This has been going over in my mind for a while.
If some people believe that this life is all there is and afterwards there is nothing, their bodies just decomposing and then nothing at all and these same people do not believe in God at all, why is it that they do not run riot, do what they wish, commit crime, murder and anything else that takes their fancy. After all, they have nothing to answer to, do they?
In some people's minds there is no soul, therefore would I be correct in supposing they do not believe they have a conscience either? If they think they have no soul but they do have a conscience, what do they think this "conscience" is?
Apart from being incarcerated in a prison for committing such crimes, what stops them if they have no God to answer to? Or perhaps is it some subconscious belief, buried deep, that there is indeed something else and this prevents them from doing certain things, they just do not recognize it?
The interesting thing is though, that the vast majority of these people stay on the straight and narrow - why?
It seems a stupid question, I know. I was just very curious.
Full Version: If there is no God to some people.....
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs
I think most have a moral decency. They know it is wrong to murder, steal...etc.
QUOTE (Lotus Flower @ Oct 28 2007, 09:45 PM) 
This has been going over in my mind for a while.
If some people believe that this life is all there is and afterwards there is nothing, their bodies just decomposing and then nothing at all and these same people do not believe in God at all, why is it that they do not run riot, do what they wish, commit crime, murder and anything else that takes their fancy. After all, they have nothing to answer to, do they?
In some people's minds there is no soul, therefore would I be correct in supposing they do not believe they have a conscience either? If they think they have no soul but they do have a conscience, what do they think this "conscience" is?
Apart from being incarcerated in a prison for committing such crimes, what stops them if they have no God to answer to? Or perhaps is it some subconscious belief, buried deep, that there is indeed something else and this prevents them from doing certain things, they just do not recognize it?
The interesting thing is though, that the vast majority of these people stay on the straight and narrow - why?
It seems a stupid question, I know. I was just very curious.
If some people believe that this life is all there is and afterwards there is nothing, their bodies just decomposing and then nothing at all and these same people do not believe in God at all, why is it that they do not run riot, do what they wish, commit crime, murder and anything else that takes their fancy. After all, they have nothing to answer to, do they?
In some people's minds there is no soul, therefore would I be correct in supposing they do not believe they have a conscience either? If they think they have no soul but they do have a conscience, what do they think this "conscience" is?
Apart from being incarcerated in a prison for committing such crimes, what stops them if they have no God to answer to? Or perhaps is it some subconscious belief, buried deep, that there is indeed something else and this prevents them from doing certain things, they just do not recognize it?
The interesting thing is though, that the vast majority of these people stay on the straight and narrow - why?
It seems a stupid question, I know. I was just very curious.
I don't do those things because I don't need a God to force me to be a good person. I'm just a good person. And as for the consciousness, I believe it is more than the brain. Maybe a soul, maybe a spirit, who knows? I believe there is more to humans than meets the eye... or telescope XD.
QUOTE (EmpressStarXVII @ Oct 29 2007, 02:53 AM)
I think most have a moral decency. They know it is wrong to murder, steal...etc.
Yes, that's what I mean, why would it be wrong to them if there is nothing to answer to and when they die, life just finishes completely?
QUOTE (Zero of Deism @ Oct 29 2007, 03:00 AM)
I don't do those things because I don't need a God to force me to be a good person. I'm just a good person. And as for the consciousness, I believe it is more than the brain. Maybe a soul, maybe a spirit, who knows? I believe there is more to humans than meets the eye... or telescope XD.
Thank Zero
, you believe there is something, as you say, soul, spirit, which possibly stops you doing some things?btw what's telescope XD?
QUOTE (EmpressStarXVII @ Oct 28 2007, 07:53 PM)
I think most have a moral decency. They know it is wrong to murder, steal...etc.
They know it's wrong how? Who define right and wrong if not God?
QUOTE (Zero of Deism @ Oct 28 2007, 08:00 PM)
I don't do those things because I don't need a God to force me to be a good person. I'm just a good person.
What makes denying you instinct to murder "good"? Suppose someone makes you so angry you want to kill them, why should you be a "good" person and murder them? Who defines "good" for you?
QUOTE (Knight of Zion (COI) @ Oct 29 2007, 03:06 AM)
They know it's wrong how? Who define right and wrong if not God?
What makes denying you instinct to murder "good"? Suppose someone makes you so angry you want to kill them, why should you be a "good" person and murder them? Who defines "good" for you?
What makes denying you instinct to murder "good"? Suppose someone makes you so angry you want to kill them, why should you be a "good" person and murder them? Who defines "good" for you?
Hi COI
You worded it a lot better than I did. I was finding it increasingly difficult to describe what I meant.
This subject has been baffling me to ages!
QUOTE (Lotus Flower @ Oct 28 2007, 08:08 PM)
Hi COI
You worded it a lot better than I did. I was finding it increasingly difficult to describe what I meant.
This subject has been baffling me to ages!
You worded it a lot better than I did. I was finding it increasingly difficult to describe what I meant.
This subject has been baffling me to ages!
Lol, I personally believe that just because a person doesn't believe in God doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. God does exist and he endowed onto all men his "image" (which is our soul)...thus the reason that a person like Zero defines "good" as not murdering and all that stuff is because of th divine spark within him that tells his animalistic nature that those things are inappropriate.
