely the first.

Others that might have gotten a firm stand before it are Woodoo, Egyptian mythology, native American religions, early gods of Creece (Gaia and so on), Viking's gods and ofc Asian religions. No one can have certain way of knowing which ways became firm first, but wicca is one of the first ones and it has the same basic rules than all the original religions before more political ways of religion. Which means of having both men and women amongst the gods or great spirits and having some sort of laws of karma. As in.. what ever you do it'll all come back to you much bigger. And none of the early religions never owned the nature but respected it as the handwork of gods and the cradle of their very lives. Any mistreatment always caused ppl to die. Gladly the old religions haven't been forgotten

Since those times ppl got more arrogant and religion changed to more arrogant too and more fitting to the ruling system of a human. It was often a way to set laws more than anything spiritual. And when ever some one was/is declaring a holy war it isn't about religion at all.. it's simply about power. Hope their karma will catch them soon.

Many nature religions has had a bad name from the more political religions but not because the ppl really believed so.. they were Forced to believe so or die. All around the world pretty much all the nature religions were hunted.. and it wasn't because of "believing to the wrong god" really.. it was too just about power. Healing was a very highly respected and productive business.. and business was really hard. Much more hard than these days.

Did you know that woodoo also is a nature respecting religion and those using it wrong are "black witches"... and that there aren't really so many of the black ones.. it's just TV that made us believe so.

I myself would like a world of true freedom of religion. Everyone would have as their birth right to believe what ever the hek they want.. as long as they don't hurt other ppl with it ofc.

I like your point also (i dont know much about wiccan) but isnt their rule or some one elses rule that magic shall only be used to help some on never hurt some one. I think thats what the wicth told me. somthing along thoses line

Why worship the Earth? Thats patronizing, it didn't create us, it tries to kill us constantly, we are just a growth on it, like a melanoma. It's just a rock, if we ruin it through global warming or polution, it's just going to bounce back. It doesn't need our worship.

I'm Wiccan by blood, but by faith I am a Christian. And I hate how afraid everyone is of me. Afriad by Holloywood and what other reglious people say about Wiccans. People always think that they are evil and will hurt you if they tick you off just a little.
And having other people telling me I'm going to hell for what's in my blood. It just isn't right. It's not exactly liked I asked, I was choosen for it.

you talk as if you agree with them, 'wiccan' is just as much of a religion as christianity or any other faith.

also to do with the hollywood thing i was reading on a wiccans website and she said that the two worst things that ever happened to her religion were,

buffy the vampire slayer

and

charmed.

wiccan can be anything it wants to be, or as you said "wiccan". some people were born into, and didn't want it. some did, some came to find it. and i laugh in the face of buffy and charmed!

I'm not going to be liked for this, but Wicca isn't a religion, believe in witchcraft if you like, but Wiccans to me, just seem to want the religious protection other religions get, including other, equally fake ones such as scientology and mormonism. It's just people wanting to belong to a special group.

I've heard this from other Wiccans, that most people fear them. Maybe you should wear less black and silver?

Your right your not going to be liked for your remark. Have you ever been to Wiccian ritual, Fish? It meets the the criteria for a religion by definition. It is not an old religion in its present form. It was started in the 50's by Gerald Gardner (1884-1964). It has many old aspects to it which came from many sources.


Many people don't understand Earth religions. I don't worry about it. All you have to do is explain it to them. If they understand fine. If not, oh well, it is their problem.
When they tell me I worship Satan I say," I am sorry, but I believe Satan is a Christian demi-God, his is not in my pantheon."


(Definition of Religion)

How the hell is one "choosen" (sic) for it, or have it "in their blood"?

By being born into a Wiccan family. For example, one of my penfriends can trace her family tree back through 6 generations of Witches and she is embracing the family tradition, but others like myself who are not born into it find the religion through research and are drawn to it. That is being 'chosen' for it in my belief.

You know, now that I think about it, it isn't a religion - but in that case, neither is Christianity since you could argue the same points - 'Christians' are just people wanting to belong to a special group since they have low self esteem. No offence, but the statement you made is really bigoted and ignorant to you. You didn't just put down every single Wiccan, but you also discounted our religion. We are kind enough not to make idiotic comments like you just did about whatever your beliefs are and would appriciate it if you did the same for us.



