It's been quite a while now since I left my religion for atheism.. and in that time I've done a great deal of learning, debating, and discussing on the topic of religion. And it's been a productive experience, don't get me wrong, but by now.. I'm getting tired of being politically correct.
Before I continue and start a witch hunt, allow me to preface the meat of this topic with a short analysis of religion. Religion may well be almost as old as man. It's certainly as old as man's recorded history. And it's become a bustling establishment. There are thousands of religions; from fairies to spirits to godmen, everything under the sun is held as a very firm reality to someone out there. And every religion is "the" religion, the one religion that truly understands and teaches the nature of all this spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
On that point alone, religion wouldn't bother me. Pick your poison, if you want to believe in an afterlife it's not something I'll concern myself with; because we can all do what we want to do, and who am I to interfere with harmless things like self-truths? I really would like if it were that simple.. If we could all just get along on the same earth and accept that people are going to have different religions. The trouble is, it's never that simple with human beings. No, because almost every religion needs your help to popularize itself. I guess God doesn't really feel like delivering some informational pamphlets to explain himself, no; he wants word of mouth conversion. You have to become a tool for God if you want to be of any use for your religion.. and you have to try and convince as many people as possible that they're misguided and you've had some sort of epiphany that they should also have.
And once again, I could live with that. I'll listen to what your religion's about, and then I'll get on with my life; no hard feelings, right? It's really just doesn't suit me to be another tool in the shed. And ideally, from this point on we could go our separate ways with our own ideals and beliefs and that would be that. Wouldn't it be wonderful?
Of course, all too often in the real world, that's not how it happens. It's not enough to just leave people to their own devices, some people get angry when Billy Bob doesn't like their god or prophets. Some people start using force.. because in some religions, it's standard policy to try and enlighten the sh** out of you. This is when religion becomes more than just something we politely discuss over tea. It's when people begin to lose their liberties, their possessions, and in many cases, their lives... over whose invisible macho man is better.
And no, you don't need to fill me in. I've been informed before that those people are not real representatives of their god. They're not actually trying to follow the teachings of their religion, even though they can always tell you in an instant exactly where their religion says they should do what they're doing. Yeah, I've heard that they're just using their religion as an excuse to murder.. because everybody understands you when you throw out the "God told me to cut Jimmy up" line.
So please, can anyone tell me, why should I respect religion? Is it those people who hate and murder because their holy book told them to? Is it the people who shove the blame fully on the person and make every excuse possible for the book, which is obviously the motivator for those people to commit their crimes? Why on earth am I supposed to respect the thing that has signed the death warrants of countless masses of men, women and children?
I'm tired of being politically correct about religion, because it has fully demonstrated that it will take advantage of every last scrap of respect it is given, only to ask for more and more with puppy dog eyes. Religion will buy a gun from you, shoot you and then rob its money back from the corpse... and it has proven this far too many times. It's not about harmless fantasies anymore when people are dying.
I don't mean to say that all belief and religion is bad. I'm not trying to express an inherent hate for religious people. I still judge every person by their actions alone and not by their affiliations. But we are living in turbulent times, and they are times when religious struggle could potentially place myself and everyone I know in grave danger... so in my opinion, the time for excusing mistakes and letting bygones be bygones are over with religion... and the time for political correctness has long since passed. I don't want to come off as angry, but I can't lie.. I am angry. While I sit peacefully in my home and type this out, there are people all around the world who are feeling the merciless nature of extreme religion, and that is something to be very angry about.
Full Version: I'm tired of being politically correct
You cannot civilize the world unilaterally. You can, alas, make the world less civilized unilaterally, by acting badly.
So: treat people well, and go after lousy ideas mercilessly.
Sounds like a plan to me.
So: treat people well, and go after lousy ideas mercilessly.
Sounds like a plan to me.
You make a good point only in the fact that when has religion, a. respected others who didn't believe the same religion or b. respected those who had no religious belief ? It seems that in times like these, when there is such a thing as political correctness its made in the case of christianity, the RELIGIOUS have to act better. Take for example the whole "holiday" vs. Christmas debate a few years ago. Here is a case where christians want to have religious themed decorations, have the season called the Christmas season (other faiths are just SOL) and then get in a mighty uproar because their holiday is being religiously sanitized. Hmm did it ever occur to them that maybe just maybe not everyone either believes or believes the same and would want or need a little baby jesus glowing in some plastic creche on public property. Political correctness has finally swung in a direction that christians don't like and they feel at times under attack. Of course I find that somewhat ironic in that it never occured to them before to be inclusive and that limiting things to "just the christian way" might be seen as glaringly NOT inclusive. So don't be politically correct if you like I quite understand your reasoning, but don't fault political correctness because sometimes it does bite just the right people in the butt...
Too right! Good for you.. Political correctness is crap...
I guess I tend to go both ways on this. Sometimes political correctness is necessary to get along in this world. Other times, it's just rediculous. I think I have two very simple examples.
When I was a teenager, I worked at a restaurant that was kind of like a gormet caffeteria style place (in fact, it's the same company that makes or provides the recipes for all your tasty Starbucks muffins, scones etc...) It was about a week before christmas, a holiday that I've never celebrated when i was young and even now. Two women came down the line with their lunches and they were burdened with tons of packages and they'd clearly been out doing some heavy shopping. After I finished ringing them up, I made and assumption and said "have a good Christmas" Oh boy WRONG statement. They dressed me down big time and pointed out that they didn't celebrate Christmas, and that they were in fact Jewish. They were honestly insulted (this would have been in about 1984). Never again did I wish anyone "Merry Christmas" unless I knew for a fact that they did indeed celebrate the holiday. Political correctness could have saved me some embarassment and saved them from getting their hackles up. Stupid yes, but a reality.
On the other hand, many years later, I worked in the mortgage origination software industry. It's an industry rife with legal and regulatory rules. I can remember several years ago we had to scramble HARD to rework all the forms our software output because Alaska Indians decided that they were NOT "AlanskaN" indians, but Alaska indians without the N. These forms ask questions about your ethnic background just like job applications and other forms that can be used to collect data about what people are buying where and for how much. These questions are always optional. We had to meet a federal deadline, to the tune of many many thousands of dollars to remove the letter N from these forms. Stupid stupid stupid. Why they couldn't wait until the next scheduled release of the software I'll NEVER know.
Some political correctness isn't a bad thing, what's difficult is where to draw the line.
When I was a teenager, I worked at a restaurant that was kind of like a gormet caffeteria style place (in fact, it's the same company that makes or provides the recipes for all your tasty Starbucks muffins, scones etc...) It was about a week before christmas, a holiday that I've never celebrated when i was young and even now. Two women came down the line with their lunches and they were burdened with tons of packages and they'd clearly been out doing some heavy shopping. After I finished ringing them up, I made and assumption and said "have a good Christmas" Oh boy WRONG statement. They dressed me down big time and pointed out that they didn't celebrate Christmas, and that they were in fact Jewish. They were honestly insulted (this would have been in about 1984). Never again did I wish anyone "Merry Christmas" unless I knew for a fact that they did indeed celebrate the holiday. Political correctness could have saved me some embarassment and saved them from getting their hackles up. Stupid yes, but a reality.
On the other hand, many years later, I worked in the mortgage origination software industry. It's an industry rife with legal and regulatory rules. I can remember several years ago we had to scramble HARD to rework all the forms our software output because Alaska Indians decided that they were NOT "AlanskaN" indians, but Alaska indians without the N. These forms ask questions about your ethnic background just like job applications and other forms that can be used to collect data about what people are buying where and for how much. These questions are always optional. We had to meet a federal deadline, to the tune of many many thousands of dollars to remove the letter N from these forms. Stupid stupid stupid. Why they couldn't wait until the next scheduled release of the software I'll NEVER know.
Some political correctness isn't a bad thing, what's difficult is where to draw the line.
QUOTE(MissMelsWell @ Oct 14 2007, 12:27 PM) 
I guess I tend to go both ways on this. Sometimes political correctness is necessary to get along in this world. Other times, it's just rediculous. I think I have two very simple examples.
When I was a teenager, I worked at a restaurant that was kind of like a gormet caffeteria style place (in fact, it's the same company that makes or provides the recipes for all your tasty Starbucks muffins, scones etc...) It was about a week before christmas, a holiday that I've never celebrated when i was young and even now. Two women came down the line with their lunches and they were burdened with tons of packages and they'd clearly been out doing some heavy shopping. After I finished ringing them up, I made and assumption and said "have a good Christmas" Oh boy WRONG statement. They dressed me down big time and pointed out that they didn't celebrate Christmas, and that they were in fact Jewish. They were honestly insulted (this would have been in about 1984). Never again did I wish anyone "Merry Christmas" unless I knew for a fact that they did indeed celebrate the holiday. Political correctness could have saved me some embarassment and saved them from getting their hackles up. Stupid yes, but a reality.
On the other hand, many years later, I worked in the mortgage origination software industry. It's an industry rife with legal and regulatory rules. I can remember several years ago we had to scramble HARD to rework all the forms our software output because Alaska Indians decided that they were NOT "AlanskaN" indians, but Alaska indians without the N. These forms ask questions about your ethnic background just like job applications and other forms that can be used to collect data about what people are buying where and for how much. These questions are always optional. We had to meet a federal deadline, to the tune of many many thousands of dollars to remove the letter N from these forms. Stupid stupid stupid. Why they couldn't wait until the next scheduled release of the software I'll NEVER know.
Some political correctness isn't a bad thing, what's difficult is where to draw the line.
When I was a teenager, I worked at a restaurant that was kind of like a gormet caffeteria style place (in fact, it's the same company that makes or provides the recipes for all your tasty Starbucks muffins, scones etc...) It was about a week before christmas, a holiday that I've never celebrated when i was young and even now. Two women came down the line with their lunches and they were burdened with tons of packages and they'd clearly been out doing some heavy shopping. After I finished ringing them up, I made and assumption and said "have a good Christmas" Oh boy WRONG statement. They dressed me down big time and pointed out that they didn't celebrate Christmas, and that they were in fact Jewish. They were honestly insulted (this would have been in about 1984). Never again did I wish anyone "Merry Christmas" unless I knew for a fact that they did indeed celebrate the holiday. Political correctness could have saved me some embarassment and saved them from getting their hackles up. Stupid yes, but a reality.
