Richard C. Hoagland of Enterprise Mission offered commentary on Tesla, as well as NASA's recently launched Phoenix Mars Lander Mission and other space-related topics.

Richard C. Hoagland is a former space science museum curator; a former NASA consultant, and during the historic Apollo Missions to the Moon, was science advisor to Walter Cronkite and CBS News. For over 20 years, Hoagland has been leading an outside scientific team in a critically acclaimed independent analysis of possible intelligently-designed artifacts on Mars. Richard and his team's investigations have been quietly extended to include over 30 years of previously hidden data from NASA, Soviet, and Pentagon missions to the Moon.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=upFJK7tww3g

While some natural formations are, indeed, impressive, there is nothing alien about them. A hill/mountain, some wind, some loose sand, voila! a pyramid. Would you call a similar formation on the Moon alien constructed? You can see it in a Lunar Orbiter photo. Take an overhead photo of an Egyptian pyramid and show it to an alien and "it" HAS to admit it's not natural. But the Martian pyramid looks natural. After all, that was one "selling point" by Hoagland in Cydonia.

In a documentary Farouk El Baz was shown in front of some natural pyramid shapes in the desert and stated that the Egyptians simply copied the shape.

Well, here it is October 30, 2007

Event Date:Oct. 30, 2007
Event Name:NASA Cover-Ups Continue
Event Type:News Conference
Time:9:00 AM
Sponsored by:Enterprise Mission
Event Location:Zenger Room
Details:Fired NASA Whistleblower to Reveal New Apollo Secrets Kept Classified by Space Agency for Over 40 Years.

Dr. Ken Johnston, former Manager of the Data and Photo Control Division at NASA's Lunar Receiving Laboratory during the manned Apollo Lunar Exploration Effort in the 1970's, was abruptly terminated Tuesday morning, October 23rd, from NASA's prestigious "Solar System Ambassador" (SSA) Program at JPL. The firing was direct reprisal for Johnston's published account in a New York Times Best Seller, "Dark Mission: the Secret History of NASA," of how NASA ordered him, 40 years ago, to destroy key Apollo lunar images and data -- rather than allow them to be preserved for academic study and public view. Johnston will testify at an Enterprise Mission sponsored National Press Club news conference this Tuesday, October 30th (Zenger Room, 9:00 AM) , how he disobeyed these NASA orders, secretly preserving the critical Apollo images. Johnston will then show some of the "missing" Apollo frames -- which confirm the existence of long-rumored "ancient artificial ruins and technology on the Moon," discovered by the Apollo astronauts but legally classified under the 1958 Space Act by NASA for over 40 years.

Johnston will be joined by Richard C. Hoagland, former NASA consultant and CBS News Science Science Advisor during the Apollo lunar missions. Hoagland is coauthor of "Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA," and head of The Enterprise Mission. Hoagland will present an imaging analysis of Johnston's 40-year-old rescued Apollo images, comparing them to modern versions apparently currently being "leaked" by other "whistleblowers" on official NASA websites. He will also demonstrate and analyze one of the secret technologies retrieved by the Apollo crews, relating to the artificial control of gravity. Click HERE for more information

http://npc.press.org/calendar/caldbevent.cfm?eventid=14033

Has any details of this news conference been made public yet?

that's awsome - i CAN NOT wait to hear the details of this (hopefully).

So how does this work? Do we just get to see a transcript of the whole event or will there be actual footage released? Will it be on the news?

Apparently there weren't any newsmen there, just fans of Richard's (and a video guy
working for a Russian TV station). But keep an eye out on the net for any writeups --
I haven't seen a single one, so far.

I want to see pictures dammit!

If Ken shows pictures that show something , I'll by his next book (because, like every one knows, if you got pictures, people will want to know the story)

Hoagland opened his talk by noting that NASA is flying Luke Skywalker's
lightsaber from the movie The Return of the Jedi.

He then noted that the shuttle launched at 11:38 in the morning, despite
concerns about ice.

Then he noted that George Lucas' first movie was... (cue the drumbeat:
DUM DUM DUM!!!)... THX1138.

Coincidence?

Obviously not. NASA chose to deliberately launch the mission at 11:38
because of George Lucas.

