There have been a lot of postings on various subjects - mainly spiritual and psychic subjects - whereby people have made a Thread on some subject or another and then another person will reply

"Where's the proof???"

Proof is wonderful and will end any arguments in many cases, however, some things just cannot be proved, or for that matter, disproved - no matter what. After all, not everything is science based, not everything is physical. So how would proof be forthcoming in things of the Spirit.

In my opinion, they cannot be, the proof would only be there to see, for those experiencing it at the time and if there are no other witnesses around at that precise moment, where does that leave anybody on the outside - I will tell you where it leaves them, precisely where they were before the experience. However, for the person who has had an unusual, peculiar or spiritual experience, it could well change their lives and no amount of sceptical dialogue will change that person's view.

Often, certain experiences are meant for the subject alone, therefore, proof will never be forthcoming as it would be a private matter and in these cases trying to prove anything would be futile and a total waste of time and energy.

Sometimes, it comes to light that people do, indeed, have proof, via a photo or a video, but still the sceptic will stand firm "The photo is photoshopped, the video could have been doctored". So I ask, what proof would be 100% for the sceptic?

I suspect nothing would be enough, I take that back, perhaps a direct experience would erase all doubt, but even then, they would probably think it was their imagination.

GREAT TOPIC!! Thank you.

As an avid lover of unexplained mysteries, I cannot agree more. You know we all need some sort of "proof" and as a skeptical-believer myself, I do rely on my own personal opinion and objectivity. I do not need someone to prove to me what I do or do not see. Prove to me the sky is blue... prove to me blue is blue... blah, blah, blah...

HOWEVER, when seeking or asking for proof becomes a total mockery to the actual website and other's possible belief's or non-belief's then there's a time to draw the line.

This applies to everything from debates regarding hauntings to ufo's to big foot to WHATEVER. Don't get me wrong, I love a good debate! However, some of the "debating" I've seen on here as of late is embarrassing, humiliating and just mockery IMO. NOTE I AM SAYING IMO!! So hop off right now.

I, personally come here to learn; which I have greatly. I do not come here to see other's MOCK certain belief's or act disrespectful toward's other's. I mean EVEN if I DO NOT BELIEVE in something I will share with I do or don't believe in a respectful manner.

I also believe there's a difference between cynicism and being skeptical. Cynicism tends to be somewhat of a "I KNOW EVERYTHING" type of attitude towards things there is NO WAY to know ALL ABOUT. Bahahahahahahaha!! It makes me laugh to see some of the closed minded thinking sometimes. It's like the jokes on them...lmfao!

So, yea... I'm a skeptic (NOT CYNICAL) and also a believer. I wil be the first to admit that I in no way have been privied to any "insider" information. I do not absolutely know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that something is or is not in any way "paranormal" or "unexplainable".

Lol... I do have fun. So, happy debating everyone!! Jody

Wow cool thread I never thought of it that way

Excellent post lotus flower . I agree wholeheartedly . it doesn't matter what happens there will always be skeptics . and i honestly do think that most have to experience things to believe it . and until they do its just another boaster claiming some fake powers or that they are special enough to have seen a ghost whatever. Im hoping a day wil come when all is revealed that these abilities arent mysticle or special that they are just a natural part of us that we never fully understood . ( im not talking jedi powers here either)

great topic .

blessings SS79 x x x

Good thread Lotus!

Here is the thing.

Things of the Spirit (personal beliefs) are one thing. Presenting them as physical realities is totally another thing. There is a BIG different between opinions/beliefs and what really might have taken place.

Faith/Belief do not facts make.

Let's take OBE/Astral Projection - since this is a great example of "opinion/belief" -vs- as some do present it as an actual 'physical' event of leaving their bodies and seeing themselves on their bed.

A common thing that is pretty consistant is: "I saw myself laying in bed, as I (stood beside the bed/or floated above." Did you actually physically see this or did you mind show you the last thing you remember before going to bed while you were dreaming" I find it curious that people JUMP that their Astral/OBE was real and present it as such. When indeed when you listen to the story - it actually discribes a Lucid or other level of dreaming.

So the answer is simple. Change w/out your seeing it, the enviroment. Use items that are totally out of your normal expectation. It has to be seriously random, like a totally off color material over you. Then if you see this - it's a real OBE/Astral event. If you do not see this but see what your mind remembers before going to bed - it is a dream. Simple answer also simple evidence and proof.

