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Lionel
user posted imageA new book offering an alternative view of how the Grand Canyon was formed is the object of a book- banning effort by prominent evolutionists, who have demanded that the Grand Canyon National Park Service remove the text from bookstores within the park."Grand Canyon: A Different View" is the 2003 work of Tom Vail, who collected essays from 23 contributors (most of whom hold earned doctorates in science). His book presents a creation science viewpoint of the Canyon's formation that is quite different than what most Canyon visitors are told. Creation scientists present evidence that the Grand Canyon was formed not by the slow erosion of the Colorado River over millions of years, but by a lot of water over a short period of time. The controversial "Grand Canyon: A Different View" has been on sale at the Canyon's bookstores since last fall. It quickly raised the hackles of the presidents of seven science organizations, who jointly signed a December 16 2003 letter to the park's superintendent urging him to remove the book. Apparently in an effort to placate some outraged Grand Canyon employees, the book has been moved from the natural sciences section to the inspirational reading section of park bookstores.

"I've had reactions from the staff all over the board on it," park Deputy Supt. Kate Cannon. told the Los Angeles Times. "There were certainly people on the interpretive staff that were upset by it. Respect of visitors' views is imperative, but we do urge our interpreters to give scientifically correct information."


user posted image View: Full Article | Source: American Daily
crosswarrior
So much for Freedom of Speech. They teach Evolution in schools though it is only a theory. So why not teach creationism also and let the people believe what they will? Or are they afraid that someone might actually believe Creationism? huh.gif
lehi
how strange that these days if a person even sugest that god had anything to do with anything in this world, christians are ridiculed and even banded in some instances.
Isn't it rediculus, that atheist cry for free speach and get it even though they are the minority by a long shot since the last pole taken show the united states is over 80% christian the rest make up jews, muslims, and various a sunder different sects and religions, and yet in this country that was founded on christianity and freedom of speechand that the majority rules, have turned it all around over the years,where only a few pull all the strings, and actually make it seem that if you beleive in god that there is something wrong with you, mentally.
this country was made so that freedom of religion for all religions, jew, muslim and christianity; but even in schools these days will alow jews to pray and where the star of david in school, and muslims are alowed to bring the karan, and pray in school, but dare you not pray to god, or mention his name or bring a bible into school if you are a christian, for your punishment will be savere; my daughter just asked why they dont teach creationism in school, a simple question for a ten year old, you would think, but then the next thing you know she is in the princples office for trying to be an upstart, and then my wife was called, and was asked why we would allow such behavior, instead of teaching our child to comform to society, we teach her to be narrow minded and prejudice; we asked what did having asked a simple question as why dont they teach creatsionism have to do with narrow minded ness and prejudism?
and the question still rings in my ears, why because a person is a christian, is he concidered a threat to anyone?
Xenojjin
prepare to flame me , but sometimes I get the idea demons are influencing the minds of those persecuting christianity to an obsessive and disturbing degree . Once you think about it , the fact christianity is widely practice is hardly reason for everyone else to hate and flame THAT specific religion , somethings fishy about it . And now some of the highest ranked creditable scientists are showing actions that couldn't be any more hypocritical and arrogant . Some guy shows how assuming god existed how god could have formed the grand canyon ... who cares ?! huh.gif
Socol
QUOTE
sometimes I get the idea demons are influencing the minds of those persecuting christianity to an obsessive and disturbing degree .



Couldn't have said it better myself. The sad thing is, the principle is so asinine; he brings his own feelings into his job instead of doing what’s best for the students.

Someday, they should just proclaim "Evolution" to be it's own form of religion. Thus, the very people who fight so hard to separate Church from State ban evolution talk from schools like they do to Christianity.
Novo
I can see my life science class in a year

*Teacher*:Today class we are studying...ummm.....COLORS!!!!
bathory
QUOTE
So much for Freedom of Speech. They teach Evolution in schools though it is only a theory. So why not teach creationism also and let the people believe what they will? Or are they afraid that someone might actually believe Creationism?


no, its because it is wrong, its not science. Should maths teachers teach 1 + 1 = 11? its the same concept.

