After reading this article from http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=theologian I wanted to bring it onto here and see what your guys' responses are. These are pretty philosophical in nature, but I think they are good for discussion. Well here are some of the questions:

If humans need a designer, then why doesn't God?

According to the law of thermodynamics, matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and something cannot come from nothing, so where did God come from?

If God is perfect by definition, and God has no higher power then himself, then what is God's purpose?

How would you feel if you had brought some children into the world knowing that they were going to be tormented eternally in a place you built for them? Could you live with yourself?

Why does God want love when he is perfect, doesn't lack anything?

These are just a few questions from the site, I found the article interesting and would think at least some other people might too.

Rhetoric is best left unanswered, Cloud, but for the fun of it...


Perhaps God was on an episode of Trading Spaces...you know how well those designers do. Maybe "He" just decides to go it on "His" own.


From that place...you know...that place with the things...and the stuff...guess you had to be there.


I choose to think that maybe God's purpose lay not in the "battle" with Sin and Evil, but rather to see what inane programming network TV will create for the new Fall line-up.


I don't know, call Dr. Phil to do an intervention or something...let God sit on the couch and talk it out. Oddly enough, every parent takes that chance when raising a child. Look at the world we live in and tell me no one is tortured by/in it. A moment seems an eternity when accompanied by pain.


"Everybody needs somebody sometime, everybody needs someone it's true..." Maybe God just needs a hug, ever think of that? Give the Man a hug! Geez!


Humor interests me far more than philosophy, as you could probably tell. Look at it this way, if you've accomplished nothing else with this post, you've made me smile. Thanks for that! Take care!

If God is truly God he must be self-sufficient completely, if God must be created he cannot be God. Nothing created can be God because to be created is to rely on the Creator for you existence. If you believe in God, you believe he has no Creator, to say he has one is to say he is not God.


God is everywhere and thus came from nowhere. If you believe in God than he is not created and always was. There never was a "nothing" because God always (is, was, will be <<all three are insufficient in describing his eternity) existed(s, will exist). To apply a word that would assume a time and bind God within it is immediately null and void because God is outside of time. To say that God is, is to not speak because God was and will be as well as being in the moment. God is, was and will be eternal and infinite, he cannot be bound by time. The best thing would be to say God eternal. To say "God..." is to automatically limit God. Trying to understand him in a human and therefore created way is impossible because he is beyond understanding. Trying to understand him in an infinite way is beyond the capacity of the human mind. Ask yourself this "If I believe in God, what does his origin (which doesn't exist) matter?"


God, being eternal, cannot have a purpose because at the same time his purpose is prescribed to him, in that moment it is fulfilled, and will be fulfilled. God having a purpose is an impossibility. To say he has a purpose to fulfill is to say that he hasn't done something that he will soon do in his span of eternity and therefore makes him in-eternal. But God is eternal, and thus has no purpose.


Hell is a disgusting Christian invention. I don't believe in such a concept any longer. God is ever-loving and ever-forgiving. Hell's existence makes God human in character and thus not God, therefore hell cannot exist if he is ever-loving, always merciful, and loves us unconditionally.


Is wanting something lacking it? God wants to express his love. Being that he is the Creator of love, and therefore the prime example of love, he IS love, he has love to express. How to express that love? Create creatures which can receive that love and reflect it back.


These questions are attempts to delve into the mind of God and understand it. That is not possible at the moment. Maybe as we move along the path to enlightenment and Supreme closeness to God it will be revealed to us. However, to ponder that now will only bring you confusion. God, the true God, gave Torah for us to follow, and gave us knowledge that we might love and obey him eternally. When this life, which is merely a nothingness on the spectrum of the eternal lives we will live, expires, we will proceed to navigate towards God, learning and growing until we come to a state where we are almost God (a state which we can't reach). Neither state (neither unity with God, or close to the point of almost being united with God) are reachable in this life, for we are in a limited form. The best we can do is to elevate this human form becoming harmonically balanced and knowledgeable of God.


Sincerely,
The Knight.

You should also add, if god is perfect then why did he create life and existence that was so flawed? At the subatomic, atomic, molecular, cellular......galaxy and universal level?

]

Well of course he does and, on the occasions when I saw him, I would guess that his designer was armani. Seriously, perhaps god is the last in a long line of designed beings. Perhaps he evolved out of the substance, and fabric, and the energy of the universe itself; and his original energy source was within the big bang.
It does not change the important philosophical question which actually relates to the realtionship between us and god, Given that god exists; are we his creations, how did he create us, why did he create us, what does it mean that we are created within his image. Why do we struggle so hard to go against his apparent stated intentions for us?