Then one can no long present or represent AP/OBE experiences as 'real' but have to submit to the evidence it was a dream. A cool dream, a fun dream - but still just a dream

As for other of the so called "psionic/x-men/jedi/anime" powers. I'm sorry but these are just totally silly claims. I do not care how much 'belief' one has -- these Telekinetic, energy constructs and so on powers are fantasy. Even the evidence that some supply is and has been easily debunked and shown and explained exactly what is going on -vs- what they think is going on.

The problem here is - this field has been so flooded w/scams - hoaxes - illusions and mid-identification that the 'believer' has no small problem to over come. So ya, evidence is asked for, proof is asked for and that is very reasonable. In every other single field of life - when extraordinary claims are made - the person making it knows they have to offer credible and verifiable proof. This is not even thought strange. It is understood quite clearly - this is expected and had better be met or the person knows to keep his mouth seriously quiet.

But it seems this field,some have gone to no small length to make the exception to a very long standing rule. Why is that?? Why do the "believers" go to great lenght to avoid, yes avoid backing up their claims w/proof? The answer is really simple: They have none to supply, so they avoid it. It is very much a Subjective Reality that is trying hard to be sold as Objective when they have nothing Objective to offer, except spiritual lame excuses.

If you cannot back up w/any objective proof, evidence and such -- then people should NOT try to pass it off as objective. Keep it in the subjective. Keep it honest. Accept the very real possiblity that, say Astral Projection - isn't actually a type of OBE but it is a dream state that you are in.

People should not over sell or over state their experiences as being Objectively Real. <-- It's just that simple.

It IS the believers 'fault' that skeptics exist. Want the skeptics to 'stand down'? Then do this: Do not over sell your personal experiences as "Objectively Real", when you can supply no Objective Proof to support it. Except the fact that this is more than not a mis-understanding of the what is actually going on -vs- what you feel or want to believe is going on.

It really is just that simple.

I also find it curious that people jump to the extraordinary so fast and show NO SMALL EMO when it's challenged. Don't get emo - look at the claim OBJECTIVELY not Subjectively. Why are people needing to have their dreams to be more than that? Why is it no small emotional issue to not accept it's just a dream??

Bottom line: Believers are afraid, yes they fear tests. Why? Because they do not want the answer they already know, if they are honest is the truth. It isn't extraordinary or paranormal. It's actually very mondane and normal. But this seems to be hard to accept. Why is that?

how would you go about illustrating a paranormal ability on the internet?....i healed my brother when he died but how could i prove that here..this seems silly...

I think most people should not try to tote their beliefs as objective fact. That would help things immensely. I think some people are just tired of the immature "guys im psycic i can reed minds" types of posts that are really more frequent than they should be.

My opinion on the proof issue though is that if something cannot be proven, it for all intensive purposes does not exist. That's not always going to be accurate, but Occam's razor is better than blind assumption.



You can't. You shouldn't even try to. If it happened, then be glad it happened but if you can not prove it, don't even bother to claim it.

Actually this wouldn't be hard to present evidence to;

Was your brother in the hospital when he died? Then there would be medical proof - that he did indeed died. Then when you did what ever it was you do - the medical reports would show, he 'came back'.

Or ......

Was it when you were alone? How do you know for certain he died? There are a lot of cases where people were thought to be dead and then just came too ... w/no intervention.

Also what are you medical experiences to know for certain he was dead? Was it a matter of just a few seconds or a minutes?

See this claim would be looked at - - again what you thought YOU DID - may not be the case. The brother might have come back on his own.

And this would be proof to you would it. i doubt it Jj you said yourself regarding the lady who got the correct numbers that all it proved was that she knew the numbers not how she got it you then stated that you would require further experiments using thermal imaging . so to come on this thread and say its that simple as putting a cloth on you and seeing it is wrong. seems like the skepitcs are always moving the goal posts to me .

you know my opinions on it Jj and im not gonna derail this thread going over and over the same thing again . but at least tell it like it is be honest and say no the cloth wont be enough cause then we want thermal imaging in there as well . and this kinda proves the point of no proof ever being enough .it is within us all to question things that we havent experienced . which is why it will always happen IMO

blessings SS79 x x x

I just close this part of the topic w/this --> Even the doctor who did the test also stated this was not a good test and he even admitted that the fact that she got the numbers only proved one thing - she guessed the numbers. Nothing more and nothing less. There was NO evidence proving how she actually got it. The Doctor simply invalidated his own test ... what more can be said?

