It has been my experience on UM, that certain debates are deleted on sensitive subjects, i wont mention these debates, but i am sure we have all witnessed them, It is my view, that on an open forum, dedicated to promoting open debate, (as long as it remains constructive) with elements of intellectual merit, that these debates, even if somewhat offensive to the few, but remain balanced and substanciated to the many, should be allowed to continue.
these debates are often related to topics in the field of race, sexuality & religeon......sensitive argumemnts indeed, but they should not be treated like a political hot potatos....

It seems again, that when the minorities complain, they overpower the majorities right to speak

and ultimately the values that have made the west the haven of ultimate freedeom, which exsits from freedom of expression, even if unpalletable to some....

they are more cautious here then some sites...keeps it clean i guess?...

No way!! This forum RUNS on debates!! Follow the rules, play fair and everybody wins! I don't want to see yes-men (or women) everywhere. I don't personally like to see some of the attacks/ mockery but it's not my job to monitor anything... that's where the Mod's come into play. I do, however, have the right to state MY OWN opinions (within the rules and guidelines of this forum) and in my own special way

Happy debating!

But when it comes to name calling and personal attacks, then I agree with closing if not deleting the threads. That is a problem I see way to often on here. Instead of ignoring a person, many will personally attack. Also, we have a few members who get a thrill out of baiting others to get a rise out of them. I try not to rise to insults, but being human, I will at times try to defend myself. Everyone has an opinion, that is how we learn, by hearing other's opinions. BUT, can we really have educated, rational and POLITE debates? Very rarely.

KOODOS TO YOU SIR I MUST AGREE

I hear you Glory Baby Doll.. see the baiters and see the "victims"... doesn't take a brain surgeon.

I'm not afraid of a low down dirty debate. And I've never reported anyone.. and I can take it...
A good put down is funny aimed at me..
But yeah sure, stay within the rules...of course, but it does seem as if there's a hardcore minority..who, rather than debate, will instead complain.. to the powers that be, and use the subjective grey area of the rules to shut down thread..or have it deleted.
Seems there's more freedom/balance in the World section; probably due to a top/balanced moderator(s)..
But, I've seen threads disappear which I don't understand why or see anything wrong with the subject;in fact some of these subjects need debating.

and because a few can't handle themselves the many should suffer, sounds just like the real world. so i guess we cannot escape the protection of the weak and mindless

I hear you Billy. Hmmm, maybe a complaint quota should be reached? I too have noticed disappearing threads in the past. Whatever, I just move on to the next topic

Edit to add:


Not sure if you're directing this at me wolfieboy or glory? Hmmmm, I think the few who can't handle themselves are warned by the Moderator's... and the many should suffer?? You mean the many who read whatever thread you speak of? The real world is quite a rude awakening, yes, however- I do not need to "escape the protection" I can protect myself... and the weak and mindless; what exactly are you saying here?

This is quite odd.

to be honest, I was sorry to see the controversy about James Watson deleted. It's headline news around the world. Not discussing major news events seems odd, and I would have been interested to read what people had to say.

i bet this thread gets deleted

how am i supposed to be a better human and be all the best i can be with threads being deleted
I learn so much from good debates, i especially love the creativity of the jokes its all good humour and very entertaining.
It is such a shame, people would rather hit the report button than just be a bit open minded and laugh.

Keep it up guys we live in the land of the free for now?

well as far as religious debates go...I don't mind. I kinda get tired of reading the same arguments over and over again. Always ends up being a religion vs atheism. And if you agree with anyone, someone else to tell your wrong no matter what. It will never end.

I think the big reason threads are deleted or closed is because the debate cant stay in the constructive area. It always leads to name calling, obvious bashing of certain race, belief, political leaning...etc. If the majourity of posters could remain civilized there wouldn't be a problem.

For once we agree on something.....There's hope for us yet....

