I was looking on youtube for the Dawkins' eye evolution narrative. I went to click on the first video and low and behold


Link

Does anyone else find this disturbing people openly suppress science like this (and yes it is science, Dawkins goes through eye forms found in mollusks, which are very representative of how the eye evolved). I am constantly taken aback by things like this.

I understand the YECs and Christian evangelicals want their way to be correct and they want to make claims about the morality of the Christian religion, but here they openly attempt to suppress scientific information. I find this very disappointing that people would readily bring back the darkages given the chance.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.

Edit:

By the way, HERE is a working link to the video.

I think Creationists trying to suppress the scientific process are as despicable as evolutionists religious zealots trying to pass off interpretations of data as concrete fact.

Camlax is that you???? Is it really? Didn't you spend like a week straight telling us all that Richard Dawkins is just ONE random scientist that doesn't at ALL represent the Science field of Evolution?

And now that Creationists are shutting him down you say they are "suppressing science"


Can't you see the absolute hypocrisy in this statement? You are whining about a YOU TUBE video being shut down for copyright breach but scoff off the NOVA presentation as a "casual conversation" and no big deal?


When the tables are turned Dawkins is just a rogue scientist that doesn't represent the field when he's attacking Creationists, but when the Creationists attack back they are suppressing science?



Utter utter hypocrisy.


But I do agree with your sentiment and your outrage of people trying to censor other people's opinions.

what do you call someone who believes science is our understanding of how god made us and everything? because im one of those

Actually, I agreed with you Dawkins attacks religion and he is a fiery bulldog about it. However, he is still knows his science and this is a perfect example.

The reason I say they are suppressing science is not because it is just Dawkins, but because the eye has been one of those organs trumpeted as poster boy of irreducible complexity. That was one of Behe's big three (the eye, immune system and flagellum). Since two have fallen (and the immune system is close), it does not surprise me they wish to suppress information like this.

I mean the whole idea of irreducible complexity kinda falls apart with nothing that is irreducibly complex.....

Sounds like you think they have an agenda. Its just a rag tag band of crazy Creationists. I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill its just YOU TUBE for crying out loud.


Do you have any proof of this agenda?

wow what a pathetic and immature attempt at..... what ever it is they are attempting.

does anyone know how an establishment like that can take down a video based on copyright infringements?

Sounds like you don't think they/creationists have an agenda. Not to nit pick but doesn't every organization have an agenda hell even a knitting club has an agenda. What creationists want is the same as anyone that hold religion and what it states as fact, to be accepted by all. Of course there's an agenda and it's been crammed down our throats for thousands of years. You ask for prof! I think there are 6 billion example's of prof of an agenda and it's called the bible. This maybe making to big a deal of this but again? I'm all for Dawkins "bulldog" approach as it is needed in his field/belief.

can someone answer my question please?

When did he state otherwise?



It's censorship. Plain and simple, you don't see sciences shutting down video's or creationism - which is utterly wrong as nothing supports creationism. No, the bible is not proof

I've read a couple incidents of how videos that oppose creationism were shut down. It was on shoutwire a couple months back, so if you have free time search shoutwire - I'm not patient enough to go back through 300 news headlines =/

Oh and, nice opening personal attacks to your first post in here

Moderate?

Blasphemer? Heretic? (Nah I'm joking ) I don't think they have a name. Other than Moderate.

Truethat --

I have a great deal of respect for you and the things you post, and I definitely take your point about it just being a youtube video clip, but I strongly feel that the Creationists are not a crazy, rag-tag band. They've got money and clout and are driven by religious zeal and a burning desire to meddle in other people's lives.
I think that's scary.

--Jaylemurph

Shhhhhhh don't tell anyone Alot of people do state the bible is the truth though

i call that someone who thinks they grasp complicated scientific analysis, but.. obviously doesnt.

Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It has been abused by just about everybody.

Yes, it's very scary indeed. Creationists absolutely have an agenda, and they have a strategy to implement their agenda. Link to anti-evolution 'wedge' strategy.

Here they spell out their *goals*:



How's that for scary?

Why is it "scary" its no more scary to me than evolutionists deciding to make a war of it and push their own agenda.

Honestly people act as though if children are raised in religion that they are going to be brainwashed maniacs for the rest of their lives.

Being religious is a choice. I bet nearly EVERY one of you on here was raised in one sort of a religion or another.

