Psychokinesis and Skepticism

How is anyone with any kind of rational thinking supposed to believe any of these claims without solid evidence?

I put this thread here to give the people that make these bold claims a chance to thoroughly explain themselves,
in hopes that some of us skeptical people may get a better understanding as to why some of the people on here
stand so strongly by what they believe.

I am very interested in knowing why some people think the way they do.

Edit: Sorry for the spelling mistake in the heading, it's supposed to be "Psychokinesis and Skepticism."

Thanks,
Tom

Wow, Tom ... I would almost think we were sychically connected! I had just finished the below post and was going to start a thread, when I saw yours! So here it is .. to add to your thread .....

It was going to be titled: Where's the Beef? (From an old Wendy's Commerical.)
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Where is the “BEEF”?

That was a line to an old Wendy’s commercial for their hamburgers. So why this title for a Metaphysics Thread, excellent question!! I am glad you asked.

I’ve gotten a few PM’s recently asking, “What and/or Where are the “Kazuma’s” and “Darkbreeds” and “Randy”s” of the group? Where did they all suddenly go??”

This is a very good question, where are these personality types and their fantastic claims of Psionic, X-Men, Anime and Jedi powers? What happened to all these fantastic power posts?

They went into fearful hiding, that is where the ‘talkers’ went. Into fearful hiding, and this speaks very loud to the reality (lies) of their claims. I do not fear them, why do they fear me?

See that’s the whole point, despite their ‘spiritual’ and other ‘mumbo jumbo’ claims, their avoidance is out of fear! Fear of what … they know they cannot back up what they say, it’s just that simple. They know only and all to well, they would fail and thus make fools out of themselves. “It is better to be thought a fool, then open one’s mouth and remove all doubt!” So they refuse to remove the already clear doubt that has been removed. See no action is just as loud, in this focal point as action. Either way – these talkers loose serious face and have. That is why they avoid, like the plague stepping up to the back up their talk w/any action, because they know and we know all to well, they cannot do this.

So this is the problem, everyone is well aware of this, so why is this a problem w/the talkers? We know you cannot do what you talk and you know it … so what is really the problem here?

I’ve been told a ‘few’ times that I have killed the Metaphysics Forum w/my personal challenge w/the Pin (Psi) Wheel Challenge. Well it did die, as I have been told a ‘few’ times, when I put up my $100.00 - $300.00 - $500.00 to $1,000.00 Pin (PSI) Wheel challenge.

Now the funny thing is – this Pin (PSI) Wheel in many Psionic Sites is ‘sold’ as the “baby step” to develop telekinetic powers. Therefore, it is very safe to see the facts – NO ONE HAS MASTERED THIS “BABY STEP”!!

I’ve been met w/a lot of excuses as to why people they do not take the challenge: “I don’t need the money!” That one just makes me laugh to no end. Good grief, that is about the lamest of excuses I’ve ever heard! Who honestly cannot use an extra $1,000.00 … come on, be real!!

“This is spiritual to me, not about money!”, again, come on – give me a royal break, pahlease. I don’t care how spiritual anyone is, we all have bills to pay, I don’t care how spiritual you are, you have rent, you need food, you have bills to pay. LOL … again, just another seriously lame excuse.

The Bottom Line once again is clear… You ‘talkers’ know clearly you cannot do the things you talk about. You know you can offer no credible or verifiable proof. We know it too.

As in the Wendy’s commercial, “Where’s the Beef?” It is asked, “Where’s the proof?” Why is is ALWAYS excused away? Why do the Skeptic’s keep looking for valid and credible proof, but you consistently offer none? Why do you run and hide in fear? Why is it that I have been told by some of the members of other “Psionic/Psi” groups that I would be banned if I joined? Talk about F E A R!! I do not fear you, why do you fear me?

It is simple: I ask for the one thing you all know you cannot offer and provide: Credible and Valid Proof ..... It is just that simple .....

I totally agree with both of you, how is anyone supposed to believe anyone when they show no proof of their claimed abilities? Seriously, it just isnt done. You can make up these incredibly ridiculous claims but they dont mean anything unless they cant back it up.

I especially love it when people say "Science says its possible." I want see the article, the date, and the theory.

Hope this thread takes off,

Good job guys.

Thank you Caelum! I am glad you have an understanding as to why some of us rational thinkers are skeptical.

As far as when people saying science says "Somethings are possible!" I think this is pertaining to an atomic level dealing
with quantum physics! Particles seem to act different than normal on an atomic/subatomic level.