I might have one life to live...but there's billions of others sharing that life with me..I must respect them..and when I die I must find solace in the fact that while I was alive I did nothing to harm anyone else's time on this planet..
QUOTE (Lotus Flower @ Oct 29 2007, 03:45 AM)
This has been going over in my mind for a while.
If some people believe that this life is all there is and afterwards there is nothing, their bodies just decomposing and then nothing at all and these same people do not believe in God at all, why is it that they do not run riot, do what they wish, commit crime, murder and anything else that takes their fancy. After all, they have nothing to answer to, do they?
In some people's minds there is no soul, therefore would I be correct in supposing they do not believe they have a conscience either? If they think they have no soul but they do have a conscience, what do they think this "conscience" is?
Apart from being incarcerated in a prison for committing such crimes, what stops them if they have no God to answer to? Or perhaps is it some subconscious belief, buried deep, that there is indeed something else and this prevents them from doing certain things, they just do not recognize it?
The interesting thing is though, that the vast majority of these people stay on the straight and narrow - why?
It seems a stupid question, I know. I was just very curious.
If some people believe that this life is all there is and afterwards there is nothing, their bodies just decomposing and then nothing at all and these same people do not believe in God at all, why is it that they do not run riot, do what they wish, commit crime, murder and anything else that takes their fancy. After all, they have nothing to answer to, do they?
In some people's minds there is no soul, therefore would I be correct in supposing they do not believe they have a conscience either? If they think they have no soul but they do have a conscience, what do they think this "conscience" is?
Apart from being incarcerated in a prison for committing such crimes, what stops them if they have no God to answer to? Or perhaps is it some subconscious belief, buried deep, that there is indeed something else and this prevents them from doing certain things, they just do not recognize it?
The interesting thing is though, that the vast majority of these people stay on the straight and narrow - why?
It seems a stupid question, I know. I was just very curious.
Morality is believed to be genetically in built, it is an import survival trait for a social animal such as us. Its not a case of having no one to answer to, social morality was around before religion because it is important to human social survival.
QUOTE (InHuman @ Oct 29 2007, 03:25 AM)
I might have one life to live...but there's billions of others sharing that life with me..I must respect them..and when I die I must find solace in the fact that while I was alive I did nothing to harm anyone else's time on this planet..
Inhuman, this is what confuses me though. Some people consider that there is absolutely nothing after death, therefore when they die, (in their mind), they will not even exist in order to worry if they have harmed another. I am so curious as to what stops them.
By your own words, am I correct in assuming that you believe you do indeed go on to another place?
I wonder, if people really thought about it, those that always said there is nothing after death, no God etc etc, I am interested to know if they still come to this conclusion when they question their own morals - I mean why have any if there is nothing afterwards.......
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Oct 29 2007, 03:30 AM)
Morality is believed to be genetically in built, it is an import survival trait for a social animal such as us. Its not a case of having no one to answer to, social morality was around before religion because it is important to human social survival.
Yes survival is definitely a good explanation.
The only thing is, what would stop some people for instance, stealing things - even when there is no chance of them being caught...... but they don't
Seriously, does anyone else think the whole thing is peculiar?
Because of the police?
QUOTE (Lotus Flower @ Oct 29 2007, 04:37 AM)
Yes survival is definitely a good explanation.
The only thing is, what would stop some people for instance, stealing things - even when there is no chance of them being caught...... but they don't
Seriously, does anyone else think the whole thing is peculiar?
The only thing is, what would stop some people for instance, stealing things - even when there is no chance of them being caught...... but they don't
Seriously, does anyone else think the whole thing is peculiar?
Again I would suggest social insitinct, we are naturally inclined to fit in socially and to conform to our peers.
QUOTE (Lotus Flower @ Oct 28 2007, 08:45 PM)
This has been going over in my mind for a while.
If some people believe that this life is all there is and afterwards there is nothing, their bodies just decomposing and then nothing at all and these same people do not believe in God at all, why is it that they do not run riot, do what they wish, commit crime, murder and anything else that takes their fancy. After all, they have nothing to answer to, do they?
In some people's minds there is no soul, therefore would I be correct in supposing they do not believe they have a conscience either? If they think they have no soul but they do have a conscience, what do they think this "conscience" is?
Apart from being incarcerated in a prison for committing such crimes, what stops them if they have no God to answer to? Or perhaps is it some subconscious belief, buried deep, that there is indeed something else and this prevents them from doing certain things, they just do not recognize it?
The interesting thing is though, that the vast majority of these people stay on the straight and narrow - why?
It seems a stupid question, I know. I was just very curious.
If some people believe that this life is all there is and afterwards there is nothing, their bodies just decomposing and then nothing at all and these same people do not believe in God at all, why is it that they do not run riot, do what they wish, commit crime, murder and anything else that takes their fancy. After all, they have nothing to answer to, do they?
In some people's minds there is no soul, therefore would I be correct in supposing they do not believe they have a conscience either? If they think they have no soul but they do have a conscience, what do they think this "conscience" is?
Apart from being incarcerated in a prison for committing such crimes, what stops them if they have no God to answer to? Or perhaps is it some subconscious belief, buried deep, that there is indeed something else and this prevents them from doing certain things, they just do not recognize it?
The interesting thing is though, that the vast majority of these people stay on the straight and narrow - why?