Even in the theory of evolution, there are complex theories relating to the big bang, and the subsequent translation/ transference of massive amounts of energy and matter. So it is not suprising that neither can we fully comprehend the nature of god. Suffice it to say that he is a "natural" component of the universe. Because he has intelligence, will and the power to do so, he (like us his creations) likes to manipulate energy, matter, time, etc to create; for his entertainment education and elucidation, and the evidence suggests, amusement. Much earlier religionists than the christians were able to see plenty of evidence for the existence of a sense of humour in god.




This pertains to the nature of god, and also relates to both his relationship with the universe and to his interaction with it. Self evidently one of gods purposes is to create. A second stated purpose is to create order out of randomness and chaos. He does this, not just with material things but with societies and people.

When you understand the true nature of the trinity, you can also see that one defined aspect of god is to facilitate communicaton between aspects of the universe, not limited to, but certainly including, sentiences of different types.

My personal opinion is that the "holy spirit" permeates all the universe, through all space and time, creating a huge communicatin network through which the creative aspect of god can travel and communicate. This is why he is not limited to linear time, nor constrained by physical travel. A part of him is always everywhere and everywhen, existing simultaneuously, at a " low energy level", but able to act at a higher energy level to interact physically with the universe, as and when god chooses.




I do not understand this questiion, as it does not pertain to my understanding, either of god, or of his actions. The real scenario is that god brought younger, less wise, and less complete versions of himself into existence. He placed them in a paradise in a context of a universe which existed in complete congruence with god's nature and will.

However, as part of their nature, he created a freedom to choose. Perhaps unfortunately, while this race was young, a great rebellion began in heaven against god's will/rule and the humans were naive enough to believe the rebel leader, who said that they would still live forever, even if they choose to do what they wanted, rather than obey their creator's rules designed for good governance.

Even though sin and mortality spread in the world, god did his best to set up new rules to keep his peole as safe as possible , but they continued to disobey, causing civil chaos. Several times he almost had to eradicate them to get rid of the cancer which was destroying them. Each time they survived, but the cancer regrew.

Finally, god offfered a part of himself in a final bid to redeem the people. All the people had to do was accept the sacrifice of this aspect of god ,ask for forgiveness for past sins, then try once more, as individuals, to follow god's laws, through love of him, and a knowledge that he is trying to save and protect us.

In this scenario he sounds like a great, if long suffering, parent, who in everycase has done everything possible to save his children. Nothing to feel guilty about, although I know that he is saddened and concerned that so many simply refuse to believe, listen or obey.




Ah but isn't love an aspect of perfection.
Or to put it completely differently. It is in our best interests to obey/ work in congruence with gods wishes. As sinners we can only do this, relatively unsuccesfully, through fear. But in accepting gods love and sacrifice, we can do so much more successfully, as an act of love. Thus our love for him, becomes our best form of protection for earthly sins, woes, etc

Finally, while not equal with god, we are one aspect of his creation which is woven most closely to his likeness. We have some of his interaction with the surrounding universe and built into us a capacity for love and communication. Why would god not appreciate this love and communication, even though it was created mostly to benefit us as beings. God is a loving god. While a powerful and"manipulative" entity, god is by definition love. It is a core element of him

I agree with many points made here.

I think what it boils down to, even though many people don't like hearing it, is almost all arguments made in an "anti-theist" nature are in someway or another trying to hold God accountable to human logic, principles, and definitions...which as stated, is simply not possible if you are truly talking about "God."

If God were held accountable for his behavior, ideals and manner of thought and actions within the realms of human laws, he could hardly be what is revered as a conceptual "God." You cannot apply human labels to him...it is we that are labeled by God. As such, there are "rules" if you will, that are of and only for him that we may not be able to investigate at all much less try to comprehend.

But in all fairness I find I personally am still on a very taxing quest of enlightenment in finding God...so it's quite possible I'm talking from my rear. Just my two cents...

You will not get any concrete answers from these questions, just a bunch of mystical nonsense like you are already getting. I asked these very same questions not to long ago in a thread called “Does God have a God?” and got the same answers…God has always been, he was just here; he is everything, and everywhere, if god was created then he wouldn’t be god, bla bla bla. What is funny about this is that christians can accept that some guy (god) with no apparent origins has always been floating around the universe as fact, yet they think the big bang theory is just to incredible to believe.

They say we as humans are not capable of understanding god yet god wants us to understand, accept and follow his word. Unfortunately god has put us in this catch 22 position, were we are suppose to follow an old poorly formatted, vague, and contradictory book, that was written by humans, whom are not capable of understanding god.

Then we are supposed to be able to parse his message (that we can’t understand) out from the rest of the crap in the book, or simply believe in one of thousands of interpretations of bible. Hopefully you will pick the right one and not go to hell, or end up following some religious nut that wants you to drink poison Kool-Aid to be with Jesus, or a charlatan whom takes all your retirement money so he can buy the new mansion that Jesus wants him to have.

