It depends on which Hebrew God you mean. El the creator is never described, but his most famous son/assistant Yahweh has been described in the Bible.
He spews fire from a physical mouth (II Samual)
He snorts smoke from his physical nostrils )II Samual)
He has wings (Psalms)
He blocked the River Jordan with his huge body. (Joshua)
He is fed Virgins, first born children, calves, lambs and goats.
He ordered Moses to make him an idol in the form of a winged serpent-dragon (Numbers)
Christian Gnostics said he was a dragon
Persian Zoroastrian scriptures said he was a dragon
Cannanite Texts said he was a dragon
His apparent image on the sacred Menorah of the temple IS a dragon.
The mass of both Biblical and non-Biblical sources all agree, Yahweh is appaently a large, winged, gold-hoarding, virgin eating, fire breathing dragon, uncannily similar to the same creature believed in all over the world. Oh, and he has a brother who is a dragon, and that one is red in color.
But God Himself (Elohim) existed before everything, and is therefore probably shapeless.
Full Version: the image of God
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs
QUOTE (jaks.ko.ex @ Oct 20 2007, 04:27 PM) 
ok becky, i really dont care how u look or ur boyfriend does, or how u look after urself ok?! u have just contradicted urself on many levels! i wud have qoted but im on d psp right now, you have jus portrayed urself as a person hu wud leave their husband if his face got burnt! half the planets people r poor and cant find water to drink let alone bathe in it! if a non-poor person is unclean and impure then its them not u! u write as if evrywhre u go ppl r unclean and they always be around u! they maybe not
WOW people that like others to look good must really piss you off lol..and out comes the spite meeoowww and then in comes OMG I think I can sum you up attitude
Now you have a problem with the clean folk..whats next??
Listen if you have certain habits of your own...keep them to yourself
All you have given me is pure b*tchiness and all I did was be honest....so what? you have a thing against people who do their best to keep well and NOW because there are poor people that cant get clean water this is all BM's fault?? bad BM eh??
Listen up...thoughts on the poor doesnt concern me....just because they are poor dont make emmm ugly....
I wasnt talking about the poor...i was talking about the people WHO live with clean water and soap but too darn lazy to USE IT...got it?? (you prolly wont get it)
QUOTE (lava @ Oct 20 2007, 11:32 PM)
ok, but this is another issue. you're talking about your mate. however i refuse to date people, i can still understand your point. if i was supposed to choose someone among 3 billion people of course i would look for certain skills. physical appeariance is very important too. considering that one person would be "the one" for me.
we are different though. i would prefer to marry with someone who has those skills. when i am married i would never look at anyone as the way i look at my mate. i actually find it very tiring.
we are different though. i would prefer to marry with someone who has those skills. when i am married i would never look at anyone as the way i look at my mate. i actually find it very tiring.
At least you are understanding...that itself is a good quaility...
I just like plumpish guys.that dont smell bad and tidy..is that a bad thing?? lol
we have a right to make these choices...after all its our lives
dont you agree??
QUOTE (jaks.ko.ex @ Oct 20 2007, 04:38 PM)
they may not be the cleanest on the outside but i now see i can say the same bout ur inside... go ahead, reply to this wid something like u dnt judge or hate... bcuz a word of wisdom is greater than a thousand words uttered by a fool... average? u wouldnt know average if it hit u on the head each day of the week...i do feel sorri for u...
I wouldn't know whats avarage?? are you serious?? LOL so i dont have theright to call myself avarage...lol now is the judging one huh??
you have judged me purely on how I feel and how I like to live...man it must suck when someone says they much rather have a clean tidy mate...
So if I said...ohh I dont care for looks..OR SMELL people that smell and turn my stomach I think are just fantastic <--that would please you??
Im not here to please you ..or anyone like you...I suggest you leave your judgemental comments to how others feel personally to yourself
QUOTE (Jor-el @ Oct 20 2007, 03:16 PM)
Humans, just like us?
If there are ET's in the universe, which there most certainly are, they will probably not look like humans at all. They may not even have legs or heads or mouths. The point is that they may look like a shark or an octopus for all we know. They will also be created in the image of God, because all created, intelligent beings according to most people are created as such.
God does not have arms or legs, he doesn't even have to look human to be God. The human shape is not necessarily the God Shape. If we look at the other spiritual beings who inhabit heaven with God, we will also find that the Seraphim for example, are serpent-like in appearance.
If there are ET's in the universe, which there most certainly are, they will probably not look like humans at all. They may not even have legs or heads or mouths. The point is that they may look like a shark or an octopus for all we know. They will also be created in the image of God, because all created, intelligent beings according to most people are created as such.
God does not have arms or legs, he doesn't even have to look human to be God. The human shape is not necessarily the God Shape. If we look at the other spiritual beings who inhabit heaven with God, we will also find that the Seraphim for example, are serpent-like in appearance.
yes, humanbeings like us. but i can't say there are no other creatures in outer space. there must be. i don't know how you define intellect. some people think animals have it too. i don't think so. animals don't make choices between good and bad. they all have skills to survive. some have amazing abilities such as salamanders. but they do what they're programmed to do. our bodies are programmed to do physical things too. but we, as individuals, make choices by using our intellect. according to knowledge i am given, only humans and jinns have freewills to choose. while doing it an intellect is needed to distinguish. intellect is reason for responsibility. since humanbeings and jinns were responsible of their actions, no other would have intellect.
so i think if there were ETs, they wouldnot be different than animals. they might have special skills, could be stronger or faster than humans just like animals we already know. if any creature from outer space had intellect, weither he is human or he is a jinn.
in Qur'an, there is an advice. can't recall verse at the moment but it is like this: "don't try to imagine how God looks like, because it doesnot look like anything you know"
so, shape could be a worldly concept and void of shape would not be shapeless either.
Seraphim, nice sound. i remember it was said there was this snake in heaven who was the guard and Satan spoke to Eve through that snake. are they the same?
QUOTE (lava @ Oct 20 2007, 07:15 PM)
yes, humanbeings like us. but i can't say there are no other creatures in outer space. there must be. i don't know how you define intellect. some people think animals have it too. i don't think so. animals don't make choices between good and bad. they all have skills to survive. some have amazing abilities such as salamanders. but they do what they're programmed to do. our bodies are programmed to do physical things too. but we, as individuals, make choices by using our intellect. according to knowledge i am given, only humans and jinns have freewills to choose. while doing it an intellect is needed to distinguish. intellect is reason for responsibility. since humanbeings and jinns were responsible of their actions, no other would have intellect.
so i think if there were ETs, they wouldnot be different than animals. they might have special skills, could be stronger or faster than humans just like animals we already know. if any creature from outer space had intellect, weither he is human or he is a jinn.
in Qur'an, there is an advice. can't recall verse at the moment but it is like this: "don't try to imagine how God looks like, because it doesnot look like anything you know"
so, shape could be a worldly concept and void of shape would not be shapeless either.
Seraphim, nice sound. i remember it was said there was this snake in heaven who was the guard and Satan spoke to Eve through that snake. are they the same?
so i think if there were ETs, they wouldnot be different than animals. they might have special skills, could be stronger or faster than humans just like animals we already know. if any creature from outer space had intellect, weither he is human or he is a jinn.
in Qur'an, there is an advice. can't recall verse at the moment but it is like this: "don't try to imagine how God looks like, because it doesnot look like anything you know"
so, shape could be a worldly concept and void of shape would not be shapeless either.
Seraphim, nice sound. i remember it was said there was this snake in heaven who was the guard and Satan spoke to Eve through that snake. are they the same?
Throne guarding winged serpents or "dragons" were a popular concept of ancient near-eastern theologies, including Judaism. Ancient Christians acknowledge the heavenly seraphim-serpents/dragons as well as we see in their art and scriptures. One of their functions was to consume the souls of the wicked as we see in the Apocolypse of Baruch, a scripture used by both Jews and early Christians.
Yes, becasue these reptilian creatures were regarded as the highewt ranked heavenly creatures, it is logical to assume the "red dragon" Satan is one of the Seraphim. Also, the serpent in Eden was believed to have wings and arms and legs, for the Bible states these appendages were removed by God as a punishment, though in truth, we know that there were already snakes millions of years ago in the days of the dinosaurs. Today, most Christians have forgotten the meaning of this word, and imagine the seraphim as swan winged, humanoid angels. This misunderstanding was do the the winged demi gods of the hellenistic world which the converted Greco-Roman pagans were quick to include in their new beliefs.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Oct 21 2007, 12:44 AM)
Throne guarding winged serpents or "dragons" were a popular concept of ancient near-eastern theologies, including Judaism. Ancient Christians acknowledge the heavenly seraphim-serpents/dragons as well as we see in their art and scriptures. One of their functions was to consume the souls of the wicked as we see in the Apocolypse of Baruch, a scripture used by both Jews and early Christians.
Yes, becasue these reptilian creatures were regarded as the highewt ranked heavenly creatures, it is logical to assume the "red dragon" Satan is one of the Seraphim. Also, the serpent in Eden was believed to have wings and arms and legs, for the Bible states these appendages were removed by God as a punishment, though in truth, we know that there were already snakes millions of years ago in the days of the dinosaurs. Today, most Christians have forgotten the meaning of this word, and imagine the seraphim as swan winged, humanoid angels. This misunderstanding was do the the winged demi gods of the hellenistic world which the converted Greco-Roman pagans were quick to include in their new beliefs.