Here's my theory:

There are indeed alien ruins on the Moon and NASA knows it.

It wants to keep it secret.

It has hired Hoagland to make the idea appear so patently ridiculous that people will mock the whole concept and ignore any 'leaks' that escape the cover-up.

And it's working.

Don Quixote: The Impossible Dream

KMA, artist

And, I'm being generous to R.H.

Or you could simply polarize the subject... Either NASA 'hides' the 'FACT' that the Mayans built Temples and Pyramids on the Moon and Mars with E.T.'s help, OR NASA is absolutely honest and would always be 'honest with the public' on every issue.

Now you just have a verbal war between the two extremes of the subject. Meanwhile people who know better and might be interested in earnest simply get turned off or drowned out in a Sea of Conspiracy/Counter Conspiracy. For example Roswell is so steeped in conspiracy that some people likely stopped reading this paragraph as soon as they read the word. However, Roswell is a good example of the polarized UFO subject. Any mention of Roswell and people tend to automatically assume you're arguing for E.T. Visitation or for MOGUL. Any suggestion that Roswell might be something other than E.T. or MOGUL is lost (no pun intended).

What else was brought up, and can you provide a link? What about the photos?

A little bit about Dr. Ken Johnston...not much to belittle about him Mr. Oberg, try as you may.

In his own words:


Now for “The Wizard of OZ” coming out behind the curtain. I wasn’t aware that the person questioning my "first hand experience" didn’t know how to type“Ken Johnston” into the Internet and find out about my entire history. However for the record; I am now 65years old. I hold a BS in Aerospace Engineering from Oklahoma City University and two advanced degrees from the Reformed Baptist Seminary, one in Theology and the other PhD in Metaphysics.

I worked at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, TX from 1966 through 1980 for several prime contractors. During the first half of the Apollo program I worked for the Grumman Aerospace Corp. as a Consultant Pilot and Astronaut Liaison officer. I substituted for the Astronauts during over 3,000 hours at the controls of the Lunar Module space craft. There were 5 of us with Grumman that were the test pilots on the LM. One of us had to be in the spacecraft at all times when there was an astronaut present to answer any questions they might have and to help teach them how to fly it. The five of us went through the same training that the Astronauts had including physical fitness, zero-g training, avionics, propulsion, astronautics, etc.

After the Apollo 11 landing on the Moon most of us engineers with Grumman got (RIF) laid off so I moved over to the Lunar Receiving Laboratory where I became the Manager of the Data and Photo Control department which put me in control of all mission photography,which is how I managed to be able to get a set of pictures donated to my Alma mater. Later I worked on the Shuttle Space Suit assembly as an engineer and test subject where I flew hundreds of parabolas in NASA’s KC-135, also known as the “Vomit Comet”. I have done vacuum chamber tests and underwater Zero-G tests. While in the USMC I flew faster than twice the speed of sound in the F-4 Phantom back in 1964. I have flown at over 60,000 feet altitude and know what it is like to be up where the air is really thin. Later I worked for Martin Marietta at Vandenberg AFB during the construction of the Shuttle Launch facility called “Slick 6”. In 1984 I went to work for the Boeing Company where I retired in 1998 as a Boeing 737 Flight Instructor. So I hope this answers some of the questions regarding my first hand experience. I am new to blogging and as a rule I am not much of a computer expert in getting in and out of the blog’s. I hope you will excuse my faults and I will try to be more responsive in the future. Keep up the good work.

Source: http://darkmission.blogspot.com/2007/10/ke...commentors.html


interesting comments made:

Cultural Captivity said... I have no doubts that there are lies being told, or that there is information out there that is being with-held. I don't even doubt that we have already, or will find artifacts from older civilizations all over the place. Look what we've built in just a few thousand years !

There are two competing summaries about who is doing this and why. First is the Alex Jones school of thought - it's all just laid at the feet of "the" government. The cartoon version would have CIA sociopaths tenting their fingers, or NSA snoopers rolling their hands with evil delight. End of story - they did it just because they are evil, or because "we have enemies doncha know". (Someone should ask Alex Jones someday what Henry Kissinger is doing at Bohemian Grove if it's REALLY a Nazi Death Cult). The second school of thought is to see the CIA itself as a support cult (albeit under guise of authority), created in 1947 to replace (enhance) the Pinkerton Men of Wall Street Public Relations. Puppets for the Permanent/Entranched Powers aka the Vested Interests.