And the only way for Science to win out over nut jobs like IDers and Creationist fanatics is to not sink to their level and to keep the discussion on SCIENCE and not religion.

Jayle, I agree with you. Agendas come in all forms. I just spent a week debating the science fans on here who seem to think the beloved scientist has superhuman powers that makes them exempt from human characteristics of ego acts.

All around we need science to go back into the lab and stop trying to push more than they can support and creationists to go back into the church and stay out of the science labs.

True, you realize that if we didn't have people like Tyson or even Dawkins, that the average person would have less of a scientific knowledge than they do now?
50% of the american people still think we coexisted with dinosaurs. Thats just plain idiotic. No one is going to go out an learn science on the college level just to be able to read journal style papers. You need educators to dull it down so they will understand.

I guess "scary" was the wrong word, I should have said "How's that for rudeness?".

You see, I'd never go into someone's church, temple, or mosque and tell then how to teach their religion. Therefore, I don't think it's appropriate that they should try and dictate what is taught in a science classroom. This is all quite simple actually. Teach religion in religion class; teach science in science class...problem over.

you look at this in an extremely simplistic and close minded way.
you have in one hand, religion, with religion's adgenda, which is the prosperity of that particular religion.
in the other hand you have science
with an adgenda, what is science's adgenda sweetie?
oh... the prosperity of human health?
the advance of medical science?
actually making a real attempt of trying to understand the complicated universe we live in by actually studying it?
do you understand my point or would you like me to continue?

DO YOU WANT TO STEP BACK FOR PERHAPS 1 MINUTE AND THINK ABOUT WHERE WE WOULD ALL BE WITHOUT SCIENCE'S ADGENDA????

JESUS CHRIST!!!!

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"Why is it "scary" its no more scary to me than evolutionists deciding to make a war of it and push their own agenda"

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To make a war of "it" science has been oppressed for thousands of years so that the doctrine could stay intact, science didn't start this "war" but science will win in the end. I find it scary to think that creationists want to suppress science and fly blind.

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"Being religious is a choice. I bet nearly EVERY one of you on here was raised in one sort of a religion or another."

Unquote

Yes being religious is a choice sort of ! I'm sure most here have been exposed to religion while growing up, but those that leave the fold do it through education. I know that sounds pompous but i believe that to be true.

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"And the only way for Science to win out over nut jobs like IDers and Creationist fanatics is to not sink to their level and to keep the discussion on SCIENCE and not religion."

Unquote

Your right science does only have one way to come out on top and thats through the use of the scientific method, not the I want to believe so it's true method.


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"Jayle, I agree with you. Agendas come in all forms. I just spent a week debating the science fans on here who seem to think the beloved scientist has superhuman powers that makes them exempt from human characteristics of ego acts."

Unquote

What I find funny is that science can explain away such "super human powers" such as walking on water and rising from the dead ect ect......

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"All around we need science to go back into the lab and stop trying to push more than they can support and creationists to go back into the church and stay out of the science labs."

Unquote

Science should go back and do what ? Creationism has very little in the way of support other then a simple belief where as science can support it's self through evidence and not heresy.

Sorry, I don't mean to tread on anyones beliefs but it's only fair that I express mine as well.

Peace

Sorry would you care to back this up? this is the kind of bull statement that is thrown out there to justify saving the masses from their stupidity.

Last I checked people are not required to have a working understanding of science. Although it is quite embarassing, the choice to educate ones self falls squarely on the individual.

Now you can put it out there but that doesn't mean that people have to accept it. And frankly even if it IS true, that 50% of the American public believes that man coexisted with dinosaurs (and you want to prove that by showing me that they asked the entire country in a totally non agenda driven poll and maybe I'll consider it) so what? Why is that so grating to members of the science community?

Many people are totally ignorant when it comes to science and no one bats an eyelash. So why is this any different?

What's the big deal? The big deal is that its tied up in thinking we've "Got the answer" which is no different than people theorizing in the time of Moses that mighty YHWH created everything.

Its all about EGO and wanting to have the answer.

Using words like "Scary" and "Must be Stopped" and "We have to fight them" well DAMN if that doesn't sound like a new religion to me I don't know what does.


And Lilly I agree with your post. Except how do we keep that line clear when Science itself keeps bringing RELIGION into the discussion.