On the other hand, many years later, I worked in the mortgage origination software industry. It's an industry rife with legal and regulatory rules. I can remember several years ago we had to scramble HARD to rework all the forms our software output because Alaska Indians decided that they were NOT "AlanskaN" indians, but Alaska indians without the N. These forms ask questions about your ethnic background just like job applications and other forms that can be used to collect data about what people are buying where and for how much. These questions are always optional. We had to meet a federal deadline, to the tune of many many thousands of dollars to remove the letter N from these forms. Stupid stupid stupid. Why they couldn't wait until the next scheduled release of the software I'll NEVER know.
Some political correctness isn't a bad thing, what's difficult is where to draw the line.
I would agree I guess, although in your first example it was still the blame of the other person. This was what I was talking about.. should I be politically correct because other people don't like what I might have to say? Well if it's something like "Merry Christmas", then it's definitely their fault for getting offended... do they expect people to be psychic and just know that they are part of a tiny religion which doesn't celebrate Christmas? And of course, in a professional atmosphere, you have to think about things like that.. but in just social affairs, those aren't the type of people I'd want to surround myself with in the first place; but that's just me.
Politcal correctness huh ?
The communal tyranny started in the 1980's ?
Remember "Newspeak'..............oh yes that takes me back
PC can be dangerous. It is dishonest and keeps things from progressing it is the manipulation of language to prevent dissenting thoughts being expressed
The communal tyranny started in the 1980's ?
Remember "Newspeak'..............oh yes that takes me back
PC can be dangerous. It is dishonest and keeps things from progressing it is the manipulation of language to prevent dissenting thoughts being expressed
You know what I think is interesting is this "persecution complex" that atheists always seem to have about religious people.
Frankly listening to people play out their inner drama on the public stage is vomit inducing.
If you chose to be an atheist GOOD FOR YOU. I was an atheist for a long time and lo and behold I absolutely never had a single moment's problem being one.
Why? Because I didn't expect the world to change with me. I was realistic enough to recognize that most people are not atheists and most people strongly believe in their Whiskey God in the Sky of choice.
Its never been any sweat off my back what a person's personal beliefs are. When those beliefs get in the way of Gay Rights, I say something.
But even in that I understand that progress takes time and the journey is part of the experience.
I'm really tired of immature people who choose atheism and suddenly realize they are not inline with everyone else and want to get permission to throw a public hissy fit every time a religious person "prays at dinner" "knocks on the door" "tries to share their beliefs"
Oddly, I've never had a single problem getting through any of those situations because I am confident in my beliefs and respectful of others in theirs.
If there is a feeling rising up in you that says I'm tired of being tolerant, there is a word for that feeling.
Its called INTOLERANCE
If these feelings are coming up inside YOU then you are the one with the problem no matter how much you try to rationalize that you have a right to hate, you are wrong.
No matter how much you want to justify that its not YOU because you do like SOME religious people etc.... that's no different than saying "Well some blacks are ok but most are not"
You are the one with the problem and you might couch it in a phrase that says I'm tired of being politically correct.
But what the reality is, you've adapted a certain view and are no longer TOLERANT of others who have a different view.
Frankly listening to people play out their inner drama on the public stage is vomit inducing.
If you chose to be an atheist GOOD FOR YOU. I was an atheist for a long time and lo and behold I absolutely never had a single moment's problem being one.
Why? Because I didn't expect the world to change with me. I was realistic enough to recognize that most people are not atheists and most people strongly believe in their Whiskey God in the Sky of choice.
Its never been any sweat off my back what a person's personal beliefs are. When those beliefs get in the way of Gay Rights, I say something.
But even in that I understand that progress takes time and the journey is part of the experience.
I'm really tired of immature people who choose atheism and suddenly realize they are not inline with everyone else and want to get permission to throw a public hissy fit every time a religious person "prays at dinner" "knocks on the door" "tries to share their beliefs"
Oddly, I've never had a single problem getting through any of those situations because I am confident in my beliefs and respectful of others in theirs.
If there is a feeling rising up in you that says I'm tired of being tolerant, there is a word for that feeling.
Its called INTOLERANCE
QUOTE
in·tol·er·ance (plural in·tol·er·ances)
noun
Definition:
1. refusal to accept differences: unwillingness or refusal to accept people who are different from you, or views, beliefs, or lifestyles that differ from your own
racial intolerance
noun
Definition:
1. refusal to accept differences: unwillingness or refusal to accept people who are different from you, or views, beliefs, or lifestyles that differ from your own
racial intolerance
QUOTE
in·tol·er·ant (n-tlr-nt)
adj.
Not tolerant, especially:
a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself, especially those of a different racial, ethnic, or social background.
c. Unable or unwilling to endure or support: intolerant of interruptions; a community intolerant of crime.
adj.
Not tolerant, especially:
a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself, especially those of a different racial, ethnic, or social background.
c. Unable or unwilling to endure or support: intolerant of interruptions; a community intolerant of crime.
If these feelings are coming up inside YOU then you are the one with the problem no matter how much you try to rationalize that you have a right to hate, you are wrong.
No matter how much you want to justify that its not YOU because you do like SOME religious people etc.... that's no different than saying "Well some blacks are ok but most are not"
You are the one with the problem and you might couch it in a phrase that says I'm tired of being politically correct.
But what the reality is, you've adapted a certain view and are no longer TOLERANT of others who have a different view.
QUOTE(truethat @ Oct 14 2007, 11:17 PM)
You know what I think is interesting is this "persecution complex" that atheists always seem to have about religious people.
Frankly listening to people play out their inner drama on the public stage is vomit inducing.
If you chose to be an atheist GOOD FOR YOU. I was an atheist for a long time and lo and behold I absolutely never had a single moment's problem being one.
Why? Because I didn't expect the world to change with me. I was realistic enough to recognize that most people are not atheists and most people strongly believe in their Whiskey God in the Sky of choice.
Its never been any sweat off my back what a person's personal beliefs are. When those beliefs get in the way of Gay Rights, I say something.
But even in that I understand that progress takes time and the journey is part of the experience.
I'm really tired of immature people who choose atheism and suddenly realize they are not inline with everyone else and want to get permission to throw a public hissy fit every time a religious person "prays at dinner" "knocks on the door" "tries to share their beliefs"
Oddly, I've never had a single problem getting through any of those situations because I am confident in my beliefs and respectful of others in theirs.
If there is a feeling rising up in you that says I'm tired of being tolerant, there is a word for that feeling.
Its called INTOLERANCE
If these feelings are coming up inside YOU then you are the one with the problem no matter how much you try to rationalize that you have a right to hate, you are wrong.
No matter how much you want to justify that its not YOU because you do like SOME religious people etc.... that's no different than saying "Well some blacks are ok but most are not"
You are the one with the problem and you might couch it in a phrase that says I'm tired of being politically correct.
But what the reality is, you've adapted a certain view and are no longer TOLERANT of others who have a different view.
Frankly listening to people play out their inner drama on the public stage is vomit inducing.
If you chose to be an atheist GOOD FOR YOU. I was an atheist for a long time and lo and behold I absolutely never had a single moment's problem being one.
Why? Because I didn't expect the world to change with me. I was realistic enough to recognize that most people are not atheists and most people strongly believe in their Whiskey God in the Sky of choice.
Its never been any sweat off my back what a person's personal beliefs are. When those beliefs get in the way of Gay Rights, I say something.
But even in that I understand that progress takes time and the journey is part of the experience.
I'm really tired of immature people who choose atheism and suddenly realize they are not inline with everyone else and want to get permission to throw a public hissy fit every time a religious person "prays at dinner" "knocks on the door" "tries to share their beliefs"
Oddly, I've never had a single problem getting through any of those situations because I am confident in my beliefs and respectful of others in theirs.
If there is a feeling rising up in you that says I'm tired of being tolerant, there is a word for that feeling.
Its called INTOLERANCE
If these feelings are coming up inside YOU then you are the one with the problem no matter how much you try to rationalize that you have a right to hate, you are wrong.
No matter how much you want to justify that its not YOU because you do like SOME religious people etc.... that's no different than saying "Well some blacks are ok but most are not"
You are the one with the problem and you might couch it in a phrase that says I'm tired of being politically correct.
But what the reality is, you've adapted a certain view and are no longer TOLERANT of others who have a different view.
Thanks for your insight..............are you done psychoanalyzing us yet Dr. truethat ?
I live in Europe so I'm not feeling particularly "persecuted" but I can sympathise with Atheists even though I am not one.
And no, when certain believers stone & burn their women in the name of religion my tolerance ends.
This is a spirituality vs. scepticism board Dr.truethat so here we can p*$$ & moan all we want. Enjoy the stink of it-otherwise keep your nose out.
You are being quite intolerant of our intolerance.
You seem to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
Your comments are often snooty & venomous and your avatar suits you perfectly.
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Oct 14 2007, 09:59 PM)
Thanks for your insight..............are you done psychoanalyzing us yet Dr. truethat ?
I live in Europe so I'm not feeling particularly "persecuted" but I can sympathise with Atheists even though I am not one.
And no, when certain believers stone & burn their women in the name of religion my tolerance ends.
This is a spirituality vs. scepticism board Dr.truethat so here we can p*$$ & moan all we want. Enjoy the stink of it-otherwise keep your nose out.
You are being quite intolerant of our intolerance.
I live in Europe so I'm not feeling particularly "persecuted" but I can sympathise with Atheists even though I am not one.
And no, when certain believers stone & burn their women in the name of religion my tolerance ends.
This is a spirituality vs. scepticism board Dr.truethat so here we can p*$$ & moan all we want. Enjoy the stink of it-otherwise keep your nose out.
You are being quite intolerant of our intolerance.
If you continue to mock me I will report you. We all know you are on thin ice as it is. So don't push it.
I'm sorry you feel the need to resort to name calling to win your argument. But that is always to me the first indication that you have lost it.
As to your last point, Yes I am intolerant of intolerance. I very much am across the board. The fact that you seem to think that's an insult is funny.
QUOTE(truethat @ Oct 15 2007, 12:05 AM)
If you continue to mock me I will report you. We all know you are on thin ice as it is. So don't push it.
I'm sorry you feel the need to resort to name calling to win your argument. But that is always to me the first indication that you have lost it.