But, even in science saying that energy which we are all made up of has the ability to some amazing things,
Even einstein himself is well known for rejecting some of the claims of quantum mechanics. While clearly inventive in this field, he did not accept the more exotic corollaries of quantum mechanics, such as the lack of deterministic causality and the assertion that a single subatomic particle can occupy numerous areas of space at one time. He also noticed some of the more exotic consequences of entanglement and used them to formulate the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox, in the hope of showing that quantum mechanics has unacceptable implications. The Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox shows that measuring the state of one particle can instantaneously change the state of its entangled partner, although the two particles can be an arbitrary distance apart. However, this effect does not violate causality, since no transfer of information is possible.

This is in no way saying that people have special abilities like telekinesis.

Anyway, back to the topic! How is anyone supposed to believe a claim without solid evidence?


Thanks,
Tom

[/quote]
Anyway, back to the topic! How is anyone supposed to believe a claim without solid evidence?
[/quote]


People like prey on stupid people? Seriously, some people will believe anything just because someone says its true. They wont even try to dispute it. I reckon its just insane, Logic tells us to debunk everything, but somewhere along the line its like logical thinking was smashed into smitherines and people are believing everything they hear.

Maybe it has something to do with PC saying that "All ideals and beliefs are validated if you believe in it." The reality is thats untrue, if I believe I am an all powerful being, is that true? No its not, because there is always going to be someone more capable than you somewhere down the line.

Seriously, Its stupid.

In regards to TK and other abilities I am past just being skeptical and have already concluded that such things simply do not and cannot exist. Those who come on here and post that they can do whatever it is they do are either complete nut jobs or liars looking for attention.

Here in is again the question that glares in the "believers face" - of all the "Teachers" - "Preachers" - "Couselors" - "Authors" and "Followers" .... why is it that not one of them has the ability to step up? Why do ALL OF THEM offer the same exact thing: E X C U S E S?

See there is not one single "Champion" that will rise to 'set the record straight'! They all and I do mean all --- RUN AND HIDE w/excuses being the first and last thing out of their mouths....

Yes, "Excuses" seems to be the latest trend for trying to explain why they can't prove these supposed abilities exist.
I personaly feel this is nothing more than a copout.

Tom, it is exactly that --- a "cop out" to try to "save face" ... but they only in their own eyes do they save face. It's certainly not seen or recognized or such here .. it's seen for exactly what it is ... A LAME EXCUSE AND COP OUT ... Nothing more and a whole lot less......

Some people reading this thread and reading our opinions seem to be misunderstanding what we are trying to express in this thread.

What we are trying to do here is to show kids, like little 12 year olds who come on here and make extravagant claims for attention, that that isnt on. We arent saying that they should not explore the metaphysics, its a great interest it really is. But what we are saying is that there needs to be a scientific approach to this, make a hypothesis, research, and experiment and what not. Make your opinions, theories, and what not before you come on here and make extravagant claims. Have the research to back up the results is all Im saying.

People need to be more careful is all I'm sayin.

Be able to back up your claims, it'll make for a more interesting chat.

Yes! And, it really is quite sad at how redundant these excuses become!

Anyway! How about it all you new-age believers, other than the usual beat around the bush routine to avoid looking silly!
Lets see some solid verifiable proof.

Good luck,
Tom

For myself, psychokinesis is not my strong-suit. I am more of a "seer." Although I have been told by the Buddhists that as you continue with deep meditation practices such as Yoga Nidra, for example, one may experience altered states and abilities as time goes on.

I can understand the frustration of not having evidence. If I were into psychokinesis I would certainly give it a try because I try to be open to possibilities, including laughing at myself when I am wrong.

But I do feel that the last time I was on this forum that I did step up to the plate with the Skeptic Challenge. However one may feel about the topic matter, I volunteered to read people here. And I believe I did close to 40 readings within a span of a few short days before I burnt out and had to stop. That isn't something I've ever done before: reading that many people so fast and on the internet. So it was a wonderful experience that taught me much about myself. And I believe that some folks around here got a kick out of it as well just watching it.

So don't think that every person who makes a claim isn't interested in giving you evidence. The internet provides limitations on a person like myself because I'm used to doing readings in person when I do them or sensing things in the everyday. The computer puts a middle-man between myself and other people. Still, I am game enough to try.

Then how about intuition? or empathy?

Dont get me wrong Tom personaly i dont really believe in Psychokinesis and such but I was wondering how you expect the people who claim to have these powers to prove themself over the internet. I would be as bold to say that if they sent you a video no mater how believable it was of them performing these feats you and many others would come up with a hundred and more ways it could be fake. So really the only way possible for them to prove themselfs would be for them to come to you and are you really willing to pay someone that most probarly would be a fake, to fly who knows what distances to see you in person if you are then im sorry just ignore my post.

STIR

It's not that they have to prove it over the internet but if your going to make silly claims like OH MY GOSH I HAVE SPECIAL POWERS I CAN CONTROL FIRE!!! or WOO HOO I CAN CONTROL THE WEATHER. Then why not go to the right sort of people who can actually test those abilities and make it known that it is actually possible. But instead alot of excuses are made or silly remarks like I dont have to prove anything or prove I cant do it or your just jealous because you cant do it.