Because of it's destructive force. That is the simple answer.
The Earth is actually quite amazing when you think about it. The seer power in a thunder storm, or the destructive power of a vocano. Yet at the same time as these the forces, there is water which gives us life, and the trees which are beautiful in their own rights. We worship the Earth and the Goddess and God because together they created us. And in actual fact, if you believe in progressive evolution like I do, the Earth did create us. It gasve us sustinance to live on and it was from the Earth that life forms were created so that they would eventually become human.
As for it bouncing back, it is attitudes like that that are going to destroy it in the first place. The Earth is not magical. It can not be ressurected if we kill it and if we kill it, there will be nothing left for us to live on. Wiccans believe that the Earth and all life on it contains living energy, meaning that we can try to harness that energy in order to send forth healing and protective powers.
And finally, your last staetment: It doesn't need our worship.
Neither does the Christian God or any other god for that matter. If they are all so all powerful, they don't need us to stroake their egos by singing their praises or saying "lord just please lord I pray that lord you look after us and lord..." You get my picture. Wiccans do not worship the Earth nearly as much as the christians worship their God and Jesus.


I really don't mean any offence by what I have said, but these are my honest oppionions.

Please....I don't know if you meant it like this, but just in case you did, I must correct you, many (not all) Wiccans seem to think that Wicca is an umbrella term for Pagan, when actually Pagan is the umbrella term, please do not refer to all Pagans as Wiccans.


IMO, there is no black and white magic, black and white witches, or anything like that, anyone or anything can be used for "good" or "evil" depending on the intent of the person, I know many people who practice demonolotry (the worship of demons) and are very nice people. Also, as for 'devil' worship, if you look into the origins of demons or daemons, and even the origin of Lucifer (outside of Christianity) they are not evil.


No it is not, Wicca is about 60 years old. Paganism is very very old, but the Wiccan religion is about 60 years


I agree, Catholicism is a very bad religion, I don't even consider it a sect of Christianity, though they believe the same base, there are many key differences. I don't know if I would put it as bad as terrorism, but I do agree that many fundies do go too far, and have definitely done some bad in the past.

I have to say I don't think I have ever quite agreed with your views before, And I don't mean anything offensive by that just making an observation. But I do agree with your point here, Always a pleasure.

I am so glad you pointed this out. It is really sad to see people professing to practice a religion and not know the basic facts about it. Not all pagans are Wiccan (not by a long shot!)

I also disagree that you can be Wiccan "by blood." It is not an ethnicity. It's a choice of religion.

you can thank Catholicism for that!

ahh it amazes me how they could completely change how the majority of the WORLD views an entire group of people... just another knotch on their belt of curruption and lies.

Worship is often for the benefit of the worshipper, not the person or thing being worshipped.

From The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell, with Bill Moyers, Doubleday, 1988:

In your sacred space you get the "thou" feeling of life that [earlier] people had for the whole world in which they lived.

The [American] Indians addressed all of life as a "thou" - the trees, the stones, everything. You can address anything as a "thou," and if you do it, then you can feel the change in your own psychology. The ego that sees a "thou" is not the same ego that sees an "it."

I agree with this as well Brad. That's why i am interested in learning more about Wicca. I don't see how people can deem it as evil there is nothing evil about it at all.

If you go back a few pages in this section, you'll find that I had already tried to clean up the misconceptions on Wicca, I even posted info in an attempt to help thoes who didn't understand, understand, but it's the same ole, same ole, Christanity and Catholics believe that Wiccan's are the cause of all the chaos in the world and in their lives, because they do not want to take responability for their own actions,

Truly, I mean no disrespect, but truth hurts, and thoes who hold true to their pagan roots, tell the truth. I too am Pagan by blood, it runs deep in my roots, and there is no difference in Shamanism (Native), Druidism, Wizardry, and Wicca, Christanity... it's all the same, it was mankind that seprated it by scattering it through out the world, for thoes who have mixed cultures such as myself, should not study just one side of the square, you have to look at all sides.

