I have been interested in the Mahabharata story for a long time. It could be viewed as a purely fictional epic poem written for entertainment purposes only, or, for us more imaginative types, it can be seen as ancient people trying to explain things too technologically advanced for the civilization of the people at the time.

Here is a video that spends a few minutes talking about the Mahabharata. Video

What do you guys think?

I've never heard of the Mahabharata before, but the video is interesting. The story resembles alot of other ancient ufo sightings, like the ufo drawings in Egypt etc.

The storyline and description in this epic poem explain flying vehicles, great firey weapons that shake the earth and tear apart cities. If someone were to make the story into a movie, they would have to use extremely advanced vehicles and weapons as props, even though the story was written in 500 BC. (Michael Bay are you reading this?)


I wanted to add a little bit to this post, cause the video doesn't really explain fully what is said about Vimanas in the Mahabharata. Doing a google search will bring up thousands of pages of information on it, but this LINK is a good place to start. Please do not let the name Erich von Daniken throw you off, the author of the linked article does not credit von Daniken with anything besides writing a book.

I know how you U-M members are when you see that name... (So am I)

The word Vimana means temple roof in Sanskrit.

It does not mean "vehicle."

The Mahabharata can be found at Sacred-Texts.com.

The site linked by SunDogDayze includes a description of a passage in the Mahabharata which does not in reality appear in the Mahabharata. The one about crockery breaking and birds turning white, etc.

Anyone that wants to comment on this Vedic work should at the very least investigate what it actually says, rather than taking some "alternate historian's" (translation - money-grubbing lying conman's) word for it.

It's an extremely long book. I don't suggest the entire thing must be read. But at least some of it should be searched for pertinant phrases, would anyone agree?

Harte

'SunDogDayze'
I have been interested in the Mahabharata story for a long time. It could be viewed as a purely fictional epic poem written for entertainment purposes only, or, for us more imaginative types, it can be seen as ancient people trying to explain things too technologically advanced for the civilization of the people at the time. Here is a video that spends a few minutes talking about the Mahabharata. Video
What do you guys think?

Thank you for posting this. Fascinating interpretation. Never would have read it that way. All things are possible.

The Mahabaratha is not regarded as entertainment by the Hindus but variously as history, religious revelation and teaching, and a guide to understanding human beings. It has just about every possible stereotypical form of human behaviour from the most wicked and cunning to the most virtuous, shows what good and bad behaviour is and how duty must be carried out. The essence of the Mahabaratha is the profound dialogue between Arjuna and Krishna, known as the Bhagavad Geetha. This distillation of Hindu philisophy teaches (and I am being far too simplistic here from my own inability to understand its whole) how a man cannot be destroyed because he is eternal spirit, and what Karma and reincarnation are all about.

Harte-

I knew you would have something to say about my post. Keep in mind I didn't say that I was an expert in the Mahabharata. I did research, I did compare texts, and although I didn't learn Sanskrit so that I could read it in it's original form, I am able to discern what is and isn't found in the Mahabharata. I guess it depends on which website or resource you use, since translation makes different outcomes. However, just so you know, Vimana has several definitions.



I didn't make any outrageous claim, I just said it is interesting. An epic story (most likely the second largest of it's kind) that started as legends, then was written down so long ago, to have so many references to things that could be interpreted into modern technology. That is all. I respect it as a very important part of Indian history, and the view I have on it is the same as I do about the Bible and other works of history. There may or may not be truth to any of it, but it is interesting how imaginative the authors were if it is all fiction.

The purpose of these posts is to present a topic and then have a constructive conversation about it. Getting into every technicality to try and prove someone wrong, and being condescending, especially when you are incorrect, goes against the purpose of even having a membership here, would anyone agree?

This is true, but at the same time, it's not a blanket excuse to push forth non-sense. It's a trick pressed onto us frequently by pseudo-historians. Zacariah Sitchin* does this all the time. Just because a word (say the verb agere in Latin) has different ways of being expressed in English, like "to spend", "to do", "to pass", doesn't mean you can foist any meaning on it, like "to make specific boingie noise".

To suggest that vimana means "flying car" instead of "temple roof" means contradicting a hefty body of scholarship in literature, history, anthropology and archeology -- which is fine if you have something tangible to back up your claim. The fact that you /didn't/ learn the base language and didn't do your own translation of the text means that you can't really be the individual to use the "translation is a tricky thing" card.