I won't speak for Tom, but I will for myself.... I actually have a $1,000.00 challenge for anyone that can prove Telekinesis w/the Pin (PSI) Wheel. It is very specifcally outlined so that fraud, scams, tricks and such would be easily exposed and seen for what they are.....

As for Weather and other Psionic / Anime / Jedi / X-Men powers ... there are ways that credible and verifiable proof can be offered on the internet. The problem is - once these steps are outlined ... the Person Making The Claim, runs like hell with their posts full of excuses, name calling and insults. Which shows exactly the reality of not just their maturity - but also their claim.

I understand that part, but this site is for people to post their opinions or experiences in all sorts of different topics even if they are really dumb.

What do you mean, just say i could really control fire how could i prove this to you over the internet i don't understand.

As for your $1000 challenge would you really have paid someone if they did prove to you they had telekinesis powers or would you just say they faked it because even thats hard to prove over the net, plus even if you were sincere in saying you'll pay the money, im afraid not many people would believe you were so why should they prove it.


STIR

A. I would have to ask you for very specific answers and then set it up accordingly..... so with out more specifics, that is about as specific as I can get!

B. Yes I have already stated more than a few dozen times, I will pay the $1,000.00.

It's not that I think their topics are dumb, They would be very interesting if they were able to backup their claims instead of just making wild claims then getting in a huff when a some of UM'S members dont play along or agree with them. It's no good saying something like I can control the weather or shoot fireballs or teleport then just expect people to just play along without providing some sort of proof or going out to the correct people to have that ability tested.

No ones actually told me how you would get someone to prove their claims over the net. Its all good to ask and i know how annoying it is when people make up stupid excuses as to why the shouldn't prove it or just leave without even trying but how do you prove to someone over the internet that you really do have psychic powers.

STIR

To validate: Astral Projection and not Just Lucid Dreams:--> The Test.

Then ...

To prove Telekinetic w/the so called "Easy Baby Step" the "PSI WHEEL":---> THE $1,000.00 CHALLENGE!

The Astral Test has been excepted by only one person .. which I find curious. Seems if this is such a 'real deal' -- I have to ask why haven't other big talkers of Astral Projection stepped up?

The PIN (Psi) Wheel challenge has yet to have anyone at all step up .. .the money is still safe and collecting interest in the bank. Since the Pin (Psi) Wheel is "sold" as the beginners step to TK ... then where are all the Teachers, Preachers, and Big Talkers of this "Psi Wheel" --- they have all gone into serious hiding! (Which actually speaks very LOUD AND CLEAR ... fear of failure!

No there are valid challenges and tests submitted ... just so few takers of them ... Hmm ... wonder why?? Wonder why????

Seems to me here that talk about prize money is fruitless. The notable psychics never took money from their clients, and were supported predominantly by gifts.

Now, since people,especially skeptics, want to posit on this subject, let me do some.

Let's say I have worked for years to develop certain skills that would be considered paranormal, such as remote viewing, bilocation, or similar. Let's say also that in my research and learning of these and any accompanying skills, I've come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter what other people think about what I do, other than be frightened by it. Let's also say that during the development of these skills, and research into the why and how they might exist, I've developed a method by which I can use these skills to make money on the markets, and over the subsequent years, I've accumulated a respectable amount of personal wealth, in the millions of dollars.

Assuming the above: Why would I bother to subject myself to whimsical testing by anyone, for any amount of money?

More to the point, have these skeptics actually tried to do any psi stuff, and tried in a serious fashion? My wager would be that they have not, or through lack of intent, utterly failed, and therefore conclude that if they can't nobody can.

IT IS a natural human fact that any extraordinary powers are usually met with a reaction of either fear or being looked at as a nut case. It is not necessarily true that described psychic powers are superhuman, or fearful, and it is also true that certain of those powers have been validated, whatever anyone likes to think, such as the aura. Whether skeptics like it or not, the fact is, and has been for many years, that Kirlian photography supports the existence of the aura. You may go and find some websites that deny its existence or attempt disproof; however, those who do so need to find something else to occupy their time.

Heard of the witch trials of Salem? What goes on in the minds of skeptics is essentially the same thing. Leave these "psychics" to their own devices: eventually, they will conclude that either the power they claim does exist, or it does not. It is not for skeptics to decide what is real to them, and it is simply egotism that requires denigration of beliefs. If, for instance, I claim I can do something which I've already proved to myself, and some skeptic tells me it can't be done, my own reaction is quite simple: the skeptic has shown me he is an idiot with little, if any, common sense. And so, skeptics in general should step back and look at the reaction they get from others; it just may be, and probably is, the same reaction I had when reading this thread. As in, Who the h--- do these people think they are, some incredibly gifted super-intelligent super-humans who take it upon themselves to "educate" the masses?
Think about it.