We are supposed to do all this without being able to comprehend what it’s all about. And BTW if we screw up we will be punished in hell for an eternity for not understanding what we are not capable of understanding.

This is kind of like me commanding my dog to get a PHD in physics, and then punish him for not being able to do it.

Now what do you want to hear, the sensible answer or the official version?

I can start with the official version by St. Augustin (that strangely enough has not changed despite Christianism splitting in hundreds of cults):

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iv.xvii.html

The sensible answer is: we don't know if there is a god, and therefore If he was created by an overgod. Best we can do is believe, or not.

ED: Typo

These questions "tortured" my psyche since the age of 11. Many a sleepless nights asking exactly these questions while my grandparents and uncle were trying to force feed me christianity. Getting no logical answers made me rebellious. I guess I have the freethinkers gene as do my parents and children.

It's so insane that so many people believe it too. That's what really boggles the brain. I swear it's a form of hypnotism !!!



Love this post. Right on...............

I don't agree with any points made here.



I think what it boils down to, even though many christians don't like hearing it, is almost all arguments made in an "anti-logic" nature are in someway or another trying not to hold God accountable to human logic, principles, and definitions...which as stated, is simply not possible if you are truly talking about "God." Because we are made in GODS IMAGE !! Remember ? Funny that he is all too HUMAN according to the bible.
Jealosy, love,anger,revenge...............sounds pretty human to me dear. Don't you think ???????????


As such, there are "rules" if you will, that are of and only for him that we may not be able to investigate at all much less try to comprehend.
Yep, it's hard to comprehend, let alone accept, eternal torture, murder, mysogony, incest, stonings, talking snakes, talking donkeys, blood sacrifice, male chauvinism...........shall I go on ? Hey but he's god and you are a measly human with no mind or logic. Do not question what you worship.




But in all fairness I find I personally am still on a very taxing quest of enlightenment in finding God.
Yeah maybe you'll find enlightenment in choosing not to worship a cruel, childish god with an ego & insatiable need for blood the size of Noah's ark.

I know with certainty that I am not talking out of my rear .............just my 5 sense (s)

Taxing? Look inside yourself. For therein lies the connection to the Almighty.


The question "Does God have a God?" has an automatically obvious answer to the point where it makes the questioner look stupid. What is God? By definition he is Supreme and Eternal and Totally Self-Sufficient. To say that God has a God is to say that he is not God. To ask the question would be stupid because its like making 2+2=5, it can't be done. God can't have a God because if he does, than he is not God. Anything with a God, cannot be God at the same time.


Not all people who believe in God are Christians. Stop making a fool of yourself with your sweeping generalizations.

I don't think were designed. I think we developed to live on the Earth like any other creature on the planet. Kind of the way the Universe functions.


God came from other Gods. In my faith Gods have families, mothers, fathers, daughters, and sons. Where did they started from, from the evolution of the multi-verse. Then time my be linear having no actual beginning or end.


The Gods learn and grow like us they are just farther the along path than we are. The actually do what they want. They help us by teaching so we may move further along our path.


No I couldn't, that is why I think hell was invented by human who want to control others with fear. We away have a second chance to learn from our stupidity.


The Gods don't need our love. We are children and they want us to become more than what we are now.

Hah, I'm glad you enjoyed it .


Did God create time, or did we? Just wondering, but if God is everywhere then why doesn't everyone know this "god" or see it?


I think you just proved a point right here. Humans can't understand God, so why do people say they know him and understand his ways, but others don't?


Because characteristics of God should be tested if he is who he says he is.


Then why does God exist in the first place?


Ummm, yeah. If I want candy, obviously I am lacking it. If i want a new car, obviously I am lacking it. If I want someone to love me, obviously I am lacking it.


If he has to create creatures in order to express love, he is not God. Because, in doing this it shows he lacks a means of distributing love, and if God is the only eternal thing (ever), then obviously he was by himself at some time, so how can love be given to oneself?


God is all-knowing correct. So he must have known people were going to go to this hell that he built for them. That's what the point of the question is.

I'm a little confused about this response. The blatant application of mockery in this post seems somewhat unnecessary, it is my considered opinion I did my best to just give an opinion without being negative or insulting to what anyone believes. By all means I could be wrong...it's not as if either of us had tone of voice or facial expression to help in our understanding of what the other is saying.

I would like to point out that I never said I believed these things, I was merely trying to share this as my general understanding of what is essential in arguments made by theists to non-theists. Now whether or not I believe it, I was just trying to insinuate that everything in terms of a God-inspired debate is always going to boil down to faith. It is not holding God to principles of his own creation, that's like saying children should hold their parents accountable to the same rules their parents hold for them. Or rather, it's more fair to say it's all the same rules but at different degrees and levels. Even in human existence, the creator does not abide by the same rules and principles in the same manner as the creation. In my opinion it is fashioned this way as a safe means of educating from experience and knowledge, which a creation does not have over its creator. Obviously that's dumbing it down quite a bit to such a universal discussion, but I hope I explained well enough.