And before you ask -- yes, I have done translation work on several occasions.

--Jaylemurph

*Sitchin's favourite practice is to claim the word for "name" really means "rocketship". No other scholar on the planet sees the need to do this, and it often renders whole sentences incomprehensible.

Harte,
The word 'Vimana' does indeed mean an areial vehicle. I know. I have studied sanskrit in school. My Mother Tounge, is rooted in Sanskrit. Viman in normal hindi does mean an aero craft.
the site which SunDogdayze has meioned about the effect of a Nuclear explosion and even the one metioning Ghurka and his flying chariot is all hogwash. I ve got the entire Mahabharatha in my Laptop, I had searched many times for these sections/incidents and got zilch.

Harte, if you dont want to discuss about it, Dont. But dont stop others from speculating or discussing. If you will do so, it will be sort of Obnoxious.

SunDog, rather than refer to these creepy crazy sites that tell all sorts of stories, why dont you refer to the original material which is freely available for download in .txt format in many sites.

Hunh. I did not know that.

Can you tell us more about the word? How is it formed? Is it a verbal noun like "flying thing" or a noun that comes out of a verbal form like "flier"?
Does it have other possible meanings, or just the one?
What kind of air transportation does it mean -- is it a general term like "aircraft" or does it refer to a specific kind of craft, like helicopter or glider?

--Jaylemurph

Coredrill,

I provided information for SunDogDayze so that he may actually read the Mahabharata, exactly as you have done here.

Sorry about the Vimana thing if I'm wrong - I got the info from an Anthropologist I happen to be acquainted with.

FYI, on my home computer I have links to the portions of the Mahabharata that appear to have been combined into the often-quoted (but absent from the actual text) part that describes the great iron missile of fire or whatever David Hatcher Childress keeps claiming.

The various parts (as I recall, it's three different parts) that are combined read vaguely similar to the erroneous quote, only far less dramatic and a whole lot less like the "ancient nuclear war" that this thread is obviously leading to.



I believe I've posted my reasons for disputing claims like this several times here at U-M. It's not to make someone look dumb. It's not to make myself look brilliant. It is to provide information to people looking into these things on the internet.

When I was first using Google to try and get both sides of these types of stories, it was nearly impossible to find anything except the most outrageous claims. Very often during my various searches, threads at this website, and various other, similar websites, came up. So, I decided to join sites like these so that in the future, people who want to know will have less searching to do to get both sides.

That is, I swear, the last time I will repeat this rationale. In the future, if you choose to ignore my reasoning for my own posts, I don't care.

I would rather be thought obnoxious and tell the truth than to sit quietly and let ignorant people control every bit of the dialogue on a subject they obviously know nothing about.

The Mahabharata, as you clearly stated, does not describe any nuclear war. The appearance in an ancient story of a flying vehicle is not surprising and is indicative of nothing at all.

Try to think of any major group of ancient peoples that didn't have some cultural mythos involving flying beings and flying vehicles.

Harte

Okay, this is not the kind of post I meant to start. I don't want to argue with anyone, cause I do not know enough about the subject to have anything real substantial. I want to know more.

Harte and Jaylemurph-

I understand that you have a right to point out the flaws in theories. I want to say again that I did not say that I believe the claims made by anyone. I thought it was interesting, and the whole thing about me not being able to use the translation card, well I think it still makes sense, as I do not have any other way to read the Mahabharata except for whatever translation I can find on the internet. As you know, it is a loooong text, and I have read some of it, but not enough to be at a point where I feel I can disprove a theory. I will be reading more, and I may even come to find out that you are completely correct, but I still think it is a very interesting concept.

By the way I am not a him.

Anyhow, since we have gotten past the mandatory first posts, what else do you guys think about the Mahabharata? Was it written as a code of conduct then, or as a story for pure entertainment? I am not about to rule anything out.

But you have to admit, seriously, that if we were to see some of the stories played out, it would look like scenes from Star Wars or something...am I wrong?

Also, I agree about Sitchin and I have read some of his (for lack of a better word) crap. Same with von Daniken. I am not gullible and hopeful enough to believe in something like that to ignore a lack of logic.