I've said before I prefer to let the foam fly. Shows us all who is made of what.
I feel strongly that the forum should be less moderated rather than more. Over time, the members seem to moderate it pretty well themselves. I recently practically taunted the moderators and admin. in order to play the lightning rod, (and took my smacking down for it) just to see if they had much to say about how badly certain members are allowed to get away with nearly anything. Not really anything to say. No big deal to me though. I just use said members against themselves and enjoy every bit of it.
I've had at least one topic get it's legs cut out from under it just for indulging in some biting satire...
Felt at the time it was a cowardly move.
Got over it and moved on, though with a bit less respect for the hand that slashed it.
Some forums have a "shark tank" or similar room where everything is totally unmoderated. Got to agree to that before entering.
There is a place in the world for telling it like you see it, regardless of who might get their little feelies hurt...
There is also great value in conducting ourselves like ladies and gentlemen most of the time.
A time and place for both, I think...
To everything there is a season.
I think many of us have about had it up to our eyeballs with whimpy whiney PC sensitivities about offensive this and offensive that.
The adult world is not a place for those easily offended.
And too many today act like certain subjects are simply not allowed, constitute hate speech or bigotry, etc...
I'll take more freedom as apposed to less, (not absolute freedom which is foolish) and risk a bruise or two now and then.
Those are some of my feelings on the matter.

LordScrummage,
I am not sure what you wish to achieve with this thread. You did read the terms of service when you joined U.M. didn't you? A thread is only ever deleted when it has over stepped what the moderator believes to be the boundaries. All too aften people treat U.M. like the intellectual be all and end all, their own egos tend to over ride the rights of the majority who post here. And a poster will begin to arrogantly insult and rudely prosyletise their beliefs. The worst material is often removed seperately and individual poster are warned privately with no interference to the actual debate.

However seeing as U.M. is a privately run site manned by un paid volunteers who do this in there spare time, if a thread becomes too difficult to deal with it will be removed. I guess the answer is as simple as..... If the posters follow the Terms of Service and show respect for each other without letting their egos loose, then the threads stay up and the debates take place.

Questions for you..

Who is reponsible for the removal of the thread? The posters who do not follow the terms of service or the moderators who are here to make sure that the Terms of service are followed? If you agree to abide by the Terms of Service which is a pre requisite are you not then expected to do exactly that. Or do we no longer hold the individual responsible for thier actions?



Escape the protection of the weak and mindless? You may wish to elaborate on this. Of course that would only be if you really are up to debating in an adult fashion.

Gotta agree there, the space threads are greatly handled also. I agree to the original post as well as yours.

It seems debating is meant to be very PC - IE: "Don't you dare tell them they're wrong, even though the evidence is against them, we're all correct here".


(Kismit VVV)


Then why not PM the person(s) in question and if it carries on further, delete THEIR flaming posts and temp ban them from that particular thread until they learn better. Other than deleting a whole thread which nine times out of ten the majority of posters are following the rules, besides the two people flaming at each other.

That's exactly what we do, the Moderators have their very own set of rules they must follow in order to protect the rights of the Posters. However once the above mentioned options have been used up then we are left with no chocie but to remove the thread in its entirety.

*If I run a view new threads search right now, how many controversial debates will I find currently taking place un surpressed at U.M.? It seems that lordscrummage who is not well known for his balanced views on Liberals who (quote) make him sick to the bone and liberals being pretty much anyone who disagrees with his own right wing views, may be does need to review the terms of service.
Of course there is this one
2h. Agenda posting: Do not use the forum to promote an agenda. This often involves the starting of threads or making posts which appear to be legitimate in nature but which are aimed at surreptitiously promoting some political view, religious belief or to attack or criticise other members, beliefs or views in an underhand manor which detracts from unbiased and fair discussion

and then there is
5.Moderator action
Unexplained Mysteries is a privately owned web site and as such we reserve the right to remove any post that we deem to be inappropriate, offensive or intentionally disruptive, or to take any action necessary against any member whose behaviour we deem to be inappropriate, offensive or intentionally disruptive. Action taken is done on a case by case basis and is dependant on the nature and severity of the violations, but can include anything up to the banning of the account and IP address.
By using the forum service you agree to the following:
5a. Compliance: You agree to co-operate with the requests of our site staff should you be asked to stop doing something that they deem to be disruptive, inappropriate or in violation of the terms of service.