I personally do not even hold much stock in the biblical God, I have a much more spiritual way of seeing this. I do not agree with any of these things you use to talk about/describe God, for that is not how I view his/her/its existence nor how I view the relationship I hold within me. But for the sake of not taking the conversation too off topic, it is not for me to just start blurting out my own personal beliefs, but rather share from my own experience and knowledge (even if it is little I have) about said topic so that I'm adding something valid to the conversation...and keeping it simple and respectful for the OP.

In any case, for the record, I do not "worship a cruel, childish god with an ego & insatiable need for blood the size of Noah's ark." We're not even talking about the same God here

Obviously I don't know you very well Ambriel nor your beliefs. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I was trying to reverse the psychology of this rationalising.
I guess you were trying to define it from a christian perspective.
I guess I get upset when people rationalise & defend their cruel god named Jehovah (or Allah for that matter).
Just because he is god according to the bible doesn't make it right. He made me human as he intended and has given me a human rationale. And that's why I can't accept it. He should have made me think "godlike or Jehovah-like".

My sincere apologies Peace

No worries here friend, I just wanted to make sure I clarified myself

Hey KoZ,

Sorry I must have hit a sore spot with you if you had to resort to calling me stupid as well as foolish. Oh well I have come to expect this kind of response from people like you, in fact it was people like you who taught about the real christian religion as a young boy, and I thank you and them for it. I guess for someone who is incapable, or intimidated of asking logical questions about the origins of god this question is stupid. BTW your christian god is not the same as other gods.

I understand your fear about asking hard questions about your god and his agenda, and hope someday you can get over it.

KoZ,

Let me help you understand what philosophy is all about because it's obvious you dont know. Please see the wickapedia defintion below.


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
• Learn more about using Wikipedia for research •
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Philosophy (disambiguation).
The philosopher Socrates about to take poison hemlock as ordered by the court.
The philosopher Socrates about to take poison hemlock as ordered by the court.

Philosophy is the discipline concerned with questions of how one should live (ethics); what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics); what counts as genuine knowledge (epistemology); and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic).[1] [2] The word itself is of Greek origin: φιλοσοφία (philosophía), a compound of φίλος (phílos: friend, or lover) and σοφία (sophía: wisdom).[3][4]

Though no single definition of philosophy is uncontroversial, and the field has historically expanded and changed depending upon what kinds of questions were interesting or relevant in a given era, it is generally agreed that philosophy is a method, rather than a set of claims, propositions, or theories. Its investigations are based upon rational thinking, striving to make no unexamined assumptions and no leaps based on faith or pure analogy. Different philosophers have had varied ideas about the nature of reason, and there is also disagreement about the subject matter of philosophy. Some think that philosophy examines the process of inquiry itself. Others, that there are essentially philosophical propositions which it is the task of philosophy to prove.[5]

Although the word "philosophy" originates in the Western tradition, many figures in the history of other cultures have addressed similar topics in similar ways.[6] The philosophers of the Far East are discussed in Eastern philosophy, while the philosophers of North Africa and the Near East, because of their strong interactions with Europe, are usually considered part of Western Philosophy.


As you can see the very definition of philosophy is to rationally question such things as religion.

hope this helps. I would highly recommend you enroll in a philosophy course at your local university.

Depends on how you define God. If God is eternal and infinite then it always was and always will be and hence like energy, can never be destroyed or created. This infinite and eternal energy/consciousness called 'God' is present in the infinite forms of creation yet the myriad forms of creation are all aspects of the one infinity. Hence by appearance things seem separate and loose but in substance everything is just one infinite thing.

A creator or designer God in my view is created from the eternal infinite God, great spirit, Tao or whatever you want to call it. The creator God like man is just a reflection of the infinite. The infinite is both man's and creator God's(s) true identity. Enlightenment is identifying with the one's true identity which is the eternal infinite and praying and worshipping a personal designer God for many is a means to that end (only a means).

But man does need God. Vedanta defines God as Brahman, which is beyond all duality, plurality and beyond all categories of thought; yet including these. But the Vedantic concept of God is difficult for the common man to understand. It is beyond those who are incapable of abstract thinking, for it is impossible for them to establish an effective living relationship with what is formless, infinite, transcendent, that Brahman is. Such people need a personal God with whom they establish a personal relationship- a father, mother, master, goddess, beloved, friend. Lord Krishna, a human incarnation of God, is closer to the heart of common man than Brahman could be. For unless the infinite is conceived in the finite form of a personal God, devotion will be lacking in depth and intensity. The senses need a form, a concrete something that can be held, touched and adored. (Sudhakar S.D, 1988. p54)




Creator God came from eternity in my view. Eternity which is infinite has always been and always will be. It always has been.