Well, if I had these abilities, I'd subject myself to testing to prove to the world that there are still things unknown to us, to "open up" society to these kind of things. I think anyone who has these abilities would have a chance to teach the world something amazing.

I do agree with the rest of your post though, only I think that a true skeptic would not disprove anything just because there isn't alot (or maybe even any) of evidence. They'd be open minded and look at both sides. Most people here are just believers or disbelievers, no matter what you tell them or show them, they will only stick to their own ideas about the world.

Let's think of an example outside of this topic about folks who have tried to teach the world unknown things. We know about the Jackie Robinsons (they can play baseball too!) and the Howard Hughes (we can get a plane up there!) but how often do you hear about the many, many people how fall by the wayside and are destroyed before these people can get up that mountain? We ask a high price of our innovators who move society along. Even the foundations of modern science are full of people who were put to death for stating that the earth was not the center of the universe or had their careers destroyed because they submitted a thesis that disproved one that was well-liked.
I have learned in my life that many people do not really want to be amazed and dazzled. When faced with the unknown, the reaction is "flight or fight." And while I am not a believer in grand conspiracies, the fact is that the majority of research conducted my country (U.S.) is funded by the Defense Department. That speaks volumes to me about what the priorities are. If groundbreaking research can be turned into an atomic bomb, what will come of the knowledge we speak on in this thread? Even the religious orders, like the Buddhists for example, do not allow their students to flaunt these abilities nor do they take in just anybody to instruct them on how to access them.

You have a point there. But it doesn't apply to all those people claiming to have special powers on the internet. I can understand why most people wouldn't want to bear the burden of "exposing" something huge like this to the world. But there are still others who randomly post on forums claiming to have incredible abilities. If they are willing to make claims this way, why not do it through television or newspapers etc?

This issue becomes clouded. In a sense, I tend to agree with some skeptics in the sense that some people make claims of "powers" when simple explanations suffice, and those claims should not be made. That, however, lies as the responsibility of the claimant. If those people (man, it's too early here: I had to type 'people' three times to get it right!) as you say "randomly post on forums" making the claims, then perhaps they should be chastised.

My concept of living includes tolerance, a word which doesn't seem to be within the average skeptic's vocabulary. As Tannenisis mentioned, the world has been complemented by extraordinary people making extraordinary claims. The ones we know of have often been vilified, as the Wright brothers, Ben Franklin, and numerous others were, and those "skeptics" were supposedly men of science. The fact of the matter is that those few who post on forums such as this make their claims, as the psi powers; on the other side, those who claim to be scientific have little knowledge in fact of the scientific method. They just use it as a club, without the knowledge of application. That aspect, unfortunately, is not limited to the internet.

One of those infamous skeptics is the idiot who appears on many episodes of TV programs about odd phenomena (don't recall his name, as he's entirely forgettable). The guy is an absolute jerk, and I wouldn't take his word that there is a convenience store five blocks down the road, let alone what he says about anything else. Generally speaking, the instant someone claims skepticism, my hackles rise up and my attention span goes down.

Over the years, I've done some forays into attitudes, and more often than not, if I said I could do -whatever-, the claim was met with either fear or disbelief, as stated in my previous post. Whether I can do the -whatever- or not is immaterial, point being if I had that power, it is nearly certain I wouldn't be advertising it. The knowledge thereof would necessarily be limited to close friends.

I've made statements (not claims, as it's easy to show people these things) that there are means to generate power that defy physics. One could say this falls into the same category as psi powers, since physics denies even the possibility. The reaction to those statements, in general, is that either the individual is terribly interested or I am attacked for being a charlatan. However, this brand of skeptic is easily quieted by asking them questions that in their lack of scientific expertise they cannot answer. Unfortunately, a psi practitioner can't do the same thing.

Again, it is my attitude that it does not belong to skeptics to "educate" people. This rather aristocratic (therefore asinine) attitude only shows their ignorance of the vastness of the universe and the vastness of human potential, similar to the fellow who worked in the patent office that made the statement a century ago that we might as well close that office, since everything that could be invented has been. Right.

RabidCat ... there is a serious flaw in your "logic" -

I doubt you would come online and make any claims of Psi/Anime/X-Men/Jedi powers. So that makes your point, sorry: moot. Why? Because we wouldn't be having this dialog w/you. It's just that simple. So you are presenting a logic that just simply would not happen here. We are addressing what HAS happened on here... Two different worlds, my friend.... two different worlds......

The problem is -> People (teens and early 20's) come on here and other sites w/fantastic claims of Psi/Anime/X-Men/Jedi powers. Then they are shocked when they are asked the most logical question that has ALWAYS been asked from the beginning of time w/any kind of extraordinary claims: PROVE IT! This has always been the way it was - PROVE IT! It's very logical and I might also add, very rational to ask and expect proof. Other wise, why make the claim in any public forum?? Honestly what were they thinking if they were not expecting to be asked for proof of their claim. That they were just going to be blindly believed??