This is what my other point was in a nutshell. Science needs to keep its head OUT of religion and stay focused on SCIENCE.

Because right now the evolution agenda of STOPPING creationists is turning into a zealot movement.


For the millionth time. I don't believe in Creationism The Silver Thong, you can quote me by way of reply but you seem to suggest that I support Creationism. I do not.

I want science to go back in the lab and worry about SCIENCE and the SCIENTIFIC METHOD and stop concerning itself with Creationism.

If science DOES its job it becomes a non issue.

Um Science Agenda and Evolutionist Agenda are two different things. And you will notice that very rarely in other fields of science is there any kind of issue like this whatsoever.

You see many people for example think Gravity and Centrifugal force are the same thing. Did you know that. But you don't see science busting a kidney over it the way they are SOOOOOOO concerned about the mis education of the public when it comes to evolution.

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" I don't believe in Creationism The Silver Thong, you can quote me by way of reply but you seem to suggest that I support Creationism. I do not"

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I do apologize Truethat, I have read many of your posts and thought it was a bit out of character for you. I will make a mental note and pin it to my brain. As far as the quoting thing I'm a bit daft, and still can't figure out how to quote a sentence out of a post, just the whole post how embarrassing

Edit:spelling of course

This thread brings up a great point about censorship and how much influence religion has on it. I live outside of Buffalo, NY not far from here is an amusement park that holds concerts. Many of the larger events play there and it's a popular place for shows. Well, a few years back (I can't remember the exact year), Ozzfest was coming around with Marilyn Manson on the bill. Well, as soon as it was announced that he would be one of the guests, threats were sent to the amusement park by the Christian group that puts on the yearly "Kingdom Come" festival (a large Christian festival that has music and events...I don't know if it's only a buffalo thing or if it tours). Well, the group said they would pull out of holding it at that amusement park if they didn't ban Marilyn Manson from playing. Well, guess what? Ozzfest got a notice that said that the musical group "Marilyn Manson" could perform only if the singer, Marilyn Manson, was not present. I couldn't believe it when I heard. So, that amusement park buckled under threats by a religious group. I mean, what does a person singing on stage have to do with a religion. I was so appalled that I didn't go to a concert there again until the amusement park was sold and put under different management, that now allows more liberal acts. I honostly think it's wrong when any group tries to force censorship because it offends their views. Especially in America where we are supposed to have freedom of speech. It's not like Marilyn Manson sacrifices babies on stage, he just sings. That's all. Words.

Its not grating to the scientific community, It is grating to people on a personal level.

I cannot speak for everyone else, but I can tell you why it personally grates me. Because stupid people do stupid things, and groups of stupid people do collectively stupid things. You get a group of stupid people together with 1 or 2 smart people controlling them and your a hop, skip and jump away from a crusade, witch hunt, slavery, eugenics etc.




Actually, I dont think it is. That is your opinion and you are free to express your opinion in my thread (unlike some others). I would rather see people not ignorant of science, not just because "I want the correct answers". Everyday, we are faced with decisions, these decisions are based upon our understand of the world around us. We also decide laws and policy makers on how they represent us, ultimately science falls in there somewhere.

Things like voting for policy makers that will make laws that effect us all. I would rather people make informed decisions.




There is nothing wrong with individual scientists being politically or socially aware of the world and its happenings. You claim to be a graduate student true, yet you act as if you have never been involved in academia before. Most scientists in the world pay little attention to the comings and goings of the world except in their area of research. I think it is great individual scientists step-up and call the BS that floats through our mush brained politicians and media.


Science does, I have yet to ever read a hard science journal on religion. Of course not all scientists do.





Yeah? I want creationists to stop trying to force their pseudoscientific religious views into my kids schools. The world isn't perfect, stop being naive. Saying "science" does something is as silly as saying "christians" do something. There is no collective, only individuals.

On a side note, please do no destroy this thread with your rancor.

Your "I know science and I know academia" meter just hit .

All science has an agenda, that agenda is to study the unknown (in said field) and to share your findings with your peers. Saying no fields of science have any agenda is pretty naive. The only problem is, you don't seem aware of the actual agenda.

Edit: Probably to a great extent the agenda of applicable technologies as well, would not want to forget that one.

I'm afraid my rose coloured glasses are off when it comes to science.