A creator God may have the purpose to create and to help other beings to the oneness of eternal infinity. Eternal infinity would have no purpose in my view because to have a purpose means you are limited and bound by that purpose and eternal infinity transcends all form and limitation.



I have a very optimistic view about God. God never condemns eternally in my view. And God puts us through pain and suffering so that we grow and come to deeper and less superficial levels of what love it. Love is the means to God and by love I dont mean limited bias emotional love. I mean a compassionate detachment that views everything as God(oneself) and embraces everything because of this. However such a state of mind only comes usually after years upon years (sometimes not even then) of religious dedication and self refinning(cleansing of temporal desires). I myself a no way close to such a state of mind but have strong faith that it can be reached and has been reached by many sages, saints and mystics.



God(eternal infinite) doesnt lack anything. It is always and eternally perfect this perfection is everywhere. Creator God myths and fables which have been distorted by much organized religion have twisted the Creator God definition into a personal egotistical maniac.

EM waves are everywhere, yet we don't see them either. Time isn't real in essence. I mean it's like...more than an illusion, but less than a reality.


It is possible to know God, and not understand him at the same time. I know God, I know who he is, and I know how he operates (generally, not thoroughly). However, I don't understand him completely. I only know of him. Some people don't want to know about God. Some people don't want there to be a God. Some people try, but look in the wrong places for God because their looking for what they want to be God, and not that which is God.


If you believe in God than there is no reason for his Godness to be tested. If you need to test God's Godness than you don't believe he is God.


Who knows?


Hmm...ok, what I mean is like...Suppose you have the candy, does the fact that you have it mean you don't want it anymore?


Hmm....he doesn't HAVE to create creatures...It's just a preferred method.



Hell is a ficticious human creation. Heaven (the Christian materialistic version) is also quite ficticious. The afterlife isn't really spoken of in Torah. I don't view anything as an "after" life. After all, who says that when we die, we've stopped living? I see eternity as a spectrum, and life is merely a part of the spectrum which we are in.



I am NOT a Christian, and I don't believe in their psycho blood-lusting bipolar god, or his dead son. The question does God have a God is a stupid question because in order for something to be God it CANNOT have a God, and thus if you believe in a God, than you believe he has no creator. End of story. Unless you want to forsake logic and redefine God to mean something else. I wasn't calling you stupid, I was merely saying that the question "Does God have a God" is a stupid question. It's the same as asking "Does the un-created have a creator?" <<If someone asked you that, what would you think about the question? Kind of a stupid question to ask right?

If this is not calling me stupid then I don’t know what is.

No it is not a stupid question. Especially for someone who uses logic. Obviously the OP didn’t think it was a stupid question or he wouldn’t have brought it up in the first place.

Does god have a god, is one of the basic philosophical questions. The OP specifically stated his questions are of a philosophical nature; therefore this basic philosophical question is entirely appropriate for this post.

Of Corse your answer to this question (with out the name calling included) is no. If you answer no to that question the next logical question is; if no one created god then where did he come from? I would guess your answer would be that he has always been around and always will be. And this is where all intelligent debate breaks down on this subject.

As I stated earlier when you get out of high school try taking some philosophy classes. That way you will at least understand philosophy next time you get into a philosophical discussion, they will also teach you that if you have to resort to name calling you have lost the debate. BTW name calling is also a sign of immaturity.

The question "Does God have a God" is an illogical question...I suppose it all depends on what you define as God, but based on the traditional definition of God, God CAN'T have a God, and thus to ask if he does is to make up your own definition of God and then ask if your definition of God has a God which no one could answer because you made that "god". And if you go based on the traditional definition of God, than to ask if God has a God is foolish. It's a stupid question if you truly believe that there is a God. Like I said, it's like asking if the un-created has a creator.


Based on what God is, he didn't come from anywhere because that is to suggest that there was a place where he wasn't, and that there is a place where he isn't, which if God is omnipresent isn't possible and thus is an illogical question. As I said in my first post in this thread, to try and understand God asking human questions will get us no where because of what God is. If God has not always been around and is not eternal, than he is not God.

In many religions both past and present there is more than one god (does that make these believers stupid and foolish?). I may be wrong but, I believe that a plural god is a relatively new concept in religion. Besides for someone who does not share your beliefs, does god have a god makes perfect sense because everything has to come from somewhere.