It probably seems that way to you /because/ you've seen Star Wars. I imagine what the original writers envisioned would be quite different.

--Jaylemurph

SunDogDayze

Okay, this is not the kind of post I meant to start. I don't want to argue with anyone, cause I do not know enough about the subject to have anything real substantial. I want to know more.



Quick note: Feel free to ask anything you wish, any time. If people respond great, otherwise they do not care to or will not make the time. We are fortunate when people take the time to teach, turn on and help others along. But they are not obliged to help.


People who put you down may think that this forum can really go places but Level 1 questions hang people up. They are wrong. There is always place for those at the first level who are seeking knowledge. But nothing guarantees that you will be fortunate each time to find knowledgeable people willing to share. Does not mean they are mean or snotty, even gifted music teachers find it a pain to teach grade 1 classes.

Your question is very interesting. It is always worth looking at a new angle, whether or not it proves to be right or wrong or uncertain is yet to be seen.

Sundogdayze,

If you read my rationale for being here in the first place, you now understand that I did not post to try to show you up, nor to try to act like I know everything.

I'm on my planning period at school right now. I usually post during this time because I have issues at home that usually prevent me from spending much time there on the computer.

My links are all on my home computer. Otherwise, I would have included links for future reference to be used by people searching for information on this subject.

If you use the search function here and look at some of my posts, you'll see what I mean and you'll see my usual mode of operations - provide the "orthodox" view, along with whatever evidence I can find to back it up.

Here at work, I can't provide the links so I may come off as a little more haughty than I actually am (and that's pretty darn haughty to begin with!)

Anyway, I wish you to understand that I realize the depth of this particular subject and that no one person could possibly know everything there is to know on the subject.

That, by the way, is what makes this subject so tempting for pseudoscientists to exploit. Nobody knows enough about it to dispute it with any real rigor, and if you take the time to look into it, you can very quickly get bogged down in the massive amounts of information and eventually become lost.

Not to mention there's so much out there that you could spend the rest of your life looking at the Hindu mythology and still not get all of it.

You might be interested in another thread here that I posted a lot of info in. It's an old thread though, so if you want to post in it you might be considered a "necroposter." It's sometimes frowned on around here to post in an old thread. But you might be able to use some of the info available in that thread.
Of course, I'm sure you won't mind if I link you directly to one of the most informative, and best-written, posts in the thread!

Click Here.




Sorry for the gender mixup. Truth is, I actually like girls better, so good on you!


My opinion is that it was not written as anything. It evolved into what it is today.

Much is known about the Mahabharata and it's origins. There is an extremely informative article at Wikipedia on this subject. Many people don't like Wiki, but I appreciate the links that are provided at the bottom of the entries there.


Why, then you and I are kindred spirits, and I welcome you to this board with open and grateful arms!

Harte

Mahabharata, means the great war, also called BharathaYudha or the Chronicle Of the Valiants Of The Bharata, was my all time favorite literature. In one of the passage, the writer, Vyasa, wrote "If it's not in this story, it doens't belong anywhere".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata

If we're to talk about the advanced thecnology being used there, I will talk about some of the weapons featured on the story that resembled today's warfare technology.

In the story, Arjuna has 3 or the most powerful arrow in the history ever (I think it even stronger than the LOTR Elves' Silverthorn), they are:

1. Nagapala (the dragonhead arrow)
2. Arjadhadhali (the birdhead arrow)
3. Pasopatti (Supposed to be the fang of a giant, RPG-like effect if shot)
4. And the most intriguing one, one of his arrow can multiply into thousands, thus allowing him to either rain opponents with arrows, or shot consecutively in a rapid succession like a machine gun.

there's also another weapon, the chakra kundalini of Khrisna, Arjuna's cart driver whose supposed to be the incarnation of Vhisnu. His weapon is the strongest of all, that he hesitated to use it, apparently it has nuclear-like effect.

I'll add some more, I'll re-read the book and I'll put some more. Glad some people talk about this great literature work!

Okay look. The comment I made about Star Wars scenes was OBVIOUSLY an attempt to lighten this thread up. It can not be used to assume that I 'skip' the harder parts of life. That's pretentious and personal and uncalled for.