Yes, becasue these reptilian creatures were regarded as the highewt ranked heavenly creatures, it is logical to assume the "red dragon" Satan is one of the Seraphim. Also, the serpent in Eden was believed to have wings and arms and legs, for the Bible states these appendages were removed by God as a punishment, though in truth, we know that there were already snakes millions of years ago in the days of the dinosaurs. Today, most Christians have forgotten the meaning of this word, and imagine the seraphim as swan winged, humanoid angels. This misunderstanding was do the the winged demi gods of the hellenistic world which the converted Greco-Roman pagans were quick to include in their new beliefs.
that's very interesting. thank you!
Something that REALLY amazes me;
The fact that we have the ability and the knowledge to find and study the truth about history and its religious influences on all cultures and yet we still have people existing in this world that actually believe in some of these ancient doctrines and scriptures.
Christianity and Islamic religions are so simular because they both come from the Middle Eastern region of Europe. This is an area that has been at war since the dawn of time. The idea of using "scare tactics" such as "satan" and "hell" to control people and keep the churches rich was a very clever one in deed. In fact these men were so clever they even insisted that any man changing or disbelieving in there writings would be cursed by GOD.
THANK GOD! We can think for ourselves now!
Yes I do believe in GOD.
The fact that we have the ability and the knowledge to find and study the truth about history and its religious influences on all cultures and yet we still have people existing in this world that actually believe in some of these ancient doctrines and scriptures.
Christianity and Islamic religions are so simular because they both come from the Middle Eastern region of Europe. This is an area that has been at war since the dawn of time. The idea of using "scare tactics" such as "satan" and "hell" to control people and keep the churches rich was a very clever one in deed. In fact these men were so clever they even insisted that any man changing or disbelieving in there writings would be cursed by GOD.
THANK GOD! We can think for ourselves now!
Yes I do believe in GOD.
QUOTE (Emutanaha @ Oct 20 2007, 11:11 PM)
Christianity and Islamic religions are so simular because they both come from the Middle Eastern region of Europe.
Yes, I have to agree. I don't like the scare tactics of sermons. There is so much more that could be spoken about.
QUOTE (Emutanaha @ Oct 21 2007, 04:11 AM)
Something that REALLY amazes me;
The fact that we have the ability and the knowledge to find and study the truth about history and its religious influences on all cultures and yet we still have people existing in this world that actually believe in some of these ancient doctrines and scriptures.
Christianity and Islamic religions are so simular because they both come from the Middle Eastern region of Europe. This is an area that has been at war since the dawn of time. The idea of using "scare tactics" such as "satan" and "hell" to control people and keep the churches rich was a very clever one in deed. In fact these men were so clever they even insisted that any man changing or disbelieving in there writings would be cursed by GOD.
THANK GOD! We can think for ourselves now!
Yes I do believe in GOD.
The fact that we have the ability and the knowledge to find and study the truth about history and its religious influences on all cultures and yet we still have people existing in this world that actually believe in some of these ancient doctrines and scriptures.
Christianity and Islamic religions are so simular because they both come from the Middle Eastern region of Europe. This is an area that has been at war since the dawn of time. The idea of using "scare tactics" such as "satan" and "hell" to control people and keep the churches rich was a very clever one in deed. In fact these men were so clever they even insisted that any man changing or disbelieving in there writings would be cursed by GOD.
THANK GOD! We can think for ourselves now!
Yes I do believe in GOD.
It's amazing to me how some people accept the existence of a God, and even accepting the existence of angels is not much of a problem to them. They believe in the spiritual world but when it comes to the concept of hell and demons as well as a satan, then suddenly they don't believe anymore. Very selective beliefs you have. When its part of the good, all is ok, when there is evil, then it doesn't exist.
Knowing that both of these concepts come from the same place and are thus equally in existence is too big for them, they just prefer looking at half the picture because the other half doesn't allow them to feel their conscience speaking to them.
QUOTE (lava @ Oct 21 2007, 01:15 AM)
yes, humanbeings like us. but i can't say there are no other creatures in outer space. there must be. i don't know how you define intellect. some people think animals have it too. i don't think so. animals don't make choices between good and bad. they all have skills to survive. some have amazing abilities such as salamanders. but they do what they're programmed to do. our bodies are programmed to do physical things too. but we, as individuals, make choices by using our intellect. according to knowledge i am given, only humans and jinns have freewills to choose. while doing it an intellect is needed to distinguish. intellect is reason for responsibility. since humanbeings and jinns were responsible of their actions, no other would have intellect.
so i think if there were ETs, they wouldnot be different than animals. they might have special skills, could be stronger or faster than humans just like animals we already know. if any creature from outer space had intellect, weither he is human or he is a jinn.
in Qur'an, there is an advice. can't recall verse at the moment but it is like this: "don't try to imagine how God looks like, because it doesnot look like anything you know"
so, shape could be a worldly concept and void of shape would not be shapeless either.
Seraphim, nice sound. i remember it was said there was this snake in heaven who was the guard and Satan spoke to Eve through that snake. are they the same?
so i think if there were ETs, they wouldnot be different than animals. they might have special skills, could be stronger or faster than humans just like animals we already know. if any creature from outer space had intellect, weither he is human or he is a jinn.
in Qur'an, there is an advice. can't recall verse at the moment but it is like this: "don't try to imagine how God looks like, because it doesnot look like anything you know"
so, shape could be a worldly concept and void of shape would not be shapeless either.
Seraphim, nice sound. i remember it was said there was this snake in heaven who was the guard and Satan spoke to Eve through that snake. are they the same?
So, if they look human they will have the image of God, but if they don't they will just be intelligent animals?
QUOTE (Jor-el @ Oct 21 2007, 02:41 AM)
It's amazing to me how some people accept the existence of a God, and even accepting the existence of angels is not much of a problem to them. They believe in the spiritual world but when it comes to the concept of hell and demons as well as a satan, then suddenly they don't believe anymore. Very selective beliefs you have. When its part of the good, all is ok, when there is evil, then it doesn't exist.
Knowing that both of these concepts come from the same place and are thus equally in existence is too big for them, they just prefer looking at half the picture because the other half doesn't allow them to feel their conscience speaking to them.
Knowing that both of these concepts come from the same place and are thus equally in existence is too big for them, they just prefer looking at half the picture because the other half doesn't allow them to feel their conscience speaking to them.
No Jor-El, the idea of a "Satan Bogey-man" is hard for most rational people to accept, for this contradicts the notion of an all wise and all powerful creator. And the real Bible endorsed by Jesus confirms this as well. The Satan of the Holy Torah is the obedient servant of God. After 3,000 years Judaism still supports this view, though unfortuntaely, around the time of Jesus, Persian Zoroastrian Dualism had infected the theology and produced the writing such as Enoch, that promoted the absurd notion that created servants could rebel again an omnipotent creator. Much Christian Doctrine is based on this book. Curiously, many Christian Sects still accept the Satan Bogeyman despite the fact this has been rejected by Judaism, and the religion that invented the "Bogeyman Satan", is virtually dead today (Zoroastrianism). The Satan who comes to Jesus in the New Testament did so on behalf of God so that Jesus could fullfill the Messianic prophecies. Oh, but wait, many Christians think Jesus is God, which makes one wonder who Jesus called His Father, and prayed to.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Oct 21 2007, 11:18 AM)
No Jor-El, the idea of a "Satan Bogey-man" is hard for most rational people to accept, for this contradicts the notion of an all wise and all powerful creator. And the real Bible endorsed by Jesus confirms this as well. The Satan of the Holy Torah is the obedient servant of God. After 3,000 years Judaism still supports this view, though unfortuntaely, around the time of Jesus, Persian Zoroastrian Dualism had infected the theology and produced the writing such as Enoch, that promoted the absurd notion that created servants could rebel again an omnipotent creator. Much Christian Doctrine is based on this book. Curiously, many Christian Sects still accept the Satan Bogeyman despite the fact this has been rejected by Judaism, and the religion that invented the "Bogeyman Satan", is virtually dead today (Zoroastrianism). The Satan who comes to Jesus in the New Testament did so on behalf of God so that Jesus could fullfill the Messianic prophecies. Oh, but wait, many Christians think Jesus is God, which makes one wonder who Jesus called His Father, and prayed to.
Maybe a visit from one of your pet dragons will help you change your mind. I'm through commenting on your "unique" point of view.
If you wanna live in the fantasy world of an all good universe, after sin came into the world, that is your perrogative.
QUOTE (Jor-el @ Oct 21 2007, 01:33 PM)
Maybe a visit from one of your pet dragons will help you change your mind. I'm through commenting on your "unique" point of view.
If you wanna live in the fantasy world of an all good universe, after sin came into the world, that is your perrogative.
If you wanna live in the fantasy world of an all good universe, after sin came into the world, that is your perrogative.
With him living in a fantasy world..is no different from your fantasy world or mine
WHY?? Because he can't prove his dragaons....you cannot prove your beast Satan nor can you prove your God...
He believes in the things these dragons do....you believe in what these spiritual beings of good v's evil...with no actual proof...you are both in the same boat, the only difference is...your mythical characters have different names and do different things
I believe in a character too called God..I believe in the angels...I have zero actual proof...and when i say ACTUAL proof...I mean proof that others can see...therefore my belief is mythical to others..and rightly so
Question is there harm in what we all believe?? neither of us can prove it...we only have personal experience
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Oct 21 2007, 08:27 AM)
With him living in a fantasy world..is no different from your fantasy world or mine
WHY?? Because he can't prove his dragaons....you cannot prove your beast Satan nor can you prove your God...