I do respect your beliefs but your answers to philosophical questions are not in the least philosophical. I have cut and pasted the Wikipedia definition to help you understand philosophy, and how it works. Please note that;

“Its investigations are based upon rational thinking, striving to make no unexamined assumptions and no leaps based on faith or pure analogy.”

Your answers are based on pure faith, not rational thinking.

Philosophy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
• Ten things you may not know about images on Wikipedia •
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Philosophy (disambiguation).


The philosopher Socrates about to take poison hemlock as ordered by the court.
Philosophy is the discipline concerned with questions of how one should live (ethics); what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics); what counts as genuine knowledge (epistemology); and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic).[1] [2] The word itself is of Greek origin: φιλοσοφία (philosophía), a compound of φίλος (phílos: friend, or lover) and σοφία (sophía: wisdom).[3][4]
Though no single definition of philosophy is uncontroversial, and the field has historically expanded and changed depending upon what kinds of questions were interesting or relevant in a given era, it is generally agreed that philosophy is a method, rather than a set of claims, propositions, or theories. Its investigations are based upon rational thinking, striving to make no unexamined assumptions and no leaps based on faith or pure analogy. Different philosophers have had varied ideas about the nature of reason, and there is also disagreement about the subject matter of philosophy. Some think that philosophy examines the process of inquiry itself. Others, that there are essentially philosophical propositions which it is the task of philosophy to prove.[5]

I believe that the reason one perceives a plurality to God is because they see his different aspects, and mistake them for separate entities instead of what it truly is (one entity).


How is it irrational? How can God have a God? Define God. Then based on your definition you'll know if he has a Creator. If you define God as a Supreme, All Self-Sufficient, Eternal, and Omni-Present/Potent than you have stated that God cannot have a Creator because a Supreme All Self-Sufficient being doesn't have a creator. If it did, it wouldn't be all Self-Sufficient, nor would it be Supreme.

We can't really comprehend god because we don't know sh** about it. I'm a philosopher and what i've concluded is that spirtuality is about faith unless you have proof like your psychic.

If God is perfect by definition, and God has no higher power then himself, then what is God's purpose?

If there is nothing higher above us then what is our purpose. We literially have to have faith in something higher or magical or else were just going to be depressed. I can not see how we and be moral with out god. "the science behind good and evil" claims that you can live morally without god but i don't think it can last.

First of all I don’t believe in god, but from what you and others have posted on this forum humans are incapable understanding god so asking me to describe and define god is a moot point.

If god exists then it only stands to reason that he had to come from somewhere. This is logical thinking. It is not logical to think that things have always been around, or that they can be everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

It was the inability of religion to answer these kinds of questions (logically) that helped me to become an atheist at a young age.

I have been doing it for 30+ years. Are you going to tell that I am immoral because I don’t believe in god?

Your right...God being that he is God, is illogical to human logic. That's why one must elevate their divine spark (soul) to a point where God becomes more understandable...Dogs don't understand cars...The Refrigerator is most like illogical to the cat...To the elephant, the sowing machine is imaginary...one must change one's thinking.


That is fine...this life is nothing more than a passing stage on the eternal spectrum. The glory of death shall bring to your mind a new knowledge, and from there you shall go on your eternal journey...there is nothing wrong with standing still (as you are at the moment).

Wow we have come to a common understanding (very rare on this fourm). Thanks for a good debate, look forward to talking again.

I'm saying that if your athiest then you don't believe in religion or spirituality, so you see the universe as causality and physics. You would see humans as mere chemical reactions and organs and just an organic system. Exsistance is an illusion because humans are practically very complex organic cars. We think we're alive but we're not. So everything is pointless it not? How you can be nice to people when you know it doesn't make a sh** of a diffrence is beyond me. How can you live with an athiest point of view. The only thing keeping morals is law and that doesn't really work anymore. Is it wrong if someone wants to live his life by killing and torturing people? In terms of athiesm or materialism there's nothing wrong with it.

With athiesm you do attain a good clear head about the universe but it's very depressing.

EM waves are also able to be tested and seen under certain conditions, time is just a concept that we gave a name to.


If God is by definition ineffable, then why do people attempt to explain him, give him qualities? By describing God you are only limiting him, by saying you know how he operates, you are limiting him.


Exactly.


There is a difference between me having something and God having something though. If I have candy downstairs and I decide I want some candy, I am still lacking the candy at the point in time. If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, etc., etc., he doesn't lack anything at any given time.


What is so illogical about it? You may say there is a God who is unexplainable, but I say if God is who he says he is, then what would a person like God think if you put yourself in his shoes? If you say the universe can't come from nothing, I say to you why can God? If you say God cannot be understood through the human mind, why did he give us a mind that can't comprehend him? And the last point, you're right, it's a foolish question if you believe in the traditional type of God, but where would we be as a population if we didn't ask questions?