Now, as far as the Mahabharata goes, yes I have read some of it. I have used the sacred-texts.com version. In this one, the vimanas are just refered to as cars. The translation for that version was made by a man named Kisari Mohan Ganguli during the 1890s. Even then, the English language was drastically different from the colloquial language we use today. This is also a time when there were no flying vehicles in real life to compare to the ones described in the sanskrit epic. There are many more translations that continue to use the word vimana instead of being translated into cars. Most people assume that in the Ganguli translations, the cars refer to chariots.

Even in the Ganguli translation, there are portions which talk about the weapons that the heroes used. In the Karma Parva, section 9, it states:


A brahmastra is defined as

There are other sanskrit-english translations of the word that describe the brahmastra as a weapon used to destroy worlds, usable only once in a lifetime, able to scorch the earth, catastrophic. Some people can correlate that to the description of weapons of modern day, such as atomic or other nuclear weapons.

Now, that is only a tiny portion of a huge text, which is just one of many Ancient Indian texts (including the Ramayana and several others) which describe these weapons, as well as flying vehicles and battles fought in the sky. This same theme, of flying men and gods coming down form the heavens, some using weapons far more advanced than humans is found in thousands of ancient historical documents, from the Bible, to the Torah, to the writings of Plato to heiroglyphic stories depicted on stone, to the oldest Sumerian texts found so far. I know it is a common theme. Why? Did all the authors involved in recording these stories, from all different eras and different parts of the world purely imagine such similar events? It seems to be illogical.

Even with only the story of the Mahabharata as evidence, one could reasonably come to the conclusion that there is a possibility that the epic is being narrated by a primitive man describing things too technologically evolved for him to describe completely. It can not be said that without a doubt, there has never been a highly advanced civilization, whether humans or extraterrestrial, that met or exceeded our technological capacity before us.

Then, there are other forms of evidence as well, to support the claim that there may have been extraordinary weapons and machines way before our time. In India, there have been a few cities unearthed (Mohenjo Daro and Harappa) that contain high levels of radioactive ash. The cities were huge civilization centers, and were abandoned for reasons unknown. In desert areas, there are sheets of natural greenish glass, 90% silica, extremely pure, that are the size of small towns, that were unexplainable until the first atomic bomb testing in the desert regions of the U.S. showed what happened when a bomb was detonated over sand. The sand was melted into extremely pure greenish glass. Please feel free to google it yourself, or follow one of these links to see:

Link to Nuclear Events in Ancient India

Link to Ancient Nuclear Blasts

Link to Ancient Atomic Warfare

Another link

and another one...

I would love to hear what other explanations there could be that allows for the story of the Mahabharata (and other Indian texts) and the evidence found at these locations.

Harte,

I just discovered your last post after I had already submitted mine. I am going back now to the link you provided, so please understand that I had not already seen the other thread when I posted before.

Off to read!

SDD,

I could tell you hadn't read it since you appear to have bought into the complete lie of Mohendaro and the radioactive skeletons.

The "green glass" (Libyan Desert Glass) has been explained, by the way. They found the badly weathered impact crater last year.

Some friendly advice - if David Hatcher Childress claims it's true, then you can rest assured it's a huge pile of crap.

Harte

This is one of the best-http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/maha/index.htm

Harte-

Touche...after reading your post, I did a few different searches. I googled things like "Mohenjo Daro" without the words nuclear or ancient in the query and came up with just as many pages filled with information that had no explanation pointing towards ancient nuclear explosions. It seems to be just as likely that it was meteor impacts.

As far as the high radioactivity levels supposedly found in these areas, I still might not be able to understand fully whether it's believable without some kind of higher education in the field, cause i know nothing about the subject.

I agree that a lot of the information that I thought was more current than it was turned out to be highly questionable. I never said I KNEW any of these things to be true, I was just presenting the information I had. Unfortunately, I didn't think to search these forums, and apparently, someone (several someones) had already beat me to the 'breaking news' story about the Mahabharata and the entire theory.

Sorry I started a thread about something that has been kicked like a really dead horse. I swear I have been reading these forums for quite a while now, and I didn't recall seeing anything posted on this subject, at least recently.

Anyhow, everyone, thanks for the information. I still can't call myself a total skeptic, but as far as this subject goes, unless something more develops, I can't quite believe this theory either. On to the next unsolved mystery...