He believes in the things these dragons do....you believe in what these spiritual beings of good v's evil...with no actual proof...you are both in the same boat, the only difference is...your mythical characters have different names and do different things
I believe in a character too called God..I believe in the angels...I have zero actual proof...and when i say ACTUAL proof...I mean proof that others can see...therefore my belief is mythical to others..and rightly so
Question is there harm in what we all believe?? neither of us can prove it...we only have personal experience
WHY?? Because he can't prove his dragaons....you cannot prove your beast Satan nor can you prove your God...
He believes in the things these dragons do....you believe in what these spiritual beings of good v's evil...with no actual proof...you are both in the same boat, the only difference is...your mythical characters have different names and do different things
I believe in a character too called God..I believe in the angels...I have zero actual proof...and when i say ACTUAL proof...I mean proof that others can see...therefore my belief is mythical to others..and rightly so
Question is there harm in what we all believe?? neither of us can prove it...we only have personal experience
But the interesting thing about the dragons is that they appear in the theologies of virtually every human culture, and are disturbingly similar all over the world. Although modern Christianity has attempted to purge them from scripture, they are the highest heavenly creatures (Seraphim-Drakons) according to the only scripture Jesus ever acknowledged.
If there really is a supernatural realm would it be revealed by God to only one tribe of humans? Dragons were firmly believed in by that one tribe (the Hebrews), but ALSO by every other human culture and were connected with God, usually in the capacity as an assistant to God, though in some cases the God Himself.
The only way to measure the "authenticity" of a supernatural entity might be how widespread the belief in it is. And in this respect, dragons are the most universally believed of all supernatural entities save for human "ghosts". This is not to say dragons are Gods, though our ancient ancestors believed this. But they are clearly connected to "God" in virtually every human culture -- much more so than even humanoid angels.
QUOTE (Jor-el @ Oct 21 2007, 07:33 AM)
Maybe a visit from one of your pet dragons will help you change your mind. I'm through commenting on your "unique" point of view.
If you wanna live in the fantasy world of an all good universe, after sin came into the world, that is your perrogative.
If you wanna live in the fantasy world of an all good universe, after sin came into the world, that is your perrogative.
Like it or not, "sin" was always part of our world, it is called "nature", and nature existed on this planet long before man. Animals "sin" exactly as man, you can see this on any nature show. Chimpanzees commit murder of their own kind, and innumerable lesser sins, and nobody blames their acts on a "Chimp Devil" because these "sinful acts" are the result of biological triggers. When a male chimp strangles the baby of a rival, it is not becasue of a devil, it is because "natur" is telling him he needs to do this so only his genes will be passed to the next generation and not the other male chimps in the clan. And we are only seperated from chimps by a few Chromosomes.
We once thought terribly evil men were influenced by demons and devils, yet scientists can now predict who will be "evil" based on their childhood. Therefore it is possible to deliberately create evil people without the benefit of any devil, but how they are raised.
The devil in Eden was not in the original story. In the original Eden story, mankind was already well established and not immortal. Adam was not the first man, he was a fisherman and priest to a Sumerian dragon-God in the Garden of Eden outside the stoneage city of Eridu. Adam did not commit the original sin, he was simply offered the chance to be an angel but his dragon master didn't want to lose his service so tricked him out of the chance. This story was written down over 1000 years before Genesis was written, and the the intervening millennia, the illiterate Hebrew shepherds mixed up the story a bit, but enough of it remained to determine EXACTLY where the story came from - same Adam, Same Garden of Eden, Same "tricky" talking "serpent-dragon".
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Oct 21 2007, 03:38 PM)
Like it or not, "sin" was always part of our world, it is called "nature", and nature existed on this planet long before man. Animals "sin" exactly as man, you can see this on any nature show. Chimpanzees commit murder of their own kind, and innumerable lesser sins, and nobody blames their acts on a "Chimp Devil" because these "sinful acts" are the result of biological triggers. When a male chimp strangles the baby of a rival, it is not becasue of a devil, it is because "natur" is telling him he needs to do this so only his genes will be passed to the next generation and not the other male chimps in the clan. And we are only seperated from chimps by a few Chromosomes.
We once thought terribly evil men were influenced by demons and devils, yet scientists can now predict who will be "evil" based on their childhood. Therefore it is possible to deliberately create evil people without the benefit of any devil, but how they are raised.
The devil in Eden was not in the original story. In the original Eden story, mankind was already well established and not immortal. Adam was not the first man, he was a fisherman and priest to a Sumerian dragon-God in the Garden of Eden outside the stoneage city of Eridu. Adam did not commit the original sin, he was simply offered the chance to be an angel but his dragon master didn't want to lose his service so tricked him out of the chance. This story was written down over 1000 years before Genesis was written, and the the intervening millennia, the illiterate Hebrew shepherds mixed up the story a bit, but enough of it remained to determine EXACTLY where the story came from - same Adam, Same Garden of Eden, Same "tricky" talking "serpent-dragon".
We once thought terribly evil men were influenced by demons and devils, yet scientists can now predict who will be "evil" based on their childhood. Therefore it is possible to deliberately create evil people without the benefit of any devil, but how they are raised.
The devil in Eden was not in the original story. In the original Eden story, mankind was already well established and not immortal. Adam was not the first man, he was a fisherman and priest to a Sumerian dragon-God in the Garden of Eden outside the stoneage city of Eridu. Adam did not commit the original sin, he was simply offered the chance to be an angel but his dragon master didn't want to lose his service so tricked him out of the chance. This story was written down over 1000 years before Genesis was written, and the the intervening millennia, the illiterate Hebrew shepherds mixed up the story a bit, but enough of it remained to determine EXACTLY where the story came from - same Adam, Same Garden of Eden, Same "tricky" talking "serpent-dragon".
You know why I'm starting to have a problem with your posts?
Because it's as if you don't even read mine, even though you quote them often enough. I have consistently stated, more than once to you personally that man was never immortal. As for the rest, I'm sure some will accept what you are saying without so much as a second thought.
But let me ask you again. Has it never crossed your mind that if these beings are in fact real, then they can in effect actively influence the real physical world, and as such that what we have before us, is infact two versions of the same events as related to us by two different beings?
One of them is God and his version is in the bible. The other, the God of the Sumerians, is Enki, better known as the Deciever or Satan if you will.
These versions are in opposition to each other for that very reason, yet you refuse to admit this even though you readily admit alot more when it fits your world view.
The majority of todays esoteric religions readily admit the connection between Enki and Satan and so do I, but God and Satan were never Brothers, even though through generational layering, Enki has tried to portray this view in his version of what happened, from what we know of Sumerian tablets.
If this is the deciever, why are you so ready to take his word over the biblical texts as given by God. Which of them could be lying? I'll put my money on Enki...
As for sin, yes it existed before man was ever created, I never had a problem with that, but the bible also clearly states that man was in innocence at that time, just as the animals are today and are thus sinless, because sin is only counted when knowledge that a specific action is a sin ,is passed on to man, which was a direct consequence of eating of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil by the way.
That in effect is what it meant to have their eyes opened and to be like the Gods.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Oct 21 2007, 03:18 PM)
But the interesting thing about the dragons is that they appear in the theologies of virtually every human culture, and are disturbingly similar all over the world. Although modern Christianity has attempted to purge them from scripture, they are the highest heavenly creatures (Seraphim-Drakons) according to the only scripture Jesus ever acknowledged.
You can only give me what you ....BELIEVE..that's it...you can't prove it for realQUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Oct 21 2007, 02:27 PM)
With him living in a fantasy world..is no different from your fantasy world or mine
WHY?? Because he can't prove his dragaons....you cannot prove your beast Satan nor can you prove your God...
He believes in the things these dragons do....you believe in what these spiritual beings of good v's evil...with no actual proof...you are both in the same boat, the only difference is...your mythical characters have different names and do different things
I believe in a character too called God..I believe in the angels...I have zero actual proof...and when i say ACTUAL proof...I mean proof that others can see...therefore my belief is mythical to others..and rightly so
Question is there harm in what we all believe?? neither of us can prove it...we only have personal experience
WHY?? Because he can't prove his dragaons....you cannot prove your beast Satan nor can you prove your God...
He believes in the things these dragons do....you believe in what these spiritual beings of good v's evil...with no actual proof...you are both in the same boat, the only difference is...your mythical characters have different names and do different things
I believe in a character too called God..I believe in the angels...I have zero actual proof...and when i say ACTUAL proof...I mean proof that others can see...therefore my belief is mythical to others..and rightly so
Question is there harm in what we all believe?? neither of us can prove it...we only have personal experience
I never said he lived in a fantasy world BM. Much of what he says is based on biblical evidence. His interpretations though, leave much to be desired.
The fact that much of what he says is biblical but has been downplayed and suppressed by the church over the ages, now leaves room for people to invent and twist what was originally well known to the christians and Jews of the time.
Only recently, in the last 10 years or so, has this knowledge been revised and discussed by biblical sholars, but is still pretty much unkown by the mainstream church.
QUOTE (lava @ Oct 5 2007, 03:02 AM)
hi
with priceless help of my Master, i would like to tell you about what each of us were given from birth.
we are given 3 bodies:
1-The physical body that belongs to this world, the zahiri world.
2-The soul that leaves our physical body when we sleep (also when we faint and die); this is the body we see in our dreams.
3-The spirit that was blown by Allah.
i think it is not necessary to talk about physical body.
the second one that mentioned above is soul. it is generally named 'ego'
91 / ASH SHAMS - 7:Ve nefsin ve mâ sevvâhâ.
I swear, that soul (ego) was given the proportion and order (at 7 steps).
91 / ASH SHAMS - 8: Fe elhemehâ fucûrehâ ve takvâhâ.