It seems a stupid question, I know. I was just very curious.
I think you have a very sad and narrow view of what being a human is. Human beings are smart, we understand that our actions have implications to other sentient beings and through our empathy we can understand those implications. Technically speaking, it would not matter if I ran out and killed someone right now, the universe is indifferent and only one thing would change, when change always happens. But I can understand that as myself and that other human have been gifted with an awareness of our surroundings and a perception to experience them with, it would be wrong of me to do that to another person, taking away their awareness and endangering my own. Humans have evolved and survived through working together, not killing each other. This draws us to work together and we form societies and communities and we progress. To think that I need an executioner waiting for me once I die in order to force me into acting kindly is quite a sad assumption. It is my own simple observation that doing good things will spread good in mine and other peoples' direction; and bad will do the reverse.
For me it isnt about wether i believe there is something after or not . that would imply that i expected to be judged . the only person who judges me is myself and if i was to commit an act that was bad say murder . I would have to live with it now . could i live with it on my conciense (sp) . thats the question and the answer is NO .so therefore i wouldnt commit it . not because of any fear of being judged after but being judged now by myself . thats why i believe people dont go out and do terrible things . we have morals and we have a conciense .
blessings SS79 x x x
blessings SS79 x x x
Strange is our situation here on Earth. Each of us comes for a short visit, not knowing why, yet sometimes seeming to divine a purpose. From the standpoint of daily life, however, there is one thing we do know: that man is here for the sake of other men- above all for those upon whose smiles and well-being our own happiness depends.
If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
-Albert Einstein
Lotus, Do you really mean to tell me the only reason you try to be good is to gain god's approval and reward, or to avoid his disapproval and punishment? That's not morality, that's just sucking up.
If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
-Albert Einstein
Lotus, Do you really mean to tell me the only reason you try to be good is to gain god's approval and reward, or to avoid his disapproval and punishment? That's not morality, that's just sucking up.
I try to do no harm as I am an animal with a central nervous system and can experience pain and therefore understand it is not a desirable state to be in.
As a pack animal the emotional and physical state of others in the pack/tribe affects me also. If I see someone on T.V crying in a sad situation sometimes their tears will make me cry also. Hence I do not want to cause pain.
I have also experienced throughout my life that if I cause other pain, whether than be financial/physical/emotional sometimes I will face retribution which again causes me pain.
I find it weird that people need a big angry man in the sky meting out retribution to keep them in line. Sometimes that makes me afraid of religious people. Like if they suddenly didn't believe they would run amok. Or they read something in their holy book that inspires them to kill/hurt others they find 'undesirable' like homosexuals or infidels.
Perhaps us atheists are just more moral people! JOKES JOKES!!!
As a pack animal the emotional and physical state of others in the pack/tribe affects me also. If I see someone on T.V crying in a sad situation sometimes their tears will make me cry also. Hence I do not want to cause pain.
I have also experienced throughout my life that if I cause other pain, whether than be financial/physical/emotional sometimes I will face retribution which again causes me pain.
I find it weird that people need a big angry man in the sky meting out retribution to keep them in line. Sometimes that makes me afraid of religious people. Like if they suddenly didn't believe they would run amok. Or they read something in their holy book that inspires them to kill/hurt others they find 'undesirable' like homosexuals or infidels.
Perhaps us atheists are just more moral people! JOKES JOKES!!!
I am struggling to explain myself here...Regardless of my beliefs, I don't associate my everyday not going out and killing people or stealing, with anything other than that I wouldn't want the same to happen to me. All I know is that I don't not do bad things out of fear.
I know it is somewhat a cliche, but...treat others the way you want to be treated.
I know it is somewhat a cliche, but...treat others the way you want to be treated.
I and many others do not need a God to tell them what is wrong (harmful to others) to do. Even if I don't believe in an afterlife, why would should I feel that it's ok to cause harm to others?
Pain=bad (to most people atleast :wink: ) I don't like when people cause me pain, so why should I harm others?
Atheists believe that we have one life. We better damn well make this the best experience possible. Having a lot of enemies is not usually the way to go about that
It also baffles me that people can actually think that the only thing holding the "moral" fiber of this planet together is the hand of a God threatening to punish us in the afterlife.
Pain=bad (to most people atleast :wink: ) I don't like when people cause me pain, so why should I harm others?
Atheists believe that we have one life. We better damn well make this the best experience possible. Having a lot of enemies is not usually the way to go about that
It also baffles me that people can actually think that the only thing holding the "moral" fiber of this planet together is the hand of a God threatening to punish us in the afterlife.
QUOTE (Betsy @ Oct 29 2007, 12:35 PM)
I try to do no harm as I am an animal with a central nervous system and can experience pain and therefore understand it is not a desirable state to be in.
As a pack animal the emotional and physical state of others in the pack/tribe affects me also. If I see someone on T.V crying in a sad situation sometimes their tears will make me cry also. Hence I do not want to cause pain.
I have also experienced throughout my life that if I cause other pain, whether than be financial/physical/emotional sometimes I will face retribution which again causes me pain.
I find it weird that people need a big angry man in the sky meting out retribution to keep them in line. Sometimes that makes me afraid of religious people. Like if they suddenly didn't believe they would run amok. Or they read something in their holy book that inspires them to kill/hurt others they find 'undesirable' like homosexuals or infidels.