So, uh, anyone actually thinks that the Brahmastra is a nuclear weapon?

SunDog,

Not your fault.

These con men know how to take advantage of certain areas about which the average person knows absolutely nothing.

Believe me, it took a lot of work on my part before I could come up with the links and the info I provided in that thread.

Two years ago I started to write an article at another site on the general subject of Ancient Astronauts in India. I had to give it up because I could see it would take me years to look into every little nook and cranny of every silly tale out there on the internet.

However, I was able to track down enough info on the Mohendaro fable to pretty much dismiss it outright.

Maybe now you can see why I try to jump right on several of the claims made here concerning (at least) areas that I have previously investigated. It makes it easier for future researchers to find info on the "conventional" side of the story.

Harte

Mahabarata is one of my most beloved literature work ever. It's complexity and it's action stands up to its drama and moral teachings. Aside the ancient technology, it is still a good book to read. My book is the one translated into english by P. Lal.

It is a great work of literature, regardless of the question about its validity as a historical document. I am continuing to read it, although, I am having trouble keeping up with all the different names.

What do you mean about historical documentation? What I understand is that Mahabarata is a work of fiction, though maybe not wholly fictitious, it may contain some real life character, just like Vyasa himself that was featured on the early part of the story. But for me, they're pretty much ficticious.

Chariot in Sanskrit/Hindi or any Sanskrit based language is 'Rath' or 'Ratha'.
Vimana is of course a aero craft. there is mention of the pushpak vimana that ravana of the asuras use to kidnap Sita, wife of Rama in Ramayana.

Mahabharatha is not considered fiction by Hindus. The length, detail, and logical explanations in thousands of interwoven stories of Mahabharatha are almost unsurpassed by any other book.

I just thought I would add this little tidbit that I came across today on Digg.com.

I thought it was interesting that it showed up on that website, seeing as how it is a user picked news site. Enjoy!

Clicky here!

And, I also thought that the Mahabharata was supposed to be a historical account of some sort, kind of like the Bible for Christians. Correct me if I am wrong.

crystal links is a david childress website. not that credible!

Yeah I know lol. I thought it was strange that it showed up on Digg.com though. I didn't think most people even knew what a vimana was.


Who the crap is this Childress guy? I mean, I have been warned about him, but who is he?

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/india/n...ient_Patliputra




http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar...ajnamavali.html

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=152200

I echo Bone_collector. i am born and brought up in india. when i was growing up most of the children grew up with stories of Ramayan and Mahabaratha in every day life. i was fascinated with them when i was a child and it never really went away. Hindus in general do not believe the stories as fictious. Mahabaratha is called 'Panchama vedam' because it encompasses knowledge from all the four vedas in a way which can be understood by massess. It might be very hard to understand if one thinks thinking in a chronological fashion of the story. we heard these stories even before they made any sense and grew up with them so it helped us a lot to enjoy them. hindus think these stories really happened and most of them believe with out doubt the 'neethi' (truthfulness or knowledge) they should learn from them. unlike 'Ramayan' which gives out its wisdom as good vs evil(Black and White), Mahabaratha speaks of wider area between good vs evil (Black and White and grey in between) giving the opportunity to people as similies in day to day life. Even today people talk about the characters as their next door neighbors. This is a fantastic work and people will enjoy and will be fascinated by the twists and turns. This is a brilliant work and is written by 'Veda Vyasa' who is considered an avatar of vishnu and is called 'Bhagavan vedavyaso mahanrishi'(god himself came as vedavyasa). Mahabaratha has 2 wonderful works which even today people hear regularly and start thier days with called 'Vishnusahastranamam' (thousand names of god vishnu) and 'Bhagavad Gita'. I read 'Bhagavad Gita' everyday when my life was in a bad shape and i had nowhere else to turn. This book helped me to understand myself and also put my problems in a perspective. I hope the OP will read it and enjoy 'Mahabaratha' as millions of indians and find what ever they are hoping.

Has there been any more info on Adam's Bridge????


http://www.lankalibrary.com/geo/ancient/nasa.htm




http://faithcommons.org/proposed_destructi...ed_hornets_nest

In Javanese leather puppet, the scene from Ramayana where Sitha (here we called her "Sintha") was abducted by Rahvana, she was carried away in Rahvana's Vimana, which is depicted as a disc-shaped (almost like a chakra or mandala) vehicle. I'll post a picture if I can find one.