And to that (soul (ego)) is inspired the TAQWA (piety) (of Allah) and the FUJJUR (what Satan says);
91 / ASH SHAMS - 9:Kad efleha men zekkâhâ.
The one who purifies his soul (ego) attains salvation (enters Paradise).
there are 19 vices within the heart of soul. therefor the heart of the soul is 100% of darkness. we need to purify our egos. the third body (the Spirit) we have was blown by Allah Almighty. Spirit belongs to Allah.
We were created equally. Our spirits heart is 100% full of virtues. It has an identitiy that fullfils all of Allahs orders and abstains from doing what He prohibited. Our souls is 100% full of vices. It has been created with a characteristic that refuses all of Allahs orders and fulfills what Allah prohibited.
we are also given free will to chose between. i believe if we were not able to chose, if we were not given free will then there wouldnot be hell or heaven.
imo, when a person purifies his soul, the heart of his soul gains the same virtues that Spirit has. Spirit naturally has it because it already belongs to Allah. Spirit is simply perfection. i believe that's the Image of Allah. so human beings need to purify their egos to turn those 19 vices into virtues that Spirit of Allah has.
with priceless help of my Master, i would like to tell you about what each of us were given from birth.
we are given 3 bodies:
1-The physical body that belongs to this world, the zahiri world.
2-The soul that leaves our physical body when we sleep (also when we faint and die); this is the body we see in our dreams.
3-The spirit that was blown by Allah.
i think it is not necessary to talk about physical body.
the second one that mentioned above is soul. it is generally named 'ego'
91 / ASH SHAMS - 7:Ve nefsin ve mâ sevvâhâ.
I swear, that soul (ego) was given the proportion and order (at 7 steps).
91 / ASH SHAMS - 8: Fe elhemehâ fucûrehâ ve takvâhâ.
And to that (soul (ego)) is inspired the TAQWA (piety) (of Allah) and the FUJJUR (what Satan says);
91 / ASH SHAMS - 9:Kad efleha men zekkâhâ.
The one who purifies his soul (ego) attains salvation (enters Paradise).
there are 19 vices within the heart of soul. therefor the heart of the soul is 100% of darkness. we need to purify our egos. the third body (the Spirit) we have was blown by Allah Almighty. Spirit belongs to Allah.
We were created equally. Our spirits heart is 100% full of virtues. It has an identitiy that fullfils all of Allahs orders and abstains from doing what He prohibited. Our souls is 100% full of vices. It has been created with a characteristic that refuses all of Allahs orders and fulfills what Allah prohibited.
we are also given free will to chose between. i believe if we were not able to chose, if we were not given free will then there wouldnot be hell or heaven.
imo, when a person purifies his soul, the heart of his soul gains the same virtues that Spirit has. Spirit naturally has it because it already belongs to Allah. Spirit is simply perfection. i believe that's the Image of Allah. so human beings need to purify their egos to turn those 19 vices into virtues that Spirit of Allah has.
As Salaam Alaikum
The Perfect image, I believe, to be that of Adam (AS), at the beginning, which still exists as a spiritual archetype. This is Ahsani Taqweem (perfect symmetry) in which we were created. (Surah 95). Allah is Al Musawwir, meaning The Maker of Suwa (form, image, shape). Allah is the Creator of Rooh (spirit), Nafs (self/soul), and 'Aql (intellect). There is no mithal (likeness, symbol, similitude) for Allah (42:11). Ihsan, [from the same root as "Ahsani"] is described by Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as "to worship Allah as though you see Him, even though you do not" is to imagine without image. It is the Third level of the Religion, after Islam, and Iman. I believe that the concept of Tawheed (Oneness) must be free of any imagery in order for the fullness of Ihsan to be experienced.
www.occultdawahproject.com
The Perfect image, I believe, to be that of Adam (AS), at the beginning, which still exists as a spiritual archetype. This is Ahsani Taqweem (perfect symmetry) in which we were created. (Surah 95). Allah is Al Musawwir, meaning The Maker of Suwa (form, image, shape). Allah is the Creator of Rooh (spirit), Nafs (self/soul), and 'Aql (intellect). There is no mithal (likeness, symbol, similitude) for Allah (42:11). Ihsan, [from the same root as "Ahsani"] is described by Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as "to worship Allah as though you see Him, even though you do not" is to imagine without image. It is the Third level of the Religion, after Islam, and Iman. I believe that the concept of Tawheed (Oneness) must be free of any imagery in order for the fullness of Ihsan to be experienced.
www.occultdawahproject.com
QUOTE (jaks.ko.ex @ Oct 20 2007, 04:17 AM)
beckys mom, that was a horrible thing to say...may be u can say that cuz u look good but the fact u cant look beyond the phyisicality of a human is sad. im sure there are ppl much prettier than u, if they mocked u how would u feel? the true beauty of a person lies within and anyone hu judges others by their appearances truly have no respect or decency...understand your neighbour, jus because he sells meat and you jewellery, doesnt make u any greater than he is......
Beauty and good looks is a sign of health. It is an evolutionary/mating strategy to produce healthy offspring.
They even showed this on a german documentary that babies prefer good looking people. (their reaction-smiling etc.)
A slim waistline is a signal of a person not having diabetes for instance/nice teeth no gum disease etc..
I have fallen in love with persons that are not considered good looking but I take BOTH into account at first.
Their personality was so charasmatic that I fell in love with them but not attracted from the beginning.
I have to be attracted to the physical too- and they have to look healthy & clean.
It doesn't make Becky shallow-it's natural.
People that are equally good looking /or not and share the same values and goals-do the best as far as I know.
QUOTE (Jor-el @ Oct 21 2007, 02:33 PM)
Maybe a visit from one of your pet dragons will help you change your mind. I'm through commenting on your "unique" point of view.
If you wanna live in the fantasy world of an all good universe, after sin came into the world, that is your perrogative.
If you wanna live in the fantasy world of an all good universe, after sin came into the world, that is your perrogative.
I'm reading these posts and I find it amusing how one person's belief that shall we say is "interesting & hard to believe" criticizes or stamps off another persons belief that is also "interestin and hard to believe" as "just a fantasy".
This always irritated me in others personal comments, or suggestive indirect criticisms of others faiths.
Alot of people in church often made fun of UFO buffs but yet believed in talking snakes & donkeys etc.
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Oct 22 2007, 06:37 PM)
Alot of people in church often made fun of UFO buffs but yet believed in talking snakes & donkeys etc.
LOL! .............
QUOTE (momentarylapseofreason @ Oct 22 2007, 10:07 AM)
I'm reading these posts and I find it amusing how one person's belief that shall we say is "interesting & hard to believe" criticizes or stamps off another persons belief that is also "interestin and hard to believe" as "just a fantasy".
This always irritated me in others personal comments, or suggestive indirect criticisms of others faiths.
Alot of people in church often made fun of UFO buffs but yet believed in talking snakes & donkeys etc.
This always irritated me in others personal comments, or suggestive indirect criticisms of others faiths.
Alot of people in church often made fun of UFO buffs but yet believed in talking snakes & donkeys etc.
What I find amusing is people who haven't the foggiest notion of what is being talked about since they aren't even within the context of the conversation, coming up and simply misinterpreting what they read since they obviously didn't take the time or the trouble to get into context.
The fantasy I'm speaking of is as follows, and I quote verbatim:
QUOTE
If you wanna live in the fantasy world of an all good universe, after sin came into the world, that is your perrogative.
By the way, the context as DC will also clearly demonstrate, if he so desires, is that neither of us accept that this is the case.
In his view, an all good God could not have created an evil being called Satan, which is why he doesn't believe that such a figure actually exists in the context that christians portray him. In my perspective, God created all heavenly and earthly beings with free will, that is the price God paid for not having a bunch of robots, serving him. The downer is that some of these beings might at some point choose to do things their own way, angelic and human beings included.
QUOTE (Jor-el @ Oct 22 2007, 03:51 PM)
What I find amusing is people who haven't the foggiest notion of what is being talked about since they aren't even within the context of the conversation, coming up and simply misinterpreting what they read since they obviously didn't take the time or the trouble to get into context.
The fantasy I'm speaking of is as follows, and I quote verbatim:
By the why the context as DC will also clearly demonstrate, if he so desires, is that neither of us accept that this is the case.
In his view, an all good God could not have created an evil being called Satan, which is why he doesn't believe that such a figure actually exists in the context that christians portray him. In my perspective, God created all heavenly and earthly beings with free will, that is the price God paid for not having a bunch of robots, serving him. The downer is that some of these beings might at some point choose to do things their own way, angelic and human beings included.
The fantasy I'm speaking of is as follows, and I quote verbatim:
By the why the context as DC will also clearly demonstrate, if he so desires, is that neither of us accept that this is the case.
In his view, an all good God could not have created an evil being called Satan, which is why he doesn't believe that such a figure actually exists in the context that christians portray him. In my perspective, God created all heavenly and earthly beings with free will, that is the price God paid for not having a bunch of robots, serving him. The downer is that some of these beings might at some point choose to do things their own way, angelic and human beings included.
Thank's for the clarification. You must realize that mainstream Judaism and many Christians essentially say the same thing. In fact, the Old Testament books Jesus endorsed, say this as well. Yahweh and Satan seem to be good buddies while they toy with the life of Job and his children, and Satan cannot harm anyone without Yahweh's permission. In one book Yahweh induces David to take a census, and in another Satan does, and then Yahweh imposes a terrible punishment. It is the fact that many scholars identify Yahweh and Satan and Enlil and Enki, that we can conclude they are brothers. This is with the understanding El is the supreme God, and we see this in several places in the Bible. This is not my "wacky invention", these things are proposed by lettered Biblical scholars that our experts in the ancient religions.