Scientists created nuclear weapons, science works on helping make biological weapons which is one of the scariest things to encounter. Science is controlled by the dollar. Science is working against us in many, many ways.

and who gets to use them?
trigger happy rapture/end time believing pro jesus american presidents?

have a look at the big picture thats being discussed here sparky.

How so? Could you imagine how chaotic our lives would be if we ever lost science. Also, in some ways, isn't religion also controlled by the dollar?

I am not religious, in fact, I dislike religion in general. Religion, science, whatever, all dollar controlled.

Sure science has been beneficial but at the same time it works in ways that are not so beneficial to mankind.

How so?
"The ethical problems arising from scientific progress are not, of course, limited to weapons and war. Society is just beginning to grapple with an increasing number of environmental and health issues that science has produced. High profile cases include bovine spongiform encephalopathy in the United Kingdom and the AIDS contaminated blood scandal in France. Genetic engineering in the human context will be a major issue in the next decades.

Though the detailed problems in these cases differ in important respects they have one fundamental thing in common: a loss of trust by the public."
from: http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/319/7207/448

Science also makes cures for diseases which have plagued mankind for millennium and don't forget your computer. Science works with evidence and facts. Religion works with faith. Faith is a guess at what you think is going on which can't be proved with evidence and facts. Money controls everything; religion, government, science, and environment.

Back on topic, I'm more disturbed by the Governments censorship than any religious censorship.

Really?


Then what is the point of this thread? If its just a few individuals then why does it bother you? Aren't they doing just the same thing as you are "expressing their opinion at not wanting shoved down their children's throats."

I mean please show me where Creationism is taught in a public school? Because I can show you where evolution is?

And seeing as how evolution is shifted up and changed nearly every day I can understand why a Creationist would take offense at this being shoved down their child's throat.


You constantly question the fact that I am in grad school btw which is an ad hominem attack. You accuse me of having "rancor" when you single handedly came into my thread about skepticism and spent the entire time thrashing Iamsson with rude and personal attacks and now you are laying down the law about conduct?

I have done nothing rancorous in this thread except to be firm in my opinion. For someone who supports Dawkin's right to speak you sure do have a wimpy reaction to my posts.

So shall we keep it on topic for a change camlax instead of your typical slow decent into personal attack which blows up into full on sarcasm?


OT you say that it bothers the individual. It bothers me too. But if it bothers you that people are so stupid when it comes to science then why isn't SCIENCE and the way people are taught stepped up to a better level.

This is why I am skeptical about evolution being taught in school in the first place. Because there are so many other things that are so important for students to get a handle on in school that evolution could be lightly touched on and then moved on from and the students could be taught very important and completely relevant things.

This mad focus on evo suggests that there is an agenda going on and it is TO THIS that I think the Creationists are responding.

You don't see Creationists going crazy about other sciences. They are not anti science. They are anti evo agenda.

And as far as the You Tube thing I've seen plenty of things removed off of Youtube because of copy right violation.

Nearly every time I go to Youtube, (and those of you who follow my posts know I go there a lot) I find at least ONE song or clip has been removed.

So I don't know what the big deal is. They aren't oppressing the information by removing a youtube clip.

This is very true. My rose colored glasses about Science came right off when I found out in 1991 they actually had a cure for AIDS (not full cure but medication to prevent it from going from HIV to full blown AIDS) but because two of the University Hospitals working on it didn't want to give up the patten rights and the cash cow that came with it, it was held back.

This is done a lot in science. Its all about the money.

Its not ONE or the OTHER see this is a very very good post because it clearly illustrates the blind spot that people have when talking about Science.

Religion and Science are not opposites. You don't see people talking about how Math and Religion are opposites do you?

You don't see people suggesting that its either ONE or the other and making comments how if you criticize science that automatically means you think Religion is better?

Do you see that? It happens all the time and it drives me and many other "thinkers" I know crazy.

When did Religion become the alternative to Science? If science screws up its its OWN fault. Religion has nothing to do with it.

And we aren't talking really about Science in general. We're talking about the way anyone who criticizes Science is assumed to be in support of religion.

We are all suckers had to put the same kind of disclaimer on the post that I did a few minutes before with The Silver Thong.

Why can't people see that there is this brainwash going down that equates anyone who challenges science to a Creationist Christian Fundy.

Its quite bizarre.