5b. Protest: You agree not to attack, harrass, threaten or become abusive towards any member of staff. Members who become offensive or participate in harassing, threatening or retaliatory action against a member of staff will be subject to further action. All our moderators are volunteers who give up their own free time to keep the forum a safe and friendly place, please treat them with the respect that they deserve.

5c. Appeal: If you disagree with action taken against your account by a member of staff you can appeal the decision by contacting either the member of staff who took said action or an administrator privately via e-mail or through our private message system. Do not start threads on the forum questioning or criticising moderator action.

*Answer = 8. Eight contreversial threads including this one, un surpressed and still fully accsesible on the first page alone.

I do get tired of the "I'm smarter than you, better than you" comments and when I see them, on to the next thread I go.... I already know it will be deleted so I don't bother to post.



I agree this is a better alternative to deleting the thread. BUT the mods are here on their own time(VOLUNTEERS), they don't have the time to babysit so called adults who "debate" their egos instead of the topic at hand.

Thankyou watching Mother.

You snuck in before I edited my post for Chokma , so I will just make the point again that a thread is only deleted when all other options have been exhausted.

I think kismit has it in a nutshell here, and the consensus seems to agree.
Is freedom to debate freedom to abuse? freedom to demonise? Is it too PC to ask for the bigotry and xenophobia of the few moronic individuals (which breaches the terms and conditions all members agreed to upon joining the forum) to be moderated for the many who would prefer a constructive debate which is not led completely off track by the 'tactics' of the few interested in baiting, goading and the disruption of constructive dialogue?
from what i have seen on this site the mods are pretty tolerent of these few individuals and give them more than enough rope; when fun turns nasty and abusive they often step in with polite warnings, and if a post is particularly offensive they may delete the post, and PM the offending member who has crossed the line of acceptability. If a thread is designed to bait or offend with no constructive line of debate in mind it is rightly deleted. Those who feel hard done by for having posts or threads deleted for the above reasons should rather look to themselves and their motives for being members here.

But that's rarely the case. The flamers get a quick warning then the thread is instantly locked or deleted.

Where-as warning the flamer(s) ->>- deletion of their flaming posts ->>- second warning ->>- deletion of their flaming posts ->>- temp ban for the flamers from the thread = would mean no need to disrupt a perfect debating thread which other members could be doing as well as ignoring the flamers, instead of deleting the thread as a whole because you can't handle the flamer ignoring you. It's rather silly - when I'm sure you can ban a member from accessing a thread anyway. Which would be a far brighter solution to the problematic situation.

(By my typing of "you" I am not addressing yourself but the whole mod team / admin(s) (you never know when Daz is around) )

I agree.

One guy made a thread on all the parts of the Bible that were just plain lies .. ( Eg. 6,000 year old earth )
And The Mod Irish closed it.

Notice Irish isn't an atheist

>.>
<.<

Suspicious much?

It's allright Chokma I don't take it as a presonal attack, I am one of those people who genuinely enjoys a good debate.
We do not currently have the ability to ban a member from acsessing a thread, we also do not have the man power or desire to police every post or thread as it comes in, posters are expected to follow the rules.

There are also some threads that people post which are against forum rules. Like topics on drugs and suicide. It is a sad reality that when working as a moderator on any internet site you do get to see the worst that society has to offer. This is thankfully not usually on the forums long enough for the general public which includes children to see or have to deal with. Over the years we have experienced some very nasty stuff which has forced us to make rules which declare some subjects rightfully, taboo.

Be as suspicious as you like as I mentioned earlier the Moderators must follow their own set of rules, to protect the rights of posters. Irish is well within his rights to close a thread regardless of his religious choice.

And This particular volunteer has bills to pay, I will come back and check on this thread after I have finished at my real job. Goodnight all.

There are plenty of other forums where moderators and admin are either not present or encourage childish name-calling and baiting. Some have no rules at all. I think that if you are not capable of acting like an adult and following rules you might want to check out some of those other message boards; they might be more to your liking.