QUOTE
how strange that these days if a person even sugest that god had anything to do with anything in this world, christians are ridiculed and even banded in some instances.


it has nothing to do with free speech, do you believe that Flat Earth theories should be taught in science? Even though its plainly wrong? Do you believe that Lemarkism should be taught as fact when it was proven wrong over a hundred years ago? etc etc its not a question of speech, its a question of facts.

It really shows that you guys have zero idea when it comes to evolution, next we'll hear christian claims "The theory of relativity is only a theory!"

I have an idea, how about, Christians teach creationism and other forms of bad science at church! simple, and Scientists can teach evolution in the science classrooms!
Xenojjin
oh boy bathory , more of your talk that shows you know absolutly nothing about creation ideas . And the book is something that provides a scientific explanation of the grand canyons formation assuming god existed , it doesn't try to shove it down your throats . Since scientists dont know for sure whether or not their is a god , and believing in god is not some ignorant hic thing as you come accross as . Many scientists actually do believe in god today . Lets not go off on another religious debate and stick to the topic of whether or not this is a right thing to do .



This is not only a violation of freedom of speech but freedom of religion as well as the initial intent was to ban the book entirely .

Lets just assume for all the fun of it that God does not exist and we came from a cell billions of years ago that spawned from spontaneous generation ( Life from no life ) . Now lets say their is a tribe that has had this ancient religion for years that their has been much controversy on , and a few come forth with a scientific explanation with their gods possibility of existance included and they want to put it in the science section of some tourist shop .

Now to question myself

1. Do I care ?
A) no .

2.What would be the only reason for trying to ban this book ?
A) large ego .

Novo
This is why anarchy has problems tongue.gif What a prime example...
bathory
QUOTE
And the book is something that provides a scientific explanation of the grand canyons formation assuming god existed , it doesn't try to shove it down your throats .


i think the problem resides in the fact that its most likely wrong, and that by allowing it to be treated like any other scientific resources, you validify it, and then people buy it, read it, say "OMG SO THATS THE TRUTH" and then become even more misinformed.

QUOTE
Many scientists actually do believe in god today .


because you are in a position to tell me what scientists believe in. So where did you come to that conclusion?

QUOTE
Since scientists dont know for sure whether or not their is a god , and believing in god is not some ignorant hic thing as you come accross as .


my arguement isn't even against religion in this case, its simply, creationism is bad science, there is hardly any proof, what proof there is, is usually using bloated figures, bad sourcing, out dated information, and poorly understood concepts and occasionally, flat out lies (especially when dealing with people such as Hovind). Its as simple as that.

QUOTE

2.What would be the only reason for trying to ban this book ?
A) large ego .


or perhaps
cool.gif it perpetuates a lie (its conclusions) through the use of bad science to misinform people.

That said i don't think it should be banned, they acted accordingly and removed it from the science section.
Xenojjin
do you know what the science behind creation is ?
Socol
Oh joy, bathory!

QUOTE
do you believe that Flat Earth theories should be taught in science? Even though its plainly wrong?


It has been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that Earth isn't flat; so no, that theory shouldn't be taught. However, creationism hasn't been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that it didn't happen, making your above statement pointless.

So it has as much right to be taught as evolution does.
bathory
how do you know that the earth isn't flat?
my point is that you'd happily accept creationism with its dodgy evidence, yet you don't accept the whole flat earth concept with its dodgy evidence

Especially when you have vocal idiots like Kent Hovind running around, definately doesn't help the cause:)
KayEl
I still can't believe there are people out there who still question evolution.

The fact that your kids look like you and the fact that you look like your parents is proof enough! Take a look at the fossil records!
Naveed
QUOTE (KayEl @ Jan 12 2004, 05:44 AM)

The fact that your kids look like you and the fact that you look like your parents is proof enough! Take a look at the fossil records!

Sadly most creationists don't even accept the fossil record, despite the overwhelming evidence of it. Seriously I've read numerous creationist essays, and looked at their evidence. Even the stuff I found to be from "christian scientists" and for the most part I found them highly unscientific in their studies. Even with the scientific method as they call it. And also in my opinion evolution is evidence of God, because I don't think that such a well designed thing such as evolution could exist without a higher intelligence behind it.