Back on topic.

Jj i know the test was flawed i said so myself thats not the point but i knew you would pick it up . the point is your asked in this thread what proof would be enough ?? so i believe we are still on topic . my point is what you state would be enough isnt what you really think would be enough cause then you are gonna throw something else in( thermal imagiing) . it wasnt a dig just an observation of how misleading your first post is in regards to the test .

blessings SS79 x x x

I know that - I was addressing that I would accept proof. Yes I would when it's actually supplied. There was no proof supplied here. So to use that against me as -- see you do not accept proof, is not a good example to use w/me.

You have no idea what I will accept and not accept. I'm sorry, you are making a personal opinion as a statement of fact. When no facts are or have been given!

Actually - I'll submit this. I accepted the evidence that was supplied on Tann's thread about reading. Even though she didn't 'get me correct' there was plenty of evidence supplied that I publically acknoweldged her "reading skills". I even had to one of my fellow skeptics tell me how accurate she was. Yes she PROVIDED EVIDENCE .... and I publically accepted and acknowledged it as valid ....

ok never mind . lol im not gonna keep explaining . ive seen your threads i know you accepted it with tan . but the question here i believe is what proof would you accept ? i can only make assumtions on what proof you wil accept if you dont outline it in full which i didnt think you did in the first post and thats my point . but hey never mind

Hi, KBA.

Unlimited would be entitled to discuss his experience with his brother here (preventing his brother's death). Could you suggest a way for him to do that without making a claim?



Occam's razor is an assumption, what is called in polite circles a heuristic, a.k.a. rule of thumb.

Even if it weren't, why do you suppose it favors scepticism? It urges the simpler unrefuted hypothesis.

I can think of no simpler hypothesis than God wills it or its lovely Arabic counterpart insh'Allah.

Ok, sorry I was on a different 'track' of thought here.... Forgive my mis-understanding.

To answer your question,what would I accept as proof and evidence. I cannot give you a 'blanket answer' - it would depend on the claim. Each claim would be different. Would I expect a Telepathy claim to meet the telekinetic claim -- no. So you'd have to give me a specific claim for me to answer what would be valid and credible proof....

I once saw a movie called Proof. It was about a blind son trying to prove to himself that his mom did really love him.

Sometimes we need many many many personal experiences before we have our proof of something.

Once we have our proof, that should be enough. Each of us have our POV and proof for our knowledge or insight on something. Some day we will be wise enought to understand the reason these things are that way. Different experences, different POV, different kinds of proof all leading what exactly? Accept ane another and their views of reality, or what. Try to enlighten another who is trying to enlighten you. That sounds like endless conflict to me.

Why not love the diversity and those that represent another POV, experience, and their Proof.

John

The only way for there to be proof of really..anything... is the person sees/hears/smells/feels/taste it for themselves. Otherwise, there really isn't no other way to show it. That is why there is so many debunker's out there, they need first hand account.

np Jj


Well telekenesis and AP is one of those things where physical testing is easy to do . The theme of the thread was things that are harder to test and thats what the topics about so soemthing like spirits maybe . all the pics get debunked but what would be proof enough for you if any outside of having your own experience . peronally i think it would have to come down to having the experience myself but some may disagree .

IMO posting somthing like "i can spin a psi wheel with my mind" on an internet site with lots of users is trying to show proof to others.
if proof wasnt important this site wouldn't exsist. if people didnt need to prove themselves they wouldnt bother posting it here...

OMG... JJ and John I love you guys soooooo much!

To be quite honest, I think you two men are the only people on this forum who truly understand me. (Sorry everyone else).

JJ we've been down and back this road.. you know how I feel and what I feel and so on ... you just explain things so much better than I.

And John... you just have a wonderful way of wording things that just *click*.



♥♥ Jody

It's an assumption, but hardly a blind one. We have seen time and time again that with things of paranormal nature, the simplest explanation is the best one. It's about not being presumptuous in the face of strange experiences. There are many things that are not so special or unusual but we will create hundreds of ideas that make them very different than what they really are and truly appear to be. One example is the old "face on Mars". Who knows how many people made theories about it involving supernatural beings creating it and all other things of that sort, but when we zoomed in a little more, it hardly resembled a face at all! That's how these things almost always turn out when all the cards are on the table. It's best to look for the most simple explanation for anything, and then if new circumstances or facts are found that challenge this, we can change our answer to it.