But a side note:
I know some good Remote Viewers - and they have NO problem stepping up to answer a skeptics doubts and showing exactly how it works and does it! The skeptic is left not a skeptic in or about Remote Viewing anymore ..... <-- so that was an excellent example! The good ones do PUT UP ... w/no real issues ..... But back to the topic at hand.....

We have a lot of teens and early 20's come on here with their Psi/Anime/X-Men/Jedi power claims and then get emo when they are asked the most OBVIOUS question that has been asked through out all of recorded history: Make any claim that is extraordinary ---> YOU WILL BE ASKED TO SUPPLY PROOF! So why is this suddenly the EXCEPTION???? Why are we suppose to be "tolerant of such constant lies?

Here is my problem with the skeptic side of anything: It seems to become a "duty" of that slice of the skeptic pie to, shall we say, Set things right, or to "educate" these young people (some of whom are older people). The question becomes just exactly who is anyone to say what is and what is not real? As stated, the universe is a big place, human potential is as big, and bashing the possibility that such psi power exists into dust is counterproductive to our own advancements.
It is well known that animals have much more extreme senses than do people. Why? If we take the scientific explanation, for instance, of the sense of smell, then any creature with a shorter nasal passage will not have as accurate a sense of smell as one with a longer passage. If you are familiar with animals, you know this is about as accurate as a wildlife biologist making the statement that a grizzly won't cross a road. Now extend that to humans. I've hunted with my Dad, who had senses at least equivalent to many wild animals. Instance: one trip, we were in the bottom of a valley, and he said there was an elk, bull elk, up on the hill. Naturally, I thought this was nonsense, until the elk showed himself towards the end of the hill. When I asked Dad how he knew, he said he smelled the elk. Now this bull was several hundred yards away when this happened.
This got me thinking about the "science" of everything. Who is it that has enough actual knowledge to pass judgement on such things? Is there really enough empirical knowledge to pass judgement upon me, if I write down here that I can be here AND somewhere else? Or can judgement be passed if I say that I disappeared into an alternate place one lunch hour? Perhaps I did.
What I say is that humanity is in a constant flux, new things are discovered daily, perhaps inclusive of psi powers.
This whole subject is, to me, an annoyance in the aspect that from the time I was very small, people told me "You can't do that." Asking why, the answer always became "Because" or "Because [following by some "reasoning" by someone who knew little more than I]". Now, having reached an older time, I find myself in defense of anyone who is in a discovery mode. He or she will eventually discover that the function either does or does not exist, and it is not my responsibility to discourage anyone from trying.
It is also a fact that certain aspects of life cannot be proved or disproved except by personal experience. Studying certain of the ancient philosophies has indicated that many aspects of life were known to those societies that are not now known, yet those same aspects are "scientifically unsound". The aforementioned fear reaction is not relegated only to the ignorant: it is also found in highly educated people, who will go to extremes to protect their own groundwork.
I don't mention some of the things I've done simply because it seems no one wishes to take up the challenges I offer. Yes, these things will take a long period, but it seems to me (having experienced some rather interesting aspects) that it is worthwhile for anyone, including skeptics, to put forth the effort to try some of these things. Yet, will they? Generally, that is a "no" answer. It becomes simply another "You can't do that because...." And this is why I maintain that those people should be left to do as they will.
Face it: it is possible that one, or more, of those people might discover something we don't know. It is possible that such skills were known, and are not now known, because of the narrow mindedness of the application of science. The scientific method itself allows for such exploration under the conditions I learned early on; there is no good reason not to allow this exploration.

The one thing that no one seems to want to point out, is that these claims have been going on for centuries. And despite that, there is NO conclusive evidence. None. Period. Sure, there are a bunch of interesting tid-bits, much like the evidence on ghosts and hauntings. But ZERO proof. And again, we are met with excuses. "Well, if I could control matter and move it with my mind, I wouldn't tell anyone and submit to experiments, blah blah blah." Yeah, right. I sincerely doubt it.

Rabid, again you use two different worlds that actually shows exactly what we are talking about!

You use the animal kingdom and the various sensory skills that they have.

Here is the problem w/that argument:

** It can be reproduced! They just do it, it's a part of their NATURAL lives and has ALWAYS been there.
** Animals do NOT give lame excuses as to why they will not prove their sense of smell and vision and so on.
** It's there for anyone and everyone to see! It doesn't only work in their den.
** It there to be clearly seen studied and understood.
** They do not AVOID and like I say, 'make lame excuses to avoid the reality ---> THEY CANNOT DO WHAT THEY CLAIM!