Perhaps us atheists are just more moral people! JOKES JOKES!!!
As a pack animal the emotional and physical state of others in the pack/tribe affects me also. If I see someone on T.V crying in a sad situation sometimes their tears will make me cry also. Hence I do not want to cause pain.
I have also experienced throughout my life that if I cause other pain, whether than be financial/physical/emotional sometimes I will face retribution which again causes me pain.
I find it weird that people need a big angry man in the sky meting out retribution to keep them in line. Sometimes that makes me afraid of religious people. Like if they suddenly didn't believe they would run amok. Or they read something in their holy book that inspires them to kill/hurt others they find 'undesirable' like homosexuals or infidels.
Perhaps us atheists are just more moral people! JOKES JOKES!!!
I feel that you have just answered the op perfectly! And to think that many religious people view Atheists has having no morals or gudelines to live by!! Again a great post Betsy!
By the way I think it is a very good question!
Thanks heaps dante! I became vegan years ago and some of the debates about pain, why we do and don't hurt others are pretty similar. I think it's really good that someone with a strong belief system is asking these questions.
QUOTE
You don't want people like me to believe there is no after life. If there is no judgement then I have no remorse for anything I do. If there's nothing to believe in then everything that happens in MY life is just for MY enjoyment.
QUOTE (Lotus Flower @ Oct 28 2007, 10:45 PM)
In some people's minds there is no soul, therefore would I be correct in supposing they do not believe they have a conscience either? If they think they have no soul but they do have a conscience, what do they think this "conscience" is?
Apart from being incarcerated in a prison for committing such crimes, what stops them if they have no God to answer to? Or perhaps is it some subconscious belief, buried deep, that there is indeed something else and this prevents them from doing certain things, they just do not recognize it?
Apart from being incarcerated in a prison for committing such crimes, what stops them if they have no God to answer to? Or perhaps is it some subconscious belief, buried deep, that there is indeed something else and this prevents them from doing certain things, they just do not recognize it?
Conscience, to me, is being able to look at myself in the mirror each morning, knowing that I did the best I could the day(s) before. Knowing that I have harmed no one, and perhaps even helped someone.
As to the second, it is easy.
Would I like to have the things I have worked hard for taken from me? No, so I do not take from others.
Would I like to be the victim of violence? No, so I do not harm others.
Would I like to feel sad and hurt? No, so I do not cause others to feel the same.
Would I like to be murdered? No, so I do not murder others.
Would I like to be hated, and the victim of prejudice? No, so I do my best to not be prejuduced and hateful towards others.
One of the few good things to come out of the bible, which is mirroered in pagan beliefs is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", which is very similar to "Do no Harm".
For myself, I do not need the incentive of a disapproving deity looking over my shoulder, to make sure I do right.
...But think about the cults, people's minds washed into murdering and committing suicide... Religion can be good and bad. Some people belonging to cults think that they must sacrifice themselves to get to heaven. Even kill to get to heaven. It's not right. What is right in my mind is not any kind of religion, it's just enjoy life to the fullest, and allow others to enjoy theirs too.
As a young girl I was bought up in a Christian house...Church, ccd's., etc...and was taught that commiting any kind of wrong would stay with us forever, and when we died we would automatically go to hell....As I got older, and through my adult years, I decided to stop practicing Christianity, but I do believe in God...Just not the way we were bought up...What has always stayed with me were the morals taught by my parents....I was bought up to know right from wrong and so were my kids and now my grandchildren...Conscience also plays a very important part...I couldn't live with myself, had I ever committed a crime or intentionally hurt someone...It all boils down to knowing right from wrong...
Being good can make you feel happy. Being bad can make you feel sad. Putting it very simply.
QUOTE
I was bought up to know right from wrong and so were my kids and now my grandchildren
So let me ask you then, what do you teach your kids about killing other people? What do they learn from your example? If there isn't a strong organized religious presence in your household, from where do your kids get their ideas of right and wrong?
QUOTE (KBA @ Oct 29 2007, 03:57 AM)
I think you have a very sad and narrow view of what being a human is. Human beings are smart, we understand that our actions have implications to other sentient beings and through our empathy we can understand those implications. Technically speaking, it would not matter if I ran out and killed someone right now, the universe is indifferent and only one thing would change, when change always happens. But I can understand that as myself and that other human have been gifted with an awareness of our surroundings and a perception to experience them with, it would be wrong of me to do that to another person, taking away their awareness and endangering my own. Humans have evolved and survived through working together, not killing each other. This draws us to work together and we form societies and communities and we progress. To think that I need an executioner waiting for me once I die in order to force me into acting kindly is quite a sad assumption. It is my own simple observation that doing good things will spread good in mine and other peoples' direction; and bad will do the reverse.
This is the trouble, KBA, I found it extremely hard to word the first posting in this Thread because I knew that it would come over as you have viewed
.I do not have a very sad and narrow view of what a human being is at all. In actual fact, I am honestly amazed and find people so impressive that it really does astound me. People will give up their lives for another, are basically honest and will help all they can, in fact, that is just the tip of the iceberg. I just wondered where they got their views and behaviours towards others from, what makes their morals sort of thing.