Some of us have been here for years debating important topics and try our best to follow the rules. Hell a few of us practically have rules named after us.

Lol, I just wanted to make sure you didn't take it as one, as it wasn't intended to be

I see, my mistake. It would be a great asset to the forum though, if mods indeed had the ability to ban/restrict access to certain members who flame or break the rules from specific threads.

their forum

their rules

Since this is more of a discussion regarding the 'handling' of topics within the UM forum itself, I'm going to move this to a more appropriate section.

I was suprised at that decision as well BlueZone. I PM'd the moderator in question and learned a little more. Whillst I still disagree with the decision, I was suprised at the mechanism by which the decision was made. It was not a spur-of-the-moment or capricious decision by a single moderator, but had involved a collegiate discussion within the Guild. They may be volunteers, but they seem to take the role pretty seriously.


Well said Bathory. We are not compelled to come here, it is our own free will. If I don't like it, I can join another forum. Heck, you can set up a phpBB bulletin board for next to nothing (other than a lot of hard work). This system (Invasion PowerBoard) costs a little more, but would be well within most peoples (or groups) means. So if we don't like it, why not set our own up ? (Unexpurgated Mysteries ? Unexplained Mysterons ? Unregulated Moaning ? Or perhaps just Unheard Meows).

Meow Purr.

Two points here:

One, i'd like to just refer to the actual number of 'debates' that have been deleted from the forum in the last month.

Out of 180 individual 'items' ( an item being either an individual post or a complete thread ):

- 4 are threads removed for being inapropriately sexually explicit
- 2 are threads removed for promoting the taking of drugs
- 2 are threads removed for being about suicide
- 4 are threads that are racist i.e. one is entitled "white people are more intelligent than blacks"

All the others are either spam (the majority) or individual posts removed from existing threads to prevent the need to close or remove the thread.

To say that we go around deleting debates all the time is a considerable exaggeration and ultimately inaccurate, we intentionally avoid removing or closing long running or constructive discussions if at all possible.

The second point is that the removal or closure of threads which end up in any of these areas are removed because they are inapropriate on many levels and because they violate our forum terms of service. This is not up for debate, the rules we have are there for many reasons; some legal, some contractual, but most are there to keep the forum decent, respectable and as 'family friendly' as possible.

When you registered on this forum you checked a box to say that you understood and agreed to our terms of service. Complaining now that you don't agree with them because they violate 'freedom of speech' is not a valid argument; by participating on this site you accept that your participation falls under those terms and we have every right to remove any thread we deem inapropriate or unsuitable.

Ouch.

Yeah, the truth often *hurts*.

BTW, I know of other discussion sites where there is far less tolerance for differing opinions, and literally *zero* tolerance for rule infractions. Frankly, UM offers a pretty laid back arena for personal expression....Kudos to SaRuMaN for being so easy going!

I don't believe that moderators go around shutting down topics willy nilly, however i do sometimes question the judgment of moderators own impartiality on various subjects.

I was involved in a recent debate, which was based on homosexuality, now, i feel up until my last viewing of that thread, its was a decent, forward thinking collection of theories, which may not have been palatable to all, but did demonstrate well thought through arguments, now, im not sure where in that topic, it was felt that it had crossed the line, and the decision was made to shut down the entire topic!

If moderator intervention is needed then at best, it should be perhaps a warning, followed by closing the topic, which is often done! but the topic remains in the forum, free to view, but closed to further contributions.

I just feel deleting an entire topic, is detrimental to those people who had spent perhaps hours, in collective contribution on a given topic, which they felt passionate about..

The result, an entire waste of time and energy....





BTW, how does one become a moderator...I may be interested! I'm open minded, firm/fair, and a team player!.....i have a military personality! Its what UM is missing..

U can call me Lord Troubleshooter

The general principle is "don't ask us, we'll ask you."

The thread you are referring to was removed when it stopped being a topic on homosexuality and became a discussion on pedophilia and beastiality. It was initially set to invisible and was reviewed by several moderators, including myself. Given the quantity of offensive and inapropriate material that had culiminated in the thread it was decided that it wasn't worth trying to save.