This is the big difference again and why your argument doesn't hold any water.

The argument of "Personal Experience". This is not a valid scientific argument. Why? Because more times then not, people are not aware of all the dynamics that are at play around them. I'm sorry but they are not! So once or twice 'strange experience' does not make a "fact", does not even make a theory. It might make a hypothesis, maybe. If they begin the road of valid and objective study as to what took place. But usually that is not possible for a lot of different and sometimes valid reasons.

Look at the all too common Pin (Psi) Wheel. I can easily tell you that 50% of them are not understanding the clear laws of physics of thermodynamics at play. The other 50% is divided between Scams, Tricks and illusions to fool people. But never and I do mean never has it validated even sorta kinda maybe supplied any evidence of Telekinetic abilities. This is also "sold" as the "baby step" in training of Telekinetic powers. Yet NO ONE HAS MASTERED IT --> except by mis-identifying and/or scamming people.

And as Eggumby has stated, in all the centuries of this, not one piece of credible or valid or verifiable evidence has ever surfaced. They have all been scams or illusions. That tells you a lot right there! All have been found to be Scams or Illusions or passing off Psychology or Science as "Psi".

I'm sorry, you are going to have to do better than this.

Plus you never did address: If you honestly had real Psi powers, you all but admitted you wouldn't talk about them, so we wouldn't be having this dialog in the first place.

If you actually have something with some substance to it, then please present it. Right now your logic and arguments simply are not working and do not hold any water at all. It is all 'hypothetical' and 'what if'. <--- Those are not real and do not work in this focal point, I'm sorry.

Because on the internet you can be anyone and do so for the most part anonymously. Same reason why folks will write into a magazine and request that their name be withheld. Nobody wants that negative attention. For a more mundane example, I've met people online who say right out that they are gay or atheist but can't do so in their regular life because of the repercussions.

Sure there are definitely wackos online and deluded people making extraordinary claims, some of them may even be young folks. However, that does not mean that every person out there is this way. Much of what I state backs my own personal reasons for staying mum on religion, politics, psychology and metaphysics. Its very, very easy to wreck a conversation with these topics that leads to other problems.

So the challenge is - how do you sort out the 'wack jobs' from those that are on the up-and-up. You look for PROOF! Like you provided - remember? Also remember how I gave you kuddos for doing so? This HAS TO BE THE STANDARD!

Remember these: Support Post #01 & Support Post #02

Both of these I readily stepped up and commented very positive support and respect for you. Why? Because you did the right thing - YOU STEPPED UP!!

So now I have to, wonder -- why is it now 'wrong' to expect this??

Replied in your other post just figured ill do the same here, You send me the money to buy all the required equipment for the Astral projection and not just Lucid dreams test then fly to where I live or pay for me to fly to where you live so you can watch the recording process to make sure no editing has been done and ill prove to you its astral projection and not just a lucid dream. Come on how much are you willing to do to disprove peoples claims.

STIR

This video is why I say its pointless to ask someone to prove their psychic powers over the internet in less you can come up with a good theory to how it was done without saying it was edited.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5NwRfMJgOQ...ted&search=

STIR

It's impossible to prove pk through a video, because people will always say it was edited. Most people will be convinced when they see it with their own eyes. And of course then there are some people who still won't believe it, saying it's just an optical illusion or something. The "claimers" aren't the only ones who make up excuses.

Thats what i've been saying the whole time all these skeptics say that these people are just lying or deluded but its impossible to prove something over the internet thats why i ask people to pay to come to me or pay for me to come over to them and then ill disprove or prove the possibility of psychic powers.

Actually Mattman - did this. The thing is this specific video was done based on a challenge I gave him. Here is the problem using this - He knowingly side stepped some specific protocols that I gave him and he agreed that he would meet. Problem: He found he could NOT pull of this scam w/the agreed upon protocols. Thus he had to make the protocols "moot" and "silly" and a 'waste of time' ...> Because bottom line: He could not pull it off w/them! Pure and simple.

Actually if you look at the $1,000.00 Challenge that I have posted here on UM, please show me how the "work around" would be accomplished? Please I would love to hear how you would work around the rules of the Challenge to pull off a 'scam'? The person even has to provide the video to be looked at by two video experts that KNOW what to look for in video editing. (Even digital.)

No there are protocols that can be given, that when honestly met, would either prove or debunk the "power", with no doubt. I'm sorry - but excuses like this are just that .. excuse as for the "believer" to say, "see I wouldn't convience you if I did give you a good video." No ... the protocols are set .... it's just that no one to date has been able to do it, without cutting the protocols out. They have to side step them to 'pull off their scam'. sigh.......

So SyM -- go for the $1,000.00 challenge. You even get pre-paid to start w/for the Pin (Psi) Wheel. The problem is - I know you couldn't prove TK w/my protocols in place. You simply could not do it. You would fail.