Even saying Yahweh is a dragon is not my invention. Early Christians and Persians understood this, and through archaeology we can see the connection between Enlil, of the great flood, and "dragon of the earth" and Yaw the cannanite dragon that controlled the waters. And here we have Yahweh, also reponsible for the great flood, has wings, breaths fire, snorts smoke, is fed virgins, physically blocks the river Jordan with his massive body, ORDERED Moses to make a dragon idol, hoards treasure, and possibly has a dragon for a brother, and certainly a bunch of assistants that the ancient Jews themselves called dragons. If this isn't a dragon, I don't know what elsee would be. He fits the "profile".
What you do not seem to grasp is that it is one thing to allow his creations "free will" , but I think NOT at the expense of all the others like the bogey man Satan concept. Think of Satan as a wolf, and the Creator as the Shepherd. Would he give the wolf "free will" to slaughter the sheep? The Jews accepted these dualistic beliefs for only a short time. Then, Satan again is regarded as simply an assistant to Yahweh that does His bidding. And then there is the problem that Satan is not even a name. Some "satans" in the Bible are clearly men. Your own knowledge of the Bible must confirm this. You admit a certain "Satan" in at least the Eden story (never named Satan), in the Job story, and presumeably at the temptaton of Jesus are all Enki, the great dragon of Eridu and Eden. But if that is true, then who in Judaic theology is his brother Enlil, who floods the world and who is the Chief God of the Sumerians. If Enki is Satan, Enlil can only be Yahweh, and true to the bible, they both behave like dragons and brothers.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Oct 22 2007, 11:46 PM)
Thank's for the clarification. You must realize that mainstream Judaism and many Christians essentially say the same thing. In fact, the Old Testament books Jesus endorsed, say this as well. Yahweh and Satan seem to be good buddies while they toy with the life of Job and his children, and Satan cannot harm anyone without Yahweh's permission. In one book Yahweh induces David to take a census, and in another Satan does, and then Yahweh imposes a terrible punishment. It is the fact that many scholars identify Yahweh and Satan and Enlil and Enki, that we can conclude they are brothers. This is with the understanding El is the supreme God, and we see this in several places in the Bible. This is not my "wacky invention", these things are proposed by lettered Biblical scholars that our experts in the ancient religions.
Even saying Yahweh is a dragon is not my invention. Early Christians and Persians understood this, and through archaeology we can see the connection between Enlil, of the great flood, and "dragon of the earth" and Yaw the cannanite dragon that controlled the waters. And here we have Yahweh, also reponsible for the great flood, has wings, breaths fire, snorts smoke, is fed virgins, physically blocks the river Jordan with his massive body, ORDERED Moses to make a dragon idol, hoards treasure, and possibly has a dragon for a brother, and certainly a bunch of assistants that the ancient Jews themselves called dragons. If this isn't a dragon, I don't know what elsee would be. He fits the "profile".
What you do not seem to grasp is that it is one thing to allow his creations "free will" , but I think NOT at the expense of all the others like the bogey man Satan concept. Think of Satan as a wolf, and the Creator as the Shepherd. Would he give the wolf "free will" to slaughter the sheep? The Jews accepted these dualistic beliefs for only a short time. Then, Satan again is regarded as simply an assistant to Yahweh that does His bidding. And then there is the problem that Satan is not even a name. Some "satans" in the Bible are clearly men. Your own knowledge of the Bible must confirm this. You admit a certain "Satan" in at least the Eden story (never named Satan), in the Job story, and presumeably at the temptaton of Jesus are all Enki, the great dragon of Eridu and Eden. But if that is true, then who in Judaic theology is his brother Enlil, who floods the world and who is the Chief God of the Sumerians. If Enki is Satan, Enlil can only be Yahweh, and true to the bible, they both behave like dragons and brothers.
Even saying Yahweh is a dragon is not my invention. Early Christians and Persians understood this, and through archaeology we can see the connection between Enlil, of the great flood, and "dragon of the earth" and Yaw the cannanite dragon that controlled the waters. And here we have Yahweh, also reponsible for the great flood, has wings, breaths fire, snorts smoke, is fed virgins, physically blocks the river Jordan with his massive body, ORDERED Moses to make a dragon idol, hoards treasure, and possibly has a dragon for a brother, and certainly a bunch of assistants that the ancient Jews themselves called dragons. If this isn't a dragon, I don't know what elsee would be. He fits the "profile".
What you do not seem to grasp is that it is one thing to allow his creations "free will" , but I think NOT at the expense of all the others like the bogey man Satan concept. Think of Satan as a wolf, and the Creator as the Shepherd. Would he give the wolf "free will" to slaughter the sheep? The Jews accepted these dualistic beliefs for only a short time. Then, Satan again is regarded as simply an assistant to Yahweh that does His bidding. And then there is the problem that Satan is not even a name. Some "satans" in the Bible are clearly men. Your own knowledge of the Bible must confirm this. You admit a certain "Satan" in at least the Eden story (never named Satan), in the Job story, and presumeably at the temptaton of Jesus are all Enki, the great dragon of Eridu and Eden. But if that is true, then who in Judaic theology is his brother Enlil, who floods the world and who is the Chief God of the Sumerians. If Enki is Satan, Enlil can only be Yahweh, and true to the bible, they both behave like dragons and brothers.
The expense you are talking about is a limitation of what we concieve to be free will. Not all humans are outlaws, but those that are, are so because they chose to break the boundries of common decency and goodwill, shared by the human community. No-one stops humans from commiting murder and other atrocities, and the same can be said for the spiritual realm. What keeps the angels in check, is the rules they have, just like we humans have ours. Even so we have outlaws in the angelic realm for that very same reason. They disregarded the laws of their own kind, if not Gods, but just like our own outlaws, they paid a price for doing so.
(Remember I am using the word "angels" generically, we both know that there are different types of "Heavenly Beings")
God forbade angels to have sexual intercourse with human women, but some of them did so anyway. We have quite a few instances where angels (the fallen) demonstrate a clear antipathy to Gods plans, not only where the creation of humanity is concerned but also in trying to subvert the promise of God to Abraham among other instances.
You still haven't answered my questions DC... I'll ask again.
Has it never crossed your mind that if these beings are in fact real, then they can in effect actively influence the real physical world, and as such that what we have before us, is infact two versions of the same events as related to us by two different beings?
One of them is God and his version is in the bible. The other, the God of the Sumerians, is Enki, better known as the Deciever or Satan if you will.
These versions are in opposition to each other for that very reason, yet you refuse to admit this even though you readily admit alot more when it fits your world view.
The majority of todays esoteric religions readily admit the connection between Enki and Satan and so do I, but God and Satan were never Brothers, even though through generational layering, Enki has tried to portray this view in his version of what happened, from what we know of Sumerian tablets.
If this is the deciever, why are you so ready to take his word over the biblical texts as given by God. Which of them could be lying? I'll put my money on Enki...
Regarding your question about Enlil....
If one is using Sumerian texts to support ones viewpoint, one also needs to consider where those texts came from and who their ultimate author was.
We both know that in both instances, Enki is the culprit.
We've discussed this before, so I won't get into the details, which I'm sure you are aware of anyhow.
As such what Enki says, doesn't necessarily correspond to the truth but is rather a distortion of the truth. Enlil and Anu are both facets of the one who is called Yahweh or EL.
Enki seperated these facets and raised himself to a level of equality by stating that He and Enlil were brothers, what he did was twisting the facts to fit his purposes, which he succeeded in doing, since he was in effect later proclaimed to be the Lord of the Earth and the Abyss. His possesion of the ME's (keys) demonstrate that in the end he had complete authority over that society.
Well, I'm not going to bet between Jor-El and Drac on this one 
.
As for man and the image of God: Human beings are capable of empathy, caring and good. We are also inspired to create and understand. Thus, these wondrous things that make us "more human" we get from God. So I believe that our capacity for goodness is our likeness to God. I don't think it was meant in a physical sense. And yes, should we discover other self-aware intelligences with a capacity for good, then they too have some of God's likeness.
.As for man and the image of God: Human beings are capable of empathy, caring and good. We are also inspired to create and understand. Thus, these wondrous things that make us "more human" we get from God. So I believe that our capacity for goodness is our likeness to God. I don't think it was meant in a physical sense. And yes, should we discover other self-aware intelligences with a capacity for good, then they too have some of God's likeness.
QUOTE (Archosaur @ Oct 23 2007, 01:08 AM)
Well, I'm not going to bet between Jor-El and Drac on this one .
As for man and the image of God: Human beings are capable of empathy, caring and good. We are also inspired to create and understand. Thus, these wondrous things that make us "more human" we get from God. So I believe that our capacity for goodness is our likeness to God. I don't think it was meant in a physical sense. And yes, should we discover other self-aware intelligences with a capacity for good, then they too have some of God's likeness.
.As for man and the image of God: Human beings are capable of empathy, caring and good. We are also inspired to create and understand. Thus, these wondrous things that make us "more human" we get from God. So I believe that our capacity for goodness is our likeness to God. I don't think it was meant in a physical sense. And yes, should we discover other self-aware intelligences with a capacity for good, then they too have some of God's likeness.
Good call Archosaur, The capacity for goodness is truly a part of what was intended to be the image of God. I haven't the faintest doubt regarding that.
