Okay, now, I believe that all rumors/myths began with some bit of truth to it.

Now, Dragons...traces can be found hundreds if not thousands of years ago in all cultures, varying from area and such. Ask yourself, are these creatures hard to be found as plausible? Sure, but how would every culture have traces going back in the forms of story, or pictures, or artifacts? Some countries, such as china, which were egocentric, meaning they relied on themselves and believed they were the center of all people/culture. That means they didn't travel and poly with other countries as they thought there was no need. So if this "creature" started in one place, and there were cultures that were egocentric; how would the belief spread?

This goes for many other cryptids spreading from culture to culture; Birdzilla, also known in many other cultures and different parts of the world. Bigfoot, also known in many other cultures and different parts of the world.

Now, I'm not saying that they exist 100%. But, I am insisting that at one time, they all existed, or most. Simply because all rumors are started from a bit of truth. They may, not exist now, but at one time they roamed some remote part of the world.

Possible sightings and/or encounters could be exaggerated now, because of a previous post I seen, where it depends on the era, and person whose looking. They used the example of wanting to see Nessie, so their mind portrays stumps and branches as the opposed creature. But, at one time I believe these cryptids existed.

What do you think?

My best guess for the dragon aspect is that the cultures who painted dragons most likely found fossils of dinosaurs, etc and then made pictures of what they thought those creatures looked like. Bigfoot is a recent enough phenomenon that people are now connected with the rest of the world, so we don't have many isolated cultures now which means that a bigfoot story could easily be communicated across the world.

Yea, its quite possible that the ancient cultures found fossils and presumed it to be what they drew. Very possible.

But I mean, I'm not talking about only ancient cultures, the Bigfoot phenomenon reaches back pretty far in time, not so much ancient, but far enough where isolation was still very possible and it was still wide spread and found in different cultures and parts of the world. Birdzilla too.

I mean, I'm not gonna speculate on exactly what they seen, but it had to be something similar.

It is very possible that someone confused a bear on its hind legs for bigfoot. Same thing goes for other cryptids. It is human tendency to see what you want to see and not what actually is there. I admit that I do that sometimes too just because the thought of something out of the ordinary is very exciting. However, when I think over what I saw, I can usually come up with a good explanation.

And I don't know what birdzilla is.

the fossil theory doesn't explain the stories of encounters with dragons. And another example of myths that are found in many cultures are werewolves, how do you explain them?

I think it far more likely that these creatures were common place till recently. With the advent of wide spread machinery it is very possible that these creatures avoid mankind more than they used to.
It is no secret that as soon as boats using propellers and generating more noise that the sightings of sea serpents and sea dragons faded to all but memory.

As far as actual fire breathing dragons, there have been sightings of creatures that supposedly could breath fire. I don't find it all that far fetched that such a creature could exist or could have existed. My take on ancient cultures painting and carving dragons is that they probably lived with dragons of a sort. There are multiple creatures depicted in paintings that are dinosaur like, and not dragon suggesting that the actual dragon may have been different than dinosaur. They are referred to differently in historical accounts as well.

very true possibilities, I think that some of these creatures may have camouflage or an ability to shape shift or maybe they are nocturnal. others probably do live in isolated regions

As technology progresses, we learn more about animals and other things on this planet. So, if someone saw a "dragon" back then, it could have been a lizard, perhaps a komodo dragon even. And I never take encounters with creatures very serious unless there is solid evidence to back up what the person is saying, so experiences with dragons could have been exaggerated, made-up, or perhaps an encounter with an unknown animal.

you said unknown animal, then it could mean dragon. Also I doubt that native Americans would've seen a komodo dragon. Also nature is not depended on science, it doesn't matter if science says some thing doesn't exist it still may exist just is not known

When I said unknown animal, I meant unknown at that time. And I didn't know we were talking about the Americas only so then ignore my komodo dragin comment. Until someone finds fossils of a true dragon, I am going to stay firm in my belief that dragons never existed and were made up mythical creatures.