As to your last point, Yes I am intolerant of intolerance. I very much am across the board. The fact that you seem to think that's an insult is funny.
I'm sorry you feel the need to resort to name calling to win your argument. But that is always to me the first indication that you have lost it.
As to your last point, Yes I am intolerant of intolerance. I very much am across the board. The fact that you seem to think that's an insult is funny.
*snip*
Let's forgo the personal jabs and keep the responses focused on the topic at hand please. A measure of civility is required if you desire to participate, derogatory quips and comments are unproductive and undesireable.
I don't have to tolerate ANYTHING ...I say it as I see it, plain and simple and I don't care what others think, if I am called intolerant, then that usually comes from people that feel I have no right to freedom of speech and they are demonstrating how THEY have a problem too...
The law don't state you MUST tolerate everything...
The law don't state you MUST tolerate everything...
QUOTE(truethat @ Oct 14 2007, 03:17 PM)
You know what I think is interesting is this "persecution complex" that atheists always seem to have about religious people.
Frankly listening to people play out their inner drama on the public stage is vomit inducing.
If you chose to be an atheist GOOD FOR YOU. I was an atheist for a long time and lo and behold I absolutely never had a single moment's problem being one.
Why? Because I didn't expect the world to change with me. I was realistic enough to recognize that most people are not atheists and most people strongly believe in their Whiskey God in the Sky of choice.
Its never been any sweat off my back what a person's personal beliefs are. When those beliefs get in the way of Gay Rights, I say something.
But even in that I understand that progress takes time and the journey is part of the experience.
I'm really tired of immature people who choose atheism and suddenly realize they are not inline with everyone else and want to get permission to throw a public hissy fit every time a religious person "prays at dinner" "knocks on the door" "tries to share their beliefs"
Oddly, I've never had a single problem getting through any of those situations because I am confident in my beliefs and respectful of others in theirs.
If there is a feeling rising up in you that says I'm tired of being tolerant, there is a word for that feeling.
Its called INTOLERANCE
If these feelings are coming up inside YOU then you are the one with the problem no matter how much you try to rationalize that you have a right to hate, you are wrong.
No matter how much you want to justify that its not YOU because you do like SOME religious people etc.... that's no different than saying "Well some blacks are ok but most are not"
You are the one with the problem and you might couch it in a phrase that says I'm tired of being politically correct.
But what the reality is, you've adapted a certain view and are no longer TOLERANT of others who have a different view.
Frankly listening to people play out their inner drama on the public stage is vomit inducing.
If you chose to be an atheist GOOD FOR YOU. I was an atheist for a long time and lo and behold I absolutely never had a single moment's problem being one.
Why? Because I didn't expect the world to change with me. I was realistic enough to recognize that most people are not atheists and most people strongly believe in their Whiskey God in the Sky of choice.
Its never been any sweat off my back what a person's personal beliefs are. When those beliefs get in the way of Gay Rights, I say something.
But even in that I understand that progress takes time and the journey is part of the experience.
I'm really tired of immature people who choose atheism and suddenly realize they are not inline with everyone else and want to get permission to throw a public hissy fit every time a religious person "prays at dinner" "knocks on the door" "tries to share their beliefs"
Oddly, I've never had a single problem getting through any of those situations because I am confident in my beliefs and respectful of others in theirs.
If there is a feeling rising up in you that says I'm tired of being tolerant, there is a word for that feeling.
Its called INTOLERANCE
If these feelings are coming up inside YOU then you are the one with the problem no matter how much you try to rationalize that you have a right to hate, you are wrong.
No matter how much you want to justify that its not YOU because you do like SOME religious people etc.... that's no different than saying "Well some blacks are ok but most are not"
You are the one with the problem and you might couch it in a phrase that says I'm tired of being politically correct.
But what the reality is, you've adapted a certain view and are no longer TOLERANT of others who have a different view.
Oh please true, spare me. I said in my post that I judge people by their actions and not by their affiliations.
There is a point where tolerance becomes sickening. If a man walks in your house and murders your family, would you still want to be tolerant? Religion has been and will continue to be the cause of death for millions of people around the world. Your brand of tolerance is more of an ignorance that lends a deaf ear to the problems that religion is causing. It's not the people I'm intolerant of, it's the religion that is corrupting and brainwashing the people. So don't come here and tell me I'm some sort of hate monger while religions are out there taking advantage of peoples' tolerance in every way possible so that their religion can control and "own" the world.
Well answer me this then. Why weren't you intolerant of this stuff before you became an atheist?
I mean if a man walks into your house and kills your family is there something different between being and atheist or a religious person?
See the reason I revert it back to YOU (and I mean that in a general sense) is that something changed in YOU. The world is still the same. So whatever changed in you is actually getting outraged at the things you see.
But you saw them before and you didn't seem to care as much? Do you see what I mean?
Why is it when someone becomes and atheist all of a sudden these things are so upsetting? I know for example plenty of missionaries that have been working in war torn parts of the world, I know people that work in Africa with AIDS patients etc.
And these people have been there all along. Your sudden realization that some awful crap is going down in the world is interesting.
Because you are upset and angry as well you should be. But its very personal to you because you are only really upset about the things being done "in the name of religion" but there is persecution of religious people being done and that doesn't seem to bother you so much. There is genocide happening world wide right now that has nothing to do with religion and that doesn't seem to be concerning you so much?
There is a lot of stuff to choose from. So the fact that you are focusing on religion is your issue. Not religious people's.
I mean if a man walks into your house and kills your family is there something different between being and atheist or a religious person?
See the reason I revert it back to YOU (and I mean that in a general sense) is that something changed in YOU. The world is still the same. So whatever changed in you is actually getting outraged at the things you see.
But you saw them before and you didn't seem to care as much? Do you see what I mean?
Why is it when someone becomes and atheist all of a sudden these things are so upsetting? I know for example plenty of missionaries that have been working in war torn parts of the world, I know people that work in Africa with AIDS patients etc.
And these people have been there all along. Your sudden realization that some awful crap is going down in the world is interesting.
Because you are upset and angry as well you should be. But its very personal to you because you are only really upset about the things being done "in the name of religion" but there is persecution of religious people being done and that doesn't seem to bother you so much. There is genocide happening world wide right now that has nothing to do with religion and that doesn't seem to be concerning you so much?
There is a lot of stuff to choose from. So the fact that you are focusing on religion is your issue. Not religious people's.
Mmm... I am trying to remember when you were politically correct, KBA. Sometimes it does get silly, people take to too far. A typo is a typo, why sweat it. Better to get the paper work in and get the cash, then fix the typo.
I don't care if anyone respects my religion or not as long as they respect me as a person.
I don't care if anyone respects my religion or not as long as they respect me as a person.
QUOTE(eight bits @ Oct 14 2007, 11:54 AM)
You cannot civilize the world unilaterally. You can, alas, make the world less civilized unilaterally, by acting badly.
So: treat people well, and go after lousy ideas mercilessly.
Sounds like a plan to me.
So: treat people well, and go after lousy ideas mercilessly.
Sounds like a plan to me.
You pegged the situation very well. Count me in on that.
I don't think religion is even the issue here, it is simply one more excuse for people to act badly behind the cover of a name or brand.
Go after the individual, not the name or brand, whether it be political, religious or anything else...
QUOTE(truethat @ Oct 14 2007, 06:00 PM)
Well answer me this then. Why weren't you intolerant of this stuff before you became an atheist?
I mean if a man walks into your house and kills your family is there something different between being and atheist or a religious person?
See the reason I revert it back to YOU (and I mean that in a general sense) is that something changed in YOU. The world is still the same. So whatever changed in you is actually getting outraged at the things you see.
But you saw them before and you didn't seem to care as much? Do you see what I mean?
Why is it when someone becomes and atheist all of a sudden these things are so upsetting? I know for example plenty of missionaries that have been working in war torn parts of the world, I know people that work in Africa with AIDS patients etc.
And these people have been there all along. Your sudden realization that some awful crap is going down in the world is interesting.
Because you are upset and angry as well you should be. But its very personal to you because you are only really upset about the things being done "in the name of religion" but there is persecution of religious people being done and that doesn't seem to bother you so much. There is genocide happening world wide right now that has nothing to do with religion and that doesn't seem to be concerning you so much?
There is a lot of stuff to choose from. So the fact that you are focusing on religion is your issue. Not religious people's.
I mean if a man walks into your house and kills your family is there something different between being and atheist or a religious person?
See the reason I revert it back to YOU (and I mean that in a general sense) is that something changed in YOU. The world is still the same. So whatever changed in you is actually getting outraged at the things you see.
But you saw them before and you didn't seem to care as much? Do you see what I mean?
Why is it when someone becomes and atheist all of a sudden these things are so upsetting? I know for example plenty of missionaries that have been working in war torn parts of the world, I know people that work in Africa with AIDS patients etc.
And these people have been there all along. Your sudden realization that some awful crap is going down in the world is interesting.
Because you are upset and angry as well you should be. But its very personal to you because you are only really upset about the things being done "in the name of religion" but there is persecution of religious people being done and that doesn't seem to bother you so much. There is genocide happening world wide right now that has nothing to do with religion and that doesn't seem to be concerning you so much?
There is a lot of stuff to choose from. So the fact that you are focusing on religion is your issue. Not religious people's.
I changed because as a Christian I had been taught to be apathetic to these kinds of things. "If they were really religious they wouldn't be doing those things, they're just blaming the religion for their own sick desires". Atheism cured that apathy.
QUOTE(KBA @ Oct 15 2007, 12:52 AM)
Oh please true, spare me. I said in my post that I judge people by their actions and not by their affiliations.
There is a point where tolerance becomes sickening. If a man walks in your house and murders your family, would you still want to be tolerant? Religion has been and will continue to be the cause of death for millions of people around the world. Your brand of tolerance is more of an ignorance that lends a deaf ear to the problems that religion is causing. It's not the people I'm intolerant of, it's the religion that is corrupting and brainwashing the people. So don't come here and tell me I'm some sort of hate monger while religions are out there taking advantage of peoples' tolerance in every way possible so that their religion can control and "own" the world.