If the CIA won't allow infiltration of Hollywood by potentially anti-capitalist interests - why would they not also control NASA in a similar way ? Any conspiracy at NASA would have be subject to the approval of the CIA, or else it would be shut down.

Why isn't it un-American to lie ?

Considering that a well placed rumour could open the public purse, the corporations that serve NASA would benefit from lies, so, after the CIA, that's the second place we should look. What does it cost to start a rumour these days ?

The Freemasons are not Teamsters ... they're like Wal*Mart or McDonald's employees. Lots of smiling "employee of the month" photos, but otherwise, too flaccid and impotent for a semen-al work (hi Sword). Freemasonic symbols are the output of the NASA snake-pit because it's a form of wrapping paper used to conceal the fingerprints of financial supremacists (elitists).

How do we know that a photo is a neutral representation of reality ?

How do we know that it's a mirror reflection of what's really on the surface ?

It doesn't take the prodding of a conspiracy nut for skeptical readers to ask basic questions : How long ago was Paint Shop Pro released to the public ? How long ago was a similar capability available to those who designed the Internet ? Would the people who designed the Internet - defending North America from Soviet missiles be interested in loaning their pre-1970 Paint Shop Pro capabilities to NASA ? It has to be answered to rule it out, which requires consulting the organogram (power flow chart). Would they lend their capability to those who take/fake propaganda pictures that the whole capitalist and communist world will see ? Advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic ... and the old expression "a photo never lies" stopped being accurate sometime before the photos were taken.

Yes, NASA lies. Do they lie about Moon landings ? Moon artifacts ? Can we answer these questions before we follow the money and find out where it's all going ?

Who are the profiteers and what are they willing to do in order to preserve their social security ?

Those would be the questions I would hope to see answered (as a book reader/buyer) before proper context could be given to the Moon photos.

It would be a tragedy to spend that much time and effort, only to wrap up the truths in a bunch of lies. It would be worse to wrap up a lie (like Freemasons control the Universe) with hard-earned truths & facts - because when the lies go down, they take the hard evidence down with them.

October 8, 2007 1:48 AM <A href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17172462170076618847" rel=nofollow>Mike Bara said... All the lunar photos in our book were obtained by scanning from the earliest possible generation analog negatives, and in some cases first generation prints made from first generation negatives that were actually returned from the Moon.

October 8, 2007 8:13 AM

Frankly, I'm pretty skeptical regarding the things Richard Hoagland concludes. Take a look at this article (click) which pretty much covers my misgivings about Mr. Hoagland. Richard Hoagland fairly leaps to conclusions, his methodology is anything but scientific, and I'm not too sure about his motives either. His famous "face on Mars" idea has pretty much been set to rest with the more recent images that show "the face" to be a mesa, not a giant sculpture. All in all, Mr. Hoagland has a bunch of speculations...but not really any solid evidence in support of his ideas.

Hoagland's credentials are hugely questionable.

There is no evidence for him working at the "Springfield Museum of Science" (which isn't even its name) and there is no record of him working at NASA, at all.

His "scientific team" is highly baised, finding only what they want to find. Hoagland is, in short, a huge fraud.

Here's a lengthy account:
http://www.enterprisemission.com/pressirc.html

I've just arrived at this thread so apologies if i'm missing something but are we questioning Ken Johnstons credentials or Hoaglands?. If Johnston is who he says he is .....isn't that all that matters?.
Wheres the beef is the real question and we shall wait and see .....but lets sit on this one for a while and see what happens.

I think what this post is really about is Dr. Ken Johnston and the lunar pics he says he has.

Well, this settles it -- it's in PRAVDA in Moscow:

http://english.pravda.ru/science/mysteries...07/99895-moon-0

U.S. scientists unveil NASA’s secrets about cities on the Moon and microbes on Mars

Good for you james!
At least you admit that nasa is hiding something!

dcman: please do me a favor. You mention above that "New York Times Best Seller, "Dark Mission: the Secret History of NASA," I assume that a review of the book can be found at The New York Times website. But a search there did not come up with any results, especially when narrowed down to Books. So can you supply a source for your mention of a review making the book a "Best Seller."