I applaud you for standing by your beliefs

Your all right, someone could have mistaken it for a different animal, possibly unknown at that time. But for a Dragon? Their very concrete in what they look like in the different cultures. Different variations, yes. But concrete nonetheless.

Now...as for finding dragon fossils and such, perhaps they are too intelligent for that. For instance, don't elephants sense they are dying and in turn go to a certain place to die. Sort of like an elephant boneyard? Perhaps dragon's can do the same, as well as bigfoot and other crytpids? I mean, it is possible right? Say 10 years from now, someone comes across a cave filled with hundreds of bigfoot skeletons. Or someone is exploring some mountainous area and comes across dragon fossils and such. Its possible.

yes that is very possible. Also new fossils are being found every year

You are implying that dragons go and only die in caves. That's not going to happen. You can't really control where you die, so I'm sure that if dragons were real, someone would have found fossils somewhere. Besides, a lot of caves have been explored and no evidence of any dragon like creature was ever found.

Hypothetical

There are records, stories, legends, of a world wide flood all over the world, whether you believe it to be a biblical flood or not, the evidence is there. We find fossils of sea creatures at the tops of the highest mountains. It is safe to assume that a large scale flood did in fact happen.

In legend nearly all dragons can fly, Some like the Chinese dragons could swim. Fossils were formed by creatures who were buried in mud slides, rock slides or any sort of slide that covers the creature quickly. This is why there are fewer birds in the fossil record than land or sea creatures. Birds that were buried and fossilized would have been ones that succumbed to the rain or the ones that were buried very quickly without warning. There are many many fossils that show dinosaurs with food still in their mouths which means that they were buried quickly and with little warning.

Supposing dragons were large creatures that could fly, they would have stayed alive the longest out of all the birds, and when they finally did die they would have been on top of everything. The bodies would have decomposed, and the bones would have turned to dust. There would be very few fossils in any record.

Or if dragons could swim, they would have stayed alive that way. The fact is that most of our fossils come from creatures which were buried very quickly. Fossilization does not even take that long if the right conditions are present. Its interesting to note that a flood is perfect for fossils.

They can't avoid Google Earth.

Seriously, that thing is great...I zoomed in on my house and saw my cat. How the hell is a dragon gonna hide?

lol google earth only works if someone actually looks exactly where a dragon happens to be. 99% of all google earth searches are in populated places. Jungles do wonders in hiding things, and you cant see under the water. Google earth comes with its own problems.

heh i just checked to see if i could see a high rez shot of the ground in the Congo. The resolution stops about half way there. It seems that there are a lot of places that have not been actually solidly mapped out just yet. When they are maybe we will be able to see something. Till then we will have to settle for the big cities.

After an hour of solid amusement, i have come to the conclusion that while the United states is mostly in High Rez, getting high rez in places like Loch Ness is next to impossible. In fact most unfriendly places are in such low rez that you could not see the ground.

I found it very odd that Area 51 is in high rez. *shrug*

OH NO! Another thread speaking completely hypothetically in order to justify the existance of said creatures, with nothing other than ancient myths to fall back on, doing nothing but wishing and hoping.

the keepers of truth have collected any remains and returned most back to

the sea after the giants were traped under/. dinos were 100 and changed

back to mostly water swimmers smaller ones came back on land when

conditions grew back to better times man came back also and the fight

was on us against them we they were small at this time half the size of

a horse but had a very long tail most of them were traped in their under

ground lairs other were hunted they can live very long as time went on

some would escape when very small then as it grew large they could fly

and would eat cows people whatever they could get it claw on until it died

not fly

this was made from drawing that were over 6000 years old when earth was reborn

I'm not wishing and hoping for the existence, rather explaining that there is a possibility, small, maybe, but possible nonetheless. Why dismiss everything with little reason because science has yet to discover it. I'm simply explaining that some species are known to go to a certain place to get ready to die. Yes some animals instinctively know when their time is cutting short. Dogs are said to do this, as well as elephants. So why not a "Bigfoot Species" or "Dragon"?