There is a point where tolerance becomes sickening. If a man walks in your house and murders your family, would you still want to be tolerant? Religion has been and will continue to be the cause of death for millions of people around the world. Your brand of tolerance is more of an ignorance that lends a deaf ear to the problems that religion is causing. It's not the people I'm intolerant of, it's the religion that is corrupting and brainwashing the people. So don't come here and tell me I'm some sort of hate monger while religions are out there taking advantage of peoples' tolerance in every way possible so that their religion can control and "own" the world.
EVERYONE on the face of this forsaken planet fall into the two categories - Tolerate & intolerance <----you ..me and every other person here falls under BOTH categories
If anyone here claims they are NEVER intolerant of anyone r anything...they are talking out of their rear ends...because each of us show intolerance at some point...we are only human after all
What gets me is WHY people feel they have to explain to others as to WHY they don't wish to tolerate certain things in life...not just religion..it can mean.ANYTHING..gays, drug users, hookers, old people that still have a drivers license lol...people that talk too much when you are trying to read the paper <---who the heck says you MUST tolerate it???
And if and when someone calls me - intolerant ..I NEVER take it as an insult...I just think - yea so what..?? Because i know for a fact the same person that's just called me intolerant is in fact the same, only with different issues..so they are throwing stones at glass houses...
Here is another thing that gets up my nose....is when people say - So you don't believe me?? are you calling me a liar? <----yes I don't believe you and I don't freaking have to believe you...and yes in my eyes it makes you a lair...what are you going to do now? call the cops and have me locked up for being skeptical?? LMAO get the floook outta here!!
QUOTE(KBA @ Oct 15 2007, 01:11 AM)
I changed because as a Christian I had been taught to be apathetic to these kinds of things. "If they were really religious they wouldn't be doing those things, they're just blaming the religion for their own sick desires". Atheism cured that apathy.
Yet we find consistently, that it is religious people who take up these causes and even fight for them. As christians we learn to fight injustice, not become apathetic to injustice.
I could probably name a few people who took the stand against a majority to impose a christian perspective, in some cases they won, in many others, they paid with their lives.
QUOTE(KBA @ Oct 15 2007, 12:11 AM)
I changed because as a Christian I had been taught to be apathetic to these kinds of things. "If they were really religious they wouldn't be doing those things, they're just blaming the religion for their own sick desires". Atheism cured that apathy.
Well you had a bad upbringing then. Because no Christian I know thinks this way.
QUOTE(Jor-el @ Oct 14 2007, 06:15 PM)
Yet we find consistently, that it is religious people who take up these causes and even fight for them. As christians we learn to fight injustice, not become apathetic to injustice.
I could probably name a few people who took the stand against a majority to impose a christian perspective, in some cases they won, in many others, they paid with their lives.
I could probably name a few people who took the stand against a majority to impose a christian perspective, in some cases they won, in many others, they paid with their lives.
You yourself just showed the exact line of thinking I had learned with religion.
QUOTE(Jor-el @ Oct 14 2007, 06:09 PM)
You pegged the situation very well. Count me in on that.
I don't think religion is even the issue here, it is simply one more excuse for people to act badly behind the cover of a name or brand.
Go after the individual, not the name or brand, whether it be political, religious or anything else...
I don't think religion is even the issue here, it is simply one more excuse for people to act badly behind the cover of a name or brand.
Go after the individual, not the name or brand, whether it be political, religious or anything else...
This is a good example of the apathy I'm talking about. But when people are saying "I'll kill you for insulting or disagreeing with my God", or "My religion will take over the world", there IS blame to place on the religion. That kind of thinking completely neglects the source of the problem because religious people do not want to acknowledge the ability to do evil that religion has.
QUOTE
Well you had a bad upbringing then. Because no Christian I know thinks this way.
I have never met a Christian who will accept that their religion played a role in the crusades, witch burnings, the dark ages, and so on. They will ALWAYS say that the people are evil and the religion is just fine. But those people are doing those things in the name of their religion.
QUOTE(truethat @ Oct 15 2007, 01:17 AM)
Well you had a bad upbringing then. Because no Christian I know thinks this way.
I wouldn't go as far as to say - he has had a BAD upbringing...its not his fault he was taught to look at something a different way...but it dont mean his entire upbringing was BAD
No one likes it when they are told they are bad parents...............well...no kid likes to be told they had a BAD upbringing ..works BOTH ways
I have. Loads of em. I think you are projecting your own ignorance about your former faith on others.
I don't know a single Christian who is as narrow minded as you seem to have been prior to your "awakening"
That's why I suggest that this is your own personal issue. YOU were apathetic about the suffering of others because of the way YOU practiced your beliefs.
Now you are trying to punish the religion because of your own issue. Work on yourself and don't worry so much about everyone else.
As Gandhi said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
I don't know a single Christian who is as narrow minded as you seem to have been prior to your "awakening"
That's why I suggest that this is your own personal issue. YOU were apathetic about the suffering of others because of the way YOU practiced your beliefs.
Now you are trying to punish the religion because of your own issue. Work on yourself and don't worry so much about everyone else.
As Gandhi said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
QUOTE(KBA @ Oct 15 2007, 01:20 AM)
You yourself just showed the exact line of thinking I had learned with religion.
That may well be true, but I don't see many people who aren't religious standing up for the weak, so I would prefer to think of it as a duty that has been placed on me to defend them wherever I can.
Even then I would go further, in that it is not merely the christians who defend humane principles, other religions do so as well.
In the specific case of western society, it is an accepted part of history that christianity played a very large role in ending human inequality, from slavery to the simple concept that "all men are created equal".
QUOTE
This is a good example of the apathy I'm talking about. But when people are saying "I'll kill you for insulting or disagreeing with my God", or "My religion will take over the world", there IS blame to place on the religion. That kind of thinking completely neglects the source of the problem because religious people do not want to acknowledge the ability to do evil that religion has.
But if we really look at those affirmations with objective eyes, you will note that they are by and large political statements with a political agenda, cloaked in a religious blanket.
QUOTE
I have never met a Christian who will accept that their religion played a role in the crusades, witch burnings, the dark ages, and so on. They will ALWAYS say that the people are evil in the religion is just fine. But those people are doing those things in the name of their religion.
Oh, then you can't say that anymore. I accept that christianity did play a part in the crusades. It was a religious war afterall. A war between opposing ideals and political desires.
Yet we also see that it was mainly a war of politics between two empires. That the two empires also had two opposing spiritual ideals, was just a nice and convenient fount for recruitment.
QUOTE(KBA @ Oct 15 2007, 01:20 AM)
I have never met a Christian who will accept that their religion played a role in the crusades, witch burnings, the dark ages, and so on. They will ALWAYS say that the people are evil and the religion is just fine. But those people are doing those things in the name of their religion.
Sorry, I felt the need to answer this more completely.
I'm sure you know that religions don't have the monopoly on oppression and genocide. There are quite a few good examples of contemporary societies, where millions have been killed simply in the name of racial purity or even idealistic harmony. I'm sure you don't need the names of those nations for the examples to be clear to you and averyone else.
Comparitvely speaking, death for death, I would say religions don't hold a candle to what atheism can do.
QUOTE(Jor-el @ Oct 14 2007, 06:43 PM)
Comparitvely speaking, death for death, I would say religions don't hold a candle to what atheism can do.
I'd like to get this straight, nobody is killing in the name of atheism. Atheism is not inspiring people to murder. Religion, however, very clearly has teachings that do inspire hate and murder. The deaths you are referring to were carried out in communist societies. If you want an example of a largely non-theistic society that is not communist, look to somewhere like Japan.
Whatever you would like to say about the "modesty" of your religion, tell it to me when people stop dying in the name of God and when your bible no longer makes light of killing and holy war.
QUOTE
I have. Loads of em. I think you are projecting your own ignorance about your former faith on others.
I don't know a single Christian who is as narrow minded as you seem to have been prior to your "awakening"
That's why I suggest that this is your own personal issue. YOU were apathetic about the suffering of others because of the way YOU practiced your beliefs.
Now you are trying to punish the religion because of your own issue. Work on yourself and don't worry so much about everyone else.
As Gandhi said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
I don't know a single Christian who is as narrow minded as you seem to have been prior to your "awakening"
That's why I suggest that this is your own personal issue. YOU were apathetic about the suffering of others because of the way YOU practiced your beliefs.
Now you are trying to punish the religion because of your own issue. Work on yourself and don't worry so much about everyone else.
As Gandhi said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
I would go quote dig for the hundreds of times, just on this forum, in which people have told me that people who commit crimes in the name of religion are just using their religion as a scapegoat for blame; however transparent of an excuse that is (There is one already in this very topic), but it would obviously not matter to you. It's not like I willingly chose my practice of religion, I was raised into it. There's nothing I could have done about that, except for leaving the religion, which I've done.
QUOTE(KBA @ Oct 15 2007, 01:37 AM)
I'd like to get this straight, nobody is killing in the name of atheism. Atheism is not inspiring people to murder. Religion, however, very clearly has teachings that do inspire hate and murder. The deaths you are referring to were carried out in communist societies. If you want an example of a largely non-theistic society that is not communist, look to somewhere like Japan.
Whatever you would like to say about the "modesty" of your religion, tell it to me when people stop dying in the name of God and when your bible no longer makes light of killing and holy war.
I would go quote dig for the hundreds of times, just on this forum, in which people have told me that people who commit crimes in the name of religion are just using their religion as a scapegoat for blame; however transparent of an excuse that is (There is one already in this very topic), but it would obviously not matter to you. It's not like I willingly chose my practice of religion, I was raised into it. There's nothing I could have done about that, except for leaving the religion, which I've done.
Whatever you would like to say about the "modesty" of your religion, tell it to me when people stop dying in the name of God and when your bible no longer makes light of killing and holy war.
I would go quote dig for the hundreds of times, just on this forum, in which people have told me that people who commit crimes in the name of religion are just using their religion as a scapegoat for blame; however transparent of an excuse that is (There is one already in this very topic), but it would obviously not matter to you. It's not like I willingly chose my practice of religion, I was raised into it. There's nothing I could have done about that, except for leaving the religion, which I've done.
And they would be right. Just as you used your religion as an excuse to be apathetic. That was your choice.
It doesn't represent the religion. It represents YOU.
I'm not condemning you. Everyone has their own awakening at their own time. But you are wasting yourself on worrying about the enlightenment of others.