Of course, not everyone is like this, if they were there would be no need for prisons, social workers, probation officers etc.
I fully accept that whether someone believes in God or not, they have their own values and the vast majority of those people are good and helpful to others. I guess I was just trying to see what made them tick
Thats easy some people just know what is the right thing to do and what is the wrong thing to do without it having to be spelled out to them. Others need a book written by a bunch of neandrithalls a couple thousand years ago to spell out exactly what they are and are not supposed to do. I think the idea that only religious people have the monopoly on good behavior is ridiculous and probably made up by a religious person in the first place so there you go. I hardly look to religious types for moraa direction anyway. More people have died for religion than all the immoral acts of the non believers put together times ten. From the morally pure minds of the righteous we got the witch trials, the crusades, the masacre of the templars and their families, the hundred years war, the time of the two popes etc.
QUOTE (Odin11 @ Oct 29 2007, 04:16 AM)
Strange is our situation here on Earth. Each of us comes for a short visit, not knowing why, yet sometimes seeming to divine a purpose. From the standpoint of daily life, however, there is one thing we do know: that man is here for the sake of other men- above all for those upon whose smiles and well-being our own happiness depends.
If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
-Albert Einstein
Lotus, Do you really mean to tell me the only reason you try to be good is to gain god's approval and reward, or to avoid his disapproval and punishment? That's not morality, that's just sucking up.
If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
-Albert Einstein
Lotus, Do you really mean to tell me the only reason you try to be good is to gain god's approval and reward, or to avoid his disapproval and punishment? That's not morality, that's just sucking up.
Er no, not at all. The thing was, as I do believe in God I couldn't figure this whole thing out from the perspective of someone that did not believe in God
QUOTE (Betsy @ Oct 29 2007, 05:35 AM)
I try to do no harm as I am an animal with a central nervous system and can experience pain and therefore understand it is not a desirable state to be in.
As a pack animal the emotional and physical state of others in the pack/tribe affects me also. If I see someone on T.V crying in a sad situation sometimes their tears will make me cry also. Hence I do not want to cause pain.
I have also experienced throughout my life that if I cause other pain, whether than be financial/physical/emotional sometimes I will face retribution which again causes me pain.
I find it weird that people need a big angry man in the sky meting out retribution to keep them in line. Sometimes that makes me afraid of religious people. Like if they suddenly didn't believe they would run amok. Or they read something in their holy book that inspires them to kill/hurt others they find 'undesirable' like homosexuals or infidels.
Perhaps us atheists are just more moral people! JOKES JOKES!!!
As a pack animal the emotional and physical state of others in the pack/tribe affects me also. If I see someone on T.V crying in a sad situation sometimes their tears will make me cry also. Hence I do not want to cause pain.
I have also experienced throughout my life that if I cause other pain, whether than be financial/physical/emotional sometimes I will face retribution which again causes me pain.
I find it weird that people need a big angry man in the sky meting out retribution to keep them in line. Sometimes that makes me afraid of religious people. Like if they suddenly didn't believe they would run amok. Or they read something in their holy book that inspires them to kill/hurt others they find 'undesirable' like homosexuals or infidels.
Perhaps us atheists are just more moral people! JOKES JOKES!!!
Good posting Betsy, the bit about pain, answered many of my silent questions. Thanks
QUOTE (bball @ Oct 29 2007, 05:35 AM)
I am struggling to explain myself here...Regardless of my beliefs, I don't associate my everyday not going out and killing people or stealing, with anything other than that I wouldn't want the same to happen to me. All I know is that I don't not do bad things out of fear.
I know it is somewhat a cliche, but...treat others the way you want to be treated.
I know it is somewhat a cliche, but...treat others the way you want to be treated.
It's not a cliche at all, it's a worthwhile thing to live by in my book
QUOTE
From the morally pure minds of the righteous we got the witch trials, the crusades, the masacre of the templars and their families, the hundred years war, the time of the two popes etc.
And the current terrorism that religious fanaticism brings.
QUOTE (Lotus Flower @ Oct 29 2007, 02:45 AM)
This has been going over in my mind for a while.
If some people believe that this life is all there is and afterwards there is nothing, their bodies just decomposing and then nothing at all and these same people do not believe in God at all, why is it that they do not run riot, do what they wish, commit crime, murder and anything else that takes their fancy. After all, they have nothing to answer to, do they?
If some people believe that this life is all there is and afterwards there is nothing, their bodies just decomposing and then nothing at all and these same people do not believe in God at all, why is it that they do not run riot, do what they wish, commit crime, murder and anything else that takes their fancy. After all, they have nothing to answer to, do they?
Could it be because moral integrity is a human attribute and not a religious one?
I don't believe in a god, I don't think I'm going to be rewarded for my good deeds or punished for my bad ones once I'm dead; but that doesn't mean I have reason to be a bad person. Realistically, I know that actions have consequences. Even if I won't be sent to hell for killing someone, I know that their family will grieve, it's not my right to put them through that, and I'd feel bad for it. It's just basic morality.
I think it's a stupid argument when theists say that atheists have no morality because they don't believe in a god. I'm a good person because I know what's right, not because I'm scared of being caught committing a crime.
I think it's a stupid argument when theists say that atheists have no morality because they don't believe in a god. I'm a good person because I know what's right, not because I'm scared of being caught committing a crime.