Wiccan's do more than worship the earth, they understand it, connect to it, protect it and respect it, and it's not just earth A Wiccan studies, understands or respects, it's everything from animals, plants, the universe (Space) other planets, trees and people... All these things are connected to one another, it's called 'The Web of Life' and within the web of life, the law of attraction applies - postive energy attracts postive - negative attracts negative, Two negatives don't make a postive and one must balance the postive (male) energy and negative (female) energy in order to to be a whole... Yin/Yang

There should be no one sided coin to a Wiccan, but just like every other religion or mankind in general, there are bad seeds, and it's not the Wiccan's who have turned to the study or practice of Sorcery or Satanism, Some Wiccan's don't believe in Demons or the devil, it's thoes who edge out God that believe in the devil and lately I'm finding a lot of Catholics are intermixed with the study of Demonology which is also connected to Satanism, if you study Lavey and Crowley, you'll find where demonlogy plays an important role in their belief, so why would a religion whoes totally against Wiccan's because they believe they are evil, be studying evil? These are the question's one has to ask him/her self before placing judgement upon anyone or anything involving spirituality or paranormal, like my grandmother who is pagan use to say; "It's not the dead you should fear, it's the living"

Wicca is nothing more than old pre christian beliefs, before Christanity reformed it's self, and it wasn't even the Christans that send over 10,000 pagan's to their deaths, it was thoes who feared what they truly did not understand. That's why Wicca became a religion, but in truth, most Wiccan's such as myself do not consider themselves religion based, because The God and Goddess are a universal force that lives in everything and everyone, and we're all connected like a large spiders web, it's called Quantum physics.

Do Wiccan's believe in Demons?

No, some Wiccan's are intellegent students of psychology, Science, Medical, Art, Poetry, Writing, philosophers, and Historians and can tell the diffrence between myth and reality. Wiccan's do not rely on superstitious belief that Demons have supernature power, nor do they care or fear a demons mythical name, because most Wiccan's know the truth, maleviolent spirits are just Fallen angels (People who have fallen from the grace of God)

Demonlogy

Maleviolent spirits do not carry such names as Baal, Bael, have some respect!!!! Maleviolent spirits do have an earthy name, and would appreciate being called by it, no wonder they get angry and attack.... These not so kind spirits did at one time live on the earthy plane, and are violent? Because they were angry, tormented souls that passed on to the other side and took that torement with them. They are people who have died suddenly or tragicly due to Suicide, Murder, accidents, or have suffered from some type of Mental illness, or simply carried negative thoughts, fears, emotions over to the other side.

Are Wiccan's Psychic?

Yes, most Wiccan's are and thoes who are consider their insight to be a nature gift from the god and goddess, and this is where the misconception begins, a gift just like any talent has to be brought to it's full potiental and sharpened or you lose it over time. Some Wiccan's perform ritual's to cleanse their spirits, and open their insight and some perfer to just spellcast because it takes less time, some just meditate , or do yoga, some use tarot cards, ouija boards and crystal balls to sharpen their gifts and gain insight and some don't do any of this,

but however and what ever they do Wiccan's are peace loving people who offer their services to thoes who need it, weither it's healing (Herblism, doctoring, nursing, mid wife), Knowledge (insight into dreams, life, ghost, spirituality or life) or help others to take better care of the earth (Enviromentalists), or help others to understand the negative and postive forces of life (Psychology) or help others to invent or build things (science, Mechanic, Engineering etc)

Sorry my wife is Wiccan & You might wish to do ALOT more reseach of what Wiccans believe. I myself am a Druid. Do you know what a Pagan is?
A Pagan is a very broad term for any religion that does not worship the Judo-christian God. Wicca is NOT the oldest religion it started in the 1950's by Gerald Gardner who has written that he joined an existing Wiccan Coven in 1939 the coven to let him write a book in 1949 about Wicca in the form of a novel, High Magic's Aid. He carefully revealed a few of the Old Religion's beliefs and the historical persecutions that they endured.

He was writting about Witchcraft not Wicca Garder put alot of his own belifes into what Wicca is now & not all of it is true. I could & might go into more detail but PLEASE do your reseach before you get over your head!