He can talk about his experience, of course.. but there is a difference between people who say "This is what I experienced, I don't know what caused it and I'm not quite sure what it was.. I should look for a good and rational explanation", and people who say "I have magical powers and I know because this experience happened to me". If I saw a ghost jumping around my room now, I would first question my own sanity and then question whether ghosts exist, but nobody wants to do things like that; there's this stubborn sense that what the person witnessed is absolute and true, and that's not in the best interest of real truth. It's a simple point of not trying to instantly turn it into something paranormal when it doesn't necessarily have to be. If you want people to believe anything you say, you have to give them reason to believe it.. and with things like these, testimony isn't good enough. If you just want to talk about it, then nobody's stopping you but don't try to get other people to accept your conclusions unless you have reasonable proof to do that with .

Actually there are ways to prove spirits and ghost - it's rather involved. I've even had dealings w/ghosts and demons specifically. I would say a acid burn hand print on my stomach would qualify as proof?? This was a number of years back. I also got pushed back a good few feet of my feet.

I've had to rebuke a female spirit in the bedroom of a 16 yr old boy, who was telling the kid to kill himself, so he could be with her. And other first hand encounters. I've also had claims that were nothing more than active imagination. So each case is on their own merits and not just taken as "real" until it's been validated as real.

Wow i didnt expect that LOL . thanks for sharing i mean that. its nice to see that you can share some of your experiences with us . you know i understand where your coming from even if i do get a little wacko at you at times LOL . and sometimes i think that all i see is you in the skeptics role which isnt a bad thing at all . i guess i just wanted to see what experiences you had had yourself . again thanks for sharing

blessings SS79 x x x

I've shared these experiences here on the board... but they can be easily missed - but yes, I've had a few ....

Here are two other posted experiences, 1st hand ---> With Pictures as proof: Though not directly related to 'paranormal', I think??

First Post:

Second Post:

Happy Readings ... Jj

LOL thanks Jj i wasnt going to dare ask for proof thought that would be pushing my luck . i'll take a looksy ty x x x

Hi, KBA.

Thanks for anwering. Discussion works!



Problem solved. That's not Occam's Razor. It's another heuristic, perhaps (assuming you are in the United States, where this one is popular with physicians) "When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."

Or, to capture the "look and feel" of the Razor: "Prefer explanations based exclusively on commonplace things."

Which may conflict with Occam's Razor. That is, your preference is to go with the commonplace even if the explanation is complicated (the cat was scared by a loud noise, she spooked the dog, who banged into the wall, which dislodged the picture) compared with the alternative (the ghost pulled the picture off the wall).

That also is consistent with the flavor of the rest of your post, I think.

It seems to me that there is a laundry list of questions someone might have about anyone else's report about anything. Putting aside the apparently contentious "Is the poster's motive for posting sincere?" these would be:

Did the events reported actually occur?
Did anything else not reported also occur?
Is there another interpretation of what was reported, besides the poster's?

Of these, only the first one really raises the issue of "proof." The second one is a matter of follow-up questions and answers, which then become part of the report. As to the third, the answer is always yes, and that is where heurisitics and assumptions come into play, but not "proof."

Unless you have had some similar experience yourself, or someone you trust has shared such a thing with you, then realistically, no other evidence will support full belief in a phenomenon.

All that can really be accomplished on the web is to establish that a poster seems to believe in his or her own report. Testimony is evidence. Why one witness' testimony is credible while another's, even with similar content, is incredible is a complicated question.

Pictures, video, sound recordings, etc. can illustrate testimony and provide opportunities for disproof (which, if the report survives the attempts, rationally adds to the credibility of the report). But, since anything can be faked, and not just on the web, the quality of the proof will still always turn on the credibility of the witness.

Of course, I have no proof of that .

See SS79, there is ways to provide some proof or validation of ones claim ... pieces at least...

This is what I look for -

We're on the honor system here. Asking a member for proof is no different than accusing him or her of lying. This is not a courtroom. If proof existed, then the title of the board would be "Explained Mysteries".

If someone is lying, that is his or her problem, not ours. Whether a member is lying or not, each of us has the right to agree, disagree, offer alternative solutions, or ignore. Frankly, I can't understand why anyone would lie. What purpose would that serve? Perhaps he or she knows that close-minded skeptics can be suckered into worthless debates.

