hey all you sciencey people explain how super dumb neanderthals were able to speak and comunicate with each other make weapons tools scultpures and even have there own religion? and if your wondering they had a religion that reffered to a person or god called the mother who was creator of everything

because i reckon you guys will have no reasonable explanation just try

clearly the super dumb neanderthals were able to speak and comunicate with each other make weapons tools scultpures because science itself has discovered that

have you got a link to the bit about the mother ?

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larynx read the section on Descended larynx.

2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broca's_area

That explains how speech evolved. From there it's just a short step to language. With language comes the ability to pass on human knowledge to future generations.

I'm not an physical anthropologist, I'm just an amateur.

Hope this helps ya.

heres my link the jean m auel series earth childrens read them all 5 books and if u think that shes just a story book writer your wrong she is a renound archaeoligist she as heaps of decades of archaeolgy in her knowledge bank


thanks for the language thing and im an amueter archaeologist well really a begginer but iv read up my books and everything

Answer: They weren't super dumb.

What sciency people say they are?

And just what evidence are you going to produce that the Neanderthals WERE "Super-Dumb". On average they had larger brains than Homo Sapien Sapiens, their Larynx was developed enough to produce real speech.... so they could think and talk, also their are a number of sites that suggested Ritualistic Burial (NOT sacrificial). Neanderthals skeletons have been discovered that showed evidence of extreme infirmity suggesting that they were cared for by other members.

I think you are are just Flaming. Show us YOUR evidence to the contrary

woh calm down i dont mean super dumb i see them as quite smart

and i no there larynx was quite developed they had deffierent languages and were able not only communicate through speech but hand signals as well

and i no they had damn big brains most were huge

Then why call them "Super Dumb"?

What is your evidence that they used Hand signals. How many different languages. Be prepared to support your statements here.This is laughable

I agree that Jean Auels books are marvellous (i can see one from my desk right now!) and have inspired many people to study the subject in depth......however they are science mixed with fiction. For example there is no way of knowing if they had hand signals.

Most sciency people don't think they are dumb. It is the popular culture that portrays them so.

look old man there have been an number of skeletons that have had strange hand signals and how the efen hell am i supposed to know how many fricken languages they have a mean for god sakes do you know many languages there are right now

i mean come on

thnx betsy i also do know they are fictional as well but i have already check all that up

What do you mean skeletons with strange hand signals?

well they died yll communicating through the hand signals like pompeii ash that has hardened ove rtheir bodies

Are you talking to me?

I see you have just visited my profile and seen that I am 50 years old, is this an issue for you? Your rudeness only matches your stupidity

hey its not my problem ur 50 and your old and cranky


of couse im talking to u

and im smart thnak u

I renew my contention that we need a Teen UM, just so threads like this can hit an appropriate audience.

--Jaylemurph

I wholeheartedly agree J.!!

exactly that means no more mr old ( yes im refering to u keithisco)

You have completely misunderstood Jaylemurphs comments. For all we know you could be 120 years old, but you choose not to disclose your age.

I repeat my earlier question... show some, no show ANY evidence for your original post, and try running your reply through "Spellchecker" so we at least have a chance of trying to understand what you are saying.

I also repeat my earlier comment that you are here simply to Flame

exactly unlike yours

That's quite enough. Black-Fox, ease up on the derogatory comments if you please, if you can't provide ample substance for your views other than snide and/or nasty remarks there's little reason to continue. Other members are reminded that little is gained by provoking those you disagree with by retorting in kind. Focus on arguing the merits of your opponents views instead of making personal observations, a measure of civility is required to participate. Thank you for your understanding.

MM

So... I ask again for any evidence that supports your original post

this is known as flaming mr. black oir blue fox...and u better read the Rules of UM before u start such flaming stuffs!
There are folks of all ages in UM and it is quite understood from the depth of ur 'so called ' research that u r quite immature and need to learn manners!

please dont go around calling names!

research your topic before u start and dont be condescending! kapeesh?

oh yeah...the neandrethals were going all bonkers after they were dead..showing sign language saying 'Me Dead' with their fingers!!

Oh my! another corny post !!

Where have you been for the last decade and a half? Science has reconsidered the neanderthals and doesn't consider them "Super Dumb" anymore.

Of course, that title has to go somewhere... perhaps to people that use phrases like "Super Dumb"?

Wow...

Where to begin? I will start with Jean M. Auel. I have read the series, many many times. My daughter's name is Ayla. I met Ms. Auel in Portland, OR when I lived there. Not that this makes me an expert in Neanderthal, but Jean M. Auel is not an archaeologist. She was a few other things before she was an author, but has no formal training in anthropology or archeology. She does do a lot of research, travel, and studying for her books, but she will admit that things that are in the book are fictional, and there is even a mention in the Wiki article about her that her portrayal of the Neanderthals' hand signaling as a first language may have been incorrect, because of the 1983 finding of the Hyoid bone in Neanderthal, which facilitated more vocal abilities than previously thought.

You can not use a FICTIONAL novel for historical education. The FICTIONAL account of the Neanderthals' religion as a 'mother' of the earth, a Donii, was all created in Ms. Auel's mind. These ideas are based on a carving found in Austria, dating back to around 22,000 BC, known as Venus of Willendorf. This is her:



The statue has no face, which makes some 'sciency' people believe she may have been representative of a universal mother. More statues were found, but most of the female statues that seem to fit with the universal mother are from 3000 BC and earlier, long after the Neanderthals were gone.