QUOTE (Jor-el @ Oct 22 2007, 06:54 PM)
The expense you are talking about is a limitation of what we concieve to be free will. Not all humans are outlaws, but those that are, are so because they chose to break the boundries of common decency and goodwill, shared by the human community. No-one stops humans from commiting murder and other atrocities, and the same can be said for the spiritual realm. What keeps the angels in check, is the rules they have, just like we humans have ours. Even so we have outlaws in the angelic realm for that very same reason. They disregarded the laws of their own kind, if not Gods, but just like our own outlaws, they paid a price for doing so.
(Remember I am using the word "angels" generically, we both know that there are different types of "Heavenly Beings")
God forbade angels to have sexual intercourse with human women, but some of them did so anyway. We have quite a few instances where angels (the fallen) demonstrate a clear antipathy to Gods plans, not only where the creation of humanity is concerned but also in trying to subvert the promise of God to Abraham among other instances.
You still haven't answered my questions DC... I'll ask again.
Has it never crossed your mind that if these beings are in fact real, then they can in effect actively influence the real physical world, and as such that what we have before us, is infact two versions of the same events as related to us by two different beings?
One of them is God and his version is in the bible. The other, the God of the Sumerians, is Enki, better known as the Deciever or Satan if you will.
These versions are in opposition to each other for that very reason, yet you refuse to admit this even though you readily admit alot more when it fits your world view.
The majority of todays esoteric religions readily admit the connection between Enki and Satan and so do I, but God and Satan were never Brothers, even though through generational layering, Enki has tried to portray this view in his version of what happened, from what we know of Sumerian tablets.
If this is the deciever, why are you so ready to take his word over the biblical texts as given by God. Which of them could be lying? I'll put my money on Enki...
(Remember I am using the word "angels" generically, we both know that there are different types of "Heavenly Beings")
God forbade angels to have sexual intercourse with human women, but some of them did so anyway. We have quite a few instances where angels (the fallen) demonstrate a clear antipathy to Gods plans, not only where the creation of humanity is concerned but also in trying to subvert the promise of God to Abraham among other instances.
You still haven't answered my questions DC... I'll ask again.
Has it never crossed your mind that if these beings are in fact real, then they can in effect actively influence the real physical world, and as such that what we have before us, is infact two versions of the same events as related to us by two different beings?
One of them is God and his version is in the bible. The other, the God of the Sumerians, is Enki, better known as the Deciever or Satan if you will.
These versions are in opposition to each other for that very reason, yet you refuse to admit this even though you readily admit alot more when it fits your world view.
The majority of todays esoteric religions readily admit the connection between Enki and Satan and so do I, but God and Satan were never Brothers, even though through generational layering, Enki has tried to portray this view in his version of what happened, from what we know of Sumerian tablets.
If this is the deciever, why are you so ready to take his word over the biblical texts as given by God. Which of them could be lying? I'll put my money on Enki...
As to disobedient supernatural creatures, the horny angels were punished for their actions, right? So how are we to believe God would allow this Satan on his own to wreak havoc and misery for 6000 years? God is the all powerful creator, right? It doesn't make sense, which is why the Jews dismissed it. Besides, in one of the oldes books, Yahweh and Satan seem almost chummy, and Satan obeys Yahweh's every command and can harm no one without Yahweh's permission. This Old Testament Satan simply does not jive with the New Testament "Bogey Man Satan", but then, we know this Satan was largely inspired by the dualistic Persian Ahriman-devil.
It was never an "either - or" proposition. I don't believe the dragon Enki took a tiny sylus in his claws and made all of those little cunieform tablets. Humans did. Were the things they wrote about based on true events? If so, the Sumerian version is far more plausible. This does not mean the Hebrews lied. They remembered these SAME stories because they came from Sumeria, the Bible says so. But their fellow Sumerians who lived in the cities wrote these stories down at least 1000 years before the Hebrews did, and it is to be expected the story would become distorted after a millennia of retelling these stories around the campfire's of illiterate shepherd nomads.
In the Sumerian Version Adam is not the first man, he is just a man that works for Enki. Eden is a Sumerian word, and hymns stated Eden lay next to the stone age city of Eridu, and was Enki's city and garden. Archaeologically the Sumerian version is realistic and could have really happened, and his fully compatible with history and science save for the fact Enki is a "great serpent dragon of heaven".
The illiterate shepherds however exagerated elements of the story, making Adam the first man, despite hundreds of thousands of years of human ancestry before this. And they say this man was immortal. And they say no animals ate meat before this. Likewise, the Sumrian flood story is more realistic. But the stories are not "opposites" . The Hebrews after a 1000 years simply forgot the Enlil caused the flood, but Enki warned Noah, little things like that. They seemed to meld elements of both Enki and Enlil together to create Yaw. It is as innocent as one storyteller abreviating the story so he cold take a leak.
I am not taking "Enki's side". I am merely taking the oldest recorded version. The Sumerian writers recorded both good and bad things about Enki, and made him look foolish many times. On the contrary, imagine it was God who wanted us to find the Sumerian books and learn the truth that the illiterate Hebrew Shepherds had forgotten.
As for the stories from the time of Moses and later, then of course the Hebrew versions are the most reliable, and they are often quite compatible to non-hebrew records.
I never said GOD and Satan were brothers. I said that according to Sumerian legends Enlil and Enki were brothers, and these creatures are are later identified as Yahweh and Satan. But in both Cannanite and Hebrew theology, both Yahweh and Satan were subservient to the Creator God (El) just as Enlil and Enki both served the Creator God Anu. It was the later Jews that changed the old stories, and the Christian would change them more.
QUOTE (EmpressStarXVII @ Oct 21 2007, 05:33 AM)
Yes, I have to agree. I don't like the scare tactics of sermons. There is so much more that could be spoken about.
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllove
love gets me, not fear and i believe i am ordinary
QUOTE (Jor-el @ Oct 21 2007, 07:47 AM)
So, if they look human they will have the image of God, but if they don't they will just be intelligent animals?
if they are human, they're given Spirit that belongs to Allah. Allah Almighty is flawless, excellent, so is Spirit.
if a creature looks like human then it is a demon. have you ever seen one?
if there've been UFOs in this planet, their drivers were humanbeings. no animals can go that far. only human has certain tool (intellect) to do that kind of stuff.
i don't believe animals have intellect. they have abilities and they use them.
let me ask you something. you know there are bacterias cause diseases. however there are products to fight them, they develop and medicines become effectless. would you say those bacterias have intellect to do that? i believe they are programed to develop. they don't think or try to find a way out, they just simply do it.
QUOTE (lava @ Oct 23 2007, 12:53 AM)
if they are human, they're given Spirit that belongs to Allah. Allah Almighty is flawless, excellent, so is Spirit.
if a creature looks like human then it is a demon. have you ever seen one?
if there've been UFOs in this planet, their drivers were humanbeings. no animals can go that far. only human has certain tool (intellect) to do that kind of stuff.
i don't believe animals have intellect. they have abilities and they use them.
let me ask you something. you know there are bacterias cause diseases. however there are products to fight them, they develop and medicines become effectless. would you say those bacterias have intellect to do that? i believe they are programed to develop. they don't think or try to find a way out, they just simply do it.
if a creature looks like human then it is a demon. have you ever seen one?
if there've been UFOs in this planet, their drivers were humanbeings. no animals can go that far. only human has certain tool (intellect) to do that kind of stuff.
i don't believe animals have intellect. they have abilities and they use them.
let me ask you something. you know there are bacterias cause diseases. however there are products to fight them, they develop and medicines become effectless. would you say those bacterias have intellect to do that? i believe they are programed to develop. they don't think or try to find a way out, they just simply do it.
Actually, early Islamic beliefs acknowledge special wisdom and supernatural abilities to kinds of serpents, just as we see the cunning serpent in Genesis and Jesus telling his disciples to be "wise as serpents". But in all of these cases, these are not natural snakes, but a kind of supernatural creature called the seraphim which the Jews translated to the Greek word Drakon, and these "dragons" appear as both fearsome but wise creatures in almost every human culture. I once read in Islamic literature of a giant snake or dragon with a specific name that judges human souls in heaven, and we see a parallel in the Apoc. of Baruch, used by both early Christians and Jews, (though ultimately not inlcluded in the Bible) of a giant serpent or dragon in heaven that consumes "those who lived their lives wickedly".
So according to Islamic beliefs, there is at least one kind of "animal" that possesses intellect, though it is not necessarily a natural animal, but a heavenly creature more like an animal than like a human in physical form. These creatures work for El the creator (called Allah in Islam).
QUOTE (Jor-el @ Oct 22 2007, 10:51 PM)
What I find amusing is people who haven't the foggiest notion of what is being talked about since they aren't even within the context of the conversation, coming up and simply misinterpreting what they read since they obviously didn't take the time or the trouble to get into context.
The fantasy I'm speaking of is as follows, and I quote verbatim:
By the way, the context as DC will also clearly demonstrate, if he so desires, is that neither of us accept that this is the case.
In his view, an all good God could not have created an evil being called Satan, which is why he doesn't believe that such a figure actually exists in the context that christians portray him. In my perspective, God created all heavenly and earthly beings with free will, that is the price God paid for not having a bunch of robots, serving him. The downer is that some of these beings might at some point choose to do things their own way, angelic and human beings included.
The fantasy I'm speaking of is as follows, and I quote verbatim:
By the way, the context as DC will also clearly demonstrate, if he so desires, is that neither of us accept that this is the case.
In his view, an all good God could not have created an evil being called Satan, which is why he doesn't believe that such a figure actually exists in the context that christians portray him. In my perspective, God created all heavenly and earthly beings with free will, that is the price God paid for not having a bunch of robots, serving him. The downer is that some of these beings might at some point choose to do things their own way, angelic and human beings included.