Glad to read this, Hoagland and Bara do not deserve any coverage. But it might possibly be different on Nov. 4 in California, the press might be well represented but I hope the end result will be plenty of laughs.

NASA needs to go one step further and that's to confiscate ALL telescopes and binoculars, from small amateur ones to Mount Palomar and anything larger. Cause it's time everyone saw the Crater Ukert as imaged by Lunar Orbiter and not as Hoagland wants you to see it in his inferior photos. Crater Ukert does not have the triangular central peak he shows as opposed to the natural but smaller peak seen by L.O. AND shown by Hoagland in his video presentation which he didn't even mention! He probably thought that no one in the audience noticed!

Maybe so, but if you have logic and common sense you won't get lost in the miasma that is modern Roswell. One bit of b.s. that is paraded around by believers and promoters is that the headlines from the local newspaper also appeared worldwide. Try to find mention of it in THE NEW YORK TIMES, a leading world newspaper. If it doesn't appear in that paper, it's not worth the ink.

A short reply to your needlessly-long post: How much can you accept anyone's comments when they've wasted their time achieving "two advanced degrees from the Reformed Baptist Seminary, one in Theology and the other PhD in Metaphysics." Obviously, no matter about his first degree, "a BS in Aerospace Engineering from Oklahoma City University," as his brain was not allowed full rein by the religious baggage that was interfering with his rational thought.

And I mean "BS" sincerely, now get outta here!

Your URL link takes one to an article about Mr Plaitt of Bad Astronomy. One thing about that article that makes me laugh and I wonder what was going through Mr Platt's mind when he claimed that the image on his shower curtain resembled Lenin. It sort-of does but it really looks a lot more like Allen G. Hynek than Lenin. Also more like Colonel Sanders than Lenin.

I may have mispelled Plaitt's name.

Well, the image could be construed to be Hynek or Colonel Sanders...that's the beauty of pareidolia. Just because something resembles something else doesn't necessarily make it so, something that needs to be kept in mind.

I'm not sure what point you're getting at SkepticalEd, Roswell was certainly a historical military event. Whether or not the New York Times covered the event at the time seems somewhat irrelevant to me.

Anyway the New York Times carried the AP version of the story on the front page July 9th 1947.

It depends on what you consider a "historical military event." I'm not one of those that accepts the "alien craft crashed near Roswell and alien bodies were removed, etc." I'm aware of the full history of the event. As an intelligent skeptic I side with reports that explain the real event, not the fanciful b.s. that was born in the late '70s and took off in the '80s. Several well-known authors have dug into the personalities that emerged from a simple report of a non-event that got blown out of proportion and what they reveal is easier to digest than the popular, money-grubbing tales from publicity freaks. The New York Times simplified the tale as it was not privy to the real explanation.

Additionally, I do not accept any tales of crashed alien craft/UFOs.

SkepticalEd,

I guess you don't realize it but you just exemplified the 'polarization' of the subject I pointed out in my post from Oct. 31 that you originally responded to. In that post I wrote, "Any mention of Roswell and people tend to automatically assume you're arguing for E.T. Visitation or for MOGUL. Any suggestion that Roswell might be something other than E.T. or MOGUL is lost (no pun intended)." Here in your post you'll note you've immediately identified yourself as not "one of those" who accepts the "alien craft crashed near Roswell..." (E.T.) people. Then you argue for the 'explanation" for the "real event" (MOGUL) which you also say is "easier to digest" as a self described "intelligent skeptic".

You've demonstrated exactly the point I was making that "Roswell" is a great example of a polarized subject/event(s) and any mention of "Roswell" and we spark a "war between the two extremes of the subject" (E.T. visitation, or MOGUL Balloon). Other possiblities simply are forgotten or drowned out in the insuing "verbal war between the two extremes of the subject" (E.T. visitation, or MOGUL Balloon).