Whatever the reasons, there's no excuse for treating members as liars. After all, where's our proof that they are lying? Do we hold one or more doctorate degrees in clinical psychology, sociology, and/or psychiatry? Are we psychic or just wannabee police officers? Why do electronic typewritten words on our monitors eat at our guts so much that we can't sleep at night without accusing complete strangers of lying?

So what if they're lying? So what if they understand something differently than we do? Are we going to protect each other from their lies and misunderstandings? Are we so self-righteous that other members would be completely misguided if it weren't for our helpful wisdom? I guess some of us have to feel like we're special... and asking for proof is the last desperate act. That is what it really proves.

Its our problem if we constantly are reading their idiotic posts. The crazy claims from people keep this subject from being taken serioiusly and for most skeptics that what we want. A serious, scientific look into this field.

That pretty much the problem, isn't it Eric?

We want a serious dialog, serious evidence, serious proof. But what we get instead is:

Emo excuses...
no small attitudes and name called....
told how "un-spiritual" we are ....
told how "closed minded" we are ....
told they are 'above' offering proof of their claims ....
told to find the scam ..umm "truth" for ourselves ....
told they are too 'spiritual' to be bothered w/the skeptics ....

Basically offered nothing more then: E X C U S E S ..... They avoid the all to clear fact - they know as we do, they have nothing to offer us that can be taken even sorta, kinda, maybe seriously .... and some how that's the Skeptic's fault?? Even though we are NOT the ones making the fantastic fantasy claims ...

Seriously - how can it be taken seriously, when they offer nothing that isn't even credible or verifiable, let alone serious??

If someone is posting dubious claims, whether to incite flaming wars or not, he or she should be reported to the Mods. If we are truly serious, why should we waist our time being suckered into unconstructive tangents. We should be adult enough to do the right thing, report them and move on.

Well, thats hard to do considering 25%(made up number, but its alot,lol) of the posters on this board make claims. Some claims small things, and others crazy ones. All and all they are still unsubstantiated. That old saying, "put up or shut up." Comes to mind.

I think skeptics become more cynical after being on this board for years. Its hard not to after reading the metaphysic section.

Some of those 25% may be making false claims, but some may be making claims that other people have also made. That's why a good knowledge of resources can make their claims seem less crazy and suspicious. If they are sincere, whether their interpretation of the claim is correct or not, they should be asked questions about why and how. There are ways of determining whether someone is lying or just confused. If they feel like they're being attacked, they may not come back, and visitors who read their posts will not join. Another good adage is "if we don't start no sh!t, there won't be none."

I noticed that Astrology is also in this forum. I don't believe in astrology, never have and never will. However, I've never visited any Astrology thread while I've been here and never will. I can't offer them any help, knowledge, or constructive criticism. All I can do is cause problems for them. So I just don't go there. Besides, what goes around comes around. Do I want a team of Astrologers coming here and attacking my beliefs of OBEs? No way!

You made good points St Q! I know you have had astral projection experiences yourself as you reported in postings in other Threads, personally, I found no problem in accepting what you were saying in any way, in actual fact I found them extremely interesting.

To everybody else:

What is disturbing me is this, people in all walks of life may be having "peculiar" experiences, but they may be totally unwilling to share those experiences through fear of being called bare-faced liars. Personally, I don't blame them, I mean, why the hell should they tell their experiences only to hear the old adage of "where's the proof?" They may not have had a camera or video recorder at hand ready to record any such event and as sure as eggs are eggs, not all things are possible to be experienced at will, ready for the camera to roll.

There are a few people on this Site that have had numerous things happen that have been extraordinary, they do not report every experience. Why, people ask, the answer most probably is because why should they, they are not guinea pigs in a laboratory, they are not subjects of scrutiny and they are certainly not on trial.

Any experience here, posted on this Site is purely to exchange and share experiences, this is not a scientific site and neither is it a court of law, but it sure as hell feels like it at times

Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less whether anyone believes what I have posted is true or not, the only thing I really care about is that I do, indeed, report the truth and do not exaggerate, nor do I lie. Lying would serve no purpose, worse still, I would know that what I was saying was not the truth.

Regarding liars fooling others: why bother, if someone did manage to get away with lying it would only last for a short time before others started to "twig" that something was seriously amiss, true colours will always show in the end.