If this is where your path is taking you then its almost backwards. Go forward with your new awareness and inspire rather than condemn.
QUOTE(KBA @ Oct 14 2007, 01:16 PM)
I would agree I guess, although in your first example it was still the blame of the other person. This was what I was talking about.. should I be politically correct because other people don't like what I might have to say? Well if it's something like "Merry Christmas", then it's definitely their fault for getting offended... do they expect people to be psychic and just know that they are part of a tiny religion which doesn't celebrate Christmas? And of course, in a professional atmosphere, you have to think about things like that.. but in just social affairs, those aren't the type of people I'd want to surround myself with in the first place; but that's just me.
Ok, here's the deal... it was ignorant of me to ASSUME that they were christian. They were jewish (hardly obscure) and celebrate their own holiday at that time of year. Same as muslims do. Even pagans have their festivals for mid-winter, there are even holidays hindus celebrate. It was insensitive and ignorant for me to say it. I deserved to be corrected.
Point being, I don't have to be insensitive, nor should I have assumed... basically I wanted to be nice, and sometimes the best intentions are paved with crap and thoughtlessness... I should have just said happy holidays.
Why should I force "Christmas" on a huge number of people who don't celebrate it? That's where PC-ness comes in. People complain that "Christianity" is forced on them... then when we go "PC" and try not to force it, like you wanted, then we're PC and that's bad too? I guess there's just no winning.
QUOTE(KBA @ Oct 14 2007, 06:32 AM)
It's been quite a while now since I left my religion for atheism.. and in that time I've done a great deal of learning, debating, and discussing on the topic of religion. And it's been a productive experience, don't get me wrong, but by now.. I'm getting tired of being politically correct.
Before I continue and start a witch hunt, allow me to preface the meat of this topic with a short analysis of religion. Religion may well be almost as old as man. It's certainly as old as man's recorded history. And it's become a bustling establishment. There are thousands of religions; from fairies to spirits to godmen, everything under the sun is held as a very firm reality to someone out there. And every religion is "the" religion, the one religion that truly understands and teaches the nature of all this spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
On that point alone, religion wouldn't bother me. Pick your poison, if you want to believe in an afterlife it's not something I'll concern myself with; because we can all do what we want to do, and who am I to interfere with harmless things like self-truths? I really would like if it were that simple.. If we could all just get along on the same earth and accept that people are going to have different religions. The trouble is, it's never that simple with human beings. No, because almost every religion needs your help to popularize itself. I guess God doesn't really feel like delivering some informational pamphlets to explain himself, no; he wants word of mouth conversion. You have to become a tool for God if you want to be of any use for your religion.. and you have to try and convince as many people as possible that they're misguided and you've had some sort of epiphany that they should also have.
And once again, I could live with that. I'll listen to what your religion's about, and then I'll get on with my life; no hard feelings, right? It's really just doesn't suit me to be another tool in the shed. And ideally, from this point on we could go our separate ways with our own ideals and beliefs and that would be that. Wouldn't it be wonderful?
Of course, all too often in the real world, that's not how it happens. It's not enough to just leave people to their own devices, some people get angry when Billy Bob doesn't like their god or prophets. Some people start using force.. because in some religions, it's standard policy to try and enlighten the sh** out of you. This is when religion becomes more than just something we politely discuss over tea. It's when people begin to lose their liberties, their possessions, and in many cases, their lives... over whose invisible macho man is better.
And no, you don't need to fill me in. I've been informed before that those people are not real representatives of their god. They're not actually trying to follow the teachings of their religion, even though they can always tell you in an instant exactly where their religion says they should do what they're doing. Yeah, I've heard that they're just using their religion as an excuse to murder.. because everybody understands you when you throw out the "God told me to cut Jimmy up" line.
So please, can anyone tell me, why should I respect religion? Is it those people who hate and murder because their holy book told them to? Is it the people who shove the blame fully on the person and make every excuse possible for the book, which is obviously the motivator for those people to commit their crimes? Why on earth am I supposed to respect the thing that has signed the death warrants of countless masses of men, women and children?
I'm tired of being politically correct about religion, because it has fully demonstrated that it will take advantage of every last scrap of respect it is given, only to ask for more and more with puppy dog eyes. Religion will buy a gun from you, shoot you and then rob its money back from the corpse... and it has proven this far too many times. It's not about harmless fantasies anymore when people are dying.
I don't mean to say that all belief and religion is bad. I'm not trying to express an inherent hate for religious people. I still judge every person by their actions alone and not by their affiliations. But we are living in turbulent times, and they are times when religious struggle could potentially place myself and everyone I know in grave danger... so in my opinion, the time for excusing mistakes and letting bygones be bygones are over with religion... and the time for political correctness has long since passed. I don't want to come off as angry, but I can't lie.. I am angry. While I sit peacefully in my home and type this out, there are people all around the world who are feeling the merciless nature of extreme religion, and that is something to be very angry about.
Before I continue and start a witch hunt, allow me to preface the meat of this topic with a short analysis of religion. Religion may well be almost as old as man. It's certainly as old as man's recorded history. And it's become a bustling establishment. There are thousands of religions; from fairies to spirits to godmen, everything under the sun is held as a very firm reality to someone out there. And every religion is "the" religion, the one religion that truly understands and teaches the nature of all this spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
On that point alone, religion wouldn't bother me. Pick your poison, if you want to believe in an afterlife it's not something I'll concern myself with; because we can all do what we want to do, and who am I to interfere with harmless things like self-truths? I really would like if it were that simple.. If we could all just get along on the same earth and accept that people are going to have different religions. The trouble is, it's never that simple with human beings. No, because almost every religion needs your help to popularize itself. I guess God doesn't really feel like delivering some informational pamphlets to explain himself, no; he wants word of mouth conversion. You have to become a tool for God if you want to be of any use for your religion.. and you have to try and convince as many people as possible that they're misguided and you've had some sort of epiphany that they should also have.
And once again, I could live with that. I'll listen to what your religion's about, and then I'll get on with my life; no hard feelings, right? It's really just doesn't suit me to be another tool in the shed. And ideally, from this point on we could go our separate ways with our own ideals and beliefs and that would be that. Wouldn't it be wonderful?
Of course, all too often in the real world, that's not how it happens. It's not enough to just leave people to their own devices, some people get angry when Billy Bob doesn't like their god or prophets. Some people start using force.. because in some religions, it's standard policy to try and enlighten the sh** out of you. This is when religion becomes more than just something we politely discuss over tea. It's when people begin to lose their liberties, their possessions, and in many cases, their lives... over whose invisible macho man is better.
And no, you don't need to fill me in. I've been informed before that those people are not real representatives of their god. They're not actually trying to follow the teachings of their religion, even though they can always tell you in an instant exactly where their religion says they should do what they're doing. Yeah, I've heard that they're just using their religion as an excuse to murder.. because everybody understands you when you throw out the "God told me to cut Jimmy up" line.
So please, can anyone tell me, why should I respect religion? Is it those people who hate and murder because their holy book told them to? Is it the people who shove the blame fully on the person and make every excuse possible for the book, which is obviously the motivator for those people to commit their crimes? Why on earth am I supposed to respect the thing that has signed the death warrants of countless masses of men, women and children?
I'm tired of being politically correct about religion, because it has fully demonstrated that it will take advantage of every last scrap of respect it is given, only to ask for more and more with puppy dog eyes. Religion will buy a gun from you, shoot you and then rob its money back from the corpse... and it has proven this far too many times. It's not about harmless fantasies anymore when people are dying.
I don't mean to say that all belief and religion is bad. I'm not trying to express an inherent hate for religious people. I still judge every person by their actions alone and not by their affiliations. But we are living in turbulent times, and they are times when religious struggle could potentially place myself and everyone I know in grave danger... so in my opinion, the time for excusing mistakes and letting bygones be bygones are over with religion... and the time for political correctness has long since passed. I don't want to come off as angry, but I can't lie.. I am angry. While I sit peacefully in my home and type this out, there are people all around the world who are feeling the merciless nature of extreme religion, and that is something to be very angry about.
No one knows,we will just see it happening. Religion is a frame of mind.
QUOTE(MissMelsWell @ Oct 14 2007, 10:04 PM)
Ok, here's the deal... it was ignorant of me to ASSUME that they were christian. They were jewish (hardly obscure) and celebrate their own holiday at that time of year. Same as muslims do. Even pagans have their festivals for mid-winter, there are even holidays hindus celebrate. It was insensitive and ignorant for me to say it. I deserved to be corrected.
Point being, I don't have to be insensitive, nor should I have assumed... basically I wanted to be nice, and sometimes the best intentions are paved with crap and thoughtlessness... I should have just said happy holidays.
Why should I force "Christmas" on a huge number of people who don't celebrate it? That's where PC-ness comes in. People complain that "Christianity" is forced on them... then when we go "PC" and try not to force it, like you wanted, then we're PC and that's bad too? I guess there's just no winning.
Point being, I don't have to be insensitive, nor should I have assumed... basically I wanted to be nice, and sometimes the best intentions are paved with crap and thoughtlessness... I should have just said happy holidays.
Why should I force "Christmas" on a huge number of people who don't celebrate it? That's where PC-ness comes in. People complain that "Christianity" is forced on them... then when we go "PC" and try not to force it, like you wanted, then we're PC and that's bad too? I guess there's just no winning.
I'm saying that over things like that, people just need to calm down. If you feel offended because someone with good intentions wished you a happy holiday that, in a cultural context you would be likely to celebrate, than what's the big deal? I'm trying to suggest that people have gotten so expectant of PC and politeness to an unnecessary level such as this, and it's annoying to me. If I happened to be in Israel in the holiday season and someone told me "Happy Hanukkah!" It wouldn't offend me at all. I'd probably just say it right back.
And I do believe it is bad to be too PC, because that creates unreasonable and unwarranted demand for it... such as being aghast when someone doesn't automatically assume you're part of a group of 15 million people (Very obscure, out of 6.5 billion) who don't celebrate the local norm which is Christmas.
There's a general phrase that's polite and considerate for everyone that you can say and you won't feel uncomfortable and neither will they. Why wouldn't you use that "politically correct" phrase?