One of the more readily recognized Logical Fallacies is called "False Delimma" which can be described simply as an either/or arguement. For example two extreme arguements, "All Bubble Gum is Red" or "All Bubble Gum is Blue" (False Delimma), when in fact "Bubble Gum" can be and is in fact any color we choose to dye it. The polarization of any subject by the public is also basically a public version of the "False Delimma" Logical Fallacy because only two extremes of the possiblity spectrum get disscussed in mass. i.e. the "Sea of Conspiracy/Counter Conspiracy" (False Dilemma).

Now my original point is simply if an 'Authority' wished to distract or hide something, 'polarizing the subject' can certainly deflect public attention effectively.

There is only one real explanation for what took place near Roswell. I was 9 years old at the time so that was not part of my world. But as I matured and learned of the world situation in 1947 and how it was the U.S. vs. the U.S.S.R. and the highly volatile atmosphere between the two world superpowers, it was evident to me that the explanation of the original report of what happened near Roswell was a balloon rather than an alien craft was the more plausible one. IF it had been a real alien craft, the story would not have died down, trust me. But it did until sensationalism became the operative word in the resurrected event. It no longer was dependent on the truth but on the fantasy.

I accept that William "Mac" Brazel found the remnants of an alleged secret military project. I accept that what he found and later confirmed by others consisted of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks and was so photographed. This is the same material I handled when I accompanied my professional photographer brother-in-law when we went to Washington to photograph the debris for a cover story in the June 2003 issue of Popular Mechanics magazine.

SkepticalEd,

Again you are absolutely exemplifying the point I was making!

By my action of simply mentioning 'Roswell' as an example of a 'polarized subject' it caused you to "argue" that MOGUL Balloons are "more plausible" than an "alien craft"!

My entire point here is that people become conditioned to argue the 'extremes' of a subject while the likely or true answers are drowned out or ignored.









WOW! So you actually got to handle a Neoprene and a RAWIN! You must be an expert then?

I especially like the way you described the Neoprene/RAWIN combo like you were yourself a "Roswell" witness describing 'unknown material'. That was priceless! Now for your information I have found TWO of these Neoprene/RAWIN combos "Crashed" in my front yard that was a cotton field in North Texas at the time in the early 1980's. Those were exactly the same thing we see in the Ramey office photos! Thus I'm not impressed by someone who claims to have been to a Museum.

It became obvious that no balloon of any kind was responsible for the Roswell incident since the Air Force made up that story, and concurred by Congressman Steven Schiff (R-NM).



To this very day, the Rowell story is still ongoing!



The proven fantasies relating to the Roswell incident are the cover stories that were concocted by military over the years.



According to Mac Brazel's son, the Army told his father that what the material was not ours. Since the military was unaware of any project of theirs lying on the Foster ranch until they were notified later, proves that what was found on that ranch was not any secret project of the military, and once again, because the military didn't know a thing about any crash involving any classified equipment of theirs.

I must also add that Mogul balloon trains were not classified at all and occasionally recovered by ordinary civilians for rewards. Rancher Sid West, was one of those who recovered a downed Mogul balloon yet no saucer story for his recovery nor those of others who had recovered downed Mogul balloons. The military made up that cover story on a Mogul balloon flight #4 that never was, and that is why there are no flight nor other records of any kind pertaining to a Mogul balloon flight #4.

That is why some researchers are beginning to see the light that there were no such flight and now understand that the military had concocted a false cover story, but apparently, many folks took the bait.

To recap, how could the recovered Roswell object have been part of a secret project of the military since the military was totally unaware of any secret project of theirs lying in a field at that time?



But, according to those who posed with the debris, that is not what was recovered on the Foster ranch and a document has shown that it was suggested that a rawin device be used to carry forward a cover-up, and I might add that the rawin device in the photos are hand-torn remains of a rawin device that had nothing to do with the object that is responsible for the Roswell incident.



Go to your nearest Air Force base and throw that same stuff on the desk of the Wing Commander and see if you can convince him the material is from a flying saucer. It is amazing that the Air Force concocted such sloppy cover stories and yet, many people believed the Air Force regardless.