And Kanji, that theory of the flood and possible deterioration of fossilized dragon bones is very intriguing. I'm going to look forward into that, seems very plausible and sounds like a great explanation of why they've yet to be discovered, if ever.

And bball your making it seem like "ancient myths" aren't reliable. Science relies on records of the past to distinguish what did happen or didn't. Whose to say the record keepers, if any "specially assigned" person, was nothing more then a story teller. Because of little evidence? Ancient myths present evidence as well. Drawings, stories, sometimes specific locations of events where labeled and presented.

So, if the thread isn't of your interest, or you came in to be an a******, don't. There are tons of other threads for you to talk down upon. Your on a board like this because something drew you to it, I'm guessing an interest in this type of science. So please approach this with an open mind. Thank you.

Whoah! Chill out! What is your fricken problem? First of all, I never called you out personally, or challenged anything you said, so don't play some victim here.

Second, you have NO idea what I am or aren't dismissing. You are right, that I am here because I am interested, but I am NOT obligated to believe any and every idea and hypothesis that comes my way.

Thirdly ancient myths are NOT reliable, sorry. Sure they are interesting, and sure they could be based on fact, but they are in no way reliable. You ever play that game in kindergarden where you say something in one child's ear, and ten people later it is completely different? Well, same thing happens in real life.

Fourthly, what makes you think I am not open-minded? Just because I don't believe everthing that you do? Don't make such assumptions, it shows your immaturity and overly quick judgement. If you can't handle someone presenting the other side of an argument, well...get over it. It happens. This is a debate setting.

Oh yeah, ancient myths don't present evidence. They are an example of anecdotal evidence. That doesn't mean they are useless, (they can still assist in the gathering of evidence) it just means the ancient myths have not been proven to be facts. Evidence is something that is factual, if ancient myths were factual, they wouldn't be called ancient myths. They would be called history.

I'm not playing victim, but you presented yourself in this thread with a lot of sarcasm. Shooting down the idea.

Ideas are what spark the actions that make history.

Your whole post was written on a high horse, I'm not playing victim, but the way I see it, if you present something, you should stick by it, or don't present it. Period. And instead of posting with an open mind, you shot it down completely. There was no maturity to your first post. None. So please don't talk about immaturity.

My post toward you, wasn't directed entirely at you, but an idea, and it addressed other things as well, so, because your so "mature", presuming because you called me immature, why come in and appoint an entire post toward my retort? I don't want this thread filled with ridiculous arguments at one another. So if you wish to argue further with me, please PM me.

Now, onto something else.

I'm not suggesting that these creatures exist. My idea is not concrete no. But its a suggestion and I'm trying to present how I look at it, and that though the possibility is small, that still gives way for possibility.

Drawings, stories, and such aren't enough to go on to come to a definitive answer, I'm merely suggesting that they started from a bit of fact, "Some Partial Truth". Like bball mentioned with the game in kindergarten, yes the story/sentence is always different at the end then the beginning. But it always starts with something concrete, although it may evolve into different things, what I'm saying is that it, at one time, was truth of some sort. Emphasis on the some sort.

The Chinese were excellent record keepers and their histories are filled with perfectly serious accounts of dragons allowing dignitaries to ride on their backs, there were civil servants whose job was to feed visiting dragons, and one ship captain told how he traded wine to a dragon for pulling his boat off a sand bar. Such stories could hardly be based on just seeing some bones. And in cultures all over the world dragon "gods" were accredited with teaching man agriculture, animal husbandry and technologies. And these same dragons often have the same habits, likes, dislikes, etc in cultures seperated by vast oceans As my upcoming book shows, even Yahweh of the Bible was clearly believed to be a dragon in the earliest accounts, right down to the breathing fire, described with wings, ordering the Israelites to worship his "dragon" idol, being offered virgin sacrifices, and demanding the first born children of every family under his care, but willing to accept a payment in gold or silver instead of devouring them.