It seems quite pathetic that we as human beings are so limited by our own ignorance which is the very reason why you could never see the truth for what it really is. I, too, have experienced my own energy and am learning how to manifest it with abundance. You see, the mere fact that you say "show me" or "prove it to me" is not suggesting that if I prove it to you, you will become satisfied and thereby become a true believer. It is not a type of validation here---only a way to ease your mind which is operating on a physical level and is quite limited. I do not participate in such games nor do I feel that you or anyone like you should validate my existence or abilities. It may feel better to write-off anyone with these abilities, however, you have the same potential but your limited reality restricts you as if you lived inside of a box. How can you know what dwells outside when you don't know how to move beyond your limitations? If criticism makes you feel better about yourself then by all means continue. But, try to reflect inward and feel your heart when you ask the question, "Why am I here?"----And, because you don't know the answer this will bring you much struggle as you move through the pathways of life.

You do not need to prove this energy, the power is proof within itself.

Peace!Click to view attachment

I'm sorry - but you do not speak for me in the above ... U have no idea who I am, what I am looking for or what I want. I want Accountability, Crediblity, Validity, Integrity ... seems w/believers that this is not so important .... they rationalize, excuse and Metaphysically Subjectivity ..... but avoid totally of any OBJECTIVITY at all ..... Why is that??

Well, for the most part all the replies so far from the believers are what I expected!
Lets go ahead and, set one thing straight! The validation of a supposed power does not have
to be proven by a video over the internet, that is Jj's test! I would prefer validation through
a proper study from professionals with a controlled environment to rule out any possibilty of
a power being faked.

If a person really did have such an ability they would have no problem being tested in such a manner as this.
Other than that I will just have to say any excuse provided is nothing more than a total cop-out.


Thanks,
Tom

Before we hear more of Jjbreen's B&M about excuses, I have never made a paranormal claim here.

I think your "$1000 challenge" is bogus, plain and simple.



So, your challenge is fake in the same way that Randi's million dollar version is fake: you pick the judge, just as he picks his judge.

Unless someone believes in Santa Claus, they know you are never going to have to pay. All of the terms and conditions are windowdressing. The judge decides whether you have to pay, and you appointed the judge.

This is just like the blindfold in your other "challenge:" your butt is covered in case anything goes wrong.

You are also aware of another problem, as you disclosed in your reply to RabidCat, post #31 in this thread:



They might talk, if they were anonymous. But your challenge requires, for no reason that has anything to do with its ostensible, and often touted, purpose of proving or disproving psi powers, that any participant must publicly disclose in advance their real name, and city of residence:



You don't disclose your name (is it J. J. Breen - really?), nor your residence any more specifically than the Milky Way galaxy. Why not? I am not suggesting that you should, I am pointing out that you know a valid reason why most people would decline to do so.

I wouldn't do the disclosure part if you gave me $1,000 for just that much. Nevertheless, I have read repeatedly how nobody taking you up on your "offer" proves something about psi wheels.

Yes, it proves that believers in psi wheels aren't chumps.

I know you've made no claims ... but to slam me like this ... is totally out of line. Completely out of line as a mater of fact!

Yes ... my First & Middle Intials are J. J. and last name is Breen and yes I am 53 yrs old.
Yes there is $1,000.00 in the bank.
In fact, idiot w/foot in mouth --- at various times on other threads right here on the Metaphysics Forum, I've put a google map of my house w/home address! So .. ummmm. there you raving idiot!! I would first seriously check yourself and do a little simple research before you fly off the handle like this!! GOOD GRIEF!! Talk about open mouth and insert your foot!! So all one needed to do w/even a little rational deductive reasoning: Google Map, OH! Address. Look up on line... Address - who lives here. You would find: I DO, you idiot!!

Geesh, and calling a local Community College/College Science Teacher to monitor the test is BOGUS!!?? Since when? Wow .... How old are you???

It's easy to come online open your mouth and insert your foot. You've done a hell of a job! So prey tell ... besides not being able to prove anything about if I'd pay it and yes I would be totally ready and willing to pay it ... show the one rational flaw in the Challenge, please - don't attack me or my character.

Eight bits,

Wow...you are a little off the mark here.

Neither JJs challenge nor Randis is fake. Im sure you are referencing when Randi stated that he "always had an out". People are completely misunderstanding what he meant. He meant that he always has a test that is completely totally and utterly impossible to pass unless you have super powers. This is his out not some lie, fraud or bias that forces his outcome. Its not even Randis money anymore. What would he be out? Realizing that after years of searching, years of debunking, years of testing he can finally see that some super power of some sort is real. He has nothing to lose and the world to gain. But he is a fake right?