The government could say that it was a flying pig that crashed in rosswell, and some of these de-bunkers would believe it. I dont know what crashed in roswell, but its so obvious that there is still some sort of cover up. There are some people out there that would believe anything the government says, and the government loves these people .

Greetings skyeagle409: I knew that you would eventually jump in as you've done in the past with your supporting "evidence."

Congressman Steven Schiff (R-NM) is/was a fool. Surprising that he rose to his position which proves that most government politicos are fools, exemplified by MR Clinton, and now by his wife.

Of course the Roswell fiasco is still going, it's good press thanks, mostly, to loud-mouth Nuklear Radiator Stanton Friedman. The man caught the ball and he's been a runaway ever since. Can't let good money and notoriety get away.

You are right that the Roswell incident has been proven to be fantasy.

Sorry, but the material "Mac" Brazel found is what it is. His son is similar to Marcel's son, loose in the head 'cause if he stuck to the truth, he'd be out of financial picture, which Marcel's son is enjoying to the fullest.

Perhaps you are correct that Mogul balloon trains were not classified at all and occasionally recovered by ordinary civilians for rewards but "Mac" Brazel was not knowledgeable about, by his reported behavior, and neither were the local military. Keep in mind that Brazel seems to have been a simple man, not privy to the unfolding world of technology around him. Can you visualize his living conditions? I can; primitive!

1947 times, primitive.

I accept the research results as authored by Karl T. Pflock in "Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe," and Kal K. Korff in "The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know." And others.

I prefer the original reports, not the later fantasies. Because the original reports proved to be correct, the Roswell "Incident" disappeared from public view. The fantasies arrived at a time when the public was less intelligent and not challenging to fantastic reports of non-events.

Probably influenced Carl Sagan to publicize his famous quotation as seen in Cosmos: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." (This was actually based on a nearly identical earlier quote by fellow CSICOP founder Marcello Truzzi, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." The quote is also known, under different wording, as the principle of Laplace — attributed to Pierre-Simon Marquis de Laplace (1749-1827), a French mathematician and astronomer: "The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness."

Unfortunately, this has failed with the Roswell incident as nobody was effective in convincing the public of the falsity of modern day Roswell incident claims.

Right!
Governent said it was a crappy ballon that fell. All de-bunkers, as they do, be;lieved it straight away, while at the same time, running down the people who believed it was not a balloon. Then they said it was project M, then all the de-bunkers believed that. Can anyone see a pattern here? What next? It was a secret craft with controlled by monkys?

The thing is, people will believe whatever some government or de-bunking king will say. Just look at rendleshem case, and you will know this.

The rosswell incident, though im not convinced it is ET, still has many holes, esp with project M, and the dummies. Also, not everyone who see's a ufo, or is interested in ufos are in it for the money, and stan is def not one of them. He has dedicated his life to the subject, and deserves some respect.

I am sure that in the future, the government will come out with another explanation, and some de-bunkers will do what they always do and agree with what they say. Its a shame really because some de-bunkers are more interested in finding stupid explanations for some cases, just so it does not stay unexplained.

You know, it might benefit you to study debunking. No matter how little effort you put into it, it'll definitely make you a smarter person.

Why do i have to study de-bunking, why would it make me smart, or as smart as you?

You've got that right!



Actually, Congressman Schiff had found out what other Roswell investigators had already known.



LOOK Magazine did a stint in the late 1960s with a photo of Newton posing with the rawin debris in Ramey's office.



Apparently, it wasn't a fantasy by the fact that many military personnel and civilians were involved, so we know that something extraordinary happened and that is why the Air Force has spent lots of dollars trying to keep a tight lid on what happened and it wouldn't be doing so over a fantasy.



According to his daughter, the stuff they found was strange and never seen before, which rules out balsa wood and tin foil because such material was already well-known and identifiable by school-aged children and of course, the Army told Brazel the material wasn't made by us, which would correspond to the testimony of Brazel's daughter of the strange material they have never seen before.



Of course they stuck to the truth, which would throw some light as to why the Air Force's ridicules cover stories don't add up.



Of couse I am correct. and I have already reviewed the Mogul balloon records, and that is how I was able to ascertain that no Mogul balloon of any kind was involved in the Roswell incident, and we can revert back to Congressman Schiff's statement that no balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident.