Blessed Be to you and your wife,

Although I respect that you and your wife are Traditional Wiccan, of Gardnerian and Alexandrian lineages, there are some Pagan's that consider themselves Wiccan's and to some practioners there is no set rule to what can or cannot be considered Wicca, Most Wiccan's out side of a coven, study more than just Wicca, some combind the teachings, beliefs or practices of Shamanism, Druidism, Christinaity (Angelic Wicca) Etc, this is called Wizardry, but that's the wonderful thing about being a solitary Wiccan, they can study many fields, many writings, cultures, etc and take what they want, and toss the rest, the only rule of thumb that a they bare in mind is the 3 fold law, but truly is this not a law everyone should follow? why limit ourselves to just one side of study? leave that to religion, I know Wiccan's who believe in a Judo-christian God, but they believe that there is a goddess to and that's where the battle lies. Mordern religion does not except the concept of a goddess, and thoes who do are wrong...

Pagans

What is AngelWicca?


AngelWicca is new tradition that has now
become a popular form of worship in the
Wiccan/Pagan circles. It is the practice of
calling in the Angels as well as the other elements
you might normally invoke during a gathering.
Many people are finding out that the Angels
can bring much power and unity into a circle.

ANGEL WICCA

Shamanic Wicca

So what is Shamanic Wicca? This is a term that should define itself, but due to the large difference in interpretation of both Shamanism and Wicca, it can mean almost anything to anybody. It should definitely be broken into it's component parts in order to come to some degree of understanding. In the broadest sweep of the definition, Shamanic Wicca is a denomination of Wicca. It is Wiccan philosophy and practice combined with Shamanic techniques and wisdom.

Druidism & Paganism

Druidism is definitely a Pagan religion. "Classical Druidry" is what we call the religion of the ancient Druids, who worshipped a pantheon of Gods much like the Greeks and Egyptians and venerated the earth, the sun and the moon and observed the movements of the stars. "Modern Druidry" falls neatly into the category of Neo-Paganism because it has earth veneration in common with other Pagan traditions, and because it is a mystery religion - one where you have to progress spiritually through the religion in order to learn its secrets, as compared to a "revealed religion" like Christianity, which has public scriptures.

Companion for the Apprentice Wizard
by Oberon Zell-Ravenheart

It is Gaia (earth) who inspires the founders and informs the practitioners of every nature-based spiritual or magickal practice including Wizardry and Wicca.

I am curious, Fish, what are real religions? What do you consider the appropriate qualifications of such?

Sorry but my Wife is Wicca & I am a druid while we fall under the same Pagan umbrella term we don’t
Worship the same way. Yes we both give honor & praise the Goddess ( Gaia) My deity of choice is the Green man. I do not follow Modern Druidism I try to follow the old ways as much as possible which is hard considering not much is known about Druids.
Druids have always been and still are religious, not only believing in, but also knowing reincarnation is real. Furthermore, Druids know there are many Gods and Goddesses. One cannot be a 'Christian, Wiccan, Moslem or anything else' and a Druid. They will contradict each other." I do not believe that you can be a Pagan- Christians for instance. Christians believe in one God where Pagans believe in more then one God. Wicca is a neo-Pagan based on pre-Christian traditions of England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.


Gerald Gardner was the first to come into the public eye with a description of what modern witches were practicing. His information came from the traditions of a coven called the New Forest Witches, and from Ceremonial Magick and the Cabballah. He began what is now called the Gardnerian Tradition of Wicca. From Gardnerian came Alexandrian Tradition, and a host of other offshoots that today number in the hundreds. He also though it some of his ideas into the mix but Wicca & Witchcraft are too different things. You can be Wiccan & not pratice Witchcraft thats your choice but Witches do pratice the craft.

The same could be said for Paganism not all Pagans pratice Magick they feel that it will upset the balance that nature has layed down.
The concept of the "witch" can be found in EVERY world culture and language in some form or another. Be it kahuna, hexe, strega, bruja, baobh, bacularia or makhsheyfe; the thought that lies behind it is still the same. Personally, I don't think it really matters where the word 'witch' came from; after all, there is no finite way to prove or disprove its origins. Besides, I am far more interested in where the word is going, than where its' been.

I already touched on this in an earlier post:)

Sorry...

It's cool, once again blessed me to you and your wife....

Electra rain, I was wondering I'm new to the craft and I read as much as I can get my hands on.
I was reading on a Nata bag and Italian Witch Craft. Do you know anything about this subject
or where I can find more information on it?

www.occultforums.com

go to the witchcraft section