Honestly? They probably would not have got their panties in a bunch, except that they'd obviously been shopping at the mall next to the restaurant, braving the holiday crowds, all their senses assulted by christmas trees, santas, nativity sets... I don't blame them for coming into eat a nice quiet lunch and being mad at being wished Merry Christmas... probably didn't help that the restaurant was called "Schwartz Brothers" ... while the company is religion neutral, they ARE under jewish ownership (they do supply Starbucks with baked goods or baked goods recipes).
Oddly, Starbucks was started by Howard Schultz... yep, he's Jewish, but he still insists on selling "Christmas Blend" because it's good marketing. So there's someone going against PC-ness... interesting enough.
It's a catch-22.. you have to use your common sense and try to do and say what's right and for the right reasons... PC or not... just think about it before you open your flap. That's all I'm trying to point out.
Honestly? They probably would not have got their panties in a bunch, except that they'd obviously been shopping at the mall next to the restaurant, braving the holiday crowds, all their senses assulted by christmas trees, santas, nativity sets... I don't blame them for coming into eat a nice quiet lunch and being mad at being wished Merry Christmas... probably didn't help that the restaurant was called "Schwartz Brothers" ... while the company is religion neutral, they ARE under jewish ownership (they do supply Starbucks with baked goods or baked goods recipes).
Oddly, Starbucks was started by Howard Schultz... yep, he's Jewish, but he still insists on selling "Christmas Blend" because it's good marketing. So there's someone going against PC-ness... interesting enough.
It's a catch-22.. you have to use your common sense and try to do and say what's right and for the right reasons... PC or not... just think about it before you open your flap. That's all I'm trying to point out.
KBA, you're only fifteen years old and you're already an Atheist?! Geez. At your age, I was more interested in trying to form psi balls and play Pokemon games, lol. At the same time, I guess that's kind of sad for me. 
Nevertheless, I think it's great that you are starting to open your eyes. I'm not a believer or an atheist at all. Call me ignorant, but I can live life without staying true to anything. I respect other peoples' religions or ideas and that's it. Some people need to cling onto something like religion to give meaning to their lives whilst others necessarily don't. Basically, I'm saying stuff that has been said before except it's worded differently. Just my two cents of course!
Nevertheless, I think it's great that you are starting to open your eyes. I'm not a believer or an atheist at all. Call me ignorant, but I can live life without staying true to anything. I respect other peoples' religions or ideas and that's it. Some people need to cling onto something like religion to give meaning to their lives whilst others necessarily don't. Basically, I'm saying stuff that has been said before except it's worded differently. Just my two cents of course!
I don't like religion but certain forms of spirituality are good (and that can include christianity & others).
And when someone prays at the table I bow my head and close my eyes because I respect THAT PERSON.
Prayer is good as long as people don't become passive in overcoming problems personally & on a global level.
I "hate" certain beliefs. Those that harm or impose on others- otherwise it can be a good thing "for some people".
Becky's great statement still sticks in my mind-"Beliefs create behaviours " (or was it suprasheri ?)...so yes to a certain extent what others believe is our business too.
Many believers are aggressively (not all) trying to get us & our children to believe in things that there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence for !
So we are fighting back and spreading skepticism & critical thinking - and I agree with Becky that we all exhibit some form of intolerance which is a necessary evil/blessing sometimes.
We aren't out to have you executed for KFC'sake !
Our family members don't agree with all our beliefs either but we still love each other so what's the problem ??
You can't put all Atheists in one pot just like you can't do it with believers ...we all are very different.
And when someone prays at the table I bow my head and close my eyes because I respect THAT PERSON.
Prayer is good as long as people don't become passive in overcoming problems personally & on a global level.
I "hate" certain beliefs. Those that harm or impose on others- otherwise it can be a good thing "for some people".
Becky's great statement still sticks in my mind-"Beliefs create behaviours " (or was it suprasheri ?)...so yes to a certain extent what others believe is our business too.
Many believers are aggressively (not all) trying to get us & our children to believe in things that there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence for !
So we are fighting back and spreading skepticism & critical thinking - and I agree with Becky that we all exhibit some form of intolerance which is a necessary evil/blessing sometimes.
We aren't out to have you executed for KFC'sake !
Our family members don't agree with all our beliefs either but we still love each other so what's the problem ??
You can't put all Atheists in one pot just like you can't do it with believers ...we all are very different.
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Oct 15 2007, 12:01 AM)
I don't like religion but certain forms of spirituality are good (and that can include christianity & others).
And when someone prays at the table I bow my head and close my eyes because I respect THAT PERSON.
Prayer is good as long as people don't become passive in overcoming problems personally & on a global level.
I "hate" certain beliefs. Those that harm or impose on others- otherwise it can be a good thing "for some people".
Becky's great statement still sticks in my mind-"Beliefs create behaviours " (or was it suprasheri ?)...so yes to a certain extent what others believe is our business too.
Many believers are aggressively (not all) trying to get us & our children to believe in things that there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence for !
So we are fighting back and spreading skepticism & critical thinking - and I agree with Becky that we all exhibit some form of intolerance which is a necessary evil/blessing sometimes.
We aren't out to have you executed for KFC'sake !
Our family members don't agree with all our beliefs either but we still love each other so what's the problem ??
You can't put all Atheists in one pot just like you can't do it with believers ...we all are very different.
And when someone prays at the table I bow my head and close my eyes because I respect THAT PERSON.
Prayer is good as long as people don't become passive in overcoming problems personally & on a global level.
I "hate" certain beliefs. Those that harm or impose on others- otherwise it can be a good thing "for some people".
Becky's great statement still sticks in my mind-"Beliefs create behaviours " (or was it suprasheri ?)...so yes to a certain extent what others believe is our business too.
Many believers are aggressively (not all) trying to get us & our children to believe in things that there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence for !
So we are fighting back and spreading skepticism & critical thinking - and I agree with Becky that we all exhibit some form of intolerance which is a necessary evil/blessing sometimes.
We aren't out to have you executed for KFC'sake !
Our family members don't agree with all our beliefs either but we still love each other so what's the problem ??
You can't put all Atheists in one pot just like you can't do it with believers ...we all are very different.
A good way to put it.
I'm not saying with this topic that I want to be rude and in your face about everything, but I am saying that I'm tired of all the things religion is allowed to get away with simply because it's an age old taboo.. I'm tired of the social fear that many people experience towards speaking out against religion because it has been intimidating them all their lives. There is a necessary limit to tolerance and there are times when saying "No, that's not okay" is necessary.. and I feel like in this world today people are either completely apathetic to the problems religion is causing or they are not wanting any communication at all, only calling for wars and invasions and the like.
I guess I'm trying to look for a balance here, because I do realize that I have been overly tolerant of many things that happen even in my personal life thanks to religion.. and I'm trying to suggest that more people do the same, and speak their mind if something is wrong, not just on anonymous internet forums but in real life... because all this political correctness is just sending the image that the masses can be used and trampled on by religion.
Well I'm not politically correct.I try to be sensitive to others.However this PC thing gets out of hand it even seems they are trying to rewrite historybecause they are scared to offend some group.
As far as religion is concerned.Yes,The Catholic Church burnt people at the stake,massacred the Cathars ,etc. However,there are many idividual ones who
tried to help their fellow man.Like the American,St.Katherine Drexel.She belonged to the Drexel banking family of Philadelphia.She founded the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrement back in the 1880s or 1890s to work with blacks and native americans at a time when they were discriminated against and few people gave any thought to their welfare,using her money to build schools,churches,and other institutions to help them.
St.John Bosco ,St.Joseph Benedict Cottelengo,St.Marguerite De Youville,and others founded religious communities to help the poor and marginalized in their society in their times.St.Louis Strattman was a wealthy Hungarian nobleman who used his money and skills as a medical man to provide free care to the needy.His called in Hungary the Doctor of the Poor,and lived in the Twentith century.
There are good and bad eggs in all belief systems,even among athiests. And yes,people have critizied religion and the Church in the past and will do so in the future.
QUOTE(KBA @ Oct 14 2007, 10:32 AM)
So please, can anyone tell me, why should I respect religion? Is it those people who hate and murder because their holy book told them to? Is it the people who shove the blame fully on the person and make every excuse possible for the book, which is obviously the motivator for those people to commit their crimes? Why on earth am I supposed to respect the thing that has signed the death warrants of countless masses of men, women and children?
I'm tired of being politically correct about religion, because it has fully demonstrated that it will take advantage of every last scrap of respect it is given, only to ask for more and more with puppy dog eyes. Religion will buy a gun from you, shoot you and then rob its money back from the corpse... and it has proven this far too many times. It's not about harmless fantasies anymore when people are dying.
I don't mean to say that all belief and religion is bad. I'm not trying to express an inherent hate for religious people. I still judge every person by their actions alone and not by their affiliations. But we are living in turbulent times, and they are times when religious struggle could potentially place myself and everyone I know in grave danger... so in my opinion, the time for excusing mistakes and letting bygones be bygones are over with religion... and the time for political correctness has long since passed. I don't want to come off as angry, but I can't lie.. I am angry. While I sit peacefully in my home and type this out, there are people all around the world who are feeling the merciless nature of extreme religion, and that is something to be very angry about.
I'm tired of being politically correct about religion, because it has fully demonstrated that it will take advantage of every last scrap of respect it is given, only to ask for more and more with puppy dog eyes. Religion will buy a gun from you, shoot you and then rob its money back from the corpse... and it has proven this far too many times. It's not about harmless fantasies anymore when people are dying.
I don't mean to say that all belief and religion is bad. I'm not trying to express an inherent hate for religious people. I still judge every person by their actions alone and not by their affiliations. But we are living in turbulent times, and they are times when religious struggle could potentially place myself and everyone I know in grave danger... so in my opinion, the time for excusing mistakes and letting bygones be bygones are over with religion... and the time for political correctness has long since passed. I don't want to come off as angry, but I can't lie.. I am angry. While I sit peacefully in my home and type this out, there are people all around the world who are feeling the merciless nature of extreme religion, and that is something to be very angry about.
What a great post!
I can't give you an answer. I can only respond to your level of disgust and frustration with a loud "ME TOO". I'm sick and tired of having to pretend to respect every traditional religious belief no matter how obviously self-serving, political, or just plain idiotic it is.