What difference does that make? Other civilians who recovered downed Mogul balloons didn't jump on the UFO bandwagon and were not taken into custody over their recoveries of downed Mogul balloons nor did the military concoct cover stories for Mogul balloons that were recovered by ordinary civilians. Mogul balloons were no more classified than a typical weather balloon.



Karl Pflock doesn't know that much about what has been going on, and Tim Printy used him as a reference, and as a result, Tim Printy got burnt. Have you read Tim's correction on his own website? You will note that he used Karl Pflock as a reference. In other words, when Tim was drowning in the waters of Kirtland AFB, and the Air Force's C-54 in regards to the Roswell incident, Karl Pflock threw Tim an anchor instead of a life vest and Tim made the grap and the rest is history.

You mentioned Kal K. Korff, and you might want to find other clues as to why the Air Force has been trying very hard to keep us from knowng what they don't want us to know.

"or as smart as you?" No, but it's a good beginning!

I take it that my point is confirmed. Any mention of 'Roswell' sparks a "verbal war between the two extremes" MOGUL and E.T. Visitation. Everything else beside MOGUL and E.T. get drowned out in the ensuing "verbal war" between MOGUL Balloons and E.T. Visitation!

EVEN WHEN I'M POINTING THIS OUT ON A THREAD FOR EVEYONE TO SEE!!! Someone starts promoting MOGUL after I mentioned 'Roswell' and someone else jumps in to promote E.T. Visitation!

This reaction on this thread to my simple mention of 'Roswell' is exactly why I choose 'Roswell' as an example of a 'polarized subject'! That's also the reason that the 'polarization of a subject' can be GREAT Propaganda! We might even go so far as to say a 'polarized subject' is the root of all GREAT Propaganda!

Now if you can follow my idea of a 'polarized subject' then relating that to this thread should come fairly easy. The two extremes would be either (1)NASA knows about the Face on Mars and has proof of extra-planetary Human Civilizations OR (2) NASA has never seen or heard of any UFO!!!

'Polarizing' any subject lets you fail to admit or deny any 'subject' because you can simply encourage the two extremes while remaining silent on the issue itself.

Sorry, but im not as wrapped up in the "im so smart" as you are. Maybe you get a kick out of telling people how smart you are, maybe it makes you feel better, who knows.

tick tick tick - sorry i forgot to tock, blushes and thinks about this thread for a moment, then understands why humans are humans, and life is the way it is. (WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT) And thats a good thing...
Having a greater understanding of somethings does not make a person better than another, just more savy. Some people on here and other forums come across as brain drain geeks, i bet they can't spin plates on sticks though, i can.

Let's look at what we do know.

First of all, the military reported that they had recovered a flying saucer.




That press release was based on what was recovered and what Colonel William Blanchard, the commander, saw for himself. Putting myself in his shoes, I definitely would not have told the whole world that we have just recovered a flying saucer based on pieces of tin foil and broken balsa wood, and I definitely would not allowed my press officer to take that story to the newspapers if not true. I don't think that I would have been promoted to my next rank by the military had I truly mistaken ordinary balsa wood and tin foil as a flying saucer, making the U.S. military the laughing stock in the eyes of the whole world and that would not have been good for the careers of either Blanchard and Marcel, especially during those days when the military was quite different than it is today.

Before and after the Roswell incident, there were reports of flying saucers over the general area and some of those reports were made by scientist and engineers at White Sands, New Mexico. We already know that no Mogul balloons were involved, and Colonel Blanchard would not have told the world that they recovered a flying saucer over the remains of a downed Mogul balloon train anyway, which would be ridicules to the "max" since Mogul balloons were not classified and had labels, ID and reward tags, and questionnaires attached, so there was no way that a downed Mogul balloon could have been mis-identified as an extraterrestrial flying saucer.

In addition, there were common gauges and other hardware that would have been easily recognized by most anyone and not be confused as a flying saucer. Mogul balloons had been recovered by civilians in the past and there were no saucer story on the level of the Roswell press release and no commander in their right mind is going to try and cover-up a downed classified project by telling the whole world that their classified project is actually an alien flying saucer. The name of the game is to deflect attention away from a downed classified project, or not say a word at all and not bring the eyes of the whole world to the location of any downed classified object of the military.