QUOTE
Could it be because moral integrity is a human attribute and not a religious one?
Indeed.
An athiest who is a good person because they believe in respecting their fellow human beings and contributing to a sustainable and just society has a strong morality, in my opinion, than someone who is "good" simply because they are afraid of punishment or missing out on reward.
Maybe that's why so many religious people do horrible things but justify it by twisting their religion. Maybe they aren't really "moral" people at all, just trying to avoid punishment and collect a reward, which is, afterall, very selfish indeed...
QUOTE (Raptor X7 @ Oct 29 2007, 04:33 PM)
I don't believe in a god, I don't think I'm going to be rewarded for my good deeds or punished for my bad ones once I'm dead; but that doesn't mean I have reason to be a bad person. Realistically, I know that actions have consequences. Even if I won't be sent to hell for killing someone, I know that their family will grieve, it's not my right to put them through that, and I'd feel bad for it. It's just basic morality.
I think it's a stupid argument when theists say that atheists have no morality because they don't believe in a god. I'm a good person because I know what's right, not because I'm scared of being caught committing a crime.
I think it's a stupid argument when theists say that atheists have no morality because they don't believe in a god. I'm a good person because I know what's right, not because I'm scared of being caught committing a crime.
Hi Raptor, this is what I was nervous about when making this Thread, that people would think that I thought all atheists were a bunch of no-good criminals.
But just to put the record straight, I thought the opposite and wondered why they weren't like that, hence this topic
As far as I know, I have this life, and this life alone. Therefore, I wish to make it as enjoyable and long as possible.
Stealing from and killing others is not condusive to this desired outcome.
Stealing from and killing others is not condusive to this desired outcome.
QUOTE (Lotus Flower @ Oct 29 2007, 10:11 AM)
This is the trouble, KBA, I found it extremely hard to word the first posting in this Thread because I knew that it would come over as you have viewed .
I do not have a very sad and narrow view of what a human being is at all. In actual fact, I am honestly amazed and find people so impressive that it really does astound me. People will give up their lives for another, are basically honest and will help all they can, in fact, that is just the tip of the iceberg. I just wondered where they got their views and behaviours towards others from, what makes their morals sort of thing.
Of course, not everyone is like this, if they were there would be no need for prisons, social workers, probation officers etc.
I fully accept that whether someone believes in God or not, they have their own values and the vast majority of those people are good and helpful to others. I guess I was just trying to see what made them tick
.I do not have a very sad and narrow view of what a human being is at all. In actual fact, I am honestly amazed and find people so impressive that it really does astound me. People will give up their lives for another, are basically honest and will help all they can, in fact, that is just the tip of the iceberg. I just wondered where they got their views and behaviours towards others from, what makes their morals sort of thing.
Of course, not everyone is like this, if they were there would be no need for prisons, social workers, probation officers etc.
I fully accept that whether someone believes in God or not, they have their own values and the vast majority of those people are good and helpful to others. I guess I was just trying to see what made them tick
Well, we grow around other human beings, we experience hurt and we hate to see other people experience it as well. It is our Mammalian brain that gives us this empathy for other beings... And so when we see other people in pain or realize that we have cause that pain, we feel sadness or remorse.
As for why some people don't seem to be like that, it's a bit complex. First of all, there's normal people. Any normal person can be driven to become a murderer. That is because everyone has their reptilian brain which is not so rational. Then there are people who truly feel no remorse when they harm other conscious beings... And that has to do with a very large amount of factors; brain composition, social conditioning, etc.. But from what I understand, people who regularly harm other people and feel no remorse have not gotten rid of their ability to feel remorse, they have simply stopped viewing human beings as human beings. To them, it's like melting toy soldiers when they hurt people.
At any rate, in the end, I don't believe there's any punishment for evil or reward for good. That's because I understand that there really is no such thing as evil and good. Evil and good is only a subjective way for people to describe change. We decide what evil and good are based on our emotions and other peoples' emotions.. and we have these emotions for the sheer purpose of survival. Every emotion can be explained when looking from a survival standpoint. If there were another species observing our planet, they might think every little thing the human race does is evil because they have a different set of emotions and those are caused by different things. But if I am going to be a human with human emotions, in my lifetime I will do good from the perspective of a human
, not because I want some reward for it, but because I genuinely want to create a better atmosphere for myself and other humans to live in.
QUOTE (Lotus Flower @ Oct 28 2007, 09:45 PM)
This has been going over in my mind for a while.
If some people believe that this life is all there is and afterwards there is nothing, their bodies just decomposing and then nothing at all and these same people do not believe in God at all, why is it that they do not run riot, do what they wish, commit crime, murder and anything else that takes their fancy. After all, they have nothing to answer to, do they?
In some people's minds there is no soul, therefore would I be correct in supposing they do not believe they have a conscience either? If they think they have no soul but they do have a conscience, what do they think this "conscience" is?
Apart from being incarcerated in a prison for committing such crimes, what stops them if they have no God to answer to? Or perhaps is it some subconscious belief, buried deep, that there is indeed something else and this prevents them from doing certain things, they just do not recognize it?
The interesting thing is though, that the vast majority of these people stay on the straight and narrow - why?
It seems a stupid question, I know. I was just very curious.