Why does god need servants in the first place ?????
I'm amused that your'e amused that I'm amused so now we can all be amused.
Your'e right I haven't the foggiest notion and i don't have a potion to see through your notion
You are misnterpreting my interpretation of your misinterpretation.
So I'm diving head first into the conversation..............WAIT there isn't any water. It's not holding any water !!
Man is the regenerator of evil. Evil is our baby. Evil is a byproduct of ignorance not of the
.I'll admit I was evil for butting in. Sorry.
I'll get lost before more evil finds me
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Oct 23 2007, 02:22 AM)
As to disobedient supernatural creatures, the horny angels were punished for their actions, right? So how are we to believe God would allow this Satan on his own to wreak havoc and misery for 6000 years? God is the all powerful creator, right? It doesn't make sense, which is why the Jews dismissed it. Besides, in one of the oldes books, Yahweh and Satan seem almost chummy, and Satan obeys Yahweh's every command and can harm no one without Yahweh's permission. This Old Testament Satan simply does not jive with the New Testament "Bogey Man Satan", but then, we know this Satan was largely inspired by the dualistic Persian Ahriman-devil.
Yes they were punished, but we also know that not all of the "outlaws" indulged in such acts, therefore many of them are still free to do their own thing.
Tell me something. have you ever swum in a river against a strong current? No matter how hard you try, you are still swept in the direction of the current, right?
God is like that, no matter what schemes theses angels come up with, they are fighting against a stronger current they can swim against. God knows all their schemes, he also, like a good tactician, knows how to manipulate their little plans to his own benefit, all without taking their free will from them.
The example you give of Job, is exemplary in this respect. Satan got his chance, and God simply demonstrated that no matter what Satan could do, God was always one step ahead. The chumminess you speak of, can also be demonstrated to be slightly ironic, concerning Satan. remember, when God asks Satan where had been, and Satan answers, "here and there"? Don't you think God knew perfectly well, where Satan had been, why the need for such a question? God was leading him on.
I also don't believe in a dualistic world view DC, Satan is not an equal to God in any respect, but he certainly does try his best. That is the position of todays church by the way, No-one believes in this "Boogy-man" who is an equal but opposite to God. There is no Yin and Yang here.
QUOTE
It was never an "either - or" proposition. I don't believe the dragon Enki took a tiny sylus in his claws and made all of those little cunieform tablets. Humans did. Were the things they wrote about based on true events? If so, the Sumerian version is far more plausible. This does not mean the Hebrews lied. They remembered these SAME stories because they came from Sumeria, the Bible says so. But their fellow Sumerians who lived in the cities wrote these stories down at least 1000 years before the Hebrews did, and it is to be expected the story would become distorted after a millennia of retelling these stories around the campfire's of illiterate shepherd nomads.
I never said Enki wrote the stuff himself, but he did get people to do so, for him. Just like God used a men to write for him on many different occasions. Naturally, we see some very brief comments of one or two embarresing situations he got himself into, but he always came out on top. It just made him more likable to the general population.
I would also like to remind you that The 1st five books of the bible were written by Moses himself for the most part. That includes Genesis. God himself led him to write those words, we don't have to rely on ignorant sheperds who passed the stories along orally for generations. God got it right the 1st time round.
The fact that the biblical version actually conflicts and in some instances blatantly contradicts the Sumerian version of the same events, demonstrates to me that what is in the bible is the unvarnished truth, without the twisting and invention of Satan /Enki. If this is not the case, then God is himself a liar and we don't want to go down that path, do we?
QUOTE
In the Sumerian Version Adam is not the first man, he is just a man that works for Enki. Eden is a Sumerian word, and hymns stated Eden lay next to the stone age city of Eridu, and was Enki's city and garden. Archaeologically the Sumerian version is realistic and could have really happened, and his fully compatible with history and science save for the fact Enki is a "great serpent dragon of heaven".
In the Sumerian version, Enki created mankind not Enlil. It was he that caused mankind to become divided into different languages and nations. He was the father of Marduk who later became the head of the Babylonian pantheon. He that told Adapa not to eat of anything given by Anu (thereby depriving man of eternal life), and the list goes on...
QUOTE
The illiterate shepherds however exagerated elements of the story, making Adam the first man, despite hundreds of thousands of years of human ancestry before this. And they say this man was immortal. And they say no animals ate meat before this. Likewise, the Sumrian flood story is more realistic. But the stories are not "opposites" . The Hebrews after a 1000 years simply forgot the Enlil caused the flood, but Enki warned Noah, little things like that. They seemed to meld elements of both Enki and Enlil together to create Yaw. It is as innocent as one storyteller abreviating the story so he cold take a leak.
And how long ago did Adam / Adapa live according to the Sumerian legends themselves? He lived in the times before the flood, right at the beginning. He was also the 1st of the 7 men and 7 women created by Enki. He was given the Kingship, which came down from heaven in Eridu. He was in fact the very 1st human king.
If you actually count those years as given by the scribes in the Kings list, you'll be in for a shock, because we're talking over 400,000 years of time. Right about when the 1st Homo-Sapiens came into existence.
QUOTE
I am not taking "Enki's side". I am merely taking the oldest recorded version. The Sumerian writers recorded both good and bad things about Enki, and made him look foolish many times. On the contrary, imagine it was God who wanted us to find the Sumerian books and learn the truth that the illiterate Hebrew Shepherds had forgotten.
But if, as we see in Deuteronomy, God divided the unbelieving nations among the 70 sons of God, he also literally gave these nations over to the fallen Angels. As such they also had full spiritual control of all religious beliefs at that time, why do you think the pantheons are so similar? Why do you think paganism was so similar everywhere you went at this time?
QUOTE
As for the stories from the time of Moses and later, then of course the Hebrew versions are the most reliable, and they are often quite compatible to non-hebrew records.
But MOses wrote the 1st five books anyway, so that makes them extremely reliable as well.
QUOTE
I never said GOD and Satan were brothers. I said that according to Sumerian legends Enlil and Enki were brothers, and these creatures are are later identified as Yahweh and Satan. But in both Cannanite and Hebrew theology, both Yahweh and Satan were subservient to the Creator God (El) just as Enlil and Enki both served the Creator God Anu. It was the later Jews that changed the old stories, and the Christian would change them more.
Yes you did, since in my Book God is El / Yahewh. It isn't my fault that you choose to seperate these two names into two different beings. The non hebrew records bear me out since in Ugarit, El is equated with Yahweh, there is no seperation of identities between the two.
QUOTE (lava @ Oct 23 2007, 06:53 AM)
if they are human, they're given Spirit that belongs to Allah. Allah Almighty is flawless, excellent, so is Spirit.
if a creature looks like human then it is a demon. have you ever seen one?
if there've been UFOs in this planet, their drivers were humanbeings. no animals can go that far. only human has certain tool (intellect) to do that kind of stuff.
i don't believe animals have intellect. they have abilities and they use them.
let me ask you something. you know there are bacterias cause diseases. however there are products to fight them, they develop and medicines become effectless. would you say those bacterias have intellect to do that? i believe they are programed to develop. they don't think or try to find a way out, they just simply do it.
if a creature looks like human then it is a demon. have you ever seen one?
if there've been UFOs in this planet, their drivers were humanbeings. no animals can go that far. only human has certain tool (intellect) to do that kind of stuff.
i don't believe animals have intellect. they have abilities and they use them.
let me ask you something. you know there are bacterias cause diseases. however there are products to fight them, they develop and medicines become effectless. would you say those bacterias have intellect to do that? i believe they are programed to develop. they don't think or try to find a way out, they just simply do it.
The point is that any race of ET's we will eventually find will not be at all similar to amnkind in any way at all. Yet they will be more advanced than man in all respects, including technology. We are not talking of animals in any way but inteligent beings who are probable superior to mankind in most respects. Are you saying that just because they don't look human they are not participants in the image of God? Even when it was God himself who also created these beings on their own himeworld, probably long before man was created?
Hello, I'm new here. I have read some opinions on this interesting issue. It's really nice place to learn.
QUOTE (Jor-el @ Oct 23 2007, 02:54 PM)
Yes they were punished, but we also know that not all of the "outlaws" indulged in such acts, therefore many of them are still free to do their own thing.
Tell me something. have you ever swum in a river against a strong current? No matter how hard you try, you are still swept in the direction of the current, right?
God is like that, no matter what schemes theses angels come up with, they are fighting against a stronger current they can swim against. God knows all their schemes, he also, like a good tactician, knows how to manipulate their little plans to his own benefit, all without taking their free will from them.
The example you give of Job, is exemplary in this respect. Satan got his chance, and God simply demonstrated that no matter what Satan could do, God was always one step ahead. The chumminess you speak of, can also be demonstrated to be slightly ironic, concerning Satan. remember, when God asks Satan where had been, and Satan answers, "here and there"? Don't you think God knew perfectly well, where Satan had been, why the need for such a question? God was leading him on.
Tell me something. have you ever swum in a river against a strong current? No matter how hard you try, you are still swept in the direction of the current, right?
God is like that, no matter what schemes theses angels come up with, they are fighting against a stronger current they can swim against. God knows all their schemes, he also, like a good tactician, knows how to manipulate their little plans to his own benefit, all without taking their free will from them.
The example you give of Job, is exemplary in this respect. Satan got his chance, and God simply demonstrated that no matter what Satan could do, God was always one step ahead. The chumminess you speak of, can also be demonstrated to be slightly ironic, concerning Satan. remember, when God asks Satan where had been, and Satan answers, "here and there"? Don't you think God knew perfectly well, where Satan had been, why the need for such a question? God was leading him on.