The fact the military knew nothing of any crash at that time, clearly indicates that what crashed, was not a classified project of the military at all, so it is difficult for me to understand as to why there are those who still think that the Roswell incident involved a balloon train that wasn't classified in the first place! The military is not perfect, but I can safely say that if a B-2 bomber crashed today, the military will definitely know about it and not wait several days to be notified by civilian authorities before acting, much less a month later!!!

Perhaps people see me as bias toward to the ETH, but I have a very good reason as to why I am the way I am, because I saw one with my own eyes while serving in the military at one base, and that in addition to another former base of mine, which was involved in investigations of other UFO incidents, one of which was brought up at the Disclosure Project, and some of my compatriots were also involved in yet another UFO incident, so I know beyond any doubt that UFOs are quite real and not ours, but there is still more, a whole lot more, and another reason why I am tenacious toward UFO debunkers.

Ignoring very important clues only serves to further cloud the UFO enigma.

I simply answered your simple questions. Look to yourself.

True. But isn't it also true that that afternoon the subject was 'polarized' by claiming the 'flying saucer' was a 'weather balloon'? That's the only point I'm making here is that 'Roswell' is a perfect example of a 'polarized' subject.

I like to argue that no matter what happened the historical record tells us that 'Roswell' was the first counter intelligence operation conducted by the military against the U.S. public which was nation-wide and invloved 'Flying Saucers' which later become 'UFOs'. In fact 'Weather Balloons' as a generic explanation for 'Flying Saucers' and 'UFOs' can be traced back to the days following Kenneth Arnold's sighting just days before 'Roswell'! Of course it was ONLY the day after 'Roswell' that the Military services co-ordinated a nation-wide Weather Balloon demonstration for the Press involving the Navy, Army, and Army Air Force!

My original point was directed towards Oberg and the idea of the either/or arguement. As Oberg said, "make the idea appear so patently ridiculous that people will mock the whole concept". To which I pointed out that you could also "simply polarize the subject..." to achieve the same goal! I then gave 'Roswell' as an example and I said that IMO many people likely stopped reading my post after they read the word 'Roswell'! I pointed out that my own mention of the word 'Roswell' as an example of a 'polarized' subject would likely 'spark a verbal war' between people arguing the E.T. Visitation and MOGUL Balloons!

You ask "what do we know"? One thing we "know" as fact is that 'Weather Balloons' became the "National" default Military explaination for 'Flying Saucers' and later 'UFOs' on July 9th 1947!

If you don't believe that's true I've got Ocean Front Property in Colorado I can sell cheap!!! I'll even give fellow "Skeptics" a 25% discount because I love you guys! Plus you're so much smarter than average people!

Besides all that, everyone already knows that News Papers and Governments would absoluetly NEVER LIE to people or EVER accept Paychecks from the CIA! Thanks to Senator Frank Church we know that NEVER happens!!!

To get this thread back on theme ...

Someone using the handle “Professor Fulcanelli” has written a long critique of the numerology in ‘Dark Mission’, for the Amazon website, linked here:

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3QFPW3IZU4OQ...cm_cr_rdp_perm/

Come on over and join in!

Speaking of weather balloons, many folks are unaware that the National Weather Service in Richmond, Virginia, were reporting "flying saucers" months before Kenneth Arnold's sighting.





We all know how honest the government is, particularly the CIA. And, we can't forget all of those weather balloon demonstrations right after the Roswell incident.

http://roswellproof.homestead.com/balloondemos.html

All of that time and effort in presenting a false-face in 1947 for the public in regards to those balloon demonstrations so the military could convince the public--which it did--that what was found on the Foster ranch was nothing more than a weather balloon. All of that tax money gone to waste because after 47 years, the military finally admitted that it wasn't a weather balloon after all!

At least in 1994, the Air Force was honest enough to admit that no weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident.

I often wonder why NASA never sent a spacecraft lander to the Cydonia region or other particular areas of interest on Mars. Perhaps, and I hope, they will in the not-so-distant future.

Because it is only of interest to you, not them.