It truly would be lovely to hear of people's experiences, but they will not do it whilst others are continually asking for proof. Sometimes that proof is impossible to come by, because one thing is for sure, paranormal and spiritual experiences are spontaneous and will often happen when least expected and it is in these cases that proof is 100% impossible to show to anybody else.

Good post lotus .

some thngs are proovable yes but there are some things which just arent. i agree they come at times when not expected . we cant always be ready camera in hand or notebook to jot down every detail . if only we could have them happen at will then maybe we could try to sort them out for any evidence . i would love to be able to prove some of my experiences but its just not possible but they were proof enough to me . would i share them here NO cause i couldnt back them up with any photographic evidence and i learnt pretty fast that evidence is needed before you consider sharing here . which is a shame i bet some have some great strories. Im not talking wild i can fly claims or i can make the weather change with my mind just wierd little things that happen on a day to day basis .
I all for being skeptical first and looking for the logic but some things just arent able to be eplored in that manner . would be great if we had all the answers but some things are meant to remain a mystery .and i also think somethings are meant to be personal to the experiencer .

blessings SS79 x x x

Never a more true statement said!

Imagine someone having quite an eye-opener experience, only for someone to demand proof and when it was not forthcoming (because it was not possible to give the proof), they were called liars and BullS****ers. Some experiences are truly sacred and one of the best phrases ever, to me is, "do not cast pearls before swine" - they will not understand.

Is this an I TOLD YOU SO lol .I'm still sticking to the fact that some personal experiences cant be proven . they just happen .but we should still be able to share them i feel .

I dont make any wild claims JJ i said i had obe experiences, didnt know what they were wasnt 100 percent sure . i cant fly nor can i move anything with my mind but ive had odd experiences that i have tried to rationalise. and i can't so they are in my wierd experience folder . maybe ill never make sense of them as you wont yours. and yes you provided some proof . i could question it but i dont have that need. i accepted your account of the events that took place and looked at your pics . i have no reason to doubt your credibility . thanks for sharing

blessing SS79 x x x

No it's not an "I told you so..." as it is, evidence is there if one just looks for it. But then one also has to becareful w/the evidence they have. Is it fully and truthfully understood? See w/the ref. pics - I could easily paint an 'alien abduction' picture (no pun intended). The pictures could be 'proof' of it - but is it? See I cannot make any claims of alien abductions - though some have for me. I've been told I've been taken by the "Nordics". I found that funny, because how did this person know this, when I didn't know this??

All I can claim as facts are I went to bed - slept and woke up w/these bruised, marks, scratches and such. Anything more would be pure speculation.

In my limited 53 years, I have noticed that a lot of people need, want, tend to jump on the 'extraordinary' band wagon - without having thought through the 'event' carefully. They just JUMP! Then when other ideas of the more mondane are given, 90% of it is met w/no small emotional rejection and such.

WHY IS THAT? <-- Honest question.

See people want 'serious dialog' - but when someone brings up a less 'dramatic' answer and possiblity, even based on some actual facts. It is rejected or the name ... SKEPTIC is thrown out, like it now disqualifies them from the dialog!

Again, why is that?

I have no problem w/questions of, "I believe this might have happened.... What do you all think?" This is a good question, but it also opens the 'door' for ideas and suggestions and even a little facts to be thrown in that more often then not are NOT appreciated or welcomed. Especially if it comes from the "lowly Skeptic".

I think the bottom line from my observation of UM posts over the past year --- More then 90% of the believers actually fear proof, evidence and such. Why? Because it will do just that --- prove it's nothing 'extraordinary' but very mundane. That is why --- they fear the real truth of the 'event' - 'happening'.

You have just said what I have been trying to word for months! Clever Spiritual Soul!!!!

If someone does not have the need to prove, they won't bother, I mean why should they, it is not needed, not for the person having the experience anyway. Anyone that doesn't believe them, well that's their problem really, it is certainly not the problem of the person having the experience.

You know i agree with that . that some do jump to the extroadinary before looking for logical explanations . lots want to beleve and so listen only to those who agree . i used to frequent a site where no one questoned anything . I hated it . I wanted people to look objectively at what was occuring before making assumptions that it was paranormal. still do. which is why i came here .

however its the things that occur, not big things but the little things that some may find mundane . that can also have a great impact on people although it cant be proven it can change their life for the better and the fact that i cant prove these *little things * that occured doesn't make them any less special to me . and i just think that people should be allowed to share these without fear of ridicule.

blessings SS79
x x x x

thats true

Then they shouldn't care when we call them out. They shouldn't complain when we ask for proof. They are the one posting on a public board.The real reason they don't provide it is that they are making the whole thing up. Thats the truth.