I know this is a lot like the skepticism thread earlier but again this is where I think you don't quite see how powerful the creationist agenda is in this country. For one, evolution is the basis for which we understand all biology and must be taught in school. You cannot teach any biology based course, beyond elementary school, without a firm grounding in genetics and evolution. There is no EVO agenda! It's basic biology. There was no problem until the most recent rise in fundementalist christianity. Creationists are spending millions of dollars a year to force religion into science classes. They don't care about physics because they don't see it as a threat. Geology would be next though. There is only a creationist agenda. The only reason evolution comes up so much is because of this agenda and scientists responding to the constant baseless attacks of the science over the last 20 years. I know you don't gree with this but it's true: if this was ignored creationism would gain a foothold in schools. Then what's next geology, because it says the earth is so old? Then what? Astrophysics because it says the universe is so old? There is the basic integrity of science over myth at stake here.

I agree with this. But this is where you don't see the evo agenda being pushed. Have you seen how its done?

To me there's a big difference in teaching the results to the kids and trying to take it backwards.


Ex. My sis was a teacher at a "field trip" science lab in the inner harbor.

So here comes a family trip with a bunch of children. So my sister takes the kids and sits them in a circle and decides to teach them about evolution.

So of all the things that she could have taught them what do you think she says? She says "What to people and monkeys have in common? If you look at a monkey what do you see that is the same in people" and her point was the hand, but the kids sat there and said "Nothing" and she got annoyed that they didn't see it.

But why not start out smaller? If its just the basic information getting put out there in all innocence then why is it presented the way it is?

Its not taught properly and cleanly. Its clearly taught with an agenda in mind. I have three kids in the public school system here. And its definitely taught as being pushed on the kids. And if the children question it they are treated like idiots.

Its not handled right because emotions have clouded the issue.

To say the ONLY reason the agenda comes up is because of the creationists is besides the point. You are blaming religion for the actions of the scientists.

So WHAT if the Creationists started it? I mean is this what you teach kids in school, that if someone starts a fight you are off the hook and can use whatever means necessary to WIN.

I've met a few evolutionists who are not threatened by Creationists and it is quite refreshing to see. They are calm and unaffected by the Creationist agenda because they are certain of their science and that is all they are concerned about.

Science is turning this into a competition to be right.

No, science is defending it's conclusions when they are attacked in a public forum by uninformed assailants who use misinformation and outright lies to try and force your kids to be taught religion instead of science. I don't understand how you don't see this as a big deal. You have conservative presidential candidates saying they don't "believe" in evolution. Science isn't something you "believe" in. Evidence supports it or it doesn't. There is a horrifying precedent being set in this country by a huge faction of this country who want the dark ages back.

There is nothing wrong with individual scientists being politically or socially aware of the world and its happenings. You claim to be a graduate student true, yet you act as if you have never been involved in academia before. Most scientists in the world pay little attention to the comings and goings of the world except in their area of research. I think it is great individual scientists step-up and call the BS that floats through our mush brained politicians and media.


On a slightly lighter note, it isn't just scientists who are like this. It's most academics.

Also, (for what it's worth) truethat strikes me as a real grad. student, and a good one, asking fundamental questions about the world and how it works.

--Jaylemurph

Gee... and I thought science led to the theory of evolution, not the reverse. Now the truth comes out.

As to the OP, are you sure the video in question didn't violate copyright laws? Is it wrong to enforce copyright laws? Is the RIAA censoring when they pursue prosecutions on file-sharing?

I don't know the case, but Youtube doesn't just remove a vid b/c someone complains....

JS

Try and force your kids to be taught religion? I don't see this as a big deal because its never going to happen A> And B SO WHAT?


This is what I'm talking about. This mad frenzy of "Oh my GOOOOOOD they are going to teach the children the creationist theory WAAAAAAAAAA!!!! RUN RUN!!!"


SO what? You can be taught something objectively in a classroom? Why this big mad frenzy panic of the idea? If someone taught me about Islam in school I would be interested. I wouldn't automatically convert and be brainwashed.

I think the biggest part of this whole problem is that most Scientists REALLY underestimate the intelligence of the average person. I think its interesting to watch all the rude and nasty comments that have constantly poured out of camlax for example. This holier than thou stuff.

Its funny because most people I know are pretty intelligent and not blind sheep.


I think they can handle it. LOL


Hey thank you Jayle!!!!