Why don't we just all get along and forget our differences. As the great Eric Idle of Monty Python once sang:


Some things in life are bad,
They can really make you mad,
Other things just make you swear and curse,
When you're chewing your life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle,
And this'll help things turn out for the best,
And.....

Always look on the bright side of life.
[whistling]
Always look on the light side of life.
[whistling]

If life seems jolly rotten,
There's something you've forgotten,
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you're feeling in the dumps,
Don't be silly chumps.
Just purse your lips and whistle. That's the thing.
And...

Always look on the bright side of life.
[whistling]
Always look on the right side of life,
[whistling]

For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word.
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin.
Give the audience a grin.
Enjoy it. It's your last chance, anyhow.
So,...

Always look on the bright side of death,
[whistling]
Just before you draw your terminal breath.
[whistling]

Life's a piece of sh**,
When you look at it.
Life's a laugh and death's a joke. It's true.
You'll see it's all a show.
Keep 'em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.
And...

(repeat till the end)
Always look on the bright side of life.
[whistling]
Always look on the right side of life,
[whistling]

Well it has nothing to do with what I just said, but it has good meaning. whistling2.gif
Consummate Deist
The problem with Creationism is that they do not take certain things into account. In order for the world to be flooded above the highest peaks, there would have to be over 6 miles of water depth worldwide. Where did this water come from, if you subscribe to the "Canopy theory" it came from the canopy of water vapor that existed around the world from the creation to the flood. The only problem here is that the canopy would have to extend to 93 km above the earth and the resulting pressure exerted upon the earth would be about the same as at the bottom of the ocean now. When the rains started, it would have to rain 6 inches a minute for 40 days and 40 nights in order to meet the criteria of Genesis. When water vapor leaves it's gaseous state and becomes liquid, 10 calories of heat is released, the release of this much heat from a canopy 93 km thick, even over 40 days and nights, would raise the temperature of the Earth to somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 degrees F. Can you say Noah barbeque? If you subscribe to the tectonic plate theory of creation, where much of the water comes from underground and the ocean basins open up to accept the run off at the end of the flood, you have once again cooked Noah and company, since the resulting volcanic activity that would accompany such fast tectonic activity (6 meters of travel a day - as opposed to the present 3cm a year) would raise the temperature of the Earth to around 3500 degrees F. Sorry, unless you want to suspend the laws of thermodynamics (those laws that Creationist use to try to disprove Evolution), there is no way that Creationism is correct....as someone said - Junk Science! rolleyes.gif
KayEl
I don't think evolution is so well designed. Look at how many species in Earth's history went extinct!
Consummate Deist
QUOTE
I don't think evolution is so well designed


Evolution is not about the "best" solution, it is what works and doesn't get the mutation killed before it breeds. rolleyes.gif
buggyelfmaiden
QUOTE (Naveed @ Jan 12 2004, 08:27 AM)

Always look on the bright side of life.
[whistling]
Always look on the light side of life.
[whistling]

oh gods... you did not go there... *Snickers* My hubby just watched that one last night.

You know what though... How long did all of you spend on religion in school? If you learned about the crusades... there's what a week... Maybe two...

I think the USA is a bit biased on their schooling anyway. Because I remember spending two hours only on the orient and asia... while the rest of my 'world' history class was Europe and the Americas...

Now to go back on topic.....

You know it's a book, plain and simple. People tend to put a lot of faith in books, buit you know what? Even the bible has mistakes, I mean it's written by man.

*Knows she's going to get flamed for that comment, glad we are more civilized and don't burn people at the stake anymore*

And if the book is full of facts that can be proven, then I don't see a problem with it. All I know about the Grand Canyon you can put on the surface of a dime. It's a place of wonder. If we try to explain it then that sort of takes the beauty from it doesn't it?

I mean would you question why the earth exists at all... Or even why man still lives.. I mean you go with what scientists say, everything we eat's bad for us if not in moderation....

*Thinks she hit the topic somewhere in there....*
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