Person A studies something for years, examines all the data at length and decides that A is probably true. Person B jumps up and down in politically correct outrage and says, "B should be accepted as equally true because.... I Believe it". We're all supposed to demonstrate how spiritual and culturally sensitive we are by putting Person B's ideas on the same level as Person A's. What a crock.
An example in my immediate family is the subject of Israel. I wish I had the guts to stand up at the dinner table during a family reunion and say, "Attention everyone. God/Allah doesn't have a chosen people that he likes better than the rest of mankind. Furthermore, he doesn't reward his 'favorites' by dishing out prize pieces of real estate. What a racist, barbaric idea." The chaos and bitterness that would ensue would be so extreme that I would never say this at a family reunion. And yet, it is as clear as day to me that this obsession with being "God's chosen" is basically a superstitious enshrining of some Bronze Age land grab. There I've said it... how politically incorrect.
QUOTE(KBA @ Oct 14 2007, 07:20 PM)
*snip*
I have never met a Christian who will accept that their religion played a role in the crusades, witch burnings, the dark ages, and so on. They will ALWAYS say that the people are evil and the religion is just fine. But those people are doing those things in the name of their religion.
I have never met a Christian who will accept that their religion played a role in the crusades, witch burnings, the dark ages, and so on. They will ALWAYS say that the people are evil and the religion is just fine. But those people are doing those things in the name of their religion.
Really? I think that's amazing. I mean, there is quite simply no way around the fact, is there?
I really wish UM would take the religious forum off this website, I'm getting sick of hearing the same arguments over and over again. Every couple days its always a post that says, "If you believe in a religion your stupid." I don't see why everyone has to share their views on the subject to get people to believe them. I myself believe in god but heck do you see me flaming my beliefs? It would probably be for the best if everyone kept their religious views to themselves and not get into the same debate everyday. Nothing is gonna change until someone gets absolute proof and who knows what thats gonna take.
QUOTE(raoulduke666 @ Oct 15 2007, 05:11 PM)
I really wish UM would take the religious forum off this website, I'm getting sick of hearing the same arguments over and over again. Every couple days its always a post that says, "If you believe in a religion your stupid." I don't see why everyone has to share their views on the subject to get people to believe them. I myself believe in god but heck do you see me flaming my beliefs? It would probably be for the best if everyone kept their religious views to themselves and not get into the same debate everyday. Nothing is gonna change until someone gets absolute proof and who knows what thats gonna take.
I (respectfully) disagree. I think we have a wide assortment of people. We've got religious people who think science should be incorporated into religion. We've got religious people who see science as a form of religion. We've got atheists who respect spirituality. We've got atheists who see spirituality as a cop-out. I think figuring out the relationship between science and religion is one of the crucial things we have to do to keep ourselves in line spiritually without rejecting modern progress.
QUOTE(Siara @ Oct 15 2007, 06:25 PM)
I (respectfully) disagree. I think we have a wide assortment of people. We've got religious people who think science should be incorporated into religion. We've got religious people who see science as a form of religion. We've got atheists who respect spirituality. We've got atheists who see spirituality as a cop-out. I think figuring out the relationship between science and religion is one of the crucial things we have to do to keep ourselves in line spiritually without rejecting modern progress.
And you have summed this all up rather well
QUOTE(LiQuiD_FuSioN @ Oct 15 2007, 06:38 AM)
KBA, you're only fifteen years old and you're already an Atheist?! Geez. At your age, I was more interested in trying to form psi balls and play Pokemon games, lol. At the same time, I guess that's kind of sad for me.
He is 15 but very bright for a 15 yr old.......A lot of 14-16 yr olds take up religion..just in the same way a lot of 14 -16 yr olds DROP religion and search elsewhere ...I was one of them..at 14/15 i made up my own mind..as a child I was told to follow Jesus as a catholic, to believe in the bible and accept that christ was in fact the savior...I didn't have a choice. When I was in around 14 or 15 after an argument with my dad on going to church, he then said - Tell you what...why don't you find your OWN path" ..so I did and have stuck to it till present day
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Oct 15 2007, 07:01 AM)
Becky's great statement still sticks in my mind-"Beliefs create behaviours " (or was it suprasheri ?)...
That would be Sheri lol not me..I would dare say it's part of Sheri's trade mark on religion and people lol
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Oct 15 2007, 07:01 AM)
So we are fighting back and spreading skepticism & critical thinking - and I agree with Becky that we all exhibit some form of intolerance which is a necessary evil/blessing sometimes.
Saying you don't wish to tolerate something, doesn't make you wrong...I will go on record for this one lol...only because I KNOW that everyone shows intolerance, even those that only seem to look out for people to hear them say they don't like a faith or a race of people <--people that do this are in fact being intolerant, but too blind to notice
QUOTE(momentarylapseofreason @ Oct 15 2007, 07:01 AM)
Our family members don't agree with all our beliefs either but we still love each other so what's the problem ??
You got that one right lol...even us as parents...if our child takes up a religious faith that we don't agree with...we may not wish to tolerate it..but we can't stop loving them, but a lot of us tend to forget that everyone is entitled to their OWN choices..after all weren't we?? We can't stop loving them regardless
QUOTE(raoulduke666 @ Oct 15 2007, 06:11 PM)
I really wish UM would take the religious forum off this website, I'm getting sick of hearing the same arguments over and over again. Every couple days its always a post that says, "If you believe in a religion your stupid." I don't see why everyone has to share their views on the subject to get people to believe them.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!!
QUOTE(raoulduke666 @ Oct 15 2007, 06:11 PM)
. I myself believe in god but heck do you see me flaming my beliefs?
If you flamed your OWN beliefs then you aren't a follower of God...and I don't see people FLAME their OWN beliefs.
...I have seen them flame OTHER beliefs <---world of difference
QUOTE(raoulduke666 @ Oct 15 2007, 07:11 PM)
I really wish UM would take the religious forum off this website, I'm getting sick of hearing the same arguments over and over again. Every couple days its always a post that says, "If you believe in a religion your stupid." I don't see why everyone has to share their views on the subject to get people to believe them. I myself believe in god but heck do you see me flaming my beliefs? It would probably be for the best if everyone kept their religious views to themselves and not get into the same debate everyday. Nothing is gonna change until someone gets absolute proof and who knows what thats gonna take.
Everything should be questioned and discussed. The things that are "unpleasant" usually need to be discussed the most just like in a marriage.
Lack of communication can have a much worse effect long term.
Feelings don't just blow away like the wind. I think some have been silent too long and the pressure builds as in a kettle-then explodes.
Just like we should question and scrutinize our governments or those who are running the show.
We all affect each other. And no one is forcing you to discuss these things nor read these posts. This is a safe atmosphere to do it in.
Were not "expecting change" we just want some people to "carefully & honestly consider" why they believe what they believe and why some of us can't
believe the same.
Silence can be deadly
Basically threads like these remind me of people venting about not being PC about the situation of the Blacks in the country or some other type of excuse for admitting the "reality" of what people are REALLY like based on the OPs narrow minded experience.
Google I'm tired of being Politically Correct and see what you can find, you'll probably agree with most of them as they are not terrible.
http://www.violentacres.com/archives/116/i...cal-correctness
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/22/national...t&position=
http://www.quizilla.com/users/PreppyGal23/...elieve_in_god./
The first one is by a Christian who is tired of having to deal with Gay people and watch what they say. They say "oh heck who cares if we use the "N" word" and then spells it out for good measure.
The second one is about a teddy bear company that used "Crazy for You" and teddies in straighjackets for a Valentines Promotion and it offended Mentally Ill people.
The third one is about Christians tired of having to side step Jesus and God because of others.
Tolerance is what it is. You either use it or you don't. And tolerance is about allowing others to live their life as they choose, and AND to be public about it as long as it doesn't step on others.
Now all this commentary towards religion reminds me very much of the attitudes that people have towards homosexuals.
Its fine what they do in the privacy of their own homes but I don't want to have to see it.
On the surface that doesn't seem so bad right. Except in this country homosexuals can not be open about the way they embrace one another. They can't give each other a big kiss in the airport. They can't stroll around in the fall with their arms around each other.
Etc etc. etc.
And if they soon get the freedom to, then down the line someone is going to start a thread just like this one. Why? Because it makes them mad that someone can be so HAPPY and FULLFILLED with something they personally oppose.
So like Homophobes, Christianphobes, try to turn Christianity into something vile and ugly and wrong. Something intolerable.
Immature people expect the world to reflect life as they prefer it. Mature people recognize that it won't do that. You learn to be PC which is not a term about how you act in the world but rather how you keep your bias out of the public arena.
I no more want to listen to a person ranting about being intolerant about religion than I do about people protesting Brown versus the Board of Ed or the Westboro Baptist Church showing up with their signs.
Intolerance is intolerance.
Google I'm tired of being Politically Correct and see what you can find, you'll probably agree with most of them as they are not terrible.
http://www.violentacres.com/archives/116/i...cal-correctness
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/22/national...t&position=
http://www.quizilla.com/users/PreppyGal23/...elieve_in_god./
The first one is by a Christian who is tired of having to deal with Gay people and watch what they say. They say "oh heck who cares if we use the "N" word" and then spells it out for good measure.
The second one is about a teddy bear company that used "Crazy for You" and teddies in straighjackets for a Valentines Promotion and it offended Mentally Ill people.
The third one is about Christians tired of having to side step Jesus and God because of others.
Tolerance is what it is. You either use it or you don't. And tolerance is about allowing others to live their life as they choose, and AND to be public about it as long as it doesn't step on others.
Now all this commentary towards religion reminds me very much of the attitudes that people have towards homosexuals.
Its fine what they do in the privacy of their own homes but I don't want to have to see it.
On the surface that doesn't seem so bad right. Except in this country homosexuals can not be open about the way they embrace one another. They can't give each other a big kiss in the airport. They can't stroll around in the fall with their arms around each other.
Etc etc. etc.
And if they soon get the freedom to, then down the line someone is going to start a thread just like this one. Why? Because it makes them mad that someone can be so HAPPY and FULLFILLED with something they personally oppose.
So like Homophobes, Christianphobes, try to turn Christianity into something vile and ugly and wrong. Something intolerable.
Immature people expect the world to reflect life as they prefer it. Mature people recognize that it won't do that. You learn to be PC which is not a term about how you act in the world but rather how you keep your bias out of the public arena.