If some people believe that this life is all there is and afterwards there is nothing, their bodies just decomposing and then nothing at all and these same people do not believe in God at all, why is it that they do not run riot, do what they wish, commit crime, murder and anything else that takes their fancy. After all, they have nothing to answer to, do they?
In some people's minds there is no soul, therefore would I be correct in supposing they do not believe they have a conscience either? If they think they have no soul but they do have a conscience, what do they think this "conscience" is?
Apart from being incarcerated in a prison for committing such crimes, what stops them if they have no God to answer to? Or perhaps is it some subconscious belief, buried deep, that there is indeed something else and this prevents them from doing certain things, they just do not recognize it?
The interesting thing is though, that the vast majority of these people stay on the straight and narrow - why?
It seems a stupid question, I know. I was just very curious.
one threat being prison. why would somebody who believes in only this 70/80 years of life is all there is and want to spend all of that time in chains and behind bars. secondly they might not addmit it but maybe they have a thought way way way in the back of there minds (or possibly in the front of their minds that bugs them constantly) that there might just be a god after all.
QUOTE (Godofcats @ Oct 29 2007, 07:16 PM)
one threat being prison. why would somebody who believes in only this 70/80 years of life is all there is and want to spend all of that time in chains and behind bars. secondly they might not addmit it but maybe they have a thought way way way in the back of there minds (or possibly in the front of their minds that bugs them constantly) that there might just be a god after all.
So they're the only two things which prevent you from hurting someone?
I think Betsy nailed it as far as the individual goes. Great post!
To all those who wonder how people cannot have this sense of right and wrong without a religious framework, a question. Do you all think religion is as old as mankind (obviously conservative Creationists do)? If not, then obviously morality precedes religion. Religion has co-opted the common morality of the human social animal and proselytised it as it's own.
To all those who wonder how people cannot have this sense of right and wrong without a religious framework, a question. Do you all think religion is as old as mankind (obviously conservative Creationists do)? If not, then obviously morality precedes religion. Religion has co-opted the common morality of the human social animal and proselytised it as it's own.
QUOTE (Lotus Flower @ Oct 28 2007, 09:45 PM)
The interesting thing is though, that the vast majority of these people stay on the straight and narrow - why?
first survival then "QoL"
According to this site (Clicky Here) only 3% of the inmate population are atheists, agnostics, non-believers in God. That means 97% of crimmals believe in God. Kind of blows the morality of the God fearing out of the water.
Its funny aint it... the people who do the most killings are the ones who do it in the name of god all these stupid religious extremists and the ones who do less are the ones who see reality.
THERE IS NO GOD
THERE IS NO GOD
I don't have morals, myself. I have something called "Empathy."
QUOTE (Boon! @ Oct 29 2007, 10:32 PM)
I don't have morals, myself. I have something called "Empathy."
I love that Boon !!
I found another interesting site.
QUOTE
Atheists Supply Less Than 1% Of Prison Populations
--------------------------------------------------
It's suprising how many people say to me, "You're an Atheist? You must
have no conscience about commiting crime then." Nothing could be further
from the truth. In fact, if we examine the population of our prisons, we
see a very different picture:
In "The New Criminology", Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two
generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without
religious training is about 1/10 of 1%. W. T. Root, professor of
psychology at the Univ. of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said
"Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding
that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers are absent from
penitentiariers or nearly so.
During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics,
26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious.
Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics,
435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and 1 Unitarian.
Dr. Christian, Superintendant of the NY State Reformatories, checked
22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates. In "Who's Who"
91% were college graduates, and he commented that "intelligence and
knowledge produce right living" and that "crime is the offspring of
superstition and ignorance."
Surveyed Massachusetts reformatories found every inmate religious, carefully
herded by chaplins.
In Joliet, there were 2,888 Catholics, 1,020 Baptists, 617 Methodists and
0 non-religious.
Michigan had 82,000 Baptists and 83,000 Jews in their state population.
But in the prisons, there were 22 times as many Baptists as Jews, and 18 times
as many Methodists as Jews. In Sing-Sing, there were 1,553 total inmates with
855 of them Catholics (over half), 518 Protestants, 177 Jews and 8 non-
religious. There's a very interesting qualified statistic.
Steiner first surveyed 27 states, and found 19,400 Christians, 5,000 with
no preference, and only 3 Agnostics (one each in Connecticut, New Hampshire,
and Illinois). A later, more complete survey found 60,605 Christians, 5,000
Jews, 131 Pagans, 4,000 no preference, and only 3 Agnostics.
In one 29-state survey, Steiner found 15 unbelievers, Spirtualists,
Theosophists, Deists, Pantheists and 1 Agnostic among nearly 83,000 inmates.
Calling all 15 "anti-christians" made it one half person to each state.
Elmira reformatory overshadowed all, with nearly 31,000 inmates, including
15,694 Catholics (half), and 10,968 Protestants, 4,000 Jews, 325 refusing
to answer, and 0 unbelievers.
In the East, over 64% of inmates are Catholics. In the national prison
population they average 50%. A national census found Catholics 15%. They
count from the diaper up. Hardly 12% are old enough to commit a crime.
Half of these are women. That leaves an adult Catholic population of 6%
supplying 50% of the prison population.
Liverpool, England produces three percent as many young criminals as
Birmingham, a larger city, 28% coming from Catholic schools.