We make no guarantees that any given thread will remain on the boards, there's always the possibility that a topic will be removed.


If I am looking for more moderators and I feel a forum member would be a good candidate then I will contact that person to see if they are interested.

To me a good debate is a healthy one, as long as it's kept in the guidelines...I've read alot of threads where after so many posts, it went off topic and was closed...To those who I have been baited by, I leave the thread, but not before telling them that "It's been a pleasure, and have a good day "....And I won't go back and reply to anything that I read from the baiters....

Yes, I've done that on some occasions. Sometimes, it just doesn't feel like the effort is worth being insulted again

I always find that's the worse form of baiting... "It's been a pleasure" no it hasn't, and they know it....and "have a good day" sniff.. they don't want you to have a good day.. they're just mocking your futile existence..

I'm kidding people..

I'm glad I'm not the only one who does that...There are even times that I get so frustrated, that another member will pop in and say "goalie, your being baited"....I appreciate that, especially when I was new to UM...

That's weird, because just yesterday I was talking with my husband about when some new people join this Site and post to a Thread, or make a new Thread only for some people to virtually bury them, it is a shame, especially if they were to leave because of this.

lol mind you what about when you reply to some thread and your reply may be a bit controversial. You log off, go to bed and when you next log on, there it is, THAT Thread with a reply by a person who continually baits. I hold my breath and open the Thread almost expecting Linda Blair to jump out at me from the monitor

Yeah, that Saruman, he's just a big softy. As Tolkein said... "meddle not in the affairs of wizards, for they hve fluffy slippers and are swift to make cocoa".

Hee hee - just kidding Saruman.
It was a joke... put the staff down... look, there's no need to ZAP ribbit ribbit ribbit.

ribbet croak.

I wonder what Saruman thinks if he reads your post

*sniggers*

I wouldnt call it bashing half the time, more, hard line criticism, which i feel acceptable.




Of course in some cases the moderator has in fact done certain UM members a favor by deleting their posts, ive seen a fare few UM members spared from looking foolish, by the fact their simpleton posts got deleted.............Of course im not pointing any figures...

Based on what I have seen, very few posts are deleted. One must really be offensive in order to be warned or have a post removed. In my experience I have found the moderators to be extremely patient. I remember a few months back, when a poster "The Fletch" offensively insulted almost every member and several moderators...still took two days before he was banned.

But what if I really mean it....

I remember when I first joined...I think it may have been my first post...I speculated about gravity
and put forward a VERY 'far out' idea....then I was set upon by the pack!!!
No-one said welcome or anything...they just got stuck in....but, although I was a bit taken aback...
it didn't put me off....I do feel for a new member, though...when they innocently post something a
bit controvertial...you know...something with no 'proof' (ahhhh,good old proof....)....and they are set
upon....I'm concerned they may not be as stubborn as I was....



I know the feeling...but also....isn't it brilliant when someone bothers to post in support and counter-balances
the 'baiter'/negativity.....

Actually, one of my earliest posts I had proof and was called down so badly that I didn't come back for a while. If you don't agree with my posts, then ignore them. There is absolutely no reason to call anyone down because they don't believe the same things you do. I do not come here to be called stupid, and idiot or any other derogatory insults. I am sure there are some people who are so unhappy in their real lives that they feel in control and powerful to come here and call other's down. There is no need for it. None.

Sorry your Lordship...a litttle off topic there...

On topic...I am surprised, sometimes when a whole thread is locked/removed...rather than the individual
offending posts deleted.

Hmmm... if a thread has entered an "attack/counter-attack" loop involving multiple posters, then deleting individual posts might not stop the shouting. (or rather, it would, but it would take a lot of time and effort to do so, and would leave a rather odd disjointed thread).

I guess some threads are kind of pointless to begin with (or inherently breach the ToC). I've seen moderator comments to the effect of "this thread serves no purpose", or "trainwreck".

With umpty-hundred posts/threads per day, and only around 16 moderators, they can't afford to shilly-shally around.

Meow Purr.