SS 79 - I commend you!! I mean that very much and from my heart!

Look at this thread and the direction that it took. U were the only one as I previewed it that actually dialogued w/a Skeptic! OMG .... what were you thinking?? U actually answered some of my observations w/agreement. Again what were you thinking?? - Well done!!

Now go back and notice the give and take between us - and for the most part the positive nature of our dialog. Do you agree w/me 100% - No. But you do not disagree w/me 100% either. We actually had a give and take dialog w/out throwing emo's at each other and so on. Now notice how a good number of the other's all but ignored the "lowly Skeptic". Once it was understood - "Skeptic" and "believers" for the most part the Believers talked w/each other to support their 'belief' about the "proof" equation but not one of the even responded to my post that you did about the "Jump on the bandwagon".

Now here is the point - this exactly shows what I was talking about w/the "Skeptic" --> once he/she is identified ... basically by more believers then not: IGNORED. They are not 'enlightened', they do not 'believe' .... (Believers) cannot answer their questions is what's it's all about. If they even answered on part of the "Why is that....", well they can't and won't ... because then they might, well start thinking.

But notice that the Skeptic doesn't shy away from believers. It's pretty much one sided bias. The Believer attitude towards the Skeptic. That really says a lot in my book. Who is afraid of who?

See you said something I thought was exactly "right on"!


This is a choice you make to not look into it. To not investigate it. To no want/wish to understand ... which is COOL.

NOT DIRECTED AT YOU SS79, BUT NOW ADDRESSED TO ON AND ALL:

But then people, with the above mind thought, should not post their experience online and ask, "What happened to me?", or something similar. That is opening a dialog w/ALL members of the forum. Not just those you hope will 'tell you what you want to hear', like a recent thread finally revealed. IF you are looking for just one answer -- U should go to a believer's board only. They will tell you what you want to hear and nothing else. <-- But is that what you really want, biased, tickle your ear answers?

See when the believer cops an attitude or 'spiritual' platitude, instead of answering the Skeptic head on, they proved ... they are afraid of the Skeptic's question, observation and such. Or if you avoid it with answers like: "You need to open your mind ...", or "just because science has yet .....", or and this one is still my favorite, "I'm here to help spiritually minded people, I don't answer to Skeptics...."

My answer to the "You need to open your mind..." I think our minds are opened, more so then the believers. How can I say that? We are looking at ALL the facts and Possibilities. The believer that throws this quote isn't. Because he is seriously avoiding what has been presented to him/her.

My answer to the, "just because science has yet ..." Answer. Science has in a lot of cases. Especially where this has been thrown out. Science has said. "Not humanly possible. Will not happen." It's the believer not science that add the, "... yet...."

My answer to the, "I'm here to help spiritually minded people, ..." No you are looking for a following and hopefully make some $$$ of off people that will pay you to tell them what they want to hear. U cannot answer the Skeptic's questions, because then, that would expose you and that would hurt your bottom line: $$$.

Serious dialog involves looking at ALL THE ANSWERS/POSSIBILITIES. First you look at the rational, down to earth answers. Then after it has been honestly determined that they really do not 'fit' ... U slowly and cautiously branch out to other answers and possibilities. You do not just JUMP on the extraordinary answers first. That is the very LAST place you go, not the first.

You want to have serious dialogs, then enter it seriously to find honest, truthful and straight answers. Be serious enough to have an open mind to look at the logical, rational, common sense answers first, not last.

I totally hear and understand what is being said here.

I do have a question. I consider myself a "skeptical-believer". I hesitate to accept certain things until I see or feel proof within myself. (yes, I just had a huge tangent on this yesterday on another thread - ugh).

I think the "proof" comes to those in other ways than just through a forum too, I mean yes, I believe Tann; no doubts from me...

What I get turned off and botherd by are the claims of fire-shooting, ice-freezing, yea any and all of that sort of stuff. To be honest, that sort of thing doesn't even enter my mind it's just so "action-fantasy-movie-type" stuff. Maybe I'm closed minded there but sorry.

I have had experiences with paranormal-type things and I do believe in possibilities. But, I have come to learn that some post things that just may be not true... why? For sh!ts and grins? To test other members?