Even the fllying dragons are associated with living in the water, Yahweh included, whose name seems to be derived the the Cannanite water dragon Yaw, and explains his control over the water such as the Great Flood story. Perhaps these creatures were modified from some yet undiscovered giant reptile of the mesozoic by the intelligence behind the universe, and once their work was accomplished, mostly returned to the sea so not to reveal the existence of another intelligence behind mankind's development. There are countless sightings of reptilian sea monsters after most of the land sightings began to stop around the time of the invention of firearms. And lets face it, no one ever photographeed a living Giant squid until a couple of years ago, and dragons, being much more intelligent, could easily avoid human contact altogether, though many ships lost under mysterious circumstances may be conntected to dragons. After all, the pacific version of the Bermuda Triangle is called the dragon's triangle becaue it WAS believed dragons sunk the ships that ventured into their domain.

No it wasn't, it was made in late medieval times and has nothing to do with the real "Saint" George. A dragon was just added to his story 1000 years after he actually lived to make it more interesting to the ignorant peasants. When the real George lived, dragons were stilll believed to be heavenly creatures, but grdually evolved into the swan winged, "cartoon" Seraphim "angels" of modern Christian mythology. (Seraphim actually means "fiery flying serpents- aka dragons)

Besides, everyone knows you cannot slay a dragon. That is why no dragon bonese have been found despite countless records of their existence in every corner of the world..

I think that the only fact that we have on this subject is that people around the world were once very certain that dragons existed. This, along with many anecdotes, is interesting, but not proof of existence. It is also worth remembering that something that is proof of existence to one person (for example, eyewitness contact) is not proof to another. However, just because it is not proof to another, it does not logically follow that the believer is loopy.

That said, I think dragons were real, and are still present today, in some hidden manner. And no, I have no proof to substantiate this. There have been many theories postulated on these boards (some better than others) but we would not have proof until a dragon sat down for a news interview...

that would be one very interesting news story, I wonder how most people would react

The Chinese did indeed train and use dragons as beasts of burden. That is not only in their histories, but their records as well. I find it more unbelievable that dragons are considered a complete myth. Having said that i doubt very much a dragon was the Hebrew god Yahweh was a dragon. I will admit i have not fully read your massive thread on this subject mostly because i don't have the time, but i have read the bible and Yahweh being a dragon to my mind isn't implied. What parts of it i have read imply that the Jewish religion was adopted from Cannanite and other sources, which might i point out, is only to be believed if the current evolutionary time scale is to be trusted. If the world is only ten thousand years old however as stated in the Torah, then this theory goes out the window. However this thread isn't about this topic and if i decide to add my two cents in, i will head on over to your massive thread and post there.

Most of the Dragons throughout history have started with an association to water, you are completely correct and there are creatures who live in the water off the coast of Asia that rather look like chinese dragons. I find the subject fascinating. I do not think dragons were intelligent however. At least not on the order of humans. They may very well have been clever in the way a dog is clever, but i don't think there is much beyond that.

Your only problem seems to be that I don't believe that ancient myths amount to much. But it is what it is. I am trying to help you understand about people that don't believe certain things. (I called you immature because you assumed I am not open-minded). I am open-minded, but I have seen the 'evidence' and myths and I just don't see much to it. I see plenty of explanations for the myths, both in the natural world and in the human psyche. If I didn't think that the naturalistic explanations where good enough, I might be more towards your position. BTW, my first post, though you or others might not like it, still holds true as an accurate description of this thread.

Disregarding the last post...

@ Kanji...
I've never heard of the Chinese training dragon's for beast of burden, but thats extremely interesting, if you have any links to anything more I can read to get more indepth I'm very interested. I look forward to learning more.