I had to read this a few times to understand what it said so please don't get mad at me if i misinterpreted it. How can God be moral without a God? Morals are based on what people think are right and wrong based on their surroundings and customs. Why is it people think that it is okay to be a cannibal in a different country, but here we find it grotesque and disgusting? Why is it some people think it is okay to have multiple wives, but others say that is not right? There is no such thing as a perfect "moral code" or "good and evil", only what people think.


I like how you compare our understanding of God with that of animals and our inventions. Humans have a difference over animals, we can put two things together to come up with something else, also known as reasoning. God gave us these wonderful minds to use, but people choose to stop using them to believe something else so they feel safe and secure.


Wow, so the only reason religious people are nice to others is because a book told them so and they will be rewarded? Since I don't believe in a God I MUST treat everyone like sh** because I'm not afraid of consequences, lol. I'm nice to people because I want to be, not because it is "good" or "moral".


The same way you can live with your point of view.


Again, a correct understanding of morals would show you that laws don't make them, people do. Of course I think it's wrong if someone lives their life killing and torturing people, but that's because it was the way I was brought up in this culture. I'm sure someone living in Africa who has to kill everyday to survive wouldn't find it wrong or evil. Just wondering, why do you have such a hate for people who don't believe in a God?

Completely OT, but it struck me that if you substituted the concept of belief, or perhaps just love for god, in this saying, in place of the concept of interpersonal love, you would gain another viewpoint on the nature, purpose, etc. of god.

"You" here is a generic, not personal reference.

God can be "tested" as well, at least so some would say. I think maybe if one tried to use our connection to God to make such a spiritual vibration that all people instantly knew there was a God...but that could kill the person doing it...


Because of our limited ability to communicate the true nature of something, the ONLY way we can discuss God is by limiting him.


Exactly. He is both in the future and in the past, so to say that he wants something he does not have is to say that he isn't in a part of the future, which isn't possible. So I suppose God can't want anything....hmmm...Idk.


I don't say that the universe came from nothing. If I didn't know there was a God, I'd have a hard time explaining what the universe came from. It could come from nothing I suppose...However, because there is a God...it did not come from nothing.


Who is to say that our minds can't comprehend him? No, not at the moment, but if one were to exercise one's self so that the mind is in an elevated state, than one can understand him. However, I believe that the reason we are here on this world in this Earth is for this world and for this Earth. That is why God made us and brought us to this part of eternity in which we "live" on Earth. So basically, we haven't reached the point in our evolution where we can comprehend God, but I assume that we will someday, probably in a post "death" state.

Asking questions is great, but when we ask questions about God we get cloudy...why? Because there are many different opinions of "God". To ask questions about him is fine, but not if you expect concrete answers that can help you understand.


Are you saying that by believing in God we are forsaking the natural use of our brains and not using reasoning?

Wow! Glad I could provide an outlet for some of that anger.

I myself do not feel the need to act in the way your quite specific list of evil deeds describes. And it is my sincere hope that you stay active in your religion if that is what suppresses those feelings in you.

It’s quite simple; if you want to be a successful functioning member of most societies you must be able abide by certain laws and customs that do not allow torture and killing.

As far as common decency toward my fellow man, well that’s just way my parents raised me.

If God could be tested, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.


So why discuss God at all, why follow God when we can't even describe it/him?


So when people say that God just wants love from his creation, what's the point of this statement based on what we've accomplished so far?


So if something can't come from nothing, how did God come to be?


God himself.


So why should anyone follow any type of organized religion if it is just different opinions about God?


Not completely, but I am saying that the reason people join religion(s) is because it makes them feel safe and secure because they think that their God will protect them now that they have found them.

He can be tested, just not by the average person.


Most people have a reason. I follow him because I devoted myself to him after he saved me...


To be honest, I have no idea how to answer such a question.


I didn't say that something can't come from nothing, I said that because God exists the universe did not come from nothing. God can still come from nothing...of course he didn't come from anywhere because he is everywhere.


True! Alas, that slipped my mind..."My thoughts are higher than you thoughts and my ways higher than your ways...


People who share similar beliefs enjoy being together. As far as Judaism...why not follow it? It is the truth, the great wonderfulness of the universe. It is the religion of God...however many don't see it as that...and that's fine. You don't HAVE to follow religion. There is always eternity...until you soul dies...hmm...


God protects me whether I have other Chasidei HaOlam at my side or not, either way I am protected by God through his commands and his love.


Hmm...thank you cloud...further ponderance of theories I developed in the last few days have proven to be un-scriptural...I knew there was something funny about those Jewish mystics *shakes head*...I'm a tad confused now about eternity and all that good stuff...I shall merely trust in Torah and God's command. For therein lies my delight and my love. Your questions aren't really addressed in the Bible, and I'm not all that able to help you without contradicting what I've said before...I know God, but these questions are hard to answer.