Also JJ is not the judge for this test. We are, the mods here at UM are, the public at large is the judge. The way JJs test is set up there is an extremely likely chance the test will either be pass or fail. No in between. No gray area. Black or white. Pass or fail. The way it is set up there is no way the results could be anything but clear.

As for people talking if they were anonymous. Nothing is going to happen to them if they come forward. NOTHING. The guberment isnt going to come and whisk them away. They wont be hunted down, captured and then experimented upon. If anything would happen to someone coming forward and proving their superpowers it would have happened already. You dont see people disappearing off of the face of the planet because of their video they put on Youtube. You dont see the government kicking down doors of the "psychic" that opened up shop down the street. What could possibly happen to someone coming forward? Answer me that.

JJ answered the disclosure part. Anyone with any time or interest could send JJ a letter through the USPS if they wished. He has not made locating him very difficult.

Sorry but it shows that believers in psi wheels are believers. Not provers. They are not brave. They are not truthful. They are cowards that hide behind excuses and the ability to be anonymous here on the internet. These is no reason keeping anyone that has one of these powers from stepping up and making some money. Hell give it a go and atleast you will have earned some respect from us even if you dont pass.

Kevin A.

Good for you that you posted your home address somewhere, if you did.

Nevertheless, you do understand that many people would not do that. Not even for a $1,000.
And you also understand that posting one's name and city of residence on the web has no bearing whatsoever on whether the person can spin a psi wheel.

Nevertheless, you insist that failing to accept your challege proves something about psi wheels.



Old enough to notice who chooses the judge, which would be you. And in order to reach the teacher, someone must first get the video through another judge, whom you also choose.

I doubt anybody can spin a psi wheel by solely mental means. But I also doubt that if someone could, they would bother to answer your challenge. No sensible person would deliver a pizza to you on those terms.

You do see the irony. Some people who think they can spin psi wheels misunderstand what they are seeing. They neglect other explanations for the phenomenon they report. You give them a stern lecture.

So, here's the rub. There are other explanations for the phenomenon you repeatedly report, that nobody takes your challenge. If you don't see that, then don't complain about believers being obtuse.

Yup, you are waaaay off the mark here. Maybe you should have asked a few folks about Jj before you trashed him.

Believers in psi-wheels aren't chumps, you are correct there. They are ill-informed, or mistaken.

I never said that Randi was a fake. When the famous challenge was supposed to have involved his money, it was worded in a way that made it unenforceable in an American court of law. There is nothing illegal, immoral, or fattening about that. Used car dealers make similar wisely-but-provocatively worded offers all the time. Nobody collects on those, either.



Ask a single woman living alone. Ask someone with children. Ask someone with a listed phone number.



And I answered back. So what? He knows that there are other people who do not and would not post their name and city on the web. He also knows that posting your name and city on the web has nothing to do with the ostensible purpose of his "challenge."



I don't claim to have any powers, and I wouldn't do the first step, which has nothing to do with powers, for the amount on offer. That's a reason.

If I did have such powers, then I could think of other, easier ways to make $1,000. That's another reason.

The issue is whether this stunt proves anything. It doesn't.



Read my post. I criticized the inauthenticity of an act. I did not trash the actor.

This challenge has been promoted repeatedly at UM. I have every right to present my views on it, and to compare it to other offers made by the same person which share a form of the same defect. You have every right to disagree, but to say I made a personal attack on someone because I disagreed with him? You are off the mark.

You know what I find rather incredible ...

You took no effort to actually check me out. If you had you would of easily found:

...> I offer actually quite a bit about myself. (All found on my Profile.)
..... Name. (Jj Breen) again real name.
..... Age. 53. I even posted my b'day, which was last Friday.
..... Sex: Male
........... Posted actual Google Map of my home & address on a few different threads when I started some online fun experiements.

You read my blogs, you find a lot of information there too! There is actually a lot of personal information about me here.... All you had to do was a little research. Also for what I have done for a living for the past 32 years is built on Integrity, Honestly, Accountablity, Crediblity and so on. My whole life has HAD to be based on this or I would be so out of work a long long time ago. This also has been mentioned a few times on UM. So trust me, I would screw my reputation up here online, for that would just be stupid and a total waste of time!

Now what is sad, you are a no name and come on here and voice a rather emotional based rant w/zero crediblity to start with. You've offered nothing compared to what I have given over the time that I have been online in UM. You voice a founless opinion on me, which right here shows a lot about the kind of person you are. You speak before you think, do any thoughtful research - even a little. How honestly do you expect your opinion to be respected???

Honestly think about that for 10 seconds.

It honestly isn't by anyone here, not one person see's you w/any crediblity or respect now.

Hey JJ, i've never tried psi wheel but if you can transfer a million dollar on my account right now,
i will do my best to do it even i know it is gonna be hard or impossible.
Just give me one year to practice.
If i can't do it, i will give you back your million dollar plus i pay you one hundred dollars because i lost.