As far as tools and weapons, well yeah. I don't know of anyone who disputes that. 'Sciency' people have been saying Neanderthals could make tools since they found Neanderthals. That's part of the reason they weren't considered just another ape. They had the ability to make tools and adapt to what was around them faster.

I understand how awesome the Clan of the Cave Bear series is. Believe me, I read the first book when I was 13 years old, I waited for the Shelters of Stone for 10 years, when it finally came out, I CRIED like a baby at Books a Million. They are wonderful stories, but they are not history. When I was younger, I wanted to believe them too, but instead of relying on fiction, I actually studied the facts about Neanderthals. You should too.

Until then, you have really no leg to stand on to come into a forum of mostly educated adults and start attacking people that know more than you do. It only serves to make you sound like an uneducated prepubescent trouble maker.

I suggest opening an actual 'sciency' book before you try that again.

Will you stop filling up the internet with your useless crap?

(and "and im smart thnak u" is a classic)

What part of 'keep the discussion focused on the topic at hand' are you people having a problem understanding?

The 'issue' has been addressed, so there's no point in mentioning it any further. Keep the discussion focused on the topic at hand and avoid the temptation to voice your disapproval, its rude and unnecessary. I really don't enjoy having to repeat myself, any other irrelevant comments will have unpleasant consequences.

MM

Even more mysterious is how come super dumb modern humans are able to speak and communicate with each other, make weapons, tools, sculptures and even have their own religion..... How do you explain that?

Sundogdayze....is the statue really 24000 years old?

1.618- (love the name by the way)

As far as I can tell. Here's the Wikipedia quote:



This is from an essay about Venus of Willendorf:



Essay about Venus of Willendorf.

Of course, I wasn't there to test it myself, nor would I know how to anyway, so this is what I have to rely on.

*Edited to add link.

Daze --

Is there any evidence that the Willendorf Venus was carved by Neanderthals specifically?

--Jaylemurph

24,000-22,000 bce is after the last Neanderthal became extinct





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal#T...he_Neanderthals

and the Venus of Willendorf is an archetype that is found repeated in ancient artifacts right up until recently.
http://donsmaps.com/venus.html
But there are Venus figures that were crafted before we evolved as a species so who knows
http://donsmaps.com/tantanvenus.html
and really who cares, the Neanderthals were so like us its scary already, thats why we annihilated them in the first place. all their base belong to us

Jaylemurph and Kerkinana-

I made a mistake...it took me a few moments to realize it, but no one, not even Jean M. Auel has tried to say that Neanderthals worshiped a universal mother figure. It was the Cro-Magnons in the series that worshiped a Donii (the word used for universal mother, that was made up and used by Jean M. Auel.)

The Neanderthals in these stories (known as Flatheads or Clan) worshiped animals and animal totems. So, sorry Mr. Blackfox, even if one were to use a fictional novel as evidence of neanderthal religion, you still had it wrong.

But back to the question, I know the statue was created around the same time as the latest evidence of living Neanderthals. No where have I seen that it was specifically credited to Neanderthals. But the books take place 35,000 BC, and Ms. Auel did all her research between 1977 and 1980 for the first book. Around that same time frame is when scientists believed the statue dated back to that same age. So the author incorporated it, because her books take place when Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon walked the earth together, and with the resources she had at the time, that was around 35K BC. This has been proven incorrect since then. I heard this in an online interview with her some years back, which is when I first learned of the statue. She knows there are historical inaccuracies in her novels that seemed accurate at the time of their writing.

But anyway, my original point was that these are fictional novels, not to be taken as fact. No one thinks that Neanderthals were Super Dumb, and I don't really see the point of debating when most of us are in agreement.

I enjoyed her books as well.

But they were kind of silly. I mean, one single woman invented everything from starting fire with flint, through the spearthrower and even found the time to invent the blowjab as well!

What a woman!

Harte

Harte-

Right, because they were fiction. Not to be used as evidence.

P.S. she also apparently invented the needle.

Oh my lord...I may have to read THAT book.

whats a Blowjab ?

something medical or a typo ?

I'm thinking it's not /medical/...

--Jaylemurph

I don't remember that part of the book specifically, lol. But there were a lot of parts of the books that were of a...sexual...nature.

So Jaylemurph is probably right. Not medical.

"Speech may have evolved from animal songs or calls; novel brain wiring may have been involved."

McClellan, James E. and Harold Dorn. Science and Technology in World History: An Introduction. The John Hopkins University Press. Baltimore, Maryland. 1999. page 9.

Therapeutic, perhaps...

Blowjab he he he!

Yes they were silly - but if you read them when you are mr black foxs age or younger like I did they can really pique your interest. In one of my archaeology classes heaps of us stated that they were the reason that we got interested in archaeology (perhaps that doesn't say much for the quality of archaeology students!) One of my teachers had been to her house and said she was so outrageously rich and that she had some massive wine cellar and they all proceeded to get fabulously pissed.

How bad was the movie with Daryl Hannah! Those rape scences were freak'n gross!

oi ****head stop bagging my religion and yes i fricken well did muck up when i said super dumb so will u drop that fricken subject and no my religion is that its the worshiping animals

and if u dont no wat blowjab is dont worry

You're a complete Totemist then

He's a complete something.

You're your own worse enemy, black-fox. The last comment was crude and uncalled for, and you've already been warned once for using obscenities, clean up the language or you'll quickly find yourself unable to participate at all. That's your second warning. We're done here.

MM