No problem, that's the whole point of this discussion, to open up the mind. To be honest with you I used to consider myself a noachide, but that was before I explored farther from just religious texts. I found many flaws with the bible itself and now consider myself an agnostic borderline atheist. I won't deny God if I am given some sort of proof or inclination to believe in a God, but until then I consider myself a freethinker .

Well...tis only because thou hast yet to meet God...you shall someday, I can foresee it . I myself have looked beyond the texts only to find that all things lead me back to the text...tis where I should be in order to fulfill my purpose.

Wow.... did i come off as angry in that post. Whoops, i'm quite a happy guy

To evancj:

Ok i see that i wasn't really getting my point through in that post . You can be raised by your parents to be a certian way and then you can change what you were raised to be (Santa claus - well for me anyway). I must appologies, i don't know how to quote on this.

To cloud0729

You dont understand my moral view. Believe it or not i'm a skeptic. I have spend a lot of time trying to figure out what is a good thing to do and what is a bad thing to do. This pissed me off so much it was making my hairs gray. What I was trying to accomplish was "my philosophy" The best way I could spend my life. I was trying to come to a conclusion because i had enough of thinking about sh**. When you said "so the only reason religious people are nice to others is because a book told them so and they will be rewarded?" i laughed but in a way yes. It's not so i can go to heaven if thats what you were getting at.

From what i concluded is that EVERYTHING boyles down to one question. Does human consciousness mean something... does it have a value... is it significant/insignificant? This is wear faith comes into everything. Skeptics pretty much see the universe as causality thats just very pointless. I couldn't live with that, at least spirituality tried to put a reason or a unknowing ness as if there's something more, there is a point. You could say that spirituality is a comforting idea but i think seeing through an athiests eyes leads to depression and possibly harm. So what i have concluded is that if you can not prove that human consciousness has value then you must have faith that it does. So anything good is associated with caring or loving human consciousness and anything evil is not loving human consciousness (this can be applied to animals not just tied to humans) Now if you dont care about people what's left?? Self satisfacation (Greed) Greed sets in and money is put above other people. This was my problem when i was skeptic. I was being told that there no such thing as spirituality and i wasn't a greedy person so i got depressed.

I was told humans are merely systems, scientists seem to think that everything about us is in our brain and we are not partially a spirit. Scientists also claim that any spiritual expirience is psycological. People don't seem to comprehend that if they can systematicly map out all causes and effects in our brain then that means we are just matter and nothing more. Of course i don't think they'll be able to map everything out because of Quantium physics. Spirtuality has to exsist becuase without it we are ****ed. Life would be nothing without other people. People come first objects afterwards. So you may see why i don't like athiests point of view. If life is pointless and athiest are nice to people just to be nice then you must have faith in consciousness. To have faith in consciousness alone is not really enough. When i mean faith in cansciousness i mean the very fact that we can feel pain and love each other and careabout people and all the luvy duvy stuff that seems so powerful. It's like in all this there is a responsability that we just know that this sacred place of consciousness of self awareness is to be respected and cherished. We could manipulate people and casue mental anguish. It feels like this is what free will is. Whether we choose to care for people or put objects and ourselves above others. It's like gods stupidly hard test, If we can love even though we see no reason too then we pass. Something like this just opens up new possibilites. If athiests have faith in consciousness then they are not athiests basically.

One could say that ones consciousness or ones amazing and spectacular self is so devine that it can not possibly be expressed through the human body alone. What i'm suggesting is an aura. our thoughts and emotions bursting with such vibrency just pentrate outwards through our aura. It seems to me, in my mind anyway that the afterlife is experienced very feelingly and spirtualy areas are very emotional.

I think this "moral" view is the basis to religion and to kill in the name of god is a complete joke. Religion is not really forcing thought on people and doesn't have fear systems it's done through it's practice of morals (Sexual intercourse applyies, non of this using people for sex, it's about the person your with). It's hard because our body needs food so we have to live so we have to get money but otherwise loving people aren't greedy. Holy basically means loving, "oh your holiness" which you would hear in the renisiance times with their golden chapels and preists snobby outlook is a clear sign of corruption, greed and lack of love. Jesus got down and washed mary's feet which a high priest certianly wouldn't have done. There is a diffrence between a snobby priest and jesus. The whole thing about sacrifece is that if you sacrifice yourself for someone it's because you loved them not because it was for god. I don't know if jesus was real but it's about the moral behind the story. I don't know if god is real but whether if he is or not he won't care if we don't believe in him as long as we care about each other. I believe that religion is thought wrong. I think accepting this is the only compremise spiritualists and skeptics can make without proof with the whole is there value in consciousness.

What you think?