What does this tell you about parochial school systems or claims that religion
is the guardian of morals?
* Fifty-two percent of people belong to no church, yet live clean lives and *
* supply less than 1% of the total criminal population. So much for *
* religious indoctrination.
http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm
--------------------------------------------------
It's suprising how many people say to me, "You're an Atheist? You must
have no conscience about commiting crime then." Nothing could be further
from the truth. In fact, if we examine the population of our prisons, we
see a very different picture:
In "The New Criminology", Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two
generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without
religious training is about 1/10 of 1%. W. T. Root, professor of
psychology at the Univ. of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said
"Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding
that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers are absent from
penitentiariers or nearly so.
During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics,
26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious.
Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics,
435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and 1 Unitarian.
Dr. Christian, Superintendant of the NY State Reformatories, checked
22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates. In "Who's Who"
91% were college graduates, and he commented that "intelligence and
knowledge produce right living" and that "crime is the offspring of
superstition and ignorance."
Surveyed Massachusetts reformatories found every inmate religious, carefully
herded by chaplins.
In Joliet, there were 2,888 Catholics, 1,020 Baptists, 617 Methodists and
0 non-religious.
Michigan had 82,000 Baptists and 83,000 Jews in their state population.
But in the prisons, there were 22 times as many Baptists as Jews, and 18 times
as many Methodists as Jews. In Sing-Sing, there were 1,553 total inmates with
855 of them Catholics (over half), 518 Protestants, 177 Jews and 8 non-
religious. There's a very interesting qualified statistic.
Steiner first surveyed 27 states, and found 19,400 Christians, 5,000 with
no preference, and only 3 Agnostics (one each in Connecticut, New Hampshire,
and Illinois). A later, more complete survey found 60,605 Christians, 5,000
Jews, 131 Pagans, 4,000 no preference, and only 3 Agnostics.
In one 29-state survey, Steiner found 15 unbelievers, Spirtualists,
Theosophists, Deists, Pantheists and 1 Agnostic among nearly 83,000 inmates.
Calling all 15 "anti-christians" made it one half person to each state.
Elmira reformatory overshadowed all, with nearly 31,000 inmates, including
15,694 Catholics (half), and 10,968 Protestants, 4,000 Jews, 325 refusing
to answer, and 0 unbelievers.
In the East, over 64% of inmates are Catholics. In the national prison
population they average 50%. A national census found Catholics 15%. They
count from the diaper up. Hardly 12% are old enough to commit a crime.
Half of these are women. That leaves an adult Catholic population of 6%
supplying 50% of the prison population.
Liverpool, England produces three percent as many young criminals as
Birmingham, a larger city, 28% coming from Catholic schools.
What does this tell you about parochial school systems or claims that religion
is the guardian of morals?
* Fifty-two percent of people belong to no church, yet live clean lives and *
* supply less than 1% of the total criminal population. So much for *
* religious indoctrination.
http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm
QUOTE (Darkwind @ Oct 29 2007, 02:53 PM)
I found another interesting site.
wow! That was really interesting, Darkwind. It really doesn't surprise me that much, though. I have known a lot of people who went to church on Sundays and led a life of sin every other day of the week.
You know I have known very many christians ( moved around alot) that have a very negative background and some I still love dearly regardless.
Faith has really helped them get their act together so that are not a menace/pain to their enviroment and loved ones anymore. And OF COURSE that's good thing.
"BUT" I have to wonder and this disturbs me- what is their TRUE CORE or character ?
You could say they were just misled but as soon as they get off the christianity kick they are often back to being their old selves.
I will trust an Atheist/Agnostic anyday over most christians because I KNOW "most of them" are being who they are naturally without any influence of fear, promise of reward etc. And I really, really appreciate it !! And HEY I know there are some NASTY Atheist out there-quite aware of that. But they aren't faking themselves or others out.
GOOD ATHEISTS give me FAITH in humanity again.
I know there are " truly innocent,good christian people" and YOU KNOW who you are so you won't feel offended by this post. I think some of you know what I mean all too well.
Hey but FAITH gives STRENGTH to be good so keep it up.
We are probably playing with fire trying to get some to change their mind. Scarrrry stuff...watch out
Oh by the way, addicts are not bad people -they are depressed people -so they don't count.
Faith has really helped them get their act together so that are not a menace/pain to their enviroment and loved ones anymore. And OF COURSE that's good thing.
"BUT" I have to wonder and this disturbs me- what is their TRUE CORE or character ?
You could say they were just misled but as soon as they get off the christianity kick they are often back to being their old selves.
I will trust an Atheist/Agnostic anyday over most christians because I KNOW "most of them" are being who they are naturally without any influence of fear, promise of reward etc. And I really, really appreciate it !! And HEY I know there are some NASTY Atheist out there-quite aware of that. But they aren't faking themselves or others out.
GOOD ATHEISTS give me FAITH in humanity again.
I know there are " truly innocent,good christian people" and YOU KNOW who you are so you won't feel offended by this post. I think some of you know what I mean all too well.
Hey but FAITH gives STRENGTH to be good so keep it up.
We are probably playing with fire trying to get some to change their mind. Scarrrry stuff...watch out
Oh by the way, addicts are not bad people -they are depressed people -so they don't count.
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