WHY...do you think it wont happen>>?

what would you do?

most will do this.

I'm sorry @ red rum, I didn't mean to disregard your last post, I was disregarding bball's post but I guess I left my browser open too long and you posted before I did...

And your right, I believe, well most will probably do it, not all...

There were never links to it, but i read about it in a book that took a look at dinosaurs and how they fit into history as presented by creationism. I honestly don't remember the name of the book but one section of it focused on the Chinese dragon myth, and although the great dragon that is popular in myth, (snake like with antlers and legs) was a divine being, there were many lesser sorts of dragons, what we call dinosaurs today, that were indeed used as beasts of burden. You can see much of this depicted in the art and pottery of the day. There is art depicting people riding dragons, and dragons pulling carts, Even dragons plowing fields. As the landscape was changed, the use of dragons fell away to the use of more traditional creatures that were easier to keep and were more suited to the changing climate.

My answer is easy and simple, this is what we're doing right now, and only time will provide the answer. Relax, it's all gonna come down one day

I think those pictures aren't meant to be taken seriously. My guess is that people painted pictures of dragons as beasts of burden to show man's dominance over other living things. The dragons are just there because when someone thinks of dragons, they think of great powerful beasts and what better way to show dominance than dominating a powerful beast. In other words, it's symbolic and not to be taken literally.

unfortunately most people would react in such a way, a few though think dragons are awesome

Awesome? This thread is full of nonsense, no credibilitiy, no links, just "Oh, I read a book somewhere, cant remember the book though"!!

Supply some material for the rest of us at UM to actually look at, not just some incredulous flight of fancy

^agreed.

I must seriously question your information abuot dragons being "beasts of burden". They were GODS. If the Dragons were angry, they might kill hundreds of thousands of people in great floods, or so the people believed. When I said "dragons gave people rides", they did it as a reward, not because they were controlled by man. Dragons in nearly every early culture were considered gods and were believed wise, but subject to bouts of anger which could mean devastating consequences for mankind, which is why, also in every culture, they were usually given sacrifices and presents to keep them happy.

Yahweh is no different. He demanded the first born offspring both human and animal from every Hebrew household, and there is one account of him being given 32 Midianite virgins. Besides eating animals, and humans, Yahweh is described in the Bible flying with wings, spewing fire from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils, blocking rivers, and has a love of gold. In fact, the Bible explains it is possible to buy you child back before it is eaten, and does so in very great detail, with a sliding pay scale based on the size/nutritional value of the person. And there is only one idol Yahweh ever ordered to be made and worshipped, and it was the brazen, fiery flying serpent, and it was worshipped the whole time Israel and Judah prospered.... and shortly after it was destroyed disasters began.

But understand I am not saying God is a dragon, but that each ancient culture had dragon "watcher". My upcoming book on this subject explains everything in detail, but you can learn more by going to the Spirituality, religions and beliefs section and read my post, "Is the Biblical Yahweh actually a dragon?"

Who said this thread was meant to be a place of proof for the existence of dragons, if you read my first post I was simply supplying an idea; that most of these cryptids were thought up and passed out throughout cultures and I believe that most if not all were started because of some sort of truth.

Then tell us this truth! Where you read it, which cultures, etc

About dragons in China, they were geologically isolated for thousands of years. So when did they first come up with the idea of dragons? or what was it that started them on dragons?
and since we really don't know, there might be dragons but then again, there might not be.

i read a good "fictonal" book about dinos and people working together

Dinotopia Created by artist and author James Gurney

to me it had some truth and higher meaning i did

not understand at the time, now i think it was

from records of alteans by a enlightment

http://www.dinotopia.com/new-journal.html

Is that journal supposed to be real?

I'd like to find a copy if so.

Ummmm... Dinotopia is an illustrated children's fantasy book. beautiful art, though.

it was also a miniseries

ahhh..damn i was all excited about findin it lol