I no more want to listen to a person ranting about being intolerant about religion than I do about people protesting Brown versus the Board of Ed or the Westboro Baptist Church showing up with their signs.
Intolerance is intolerance.
QUOTE(truethat @ Oct 15 2007, 06:38 PM)
Immature people expect the world to reflect life as they prefer it. Mature people recognize that it won't do that. You learn to be PC which is not a term about how you act in the world but rather how you keep your bias out of the public arena.
I no more want to listen to a person ranting about being intolerant about religion than I do about people protesting Brown versus the Board of Ed or the Westboro Baptist Church showing up with their signs.
Intolerance is intolerance.
I no more want to listen to a person ranting about being intolerant about religion than I do about people protesting Brown versus the Board of Ed or the Westboro Baptist Church showing up with their signs.
Intolerance is intolerance.
This post implies that being politically correct is equivalent to being tolerant and not being politically correct is intolerant. This strikes me as a simplistic point of view because political correctness is just as inflexible and self-righteous as the points of view it tries to stifle. On any issue we all know what the politically correct stance is. By contrast we also know the politically incorrect stance-- that which can not be said if you want to receive the PC seal of approval of "educated","enlightened"or best of all, "tolerant".
Accusing someone else of being intolerant is always self incriminating because the term implies that 1)intolerance is bad 2)the speaker is intolerant of the intolerant person's point of view. Therefore the speaker himself is bad and his statement is questionable.
QUOTE(Harmon-E Cherry @ Oct 15 2007, 08:58 PM)
This post implies that being politically correct is equivalent to being tolerant and not being politically correct is intolerant. This strikes me as a simplistic point of view because political correctness is just as inflexible and self-righteous as the points of view it tries to stifle. On any issue we all know what the politically correct stance is. By contrast we also know the politically incorrect stance-- that which can not be said if you want to receive the PC seal of approval of "educated","enlightened"or best of all, "tolerant".
Accusing someone else of being intolerant is always self incriminating because the term implies that 1)intolerance is bad 2)the speaker is intolerant of the intolerant person's point of view. Therefore the speaker himself is bad and his statement is questionable.
Accusing someone else of being intolerant is always self incriminating because the term implies that 1)intolerance is bad 2)the speaker is intolerant of the intolerant person's point of view. Therefore the speaker himself is bad and his statement is questionable.
That's right. It's about honesty not intentionally insulting or hurting people. BIG DIFFERENCE !
QUOTE(Harmon-E Cherry @ Oct 15 2007, 06:58 PM)
This post implies that being politically correct is equivalent to being tolerant and not being politically correct is intolerant. This strikes me as a simplistic point of view because political correctness is just as inflexible and self-righteous as the points of view it tries to stifle. On any issue we all know what the politically correct stance is. By contrast we also know the politically incorrect stance-- that which can not be said if you want to receive the PC seal of approval of "educated","enlightened"or best of all, "tolerant".
Accusing someone else of being intolerant is always self incriminating because the term implies that 1)intolerance is bad 2)the speaker is intolerant of the intolerant person's point of view. Therefore the speaker himself is bad and his statement is questionable.
Accusing someone else of being intolerant is always self incriminating because the term implies that 1)intolerance is bad 2)the speaker is intolerant of the intolerant person's point of view. Therefore the speaker himself is bad and his statement is questionable.
Self justifying rhetoric is what it is. Starting a conversation with "I'm tired of being PC" what makes it intolerant.
Stating what you'd like to say is being autonomous. Whining about what you are not allowed to say is abdicating authority over your own life.
On any issue we don't all know what the PC stance is. What is the political correct stance on prayer in school for example?
It depends on the issue and the people having the problem. If the prayer is Muslim Prayer during Ramadan, its politically incorrect to not allow it.
quick example here http://brain-terminal.com/posts/2005/09/07...nly-for-muslims
http://www.becketfund.org/index.php/article/453.html
As I stated earlier, when you are limited in your life experience you tend to see things only in how they effect your life.
And using the phrase "the speaker is bad" is kind of childish in my opinion. No one is BAD or GOOD. that's couching things in black and white and also characteristic of limited experience.
WOW !!
QUOTE(truethat @ Oct 15 2007, 07:11 PM)
On any issue we don't all know what the PC stance is. What is the political correct stance on prayer in school for example?
It depends on the issue and the people having the problem. If the prayer is Muslim Prayer during Ramadan, its politically incorrect to not allow it.
It depends on the issue and the people having the problem. If the prayer is Muslim Prayer during Ramadan, its politically incorrect to not allow it.
I disagree. We DO know what the PC stance is. According to PC dogma the oppressed person is incapable of being bigotted because being bigotted implies that you are in the power position. This is why it's PC to say "White people suck". It's not PC to say "black people suck" because they are the underdogs. Black people who say white people suck are not prejudiced because they are not in power. (when I was in college I had a black professor from Harvard lecture his white students on why black people like him couldn't be prejudiced because they didn't have power. The fact that he was grading us never entered the argument.)
Answering your question about school prayer: Having Christian school prayer is not PC because Christians are the oppressors. Having meditation is more PC because it includes "disenfranchized" segments of the population.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The least powerful person gets to hurl the insults. How do you calculating your powerlessness?
start with 0
add 1 if you're a woman
add 1 if you're black, don't do anything if you're Asian, subtract 1 if your white
add 1 if you belong to an esoteric religion that isn't known in your home country, don't do anything if you're atheist, subtract 1 if you're Christian
etc, etc, etc
Excuse the extreme cynicism of this, but this is how I view Political Correctness. It's not about tolerance and it's certainly not about searching for truth. It's about the chic of the intelligentsia.
QUOTE(truethat @ Oct 15 2007, 07:11 PM)
And using the phrase "the speaker is bad" is kind of childish in my opinion. No one is BAD or GOOD. that's couching things in black and white and also characteristic of limited experience.
Agreed. But political correctness is childish too. That's why I used the term "bad"
QUOTE(truethat @ Oct 15 2007, 12:38 PM)
Basically threads like these remind me of people venting about not being PC about the situation of the Blacks in the country or some other type of excuse for admitting the "reality" of what people are REALLY like based on the OPs narrow minded experience.
Google I'm tired of being Politically Correct and see what you can find, you'll probably agree with most of them as they are not terrible.
http://www.violentacres.com/archives/116/i...cal-correctness
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/22/national...t&position=
http://www.quizilla.com/users/PreppyGal23/...elieve_in_god./
The first one is by a Christian who is tired of having to deal with Gay people and watch what they say. They say "oh heck who cares if we use the "N" word" and then spells it out for good measure.
The second one is about a teddy bear company that used "Crazy for You" and teddies in straighjackets for a Valentines Promotion and it offended Mentally Ill people.
The third one is about Christians tired of having to side step Jesus and God because of others.
Tolerance is what it is. You either use it or you don't. And tolerance is about allowing others to live their life as they choose, and AND to be public about it as long as it doesn't step on others.
Now all this commentary towards religion reminds me very much of the attitudes that people have towards homosexuals.
Its fine what they do in the privacy of their own homes but I don't want to have to see it.
On the surface that doesn't seem so bad right. Except in this country homosexuals can not be open about the way they embrace one another. They can't give each other a big kiss in the airport. They can't stroll around in the fall with their arms around each other.
Etc etc. etc.
And if they soon get the freedom to, then down the line someone is going to start a thread just like this one. Why? Because it makes them mad that someone can be so HAPPY and FULLFILLED with something they personally oppose.
So like Homophobes, Christianphobes, try to turn Christianity into something vile and ugly and wrong. Something intolerable.
Immature people expect the world to reflect life as they prefer it. Mature people recognize that it won't do that. You learn to be PC which is not a term about how you act in the world but rather how you keep your bias out of the public arena.
I no more want to listen to a person ranting about being intolerant about religion than I do about people protesting Brown versus the Board of Ed or the Westboro Baptist Church showing up with their signs.
Intolerance is intolerance.
Google I'm tired of being Politically Correct and see what you can find, you'll probably agree with most of them as they are not terrible.
http://www.violentacres.com/archives/116/i...cal-correctness
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/22/national...t&position=
http://www.quizilla.com/users/PreppyGal23/...elieve_in_god./
The first one is by a Christian who is tired of having to deal with Gay people and watch what they say. They say "oh heck who cares if we use the "N" word" and then spells it out for good measure.
The second one is about a teddy bear company that used "Crazy for You" and teddies in straighjackets for a Valentines Promotion and it offended Mentally Ill people.
The third one is about Christians tired of having to side step Jesus and God because of others.
Tolerance is what it is. You either use it or you don't. And tolerance is about allowing others to live their life as they choose, and AND to be public about it as long as it doesn't step on others.
Now all this commentary towards religion reminds me very much of the attitudes that people have towards homosexuals.
Its fine what they do in the privacy of their own homes but I don't want to have to see it.
On the surface that doesn't seem so bad right. Except in this country homosexuals can not be open about the way they embrace one another. They can't give each other a big kiss in the airport. They can't stroll around in the fall with their arms around each other.
Etc etc. etc.
And if they soon get the freedom to, then down the line someone is going to start a thread just like this one. Why? Because it makes them mad that someone can be so HAPPY and FULLFILLED with something they personally oppose.
So like Homophobes, Christianphobes, try to turn Christianity into something vile and ugly and wrong. Something intolerable.
Immature people expect the world to reflect life as they prefer it. Mature people recognize that it won't do that. You learn to be PC which is not a term about how you act in the world but rather how you keep your bias out of the public arena.
I no more want to listen to a person ranting about being intolerant about religion than I do about people protesting Brown versus the Board of Ed or the Westboro Baptist Church showing up with their signs.
Intolerance is intolerance.
You call me immature in a post that is basically a long-winded ad hominem attack?
True, you're very good at demonizing people who aren't as tolerant as you like to claim you are. I've well explained myself and I think I've given a reasonable stance in this topic.. And you don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to agree with you. You are misusing words like "bias". I'm talking about events that have absolutely and factually happened, it's not a matter of opinion whether these things were done, and will continue to be done by religion. What I am saying is that people need to be more reactionary when there is injustice on the part of religion that is costing people heavily, because if you decide to tolerate everything then anything can walk all over you.
Oh, and homosexuals don't murder people when they make love.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.