The point about the chumminess, is that this Satan is on friendly terms with Yahweh just as we basically see in thier Sumerian versions, Enki and Enlil. And in reality I see this incident as actually another example of Enki "tricking" Enlil, just as he did to spare the Sumerian Noah against Enlil's wishes to drown them all.
These watcher dragons were not allowed to harm the people of another watcher dragon, which is why the Israelites themselves had to exterminate the Cananites for Yahweh to drive away Ba'al Haddad. This is why Enki-Satan had to have permission from Yahweh to harm any of Yahweh's humans. But what was Satan's motive? To prove the infidelity of Job? No. It was to eat all of the livestock and their human shepherds that belonged to Yahweh, with Yahweh's own permission! Job makes little sense unitl you realize the true nature of both Yahweh and Satan. Yahweh at this time still demanded first born humans of the hebrews as well as various animals, which the bible states he physically consumed. By this time Enki had long lost his own human city in Eridu, and now had to hunt outside the confines of dragons who still had tribes like Yahweh. So he tricked Yahweh into letting him eat all of Jobs servants and cattle he could. This is Satan's real motive, he is just as dragon, not a spiritual bogeyman out to steal our souls and take them to Greek Hades..
QUOTE (djohan @ Oct 24 2007, 01:08 AM)
Hello, I'm new here. I have read some opinions on this interesting issue. It's really nice place to learn.
Welcome to the forum
QUOTE (djohan @ Oct 24 2007, 08:08 AM)
Hello, I'm new here. I have read some opinions on this interesting issue. It's really nice place to learn.
Good to have you around ...
Sama
QUOTE (Cradle of Fish @ Oct 18 2007, 07:01 AM)
That explains why I'm thinner in my dreams.
Only if you had a light supper ! I try doing that , too !
QUOTE (lava @ Oct 5 2007, 08:02 AM)
hi
with priceless help of my Master, i would like to tell you about what each of us were given from birth.
we are given 3 bodies:
1-The physical body that belongs to this world, the zahiri world.
2-The soul that leaves our physical body when we sleep (also when we faint and die); this is the body we see in our dreams.
3-The spirit that was blown by Allah.
i think it is not necessary to talk about physical body.
the second one that mentioned above is soul. it is generally named 'ego'
91 / ASH SHAMS - 7:Ve nefsin ve mâ sevvâhâ.
I swear, that soul (ego) was given the proportion and order (at 7 steps).
91 / ASH SHAMS - 8: Fe elhemehâ fucûrehâ ve takvâhâ.
And to that (soul (ego)) is inspired the TAQWA (piety) (of Allah) and the FUJJUR (what Satan says);
91 / ASH SHAMS - 9:Kad efleha men zekkâhâ.
The one who purifies his soul (ego) attains salvation (enters Paradise).
there are 19 vices within the heart of soul. therefor the heart of the soul is 100% of darkness. we need to purify our egos. the third body (the Spirit) we have was blown by Allah Almighty. Spirit belongs to Allah.
We were created equally. Our spirits heart is 100% full of virtues. It has an identitiy that fullfils all of Allahs orders and abstains from doing what He prohibited. Our souls is 100% full of vices. It has been created with a characteristic that refuses all of Allahs orders and fulfills what Allah prohibited.
we are also given free will to chose between. i believe if we were not able to chose, if we were not given free will then there wouldnot be hell or heaven.
imo, when a person purifies his soul, the heart of his soul gains the same virtues that Spirit has. Spirit naturally has it because it already belongs to Allah. Spirit is simply perfection. i believe that's the Image of Allah. so human beings need to purify their egos to turn those 19 vices into virtues that Spirit of Allah has.
with priceless help of my Master, i would like to tell you about what each of us were given from birth.
we are given 3 bodies:
1-The physical body that belongs to this world, the zahiri world.
2-The soul that leaves our physical body when we sleep (also when we faint and die); this is the body we see in our dreams.
3-The spirit that was blown by Allah.
i think it is not necessary to talk about physical body.
the second one that mentioned above is soul. it is generally named 'ego'
91 / ASH SHAMS - 7:Ve nefsin ve mâ sevvâhâ.
I swear, that soul (ego) was given the proportion and order (at 7 steps).
91 / ASH SHAMS - 8: Fe elhemehâ fucûrehâ ve takvâhâ.
And to that (soul (ego)) is inspired the TAQWA (piety) (of Allah) and the FUJJUR (what Satan says);
91 / ASH SHAMS - 9:Kad efleha men zekkâhâ.
The one who purifies his soul (ego) attains salvation (enters Paradise).
there are 19 vices within the heart of soul. therefor the heart of the soul is 100% of darkness. we need to purify our egos. the third body (the Spirit) we have was blown by Allah Almighty. Spirit belongs to Allah.
We were created equally. Our spirits heart is 100% full of virtues. It has an identitiy that fullfils all of Allahs orders and abstains from doing what He prohibited. Our souls is 100% full of vices. It has been created with a characteristic that refuses all of Allahs orders and fulfills what Allah prohibited.
we are also given free will to chose between. i believe if we were not able to chose, if we were not given free will then there wouldnot be hell or heaven.
imo, when a person purifies his soul, the heart of his soul gains the same virtues that Spirit has. Spirit naturally has it because it already belongs to Allah. Spirit is simply perfection. i believe that's the Image of Allah. so human beings need to purify their egos to turn those 19 vices into virtues that Spirit of Allah has.
Hey there lava ,
Another interesting thread .
Now , it is the word ' image ' that attracts me here ... an image is the reflexion of something , a reproduction , a mental display , a factice compared to the authentic . could also mean memory ...
This leads me to my question , since human is the image of another entity , is human "genuine" ?
Are we a memory of ome long gone event ?
An image is always still . .it is passive and has no free will ??! Does God look like us .. since we are his image ... ?
QUOTE (lava @ Oct 5 2007, 05:02 AM)
hi
with priceless help of my Master, i would like to tell you about what each of us were given from birth.
we are given 3 bodies:
i think it is not necessary to talk about physical body.
the second one that mentioned above is soul. it is generally named 'ego'
with priceless help of my Master, i would like to tell you about what each of us were given from birth.
we are given 3 bodies:
i think it is not necessary to talk about physical body.
the second one that mentioned above is soul. it is generally named 'ego'
the number 3(Tri) is a great number
there are 3 pure races
Asia,Africa,Europa
3 planets with life
Jupiter,Venus and Earth
3 states of mind/body
truth of body, enjoyment of body, and activity of body
#1 Jupiter next to #3 earth
its a small world after all
Jor-el, most of your opinions are fascinating but when you try to include E.Ts alongside humans (though they may have indeed existed long before us and have greater intellect than us) in reference to the image of 'God' then should'nt you also include the other 'creatures' that we know DO 'exist' e.g. animals, or are you only refering to organisms with intelligence and understanding?
i have a image of God
this i Believe is the true face of God
upper middle right of picture in the clouds
this i Believe is the true face of God
upper middle right of picture in the clouds
Er... what about the upper middle left?
I don't see anything in the picture red_rum; but it is quite pretty 
QUOTE (red_rum @ Oct 24 2007, 05:27 PM)
i have a image of God
this i Believe is the true face of God
upper middle right of picture in the clouds
this i Believe is the true face of God
upper middle right of picture in the clouds
that looks like Medusa to me
QUOTE (jaks.ko.ex @ Oct 24 2007, 04:23 PM)
Jor-el, most of your opinions are fascinating but when you try to include E.Ts alongside humans (though they may have indeed existed long before us and have greater intellect than us) in reference to the image of 'God' then should'nt you also include the other 'creatures' that we know DO 'exist' e.g. animals, or are you only refering to organisms with intelligence and understanding?
No we shouldn't include them, because authority was not given to them to be Shapers of the image of God on this world. That job was uniquely given to human beings.
I include ET's because God in his wisdom also gave them authority to be shapers ON THEIR OWN WORLDS! When they eventually come, they will be visitors to our own home, they weren't given authority to rule here.
But then I also believe that what we take for ET's nowadays regarding the UFO phenomenon is merely a smoke screen for a spiritual and physical invasion by the fallen angels.
QUOTE (Jor-el @ Oct 24 2007, 06:42 PM)
No we shouldn't include them, because authority was not given to them to be Shapers of the image of God on this world. That job was uniquely given to human beings.
I include ET's because God in his wisdom also gave them authority to be shapers ON THEIR OWN WORLDS! When they eventually come, they will be visitors to our own home, they weren't given authority to rule here.
But then I also believe that what we take for ET's nowadays regarding the UFO phenomenon is merely a smoke screen for a spiritual and physical invasion by the fallen angels.
I include ET's because God in his wisdom also gave them authority to be shapers ON THEIR OWN WORLDS! When they eventually come, they will be visitors to our own home, they weren't given authority to rule here.
But then I also believe that what we take for ET's nowadays regarding the UFO phenomenon is merely a smoke screen for a spiritual and physical invasion by the fallen angels.
I haven't followed the posts between you two, but this one caught my eye. I thought I would ask you a hypothetical question. If beings on other planets are given authority to be the shapers on their own world, and divine knowledge of God; what would their holy book be like? For the sake of argument, lets say Christianity is the only true religion. Indisputable. The son of God was born on Earth and spread the good word, but who spread the same word on the other planets? How would the other beings know that the son of God sacrificed his life to save mankind? That is a very important aspect of Christianity that separates itself from any other religion.
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