I remember one time a group of us were playing on a thread. We'd post a pic and then just blurt out what we thought about it. I had SO MUCH FUN and we weren't harming anyone. Well, another member came onto the thread and put up a pic to specifically bait us all and our guesses and try to make us all look like idiots. We knew what his intentions were the whole time but whatever we all played along. Then when only like one person said something that was right, ALL the others on the thread were made to feel like bumbling idiots... "you all 'so called' psychic's" as he referred to the member's. Ugh, man, some people have nothing better to do. THAT's what bothers me; not serious questions or sincere statement's.

I also don't expect anyone to HAVE to believe ME personally. That's their own choice based on ME and my track record, right? I get annoyed by new people (or some older member's) when they make a sarcastic comment without even knowing me from EVE!

Anyway, sorry about the mini-rant but yes, I do require proof (however I can make my own decision's what to believe or not AS PROOF). I can usually smell a BS'er from 1,000 miles away anyway so who cares.

Right Jj? Do you agree with me? Just curious.

Jody


edit: speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeling

Thanks JJ

Can i just clarify here that the fact i made this comment above about not having the need was not because i do not want/wish to investigate / understand. but from what i understood from what i read of your experience was that asking for any more proof off you as to how you got the bruises/ marks and who did them would have been futile . you said yourself you have no idea . So for me to have asked you for more proof would be like saying i didn't believe your version .i did . not because i so wanted to believe it blindly or because it fitted in with my plans of the mystical.but because i trust your word and would hope you wuld have no reason to lie .
Of course after seeing your posts, I had questions as everyone does like how do you know that you didnt do those bruises while asleep how can you be sure it wasnt your wife . but the reason there was no need for these questions was because you have covered those bases already.The evidence you presented and your account of the events is all we have to go on. one then has to make a judgement as to wether we accept the evidence presented and wether it aligns with the story in your case i felt it did . so hence i had no need .



My sentitments exactly .



much respect to you Jj

SS79 x x x

I agee with everything you said here .

blessings SS79 x x x

Thanks SS ♥ Jody

Thanks, Lotus. It's nice to receive a little positive recognition now and then...

On a personal level, I find it much easier to discuss my experiences with those who have had one or more OBEs, whether I have any advanced knowledge of that fact or not. As Robert Monroe said, "We belong to a secret club with no name or meeting place, but we know a member when we meet one."

Trying to explain these personal experiences to just anyone can be very embarrassing and difficult. Unless they are knowledgeable and open-minded about such things, we share no common frame of reference. However, posting and discussing my OBEs on here isn't so bad because no one knows who I am. Besides, it's a great feeling to able to meet fellow OBErs, like yourself, and to help those who are willing to ask.

I am willing to discuss anything about OBEs (e.g., methods, limitations, idiosyncrasies, spiritual implications, etc.), but discussing its existence is not an option - never has been and never will be. My sanity about my own personal experiences is far more important to me than the expressed opinions of unexperienced strangers.

When new people post their OBEs on here, I can usually tell if they are lying, telling the truth, or just misinterpreting their experiences. I haven't read any that were worth reporting. Trolling is a serious offense. However, if they have to be judged, who better to do so than those who have walked in their shoes.

The thing is Eric, that when some people post on these Boards, they aren't placing themselves in the scientific category, many of them are not interested in providing proof, what they are most likely doing is just reporting their own experiences, whether by starting off a Thread or replying in other Threads.

For the record, I can honestly say I have had experiences that I am unable to prove, because they happen unexpectedly and spontaneously, there is not time to grab any equipment to be able to provide any proof, I am also unable to initiate things at will on the vast majority of occasions, therefore I cannot even get equipment ready to provide such proof. I also do not consider it any sort of duty to provide proof, I fully understand that not everyone believes the things I say or post, that I completely accept. What I do not accept however, is being told I am lying just because I do not provide proof.

It is not up to me to provide proof, as I am not a laboratory guinea-pig and neither is anybody else.

Hi St Q

I agree 100% about sanity in personal experiences being important, it can be easy for others to sway someone is a different direction and cause them to start to doubt their own experiences, this can send that person off their own path and that could be a little dodgy to say the least.

This Site is definitely good for discussing OBEs and other things, after all it isn't possible, most of the time, to discuss such things with others in the normal walks of life. Standing at the bus stop and initiating a discussion about OBEs with a stranger could end up with us being taken away by the men in white coats that tie up at the back