So it continues...

I have been reading the text since I started this thread, and in my opinion, it is a great work of literature, not only for entertainment value, but also for values that can be learned. It does not have to necessarily be true, or even have roots in true events.

I could also use the same description for the Christian bible. And there are millions of people in the U.S. alone that believe that every event in the bible happened exactly as it was written, so it isn't hard to imagine millions of people in India believing the same about the Mahabharata. I understand what an important work it is.

Comparing the Mahabharata with the Bible, we know that many of the people and stories and places found in the Bible were in fact real, is this the case with the Mahabharata? I have tried to look up what may have been real events, and followed some of crystal sage's links, but maybe because I am not that familiar with India's history, I can't seem to identify correctly. Can someone help?

http://www.divinelifesociety.org/graphics/..._teachings.html
this is interesting... the Lord of 3 Worlds.... Like Jesus' 'Holy Trinity'... Feeding the Masses.... etc...


Just like the Bible.....!!!

Good article .... by the way!!!!

<a href="http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=93290" target="_blank">http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=93290</a>



more from that thread....


http://www.yurchey.com/

I dont know, Crystal Sage. I read up a little bit on the 'Alberta Indian' (the native American profile your site listed as the 13th point in the Atlantis map.) and so far, geologists have claimed it to be natural erosion, and a coincidence.

I also was pretty intrigued by the 'Sphinx' carving in the Sayan mountains, but upon further digging, the only reference to that carving is by the author of that site. I would think that if there was a Sphinx on top of a mountain in Russia, we would know more about it.

Unfortunately, I think that site you linked was really interesting, and would make great fiction work, but the author sees connections where rational men wouldn't, and stretches the truth a tad bit too much for me to fathom. Nice find, though.

source - wikipedia.org

CS..please..that yurechy guy is a complete nut!
I will post a side view of the same indian head from a lower elevation to prove that the indian head is just a mesa eroded by wind and water...i ve seen the low elevation view in google earth....

good god! guys like yurechy should be sent to thre asylums!!

Yes, as per my understanding it is with Mahabharatha too. The main city 'Hastinapura' is nothing but present day India Capital city 'Delhi'. The great war between the brother's children (Kauravas and Pandavas) happened in a place called 'Kurukshetra' in Punjab. Lord Krishna is from Gujarat and he grew up in part in a city called 'Mathura' and 'Brindavan'. In every state of India it is understood there is a relation with Mahabharatha war. But unlike how tons of christians who are trying to prove that Bible really happened, it has become a fad in india to disprove everything which was all too important to hindus. There are tons of folks who are working very hard to prove that 'Ramayan' and 'Mahabharatha' never happened. I feel very sad that we are trying to give up our heritage thinking it as of novalue. These stories or histories which helped millions of indians to lead a life of harmony and peace are ridiculed in a big way. i am so glad to read about your open mind and i wish you enjoyment in every page. i was thinking of giving a small synopsis of my understanding of the story but did not know if it would help. let me know if i can be of any help.

There are numerous *Bollywood* films featruring the flying vehicles of the Gods... So there definitely some from the Indian sub continent who interpret the word as meaning that in the texts.

I see no reason for the vimanas to be thought of as anything less than flying vehicles. I believe in a previous thread in regards to them it was said that there was no reason to doubt that they could build hot air balloons? I haven't read the text myself - I think I'll start on the Sacred Text's site version of it tonight, but would that in any way work in context?

Prisha,

I would love to hear your interpretation. That is what I am asking for, people's opinions, and since you are more familiar with the Mahabharatha that anyone else in this thread seems to be, please, let us know what you think!

Coredrill,

Is this the "last word" on this?

Not exactly open-minded, are you?

Harte

i went mad when i read doug yurechy's site..thats why..if yurechy is right, i stand wrong!!

Welcome to my nightmare and/or world!

Harte

This is fascinating to read about, give me more!

I especially liked the reference to the puppet show (I know that's not what they are really called). I have a degree in music so we study non western music and Indonesian puppet shows are an integral part of that. This makes me really want to study those puppet shows for more clues to the real